[Split] Discussion on hand creature limit and gamer skill

[Metal Gear Rex]

Also, it allows the faster clicking gamers (i.e. "twitch gamers") to gain an advantage (in an RTS, no less), and those fast clicking players will still be fast enough to create a lot of clutter once they familiarise themselves with the GUI, so as far as solutions go it's a pretty poor bandaid.

On the subject of the 8 Hand Limit, no I don't think it is balanced when it comes to stopping a Player from dropping huge armies all at once. Anyone who's smart can abuse the pause option get around that anyways. I know it was definately possible in both DK1 and DK2. It also adds an advantage to the Hero Side as they have smaller numbers.

However, an 8 Hand Limit does offer more balance compared to DK2's 64 Hand Limit. There's other aspects of the game that it effects other than battles. Let's use the prison for example. In DK2, all you need is a 3x3 Prison. Using a 3x3 Prison, you can gain up to 66 Prisoners at one time if you wanted to.

Having such a large Hand limit does offer other perks that are quite abusable. Therefore, I think a smaller hand limit should be in place in order to prevent this kind of abuse.

[MeinCookie]

12-18 hand limit would be nice. Enough to withdraw/deploy decent numbers of creatures as required, not so exploitable... and I always felt it was really annoying moving large amounts of gold in DK 1.

[Metal Gear Rex]

12-18 hand limit would be nice. Enough to withdraw/deploy decent numbers of creatures as required, not so exploitable... and I always felt it was really annoying moving large amounts of gold in DK 1.

I don't think there's enough drawback to remove the Prison Abuse. Normally you don't have too many Prisoners at one point in time either, so 12-18 Hand Limit would still be signficiantly abusable.

As for gold, I do recall there were plans so you could pick up practically unlimited amounts of Gold. Units are the ones that will be effected by the Hand Limit. (And possibly certain other things such as chickens)

[Mothrayas]

What Prison Abuse? Holding prisoners in the hand because the prison is too small? I don't see that as much of an exploit, it saves you from building a slightly larger Prison at the cost of having your hand full, limiting doing other stuff.

EDIT: Also,

On the subject of the 8 Hand Limit, no I don't think it is balanced when it comes to stopping a Player from dropping huge armies all at once. Anyone who's smart can abuse the pause option get around that anyways. I know it was definately possible in both DK1 and DK2.

How do you intend to pause the game in multiplayer?

[Metal Gear Rex]

What Prison Abuse? Holding prisoners in the hand because the prison is too small? I don't see that as much of an exploit, it saves you from building a slightly larger Prison at the cost of having your hand full, limiting doing other stuff.

In DK2, all you need is a 3x3 Prison. Using a 3x3 Prison, you can gain up to 66 Prisoners at one time if you wanted to.

Having such a large Hand limit does offer other perks that are quite abusable. Therefore, I think a smaller hand limit should be in place in order to prevent this kind of abuse.

EDIT: Also,


How do you intend to pause the game in multiplayer?

That was more directed at single player gameplay, obviously.

[Mothrayas]

That was more directed at single player gameplay, obviously.

It's not an issue in singleplayer because in Hero maps balance is entirely different anyway and it's not as much an issue, and in Keeper maps, the AI would just as well do something to the same effect anyway. Plus, if you have to abuse pause to do this to defeat a singleplayer level, that's just sad.

Multiplayer is where the problem resides, if without pause it cannot be done there's no problem anymore.

[Metal Gear Rex]

It's not an issue in singleplayer because in Hero maps balance is entirely different anyway and it's not as much an issue, and in Keeper maps, the AI would just as well do something to the same effect anyway. Plus, if you have to abuse pause to do this to defeat a singleplayer level, that's just sad.

Multiplayer is where the problem resides, if without pause it cannot be done there's no problem anymore.

Never said anything about a need to pause abuse in order to beat a stage, in fact I doubt it really will even help a Player beat a stage. I was merely adding onto some ways where a Player could work around the 8 Hand Limit.

Also, you must be forgetting the problem that Funderbuck stated.

Also, it allows the faster clicking gamers (i.e. "twitch gamers") to gain an advantage (in an RTS, no less), and those fast clicking players will still be fast enough to create a lot of clutter once they familiarise themselves with the GUI, so as far as solutions go it's a pretty poor bandaid.

This is the true problem that exists in both Single Player and Multiplayer.

[Mothrayas]

Also, it allows the faster clicking gamers (i.e. "twitch gamers") to gain an advantage (in an RTS, no less), and those fast clicking players will still be fast enough to create a lot of clutter once they familiarise themselves with the GUI, so as far as solutions go it's a pretty poor bandaid.

This is the true problem that exists in both Single Player and Multiplayer.

Skills are bad? NOOOOO, CURSE YOU GAMER SKILLS!

[Metal Gear Rex]

Skills are bad? NOOOOO, CURSE YOU GAMER SKILLS!

...you really don't see his point nor the problem he pointed out, do you?

I think you may be making a misconception there, the choice to restrict the max amount of holding creatures to 8 is not to go back to DK1's technological limitations. It was for balance purposes. Having an unlimited amount of creatures holdable at once makes it too easy to instantly drop an entire army of creatures on any one spot, which would easily cause a lot of clutter when attacking an opponent. To find a solution to this issue, it was proposed to limit the max amount of holding creatures, simply because it's an easy fix to the issue.

You stated that the reason why WftO had adopted the 8 Hand Limit was because it was for balancing purposes, being as it prevented a Player from dropping an entire army all at once.

Also, it allows the faster clicking gamers (i.e. "twitch gamers") to gain an advantage (in an RTS, no less), and those fast clicking players will still be fast enough to create a lot of clutter once they familiarise themselves with the GUI, so as far as solutions go it's a pretty poor bandaid.

He argued that that isn't a very good reason for implimenting the 8 Hand Limit because it didn't stop a Player from dropping an army at once. Saying it requires skill does not make it "balanced" either. That's like calling chain grabs from SSB balanced because they require a lot of skill to pull off. And I have to agree with Funderbunk that this is a poor solution for this problem.

[Mothrayas]

That's like calling chain grabs from SSB balanced because they require a lot of skill to pull off.

What, you mean they aren't balanced?

I suppose we have different standards of what is "balanced" then.

(Unless you were talking about chaingrab infinites, which is a different case entirely)