Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

[Metal Gear Rex]

So I'm attempting to make some kind of DK2 patch with better balance. I tried this before and I ended up giving up, but now I desire to have a second attempt. To accomplish this patch, I will change the configurations of various things within the Editor, then save the global data so that it can be applied to any map by renaming the file. I will not touch Level Variables (So I cannot adjust the growths of stats, for example) because that will not be saved to the global data. I also cannot technically add any new type of Creature Spell, only modify existing ones to make them new. The reason is because this runs into problems when trying to play Multiplayer.

At the moment, I have yet to touch anything in the editor but am merely taking notes for how I will change things. So far, I have ideas for all the Units written down, but nothing written (Although I do have ideas) for anything else. I'm posting this to get some feedback to see what others think of some of these changes while I work towards thinking out more changes.

Here's a few things to keep in mind. I will probably modify the Fear/Threat stats so that only Imps flee from battle and that other Creatures will not flee except when at low health or when facing a Fear Trap. (Unless they are fearless of course) Stunning will be removed for all Units except for the Black Knight and Bile Demon, for balancing purposes.

I have the Units separated into four types. Melee Fighters, Support Units, The Big Four/Great Duo, and Other. The former two should be pretty self explanatory. Other refers to Units who have purposes and usage outside of Battle. The Big Four/Great Duo refers to some kind of "Elite" or higher tier set of classes. These Units will be harder to obtain, manage, and train to the point where you probably won't want more than a couple.

Creatures

GOBLIN
WARLOCK
FIREFLY
TROLL
DARK ELF
SKELETON
DARK MISTRESS
SALAMANDER
ROGUE
BILE DEMON
VAMPIRE
BLACK KNIGHT
THE MAIDEN
DARK ANGEL

Melee Fighters
GOBLIN: Very speedy yet otherwise rounded and basic Unit to use. Trains very fast and is very easy to maintain. Gets Haste at Level 5.
SALAMANDER: Speedy and a bit weaker than Goblins but possesses ranged capabilities to weaken targets before fighting up close. Fire Spit at Level 3, Fireball at Level 6, and Fire Bomb at Level 9. Can walk on lava giving it more terrain advantage compared to Goblins.
SKELETON: Glass Cannon Type Unit, easy to kill but deals a lot of damage. Gets Lightning at Level 6.
BILE DEMON: Tank Unit, Very Slow and Has Horrid Stun Time. Fart at Level 4.
ROGUE: Possesses some significant combat ability but overall lesser than a Goblin in terms of Health and Attack Power. Has (Nerfed Time) Invisibility at Level 4 and again at Level 7.

Support Units
WARLOCK: Has a more general focus of abilities. Has Fireball at Level 1, Heal at Level 3, and Firebomb at Level 6. The most vulnerable out of all support Units.
DARK ELF: Focuses entirely on damage to the enemy. Has Bolt at Level 1, Guided Bolt at Level 4, and Knives at Level 7. The most tankish out of all Support Units.
DARK MISTRESS: Focuses more on stunning or immobolizing the enemy. Has Lightning at Level 3, Haste at Level 5, and Freeze at Level 8. The fastest out of all support Units.

The Big Four
DARK ANGEL: The Power of The Big Four. Not very good Health yet possesses extremely deadly offense. Has (Buffed) Disruption at Levels 5, 8, and 10.
BLACK KNIGHT: The Tank of The Big Four. Very powerful Melee Fighter with great Health and Attack. He is vulnerable to being stunned and is incredibly slow without any other abilities.
VAMPIRE: The Support of The Big Four. Not very Effective in Melee Fighting due to low Health and barely decent Attack Power but possesses Drain at Level 4, Slow at Level 6, and Tornado at Level 8 which makes him a strong support Unit. He also can resurrect so he doesn't need to worry about dying as much.
THE MAIDEN: The Uniqueness of The Big Four. Average in terms of fighting capabilities but possesses very powerful and unique spells such as Freeze, Poison, and possibly some kind of Fear Spell.

Other
TROLL: Best Manufacturer but the Worst fighter ever. Has Grenade at Level 5 if you care to use him in battle.
FIREFLY: Very effective scout yet not so good in battle. Can serve as a miniature support Unit with Fireball at Level 4 and Tornado at Level 7.

Heroes

DWARF
THIEF
KNIGHT
GUARD
WIZARD
GIANT
ELVEN ARCHER
MONK
FAIRY
ROYAL GUARD
LORD OF THE LAND

Melee Fighters
KNIGHT: Very well rounded Unit though is slightly weaker than The Black Knight in terms of Health and Attack Power. He does possess Heal Self at Level 6, however.
GUARD: Tank-type of Unit though doesn't have as much Health (or possibly equal Health) as the Knight. Has inferior Attack Power but he's a bit faster and possesses Protect at Level 5. At Level 8, he obtains Invulnerability. (Very brief effect)
GIANT: Very powerful Heavy Hitter. He's not as easy to kill as a Skeleton but he's incredibly slow and lacks any abilities. He possesses the most damaging attack power out of all standard Units. He can walk on lava, meaning no terrain can stop him.
THIEF: Not as effective in battle as the Rogue but is a much better Thief Unit. He's faster yet weaker. He possesses Haste at Level 2, (slightly nerfed) Invisibility at Level 4, and Critical (New ability, only used at close range and deals damage equal to Thief's Level 10 Attack Times two) at Level 9.

Support Units
WIZARD: Similar to the Warlock in that he has a general focus on support abilities, except he's much stronger but obtains Heal later. One other difference is that he's more vulnerable compared to the Warlock due to his lower speed and Health. He has Magic Missile (Stronger Fireball basically) at Level 1, Firebomb at Level 3, and Great Heal (Stronger Heal obviously) at Level 6.
ELVEN ARCHER: Slightly weaker than the Dark Elf in terms of Health and Damage but is MUCH faster, in terms of attack speed and also movement speed. He has Guiding Arrow at Level 1, Haste at Level 4, and Chicken Arrow (Almost as strong as Knives) at Level 6.
MONK: Focuses entirely on buffing support. He possesses Great Heal at Level 1, Haste Other at Level 3, and Invulnerability at Level 6. He doesn't have much Health but has pretty decent Attack Power. Leveling him up beyond 6 is good for making him a Vampire Slayer.
FAIRY: Focuses entirely on powerful support abilities. She is incredibly weak and can get one-shotted easily. She has Thunder (Stronger Lightning) at Level 3, Hailstorm at Level 5, and Super Firebomb at Level 8.

The Great Duo
LORD OF THE LAND: The Big Guy. He's essentially a buffed up Knight to make him a powerful boss. He has Protect Self at Level 3, Heal Self at Level 6, and Haste at Level 9.
ROYAL GUARD: Essentially a buffed up Guard to make him an incredibly powerful foe. He obtains Protect at Level 3 and Invulnerability at Level 7.

Other
DWARF: A combat Imp. Although a bit slower, he possesses some mean fighting abilities and has pretty good Health, making him harder to kill. He also can mine through reinforced walls like they were nothing.

Elite Creatures

Elite Goblin: GRUBB
A Goblin that is extraordinarily fast. He doesn't deal more damage per hit but attacks more often, adding up damage. He isn't too different otherwise. Has Haste at Level 4 and Fireball at Level 7.

Elite Firefly: BZZZT
A very fast Firefly that also is a little better in battle. He has Freeze at Level 5 and Hailstorm at Level 8.

Elite Troll: KNUD
A Troll that is incredibly fast in the Workshop, but has a short temper making him harder to control and manage properly. He has Grenade at Level 4 and again at Level 8.

Elite Salamander: FURNACE
A Salamander that focuses more on being a Support Fighter rather than an Melee Fighter. He's actually a bit weaker in terms of Health and Attack compared to a normal Salamander, but possesses greater Spells that more than make up for it. Fireball at Level 1, Fire Bomb at Level 5, and Inferno at Level 8.

Elite Warlock: ALMERIC
A Warlock with similar yet still different support compared to a standard Warlock. He possesses Fireball at Level 1, Protect Other at Level 2, and Freeze at Level 6.

Elite Dark Elf: ZENOBIA
A Dark Elf that is incredibly slow and immobile, but has deadly attack power and increased Health. She possessed Chicken Arrow at Level 1, Chicken Arrow again at Level 3, and Knives at Level 6.

Elite Bile Demon: BLOZ
A Bile Demon that has more Health in trade for less Attack Power. He's slightly slower but has not only Fart at Level 1 but also Gas Missile at Level 5. He still suffers from Stuns such as any other Bile Demon.

Elite Rogue: GERVAISE
A Rogue that has the same standard Health and Attack but also the Abilities and Speed of a Thief. He requires a high payday.

Elite Dark Mistress: DOMINIQUE
A tougher version of the Dark Mistress who can take more damage in addition to being able to return it. She fights up close instead of far away, and possesses Lightning at Level 2, Thunder at Level 5, and Hailstorm at Level 9.

Elite Skeleton: BANE
He has more Attack Power and Thunder instead of Lightning, but is otherwise the same as a regular Skeleton.

Elite Black Knight: KALEB
Essentially a Juggernaut version of the Black Knight. He has even more Attack Power and Health but is slower and more vulnerable to being stunned.

Elite Vampire: KESSLER VAN DOOM
A special support unit that has Drain at Level 1, Skeleton Army at Level 4, and Skeleton Army again at Level 9. He has lower Health and Attack Power than a normal Vampire.

Elite Dark Angel: ZACHARIAH
He's a bit faster with slightly more Health than the average Dark Angel. He has a significant boost in Attack Power but he only has a single (Or perhaps none) Disruption Spell. He gets it at Level 7.

[Skarok]

Hey, that's nice! Always prefered DK2, though the balance (especially the black knights) were very badly balanced. For the second campaign I started to make, which was supposed to be like DD, I had to create a weird new balance myself to make the game harde. But I see you gave the hero knight the Heal spell like I did (though I'm sure it wasn't just 'Heal self'). I thought that was a messed up idea.
I like your idea to nerf the black knight, if someone would spam them now, you'd be able to win with a good combination of supporters and blitzers. Nice that the skeleton is more useful again and has lighting back. (Though it's still a shame that the AI is to stupid to let them die in the prison or convert them. And because there are no ghosts in DK2 he gets nothing mostly. A graveyard is one of the last rooms they build most of the time.) The rest of the units looks also nice, though I wouldn't make the rouge too much weaker than the goblin. If you fix the invisibillity bug and nerf this spell he'll still be very useful, so I don't know how that would exactly look. Hm, we'll see.

The hero knight with the heal abillity is also a nice idea, though it's very hard to get them down. (At least in the version I made, but I think I made him overall stronger.) Dwarf stayed kinda the same, though he seems like a better fighter now. The guard is nice, I always thought he should have protect and rebound. (I think I gave the normal guard protect and the royal one got something even better. Hm, don't know for sure.) Thief looks nice, the giant seems to be stronger. That's also good. The ellven archer looks also good to me, though you'd had to experiment with the speed a bit. It's hard to stop them from rushing into melee fighters, or flinch fast enough. Monk will be a pain in the ass.^^ The healing abillity is very annoying and makes battles against them harder, making them the perfect trap-slaughterers too.^^
The fairy should be weaker than most of the heroes, at that point I agree, but I think she should have two abbilities to stop enemies. Maybe replacing hailstorm with slow down? (Don't have all the spells in my mind roght now, though.) You made the LotL kinda like I did, though everytime I edited a map, I made him even stronger in abbilities. Needed some time, until I liked his states. You should play around a bit with that.

The elite creatures SUCK, SCRAP THEM COMPLETELY!!! >:) Aside from the units, are you also planning on changing the stats of some rooms? And then I'd have a request; if your patch is finished, could I intergrate it into one of my campaigns? Like I said, I tried a patch myself there, but I think it's incredible messed up.

edit: AND WHERE'S MY PIE!?!?!?!?!?

[Metal Gear Rex]

But I see you gave the hero knight the Heal spell like I did (though I'm sure it wasn't just 'Heal self'). I thought that was a messed up idea.

The hero knight with the heal abillity is also a nice idea, though it's very hard to get them down. (At least in the version I made, but I think I made him overall stronger.)

The Heal Spell was an idea I took from DK1. He's technically a bit weaker in stats compared to the Black Knight but he doesn't suffer from being stunned as much. (Maybe) However, he's a perfectly good example of how the Heroes are supposed to be stronger than the Creatures. The fact that a standard Hero is comparable to one of The Big Four definitely means something.

I like your idea to nerf the black knight, if someone would spam them now, you'd be able to win with a good combination of supporters and blitzers.

A better idea would be to utilize Dark Mistresses and the Lightning Spell. (if fighting defensively) Their stunning support will really tear the Black Knights apart.

The problem with attempting to spam The Big Four in general is that they train too slowly, leaving the Player vulnerable early on in the game because of a lower leveled army. Their requirement of high Pay will also make it harder for a Player to keep up with them if there's too many especially. This will force him to explore frequently for Gold, which can in return have terrible consequences if he encounters an enemy and his forces are not strong enough to deal with them.

The rest of the units looks also nice, though I wouldn't make the rouge too much weaker than the goblin. If you fix the invisibillity bug and nerf this spell he'll still be very useful, so I don't know how that would exactly look. Hm, we'll see.

The Goblin is designed to be a fighter while the Rogue is designed to be both a scout and a fighter. At Level 1, Goblins are better. But once the Rogue gets Invisibility (twice), he'll become a better fighter.

I cannot change the way Invisibility functions. However I can change the effect and recharge time very easily.

Dwarf stayed kinda the same, though he seems like a better fighter now.

He has more Health to strengthen one advantage he has over the Imp, which is simply being harder to kill and thus harder to lose during surprise attacks. Unfortunately, that's not as much of an advantage as it would be in DK1 due to Imps being less valuable in DK2. And I cannot change that at all due to the data that relates to experience from mining to be stored within the Level Variables.

The guard is nice, I always thought he should have protect and rebound. (I think I gave the normal guard protect and the royal one got something even better. Hm, don't know for sure.)

There is no Rebound in DK2.

the giant seems to be stronger. That's also good.

He's not going to be the tank he used to be but he'll still possess great offensive power. He also won't be able to manufacture anymore. That was really stupid. DK2 made the Bile Demon and Giants to be counterparts (and effectively ruined the Troll in the process) just because they were both big and therefore stupid, thus the same. It also caused people to compare the two a lot in DK1, despite the fact that they were technically opposites. (Tank and Heavy Hitter)

The ellven archer looks also good to me, though you'd had to experiment with the speed a bit. It's hard to stop them from rushing into melee fighters, or flinch fast enough.

The Elven Archer isn't going to run up in Melee Range.

Monk will be a pain in the ass.^^ The healing abillity is very annoying and makes battles against them harder, making them the perfect trap-slaughterers too.^^

Well he's a Healer. Healers are always annoying in my experience. (Unless they suck)

The fairy should be weaker than most of the heroes, at that point I agree, but I think she should have two abbilities to stop enemies. Maybe replacing hailstorm with slow down? (Don't have all the spells in my mind roght now, though.)

The Fairy's usage is based on her usage in DK1. Fragile and cute but a magical beast in combat.

You made the LotL kinda like I did, though everytime I edited a map, I made him even stronger in abbilities. Needed some time, until I liked his states. You should play around a bit with that.

The extra abilities are designed to make the later Lords a more challenging opponent.

The elite creatures SUCK, SCRAP THEM COMPLETELY!!! >:)

I did not listen to an unused speech that involved Raksha moaning with pleasure while attempting to search for information relating to the elites just to scrap them.

I can see you changed your post. But I'll respond to your mention of Kaleb and Zachariah anyways. Kaleb will be slower and more vulnerable to stunning to balance him, and Zachariah has less Disruption meaning he'll charge into Melee sooner, meaning he'll probably get attacked and potentially slaughtered sooner.

Aside from the units, are you also planning on changing the stats of some rooms?

If they require change to balance them, then yes.

And then I'd have a request; if your patch is finished, could I intergrate it into one of my campaigns? Like I said, I tried a patch myself there, but I think it's incredible messed up.

As long as you do not claim it as your own and give proper credit, then that is fine. I'm not making this patch and this thread just so I can refuse to give it to anybody.

edit: AND WHERE'S MY PIE!?!?!?!?!?

I need to release the patch first. Be patient.

[Skarok]

A better idea would be to utilize Dark Mistresses and the Lightning Spell. (if fighting defensively) Their stunning support will really tear the Black Knights apart.

Yeah, I meant the dark mistress with blitzers. From what I can remember she was a blitzer class unit.

The problem with attempting to spam The Big Four in general is that they train too slowly, leaving the Player vulnerable early on in the game because of a lower leveled army. Their requirement of high Pay will also make it harder for a Player to keep up with them if there's too many especially. This will force him to explore frequently for Gold, which can in return have terrible consequences if he encounters an enemy and his forces are not strong enough to deal with them.

That's good. At least the AI will be better off, since they rarely spam one creature type.

There is no Rebound in DK2.

I know, I just thought it would fit him. Too bad they took that abillity out.

The Elven Archer isn't going to run up in Melee Range.

Good luck with that, the creature AI is often really stupid. I cant recall a level where a supporter unit didn't try to run through an army of melee fighters.

The extra abilities are designed to make the later Lords a more challenging opponent.

Yeah, but I'd also increase his states. Aside from his strength, he's like a normal knight if I recall corectely. Not that challenging.

I did not listen to an unused speech that involved Raksha moaning with pleasure while attempting to search for information relating to the elites just to scrap them.

What the hell? You're serious?

I can see you changed your post. But I'll respond to your mention of Kaleb and Zachariah anyways. Kaleb will be slower and more vulnerable to stunning to balance him, and Zachariah has less Disruption meaning he'll charge into Melee sooner, meaning he'll probably get attacked and potentially slaughtered sooner.

Well, I changed my mind since I hated elites anyways. But that's good then. They just shouldn't be the immortal tanks.

If they require change to balance them, then yes.

Some do, in my opinion.

As long as you do not claim it as your own and give proper credit, then that is fine. I'm not making this patch and this thread just so I can refuse to give it to anybody.

NO CREDIT FOR ANYONE!!!11!oneone!!purple!1!!!1
Yeah, it's obvious that I'd give you a credit.

I need to release the patch first. Be patient.

But you're sleeping all the time!!!


And dungeon keepers are capitalists I noticed. Allied keepers are corporatists. Hmmm....

[Metal Gear Rex]

Good luck with that, the creature AI is often really stupid. I cant recall a level where a supporter unit didn't try to run through an army of melee fighters.

From my experience, units usually don't try and charge through them like that. There are exceptions of course. Such as when a Creature is running because they're scared or Call to Arms has been cast. However, with adjustments to the Fear/Threat values, that won't really be a problem. And I also can change Call to Arms so that Creatures will not ignore enemies as they go. (Or I think I can anyways) Creatures only fight enemies within a 10 square radius of the Flag. How do I know? The Call to Arms spell data has a 10 there.

Yeah, but I'd also increase his states. Aside from his strength, he's like a normal knight if I recall corectely. Not that challenging.

But of course. It was really stupid how similar a lot of the Units were statistically.

Did you know that the highest pay of any Creature (Not including the King) is 750? Also note that the Goblin's Pay is 500...

What the hell? You're serious?

Yes. There's an unused speech with Raksha that says "Oh yes, oh YES! It feels so good to be triumph!" The way she sounds at first makes it sound as if she's moaning in pleasure. And taken out of context (and removing everything after "good") makes it sound horribly wrong. I actually didn't hear it this time around but I have heard it before by surprise. Luckily, nobody else was around at the time or they could have gotten the wrong idea. (Especially considering how loud she says it too, god she's a real screamer I bet)

Well, I changed my mind since I hated elites anyways. But that's good then. They just shouldn't be the immortal tanks.

My attempt with the Elites, as you may have guessed, is to make them uniquely different so that they're worth using or mentioning. They also should be generally a bit stronger/useful but would require more pay/training in return.

[Skarok]

From my experience, units usually don't try and charge through them like that. There are exceptions of course. Such as when a Creature is running because they're scared or Call to Arms has been cast. However, with adjustments to the Fear/Threat values, that won't really be a problem.

Well, I often had the problem that they didn't give a fuck that there were enemies in their way. And they were on the hero side for that, therefore no CTA was used. But I think the fear thing is also a problem. Instead of going backwards and shooting, they just made a few steps backwards or rushed into their enemies. Very bad handled imo.

And I also can change Call to Arms so that Creatures will not ignore enemies as they go. (Or I think I can anyways) Creatures only fight enemies within a 10 square radius of the Flag. How do I know? The Call to Arms spell data has a 10 there.

I think I considered to do that too. I wanted to give it a 200 tile radious, so that it would be like DK1 that every creature would fight enemies in its way.

Did you know that the highest pay of any Creature (Not including the King) is 750? Also note that the Goblin's Pay is 500...

Wow, didn't knew that the pay value was handled that bad. Really, why did they changed things which worked perfectly in DK1?

Yes. There's an unused speech with Raksha that says "Oh yes, oh YES! It feels so good to be triumph!" The way she sounds at first makes it sound as if she's moaning in pleasure. And taken out of context (and removing everything after "good") makes it sound horribly wrong. I actually didn't hear it this time around but I have heard it before by surprise. Luckily, nobody else was around at the time or they could have gotten the wrong idea. (Especially considering how loud she says it too, god she's a real screamer I bet)

The hell. Glad they took that out, Raksha had the best voice actor imo (If I think of Nemesis it's hard not to vomit) and such a line would've ruined it.^^ But seriously, someone needs to make these hidden audio files audible ingame. I think there were a lot of mentor lines they simply took out for no reason. (Hell, some jokes are even better than the one's he repeats all the time)

My attempt with the Elites, as you may have guessed, is to make them uniquely different so that they're worth using or mentioning. They also should be generally a bit stronger/useful but would require more pay/training in return.

Yeah, that would be great. I also think there are some mentor lines about the elites, looked like they should already be in the first version of DK2.

[Metal Gear Rex]

Well, I often had the problem that they didn't give a fuck that there were enemies in their way. And they were on the hero side for that, therefore no CTA was used. But I think the fear thing is also a problem. Instead of going backwards and shooting, they just made a few steps backwards or rushed into their enemies. Very bad handled imo.

When Heroes get scared, they literally just stand there because they have nowhere to run. Very bad design. More so the reason to get rid of Fear.

Wow, didn't knew that the pay value was handled that bad. Really, why did they changed things which worked perfectly in DK1?

Now do you see yet another reason why a lot of people hate DK2? In this example, it shows how very little the personalities are fleshed out. They're all kind of the same. It's incredibly boring.

The hell. Glad they took that out, Raksha had the best voice actor imo (If I think of Nemesis it's hard not to vomit) and such a line would've ruined it.^^ But seriously, someone needs to make these hidden audio files audible ingame. I think there were a lot of mentor lines they simply took out for no reason. (Hell, some jokes are even better than the one's he repeats all the time)

Thanks to that speech file, we now know more about Raksha's character. Hurray.

I heard Nemesis' voice again. He sounds... horrible. It was painful, but in return, I won the queen of the Dark Elves, Zenobia.

Yeah, that would be great. I also think there are some mentor lines about the elites, looked like they should already be in the first version of DK2.

I know about those. That's why I was listening to the speech files to begin with and why I mentioned Raksha. I know where it mentions every Creature aside from Grubb and Furnace (Though I've heard them before, I believe they're in Level 5 and 11 respectfully, didn't want to go to 11 because of Raksha though) and I also know that Bloz is never mentioned, for some reason.

DK2 really has a lot of hate for Bile Demons I've noticed. They're most vulnerable to stunning and it prevents them from doing the thing they're designed to do, which is tanking. It's just because they're fat. Always hating on the fat guy.

And yeah, I know that elites were originally going to be in the first version of DK2. In fact, even with the 1.3 version, the game can handle Elite Units perfectly fine. They just lack the texture. Obviously they were removed so that EA could get more money later on. Dicks.

[Skarok]

I heard Nemesis' voice again. He sounds... horrible. It was painful, but in return, I won the queen of the Dark Elves, Zenobia.

Well, it souded like he mastered the art of talking and gurgling at the same time. Or like someone shoved him soap down his throat.

[Hapuga]

Rex, u working with DK 1.7?

Nooooooo but the AI sucks there so big big time Why wont try those changes on 1.51 or at least 1.3?

[Metal Gear Rex]

Rex, u working with DK 1.7?

Nooooooo but the AI sucks there so big big time Why wont try those changes on 1.51 or at least 1.3?

I planned to be working with both 1.3 and 1.7. At the moment though, I'm forced to work with 1.3 as I cannot find my 1.7 DKII disk. (Or any of my DK1 disks) If I make the changes in an editor for a 1.3 DK2 folder, I believe they can easily be transferred over into the later versions so there's no problem there.