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Sire
August 19th, 2010, 14:42
Should Neutrals be allowed in WFTO? [Poll closes 2 September 2010]

Neutral Hostile: Units not aligned with anyone, they will attack any who comes near.
Neutral Passive: Units that either will not bother people unless provoked, or are rescueable (They can join you just be moving near them)

Adding Neutrals can bring more varied gameplay and help create better / varied maps. I know some may dislike the idea, but it may just be an optional feature, being included in bonus maps and a few skirmish and not be featured heavily in the campaign.

Metal Gear Rex
August 19th, 2010, 15:15
Should Neutrals be allowed in WFTO? [Poll closes 2 September 2010]

Neutral Hostile: Units not aligned with anyone, they will attack any who comes near.
Neutral Passive: Units that either will not bother people unless provoked, or are rescue able (They can join you just be moving near them)

Adding Neutrals can bring more varied gameplay and help create better / varied maps. I know some may dislike the idea, but it may just be an optional feature, being included in bonus maps and a few skirmish and not be featured heavily in the campaign.

I WAS going to say you should better explain it like how I did in that other thread from a gameplay perspective in order to get more votes but I don't think it is neccessary anymore ;P

A New Room
August 19th, 2010, 16:35
I just fear that toying too much with the DK formula could cause it to become slightly, if not heavily, unstable \:

kyle
August 19th, 2010, 16:54
We all do :) it should differ the gameplay that much, just adds a bit more into the game.

MeinCookie
August 20th, 2010, 11:04
Essentially we already had Hostile Neutrals in random heroes/hero creatures dotted around the map and we already had passive neutrals in the traditional neutral.

The only difference is that now we have proper Hostiles that have no side as intended and will go for heroes that encroach on their territory as well rather than seeming in league with them.

It is really just a second hero side and is a good move in my mind.

Metal Gear Rex
August 20th, 2010, 11:32
Essentially we already had Hostile Neutrals in random heroes/hero creatures dotted around the map and we already had passive neutrals in the traditional neutral.

The only difference is that now we have proper Hostiles that have no side as intended and will go for heroes that encroach on their territory as well rather than seeming in league with them.

It is really just a second hero side and is a good move in my mind.

That's what I said in that other topic... or something like that >.> just not as detailed :P And once again that is how I feel ;P

MeinCookie
August 20th, 2010, 13:31
I know, but I might as well say as much here. It was particularly directed at ANR, i guess. By doing this we aren't really changing DK all that much. Just streamlining a feature that is already there but could do with some improvement,

A New Room
August 20th, 2010, 20:49
Point taken, though there is still a very strong possibility that these hostile neutrals will get in the way more than anything.

MeinCookie
August 20th, 2010, 22:37
Only if an idiotic map-builder fills the map with them or the auto-map maker that some people are pushing for doesn't work properly.

I pretty much scrapped my suggestion for the Behemoth which only leaves only the Wyrm as a real monstrous neutral suggestion... which i assume would only be in the depths and "Hard" maps.

Evi
August 21st, 2010, 00:19
Point taken, though there is still a very strong possibility that these hostile neutrals will get in the way more than anything.

So, the Heroes that were once there that were supposed to get in the way... Um, I don't know where I'm going with this one.


Only if an idiotic map-builder fills the map with them or the auto-map maker that some people are pushing for doesn't work properly.

I pretty much scrapped my suggestion for the Behemoth which only leaves only the Wyrm as a real monstrous neutral suggestion... which i assume would only be in the depths and "Hard" maps.

It is possible to discuss where it can appear, like it can randomly appear at random times? :p

MeinCookie
August 22nd, 2010, 00:04
But if you have white as hero, black as agro neutral and muli-coloured flashing as passive neutral then you gain a sense of cohesion through out the entire game. If you suddenly have green neutrals and a black Keeper than it screws that up and you just don't know what to expect. If you want more sides than add the ability to have many more sides, but keep those sides fixed because that is DK and that works and keeps things cohesive.

Metal Gear Rex
August 22nd, 2010, 10:40
You really shouldn't be posting things like this without know what is even going on.


What if I do not want the white to be a white? What if I want to make a 1st person RPG and use different colors? What if I want to have 2 goods, but of different color? What if I want to play as a BLUE but not as a RED?

http://www.keeperklan.com/threads/1206-Keeper-colours

If you are not willing to read all that then don't bother continuing. Not to mention there are ideas of playing as the Heroes, considering how Sire is setting up the creatures, it seems extremely likely without any chances of backfire.

I, as well as quite a few other members, probably wouldn't want to be changing the Dungeon Keeper's forumula too much on its basic roots. We're simply expanding it as it is now, but with your suggestion there is also a problem. How are we going to be able to easily play other players' maps without much confusion on what is what? Your idea also limits us by making the player a specific color on each map, instead of a color he/she wants to be for the whole game.

There's probably a whole lot more you're missing Hapuga, you shouldn't suddenly arrive and criticise the first thing you see that you don't like. We're a lot farther than you think.

Mothrayas
August 22nd, 2010, 12:17
Does someone restrict you from putting white as good, red as evil, and all the other colors as intuitively logical?

You miss the point. Whenever you preset something and make it fixed, you will be stuck in a situation where your creativity is limited by mechanical structure of the game. That pisses me off greatly when I am working with different editors.

What if I do not want the white to be a white? What if I want to make a 1st person RPG and use different colors? What if I want to have 2 goods, but of different color? What if I want to play as a BLUE but not as a RED?

Think deeper, Meincookie. You are making maps, you should understand this.

Does having multicolor and black colors for neutrals and hostile neutrals respectively somehow prevent you from using every other color in existence
as (hero) Keeper? Do note, "neutral" is not a playable faction so it's alright to give them fixed colors.

MeinCookie
August 22nd, 2010, 14:10
I should also add to that that, irrespective of whether we have hero Keepers, the hero side should always be white or light grey maybe.

EDIT ~ If you add the ability to set the number of manipulate-able players/keepers/hero keepers up to say 12 (not that you would play with that many but it gives you options) then it isn't a problem if you have fixed neutral passive/ hero/neutral hostile teams with fixed neutral hostile team colours. Your vision for changing is fine, but neutral and hero sides should be fixed and unmoving.

MeinCookie
August 22nd, 2010, 14:20
Then you'll be making maps that don't fit cohesively with DK... If you don't want heroes than don't include them. But if you have 12 slots to play around with instead of DK 2s paltry 5 then it isn't an issue and that would include hero keepers. FIXED colours for non-playable teams has always been a fact in DK and it adds certain streamlined feel across the entire game.

MeinCookie
August 22nd, 2010, 14:35
That is fair enough... but what actually requires making the non-playable sides different colors? What could you possibly want to make that would require such? More-over, while i am a fan of great flexibility within the editor... do we need experimental game-types so elaborate and outlandish that it is no longer DK that you are playing?

If their is such an option it should be obscure as to discourage idiots or new players coming along and changing the colors just for the fun of it. If I'm playing maps I want it to be authentic DK unless it has a damn good reason not to be.

MeinCookie
August 22nd, 2010, 14:42
In my mind Hero Keepers count as a type of normal Keeper... thus if you have 12 Keeper Slots than you have as many as you want within that. I don't care what colour Keepers and Hero Keepers are... as long as Neutral Passive, Neutral Agresssive and the "Hero" side are fixed or hard to change.

Sire
August 22nd, 2010, 14:51
...If this continues to carry on, I'm getting rid of said posts.

A: Going off topic. This is about Neutrals, not the Editor. The Editor and Skirmish may have extremely customizable features, but that is for another thread and another time.
B: At least 1 page full of back and forth posting about the same subject. This is not a debate thread.

I am not saying either side is invalid. This is the wrong place to be posting them.