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Sire
February 28th, 2010, 18:25
Notice: Multiple Threads were merged into this one. Keep this in mind. The rule system didn't go into effect until Post 88.

This is the Public Input thread. Units, Rooms, and Spells will be discussed here. They were all merged to reduce clutter. It's pointless having a bunch of threads that no one posts in.

Will this make it harder to find each topic? Perhaps, but I'll deal with that.

Rules for posting input:
1: State which topic you are posting for in BOLD, RED, and in SIZE 4. [Stuff]
2: That is all.



DK 1 Creatures: DK I Heroes

Imp Tunneler
Fly Thief
Beetle Archer
Spider Dwarf
HellHound Barbarian
Troll Giant
Orc Wizard
Skeleton Priestess
Tentacle Samurai
Ghost Monk
Demon Spawn Fairy
Bile Demon Knight (Lord of the Land)
Warlock Avatar
Dark Mistress
Dragon
Vampire
Horned Reaper

* * *

DK 2 Creatures DK 2 Heroes

Bile Demon Dwarf
Black Knight Theif
Dark Angel Wizard
Dark Elf Guard
Dark Mistress Elven Archer
Firefly Royal Guard
Goblin Fairy
Horned Reaper Monk
Imp Knight
Maiden Giant
Rogue Lord of the Land
Salamander Stone Knight
Skeleton
Troll
Vampire
Warlock



* * *
Suggestions

Traps:
Reaper Trap spared (2 votes)

Creatures:
Archlich spared (3 votes)
Ogre spared (3 votes)
Succubus spared (2 votes)

Heroes:
Valkyrie spared(7 votes)
Juggernaut spared (4 votes)
Maiden spared (3 votes)

Neutrals:
Pixie spared (4 votes)
Giant Worm / Wyrm spared (3 votes)
Slime spared (2 votes)
Mercenaries spared (2 votes)

* * *

The below list is the proposed one as of September 14, 2010.


"(...)" units mean they do not exist as of yet.

Dungeon Keeper Classes [Sire]

Worker: Imp --- Dwarf Tunneller
Scout: Fly -- Thief
Basic Researcher: Warlock --- Wizard
Disruption: Spider --- Priestess
Trash (Mobs): Skeleton --- Fairy
Dark / Holy: Vampire --- Monk
Glass Cannon: Dark Mistress --- Samurai
Commander: Keeper --- Lord / Lady of the Land

Debatable Classes:

Basic Attacker: Demon Spawn --- (Squire?)
Basic Ranged: ??? --- Archer
Basic Manufacturer: Troll --- Dwarf Warrior? / (Blacksmith?)
Tank (Blocker): Bile Demon --- Giant
Advanced Attacker Orc - Barbarian / ???
Advanced Blocker Dragon? / Knight?
Powerful Unit: Horned Reaper --- ???
Supreme Commander: Horny? --- [Classified]

Others:

Basic Tank: Beetle --- Dwarf Warrior?
Upgradeable: Chaos Spawn --- (Squire)
Upgraded: Dragon --- Knight

Suggestions:

Support: Succubus? --- Maiden? / ???
Power / Versatility Archlich? --- Valkyrie? (One will require
revisions if this happens,
probably the Valkyrie.)

Neutrals:

Ghost (Obtained via failued torturing)
Pixie
Giant Worm [Wrym]
Slime
Giant Scorpion
Gremlin
Mercenaries

Unknown:

Juggernaut - He is a powerful tank , a grade above the Knight. Perhaps the
dragon or a gargoyle may be his adversary?
Dark Angel - A extremely powerful attack unit, but where's thy enemy's copy?
Goblin - As of now, this basic fighting unit have no place to go, although he
would be a nice addition to WFTO. (Neutral Hostile may also work for him...

Questionable:

Salamander - May be returned as a neutral hostile.
Hell Hound - May be returned as a neutral hostile.
Tentacle - May be returned as a neutral hostile
Ogre - May require reworking.
Succubus - May require reworking (But I want one in! :D)
Maiden - May require tweaking (Can be a counter to Succubus)
Dark Elf - May be replaced by something else, otherwise requires new model
and voicework. (I didn't like the DK II version)
Black Knight - May just be a skin for a converted Knight, nothing more.
Rogue - May just be a skin for a converted Thief, nothing more.

Under Discussion:

Gargoyle - One of the developers expressed interest in it. Perhaps he may be the
Juggernaut's counterpart?

Scrapped:

Maiden of the Nest - Spider takes its place
Guard - Can be replaced with something better
Royal Guard - Can be replaced with something better


Notice: Lists may be incomplete.

Currently, this is just a list of rooms for DK I and II.

For right now, just state corrections and which rooms you would like to see return. I'll organize and make stuff nice (as well as make the WTFO list) at a later date.

DK I Rooms

Dungeon Heart
Treasure Room (Treasury)
Lair
Hatchery
Training Room
Library
Bridge
Guard Post
Workshop
Prison
Torture Room
Barracks
Temple
Graveyard
Scavenger Room

DK II Rooms:

Casino
Wooden Bridge
Stone Bridge
Combat Pit
Dungeon Heart
Treasure Room (Treasury)
Lair
Hatchery
Training Room
Library
Workshop
Prison
Torture Room
Temple
Graveyard

[B]Notice: This list may be incomplete.

Currently, it's a simple list of DK I / II spells. Just post what spells you would like to see return. A more organized list and stuff will be done at a later date.

Spell Mechanic: Mana

DK I:

Create Imp
Must Obey
Sight of Evil
Call to Arms
Cave In
Heal Creature
Hold Audience
Lightning
Speed Creature
Protect
Conceal
Disease
Chicken
Destroy Walls
Armageddon

DK II

Pending...

QwentyJ
April 29th, 2010, 14:45
Sires' Edit: Please look in the post above for your information.

I've moved this and made it a sticky so that we can amend this list as to what we've discussed thusfar. I know that Sire's post was from February, but I've used it anyway and we can update the list.


Note that there weren't many ideas or spells that were created, thus there will be no need for another thread specifically for those. The Suggestion Cleanup Thread was for everything, it just so happens that we have more Creatures / Heroes / Neutrals around.

Also a quick question, will all the archived threads be able to be seen by the public? It would be wise if they still existed so that won't be that many copies of preexisting ideas.

Traps:
Reaper Trap spared (2 votes)

Creatures:
Archlich spared (3 votes)
Ogre spared (3 votes)
Succubus spared (2 votes)

Heroes:
Valkyrie spared(7 votes)
Juggernaut spared (4 votes)
Maiden spared (3 votes)

Neutrals:
Pixie spared (4 votes)
Giant Worm / Wyrm spared (3 votes)
Slime spared (2 votes)
Mercenaries spared (2 votes)

* * *
__________________

kyle
May 2nd, 2010, 21:31
So, my question is. Is sires list what creatures will be used in WTFO.

natchoguy
May 2nd, 2010, 22:36
it's as if Sire is the only one who decides everything, it's no fair! ):<

A New Room
May 2nd, 2010, 22:40
Those were just his suggestions, so I assume nothing is really decided until it is put to the poll.

Kopavel
May 2nd, 2010, 22:43
Those were just his suggestions, so nothing is really decided until that gets put to the poll.

Democracy, huh?
Kinda doubt It gonna work.

A New Room
May 2nd, 2010, 22:52
*shrug*

Metal Gear Rex
May 2nd, 2010, 22:57
Isn't it a purpose of filling certain shoes like Tank units and blocker units, etc.

Dragon/Bile Demon are nice tanks, Dwarf makes a good blocker due to his Protect and Rebound, but is no tank.

natchoguy
May 2nd, 2010, 23:17
we should classify all our units into groups to see if we have too much of one sort or not enough. then we could remove the ones which make the groups imbalanced

ex: tanks; blockers; support ;flanker; worker etc.

Metal Gear Rex
May 3rd, 2010, 00:04
Well looking at DK1 Creatures... (Since DK2 was just bad)

Each creature had some kind of role. I'll list the main reason here.

Horned Reaper: Perfect Melee

Skeleton: Expandable "Flanker"

Troll: Perfect Manufacturer

Dragon: Tank

Demon Spawn: Basic Melee?

Fly: Perfect/Early Scout

Dark Mistress: Perfect Support

Warlock: Damaging Support

Bile Demon: Tank

Imp: Worker

Beetle: Unknown
Lol, Food...

Vampire: Surviving Unit?
Well he lasts a long time, making him good for distractions

Spider: Strategic Unit
His set of spells make him very useful in the right hands, but risky

Hell Hound: Upgraded Scout

Ghost: Expandable Support/Perfect Stealth Unit
Depends on how you look at it. His drain makes him a good support, yet his Invisibility and lack of walking make him better at stealth than the Thief.

Tentacle: Average/Cheap/Strategic Melee/Blocker

Orc: Average/Cheap Melee/Blocker

What's so special about DK1 is that the Heroes could follow similar, yet not exact, unit types unlike DK2.


Wizard: Stand Alone Unit
He can handle himself easily, but I don't consider him trully a support unit, or at least not the best of his ability.

Barbarian: Average/Strategic Melee/Blocker
He's not as cheap as the Orc :P But also, if you take away the Speed Monster from the Orc, Barbarian wins, due to his higher dexterity. He's strategic, a bit, because he has more potential than the Orc. Give him Speed, and he wins.

Archer: Anti-Melee
He's a fast support unit, he's capable of getting away from Melee units and out of danger. Perfect for Giants.

Monk: Surviving Unit?
His only weakness is his lack of health but he somewhat fits a similar role to the Vampire.

Dwarf: Blocker
Protect/Rebound make him fit that role.

Knight: Upgraded Rounded Unit
Not just Rounded Unit, simply because he's too strong for that. He can handle most Melee and Support, making him very round.

Avatar: Final Boss
Lol, he doesn't fit much else.

Tunneller: Worker
If Tunnellers weren't so bugged, it is a personal preferance of which to use. Tunnellers work slower... but they're cheaper since they don't die so easily.

Priestess: Disrupter?
Following DL's info on her...

Giant: Upgraded Melee

Fairy: Perfect Support Unit
More or less. She makes a better support unit than any other creature due to her spells in particular being of extremly high damage, but she lacks defense.

Thief: Stealthy Scout

Samurai: "Perfect" Melee
Similar to the DM, but with Melee

Using this info as some kind of guidelines, we can find certain roles that creatures/heroes fit. This will surely help us find what we need. We're not limited to this list, may I remind you, but it is good as it is also in the Dungeon Keeper spirit. (Sorta)

With a little creativity, we could include more units while keeping a quality feeling, and not getting much of a quantity feeling.

PS: Some things I left out like researching for the Warlock, simply because it is like an extra.

Monsterbaby
May 6th, 2010, 10:02
This is: "Confirmed List"

So if some creatures STILL need to be discussed, remove them from the list, and make a new thread about it. The confirmed list, was the reason of having a list, where things are 100% sure of being ingame, so they can be worked on, and eventually not end up as wasted time, because they were planned to be removed due to dicussions. So I don't really see the idea of the "Confirmed List", when it keeps getting discussed. Then rather make a small list in the beginning, and what is on that list is 1000000000% sure to go ingame, no exceptions!

Currently, it has just turned into a confused mess again imo.

Metal Gear Rex
May 6th, 2010, 10:06
This is: "Confirmed List"

So if some creatures STILL need to be discussed, remove them from the list, and make a new thread about it. The confirmed list, was the reason of having a list, where things are 100% sure of being ingame, so they can be worked on, and eventually not end up as wasted time, because they were planned to be removed due to dicussions. So I don't really see the idea of the "Confirmed List", when it keeps getting discussed. Then rather make a small list in the beginning, and what is on that list is 1000000000% sure to go ingame, no exceptions!

Currently, it has just turned into a confused mess again imo.

You have a point there. But not to mention that this should be called "Sire's List" since that's pretty much what it is directed at. I hope the confirmed list doesn't end up like that, all up to one person. :eek:

Monsterbaby
May 6th, 2010, 10:09
Well, then Sire should take it outside the confirmed list, and make a new thread about it. It is annoying, that constantly when something HAS been planned, and wrapped up, it gets torn appart, rediscussed and so on.

In my oppinion, we need to REDO the Confirmed list! And everything which is being questioned should be REMOVED from the thread!

Monsterbaby
May 6th, 2010, 13:04
The thing is, it is not a confirmed list anymore, after it was edited!

Sire
May 6th, 2010, 20:40
If you insist, then they shall be removed...

dotted
May 6th, 2010, 21:28
The thing is, it is not a confirmed list anymore, after it was edited!
Well the issue isn't so much about this so called "confirmed list", imo the issue is that the lore is what is being discussed with complete disregard to gameplay. And it is simply too early to "confirm" anything, other than the few core creatures of which this would not be a DKish game is they were not included. This is more of a general observation rather than a comment on this thread alone.

To be honest this brainstorming needs to be thought over again, because it is just based on personal preference, you can just look at the OP for an example of this particular thought process:



Salamander: Scrap them. Demon Spawns and Dragons were better.
Hell Hound: I really didn't like these guys that much. Probably better off scrapped.
(Should not be interpreted as a slam against Sire)

Dont make the game fit the lore, make the lore fit the game - at least these are my personal thoughts.

natchoguy
May 6th, 2010, 22:09
what if we make a poll for each creature, it will take more time but more fair

dotted
May 6th, 2010, 22:11
what if we make a poll for each creature, it will take more time but more fair

And equally useless and wrong thinking

natchoguy
May 6th, 2010, 22:13
me or the statement?

dotted
May 6th, 2010, 22:32
me or the statement?

well the statement obviously

Hapuga
May 7th, 2010, 09:02
I agree with dotted. Until we have an opportunity to test these ideas on a basic engine there is not much to be discussed upon, especially with such vigor. How can you "confirm" something without actually seeing it acting and behaving ingame.

What I suggest for now is make two lists. 1st list - creatures that make a definite comeback. Original creatures only. 2nd list - any creatures that could be possibly added. No "confirmed" stuff, only "possible" stuff. No need to start holy wars on this topic before we have an actual chance to work with our ideas.

QwentyJ
May 8th, 2010, 17:58
The actual important post is the second post of the thread. With the new creatures we agreed to incorporate into the game. Really, I should rename the thread.

In any case, as we discuss what creatures from the previous 2 we want in, the we can see what we want.

Mothrayas
May 8th, 2010, 18:25
Definitive:

-Imp
-Bile Demon
-Troll
-Dark Mistress
-Vampire
-Skeleton
-Warlock

-Wizard
-Archer (normal or elven)
-Lord of the Land
-Giant
-Dwarf
-Monk
-Fairy

Probably

-Demon Spawn
-Dragon
-(Fire)Fly
-Spider
-Horned Reaper
-Goblin

-Tunneller
-Thief

Debatable

-Ghost
-Beetle
-Hellhound
-Black Knight
-Dark Angel
-Rogue
-Salamander

-Witch
-Samurai
-Avatar
-Barbarian
-Guard
-Royal Guard

Unlikely

-Maiden of the Nest



Here's what I think would be a good starting point - nothing but the first tier is set in stone, and I tried to be as unbiased as possible.

You may want to put this in the OP and edit if a majority of people disagrees with a creature/hero's placing.

natchoguy
May 8th, 2010, 20:00
Put horned reaper on definitive since we had a poll on how they will be used so logically it will be used

Duke Ragereaver
May 8th, 2010, 20:23
Put horned reaper on definitive since we had a poll on how they will be used so logically it will be used

I think it's more about the kind of Horned Reaper.

natchoguy
May 8th, 2010, 20:25
there is still going to be at least more than one

Metal Gear Rex
May 8th, 2010, 22:57
there is still going to be at least more than one

Not if we go with just the summon.


Blah blah blah creatures blah blah blah

Here's what I think would be a good starting point - nothing but the first tier is set in stone, and I tried to be as unbiased as possible.

You may want to put this in the OP and edit if a majority of people disagrees with a creature/hero's placing.

You left out the Knight. In DK2 the Knight is not the same as the Lord of the Land. And in DK1 it wasn't the Knight who was a definate Lord of the Land, but usually the case.

Pretty good but the only thing I think is inaccurate is the Fly and Thief. They're important units in both games, I don't think there's much a doubt of either or being in.

Fly is that basic explorer and the Thief is the enemy trying to take your gold.

Probably should be of creatures who weren't in both games, but are obviously well liked. Those two should be above that. Everything else there is fine execpt Tunneller.

Debatable is in question. I think Tunneller is considered debatable. Being a DK1 person like myself, I'm sure you'd want him in there as much as I do. But I've heard some different opinions about this...

MeinCookie
May 9th, 2010, 00:38
Small note... Dark Elf isn't on that list ;)

Oscar Langdon
July 13th, 2010, 17:36
the hell hounds are good you should keep them

Oscar Langdon
July 13th, 2010, 17:47
or werewolves could replace hell hounds or both of them stay or no werewolves or no werewolves and hellhounds
:dog:

PS sorry for the confusion :confused:

Mothrayas
July 13th, 2010, 17:49
Don't double post, use the Edit button.

Also, this thread is about already existing creatures, not potential new ones like the werewolf.

UnknownMaster21
July 22nd, 2010, 00:12
Here is what I see:

Archer
Barbarian
Beetle:beetle::beetle::beetle:<333333
Bile Demon
Black Knight
Dark Elf
Dark Mistress
Demon Spawn
Dragon
Dwarf
Elven Archer
Fairy
Fly:fly::fly::fly:<3333
Ghost
Giant
Goblin
Hell Hound
Horned Reaper
Imp
Knight
Lord of the Land
Monk
Ninja
Orc
Rogue
Royal Guard
Skeleton
Spider:spider::spider::spider:<33333
Stone Knight
Tentacle
Thief
Troll
Tunneller
Vampire
Warlock
Wizard

Other creatures probably


Maiden = NO

Duke Ragereaver
July 22nd, 2010, 08:51
Here is what I see:

Archer
Barbarian
Beetle:beetle::beetle::beetle:<333333
Bile Demon
Black Knight
Dark Elf
Dark Mistress
Demon Spawn
Dragon
Dwarf
Elven Archer
Fairy
Fly:fly::fly::fly:<3333
Ghost
Giant
Goblin
Hell Hound
Horned Reaper
Imp
Knight
Lord of the Land
Monk
Ninja
Orc
Rogue
Royal Guard
Skeleton
Spider:spider::spider::spider:<33333
Stone Knight
Tentacle
Thief
Troll
Tunneller
Vampire
Warlock
Wizard

Other creatures probably


Maiden = NO

Mothrayas' list is far more accurate and far less biased. Still, nice job putting them in an alphabetic order. ;)

UnknownMaster21
July 22nd, 2010, 11:04
Mothrayas' list is far more accurate and far less biased. Still, nice job putting them in an alphabetic order. ;)


But if there is no Fly, Beetle or Spider then I do not care at all.

At least DK II has a Firefly, too bad no Beetle or Spider (Maiden is a sh*t)

MeinCookie
July 22nd, 2010, 11:08
Then again it had the Goblin, Dark Elf and Dark Angel which all rock ;).

Did I mention that Mothrayas's list didn't have the Dark Elf anywhere on it?

Mothrayas
July 22nd, 2010, 11:33
Did I mention that Mothrayas's list didn't have the Dark Elf anywhere on it?

Then give it a place somewhere on the list.

I intended it to be the start of a collaborative work, but it didn't seem to catch on.

MeinCookie
July 22nd, 2010, 13:24
In which case:


Definitive:

-Imp
-Bile Demon
-Troll
-Dark Mistress
-Vampire
-Skeleton
-Warlock

-Wizard
-Archer (normal or elven)
-Lord of the Land
-Giant
-Dwarf
-Monk
-Fairy

Probable:

-Demon Spawn
-Dragon
-(Fire)Fly
-Spider
-Horned Reaper
-Goblin
-Dark Elf
-Rogue

-Tunneller
-Thief

Debatable:

-Ghost
-Beetle
-Hellhound
-Black Knight
-Dark Angel
-Salamander

-Witch
-Samurai
-Avatar
-Barbarian
-Guard
-Royal Guard

Unlikely:

-Maiden of the Nest

Put Dark Elf in probable and moved Rogue there as well tho some might disagree i suppose.

Sire
July 22nd, 2010, 16:25
-Added a small bit of information to start of post.
-Got rid of my old biased opinions, I have slightly different thoughts now.
-Added Mothrayas's list with Meincookie's additions.

Also made use of the awesome Spoiler Tag, which we did not have before.

Sire
August 13th, 2010, 02:13
I updated the list so make it A LOT easier to read. (Notepad and Code Tags, my newest toys besides Spoiler Tags)

Behind the scene news, we are slowly working out units. Currently, there has been some talk about tiered classes.


Early units (good for low level combat, easy to obtain, but will starts to become less common in later levels), Standard units (good at its job, starts off rare, but becomes the norm after a while) advanced unit (very good units, hybrids {good at more than one thing}, quite rare, will remain so) and Powerful (Best kind of unit, very hard to obtain/impossible without sacrifice)

In example: Early tank unit = Beetle, Standard tank unit = Bile Demon, advanced tanking unit = something which can fight as well as take a hit pretty well, powerful tanking unit = something that can really throw it's weight around.

So thing like that but better thought out :P

An expanded Tank example... (From my interpretation of the post)



Early: Beetle Dwarf Warrior
Standard: Bile Demon Giant? (Knight?)
Advanced: ??? Juggernaut? (Knight?, Giant?)
Powerful: ??? Juggernaut?


And below is yet another possible work in progress by yet another developer... (Note that not everything is added yet)


Dungeon Keeper Classes

Worker: Imp --- Dwarf Tunneler [DK I version please!]
Scout: Fly --- Thief
Basic Attacker: Goblin? --- ???
Basic Ranged: ??? --- Archer
Basic Researcher: Warlock --- Wizard
Basic Manufacturer: Troll --- ??? (Debatable Giant or Barbarian)

Tank (Blocker): Bile Demon --- Giant (Debatable Knight)
Dark / Holy: Vampire --- Monk
Glass Cannon: Dark Mistress --- Samurai?
Trash (Mobs): Skeleton --- Fairy

Powerful Unit: Horned Reaper --- Knight?
Commander: Keeper --- Lord / Lady of the Land
Supreme Commander: Horny? --- ???


Others:
Basic Tank: Beetle --- Dwarf Warrior (Mountain Dwarf)
Advanced Attacker: Orc? --- ???
Support: Spider? --- Priestess?
Upgradeable: Chaos Spawn --- Thief?
Upgraded: Dragon --- Knight?

Neutrals:
Pixie?
Tentacle?
Chaos Spawn -> Dragon?
Hellhound?
Giant Worm?
Slime?
Mercenaries?

kyle
August 13th, 2010, 11:43
That list looks almost right

Mothrayas
August 13th, 2010, 14:54
IMO it's kinda misleading that the only visible list is just a list of all DK1 and DK2 characters, while my list (the best attempt at what we're actually supposed to go at in this thread) is put at the back of the post under spoiler tags.

You also make it sound like I'm the sole person responsible for that; no mention that I want it to be a collaborative work where members freely change it so we get a list of what the community truly wants.

A New Room
August 13th, 2010, 17:02
You mean I was compiling a list of my own for nothing? :(



Definitive:


Imp
Bile Demon
Troll
Dark Mistress
Vampire
Skeleton
Warlock



Tunneller
Wizard
Archer (normal or elven)
Knight
Giant
Monk
Fairy


Probably


Orc
Dragon
(Fire)Fly
Spider
Horned Reaper
Rogue
Dark Elf



Samurai
Guard


Debatable


Demon Spawn
Goblin
Dwarf
Spider
Ghost
Beetle
Hellhound
Black Knight
Dark Angel
Rogue
Salamander



Witch
*
Barbarian
Royal Guard
Thief


*I took the avatar off the list, since like the king and the princes he is a boss unit.

The problem I can foresee with this kind of system is it could (if not already has) potentially become sort of bias. But I think it is worth a shot anyway.

Metal Gear Rex
August 13th, 2010, 21:06
Also, the basic manufacturer or whatever for the Heroes is the Dwarf. In DK1 he had the highest manufacturing rate amongst the Heroes, another reason why I think there needs to be a Dwarf AND Tunneller.

A New Room
August 13th, 2010, 22:00
I see your point, but potentially either of them could be replaced with new heroes could they not?

I think it would be simpler for there to be just one short beardy fellow, since that way we have a space to put more verity into the game. It is a tough decision though, do I prefer a short beardy fellow who digs or a short beardy fellow who makes stuff? :/

Sire
August 13th, 2010, 22:38
Updated the first post a little bit, added ANR's list in addition to an attempt to clarify things.

MeinCookie
August 14th, 2010, 01:12
So your saying in that we should Probably have the Guard but only Debatably have the Goblin?

Goblin is a better creature than Guard any day. I revise your list and substitute it with my own ;)

"]Definitive:

* Imp
* Bile Demon
* Troll
* Dark Mistress
* Vampire
* Skeleton
* Warlock

* Tunneller/Dwarf (Or Both)
* Wizard
* Archer (Normal or Elven)
* Knight
* Giant
* Monk
* Fairy


Probably

* Orc
* Dragon
* Fly (Or Possibly Firefly)
* Spider
* Horned Reaper (Or Horny)
* Rogue
* Dark Elf
* Goblin
* Demon Spawn
* Beetle

* Samurai
* Guard


Debatable

* Ghost
* Hellhound
* Black Knight
* Dark Angel
* Salamander

* Witch
* Barbarian
* Thief

Highly Unlikely

* Maiden of the Nest
* Royal Guard



TO JUSTIFY:

Dwarf/Tunneler
As long as we are being unbiased and looking at both than either can fill the task equally, and dwarf has a appeared in two DKs rather than one. At least one being them is definitive and it could equally be either.

Goblin
Yes it overlaps with Spiders and Beetles, but it is one of the better creatures of DK 2. This is more personal preference, but I believe they add a nice touch to the early game.

Demon Spawn
This kind of goes in attachment with the Dragon so they should kind of be in the same catagory. Plus they are great.

Beetle
I don't see how the Spider is anymore essential to the DK ongoing saga (other than to maintain a blood fued between spiders and flies) than the Beetle.

Royal Guard
Not that I have anything against Royal Guards, but ask yourself if it is really likely that they will get in? The Guard would come first and what is the point doubling up? They aren't bad creatures but they are probably the last thing that would get put into WftO.

Metal Gear Rex
August 14th, 2010, 01:36
I'll agree with you on MOST of that, MeinCookie. But also, it would seem that you've forgotten how to use the Spider properly. The Spider may not be a stand-alone unit like the DK1 Wizard, but it definately does a lot of assistance and support fighting with his weakening spells such as Slow and Freeze. When fighting a Level 5 Knight using a Level 3 Black Knight, who would you trust to assist this creature with to ensure victory? A measly Goblin, or a magical Spider? The Spider's set of spells will surely weaken the Level 5 Knight to the point that the Level 3 Black Knight will have victory.

The Goblin is NOT on par with the Spider as they are entirely different units, but he is more so equal to the Beetle. (Which is slightly debatable because the Beetle has freeze but the Beetle overall is a little weaker than the Goblin but does generate health faster)

I also do not think the Thief is debatable at all, he is the Heroes' only stealth unit and has been there for both games.

Also, Sire, why did you put the Fairy as the "Trash" unit with the Skeleton? Fairy serves similar usage to the Spider except she's a bit weaker in the Physical section yet much more powerful in the Magical Section and a Fairy could easy end the life of a Wizard on several occasions. (At least in DK1, but I don't count DK2 as they really screwed things up with the original creatures) They're both strategic units, benifiting only those that can use them right.

Sire
August 14th, 2010, 01:56
@ MGR

Remember, I was just quoting from the developer posts. So, if you want to know, ask him.

*Ahem*

I have little experience in DK (Ironic considering I run a Test Realm), so I classified both Skeleton / Fairies as "Trash / Mobs". This does not mean they are actual "trash", but they need to be massed to prove useful in most cases. (I may be very wrong on that, haven't even beaten either DK.)

Alone, skeletons and fairies will probably get themselves killed. But in massive groups, they can overpower many things just using that type. (Of course, this applies to everything, but maybe more so to these to than the others)

I am not analyzing everything on "micro", using every single unit to bring out their best strengths so they can beat many things. Sure, a weak unit can overpower a stronger one using tactics, but how many players will do that extensively? Yes, "micro" will be factored in, but try to think general instead of specific cases.

[This post has been approved by Professor BS, as the poster does not know what he / she is talking about.]

MeinCookie
August 14th, 2010, 05:02
Yeah... Spider is a pro early support. But i was talking more in the fact that they all are early-game creatures. I wasn't taking from the importance of spider, but supporting the fact that beetle is useful in its own way and better fits into probable.

Also... I didn't move thief to Debatable. That was ANR. I merely was divided on whether it belonged in Probably so I left it. Thieves are in both games and yes, they were around before Rogues and serve as the heroes on stealth.

Move it up if you wish - i wash too lazy.

EDIT ~ Actually, no... I will do it it later with justifications for the placement of everything. Then to move things you have to justify why. Makes better sense.

Sire
August 15th, 2010, 00:24
Guys, remember to try and fit in the "Approved" Suggestion ideas as well. They survived the cleansing for a reason!

I also sent a request to change the name for this thread (long overdue) to clarify stuff.

Sire
August 18th, 2010, 20:28
I came up with a slightly updated list. Enjoy, and comment / review. We really need input on units.

Notes:
-Includes all units from DK I, II, and Approved Suggestion. [I did sneak one in...]
-Confirmed means that there is really no question how it should go. (Based on my list)
-Debatable means that one / more units can compete for that spot.
-Others means that while they have classes, may not be essential to WFTO...
-Suggestions = Self Explanatory
-Neutrals means that they are either hostile to all or don't bother anyone.
-Unknown means I have no flippin' idea where to place them.
-Questionable means they may find a place, they may not.
-Scrapped = Self Explanatory



Dungeon Keeper Classes [Sire Confirmed]

Worker: Imp --- Dwarf Tunneler [DK I]
Basic Researcher: Warlock --- Wizard
Dark / Holy: Vampire --- Monk
Glass Cannon: Dark Mistress --- Samurai
Trash (Mobs): Skeleton --- Fairy
Commander: Keeper --- Lord / Lady of the Land

Debatable Classes:

Scout: Fly -- Thief?
Basic Attacker Goblin? (Chaos Spawn) --- Barbarian? (Thief?)
Basic Ranged: ??? --- Archer
Basic Manufacturer: Troll --- Dwarf Warrior? (Barbarian?)
Tank (Blocker): Bile Demon --- Giant? (Knight?)
Powerful Unit: Horned Reaper --- Knight?
Supreme Commander: Horny? --- (Classified)?

Others:

Basic Tank: Beetle --- Dwarf Warrior
Upgradeable: Chaos Spawn --- Thief?
Upgraded: Dragon --- Knight?
Disruption: Spider? --- Priestess?

Suggestions: (Suggestion classes are here, reposted if it's already existing)

Support: Succubus? --- Maiden?

Neutals:

Ghost (Obtained via failued torturing)
Pixie
Giant Worm [Wrym]
Slime
Giant Scorpion [I love Impale too much...]
Mercenaries

Unknown:

Archlich (It's an extremely powerful creature with abilities similar to Horned
Reapers and Fallen Angels. As of now, there is no Hero counterpart.)
Valkyrie (She is a verstile unit, good for offense and defense, possessing a
special skill to redeem fallen allies. There is no Creature
counterpart [although I considered editing the Dark Angel to fit
this role...])
Juggernaut (He is a powerful tank [blocker], a grade above the Knight. Perhaps the
dragon may be his adversary?)
Orc (A powerful attack unit, but I don't know where the opposite is.)
Dark Angel (A extremely powerful attack unit, but where's thy enemy's copy?)

Questionable:

Salamander - May be returned as a neutral hostile.
Hell Hound - May be returned as a neutral hostile.
Tentacle - May be returned as a neutral hostile
Ogre - May require reworking.
Succubus - May require reworking (But I want one in! :D)
Maiden - May require tweaking (Can be a counter to Succubus)
Dark Elf - May be replaced by something else, otherwise requires new model
and voicework. (I didn't like the DK II version)
Black Knight - May just be a skin for a converted Knight, nothing more.
Rogue - May just be a skin for a converted Thief, nothing more.

Scrapped:

Maiden of the Nest (Spider takes its place)
Guard (Can be replaced with something better)
Royal Guard (Can be replaced with something better)

kyle
August 18th, 2010, 22:29
I agree with pratically the entire list.

Evi
August 19th, 2010, 01:42
I agree with Kyle. :p

Should I go ahead and make a thread concerning the possible and perhaps make new Neutral Creatures?

Sire
August 19th, 2010, 01:50
I say don't go overboard with neutrals quite yet.

While "Creeps" were placed into Warcraft III, I am not sure how well Neutral Hostile mobs will be in Dungeon Keeper. While personally I can see it happening, too much change may turn off old time fans.

Of course, there's always the compromise of "Not in real campaign or popular skirmish maps", and allow Neutral Hostiles as a optional feature. It may assist with creating even better / more varied maps.

* * *

Although if Neutrals does go through, I can see several Neutral Creatures being made for each "texture" set. (Example: A Scorpion will be present in a Desert theme, and an Ice monster created for an Ice theme. Or, we can just add another skin to the model to adapt to the tilelist.)

* * *

Edit:

We may just have a poll for this and Developer's Choice like before once Units, Rooms, and "Textures" (Themes, tilelists) are done.

Metal Gear Rex
August 19th, 2010, 01:58
Wouldn't Neutrals be considered more or less another Hero group from a gameplay perspective? Sometimes you find Heroes in the middle of nowhere (Like a small room of dirtpath) so thoese Heroes could be replaced by these Neutral Hostiles. (As they would also make more sense)

Sire
August 19th, 2010, 02:01
@ MGR

Aye, it would make more sense. More variety too. Thy shall have a cookie, for I did not think of such and idea.

For now though, I think we should focus on getting the Units, Rooms, and Tilelists covered first. Then I'll open up the magical polls for allowing Neutrals, unless most people here more or less already agrees on letting them in.

kyle
August 19th, 2010, 13:15
I have nothing against the idea, its a good way to let units which werent just quite good enough to be creatures, but could make it as neutrals. also variety is the spice of life. So moar variety plz

MeinCookie
August 19th, 2010, 13:25
You seem to have the attitude to fit established creatures around suggestions... i believe it should be the other-way round, regardless whether they passed the cleanup or not. just my personal take.

I believe that the original creatures should only be altered extensively unless they have balance issues, don't fit in or, like the maiden, sucked.

Metal Gear Rex
August 19th, 2010, 13:43
You seem to have the attitude to fit established creatures around suggestions... i believe it should be the other-way round, regardless whether they passed the cleanup or not. just my personal take.

I believe that the original creatures should only be altered extensively unless they have balance issues, don't fit in or, like the maiden, sucked.

I must say, I completely agree with this. And I also agree that the Maiden sucked.

kyle
August 19th, 2010, 14:08
Was that directed at me?

MeinCookie
August 19th, 2010, 14:10
No... at the list :o:)

A New Room
August 19th, 2010, 14:29
Cut list

Looks good to me :)
_________________________________________________

On the whole Neutrals thing I'm not a big fan of the idea, since (going on other games I have played with them in) they tend make things too unpredictable. This can range from them just being annoying to game breaking.

Sire
August 19th, 2010, 14:41
@ Mein

I take it you are referring to the Valkyrie maybe being the counterpart to the Dark Angel? If so, yes, I have considered that (for I can see the Dark Angel being a support unit), but I had a feeling it wouldn't pass through. It was only an idea.

I do not plan to alter the units extensively or at all (unless slight adjustments are required for only balance reasons). I am trying to get the established creatures in first, then the suggestions. If the normal ones do not seem to have a counterpart, then I consider seeing if a suggestion can fill that empty slot. If this is what you are talking about, then yes, but only if the normal creature has no other counterpart for that role.

Why does everyone look at me thinking I make all the decisions? I ask before I post stuff outside of the developer realm, and we are just people. Not only that, but I try to get public input on things as well. Things can change, no one ever said that some of this stuff was final. (although the list is heading toward being accepted, but it needs to be finalized...)

* * *

I'm going to go ahead and make a Neutrals poll to get it over with. No use with waiting...

Metal Gear Rex
August 19th, 2010, 14:52
Why does everyone look at me thinking I make all the decisions? I ask before I post stuff outside of the developer realm, and we are just people. Not only that, but I try to get public input on things as well. Things can change, no one ever said that some of this stuff was final. (although the list is heading toward being accepted, but it needs to be finalized...)

Well you ARE a represenative are you not? ;P

I imagine this would be the response to a represenative/messanger. (More like the former, the latter would be more like complaints if they didn't like what was happening)

MeinCookie
August 23rd, 2010, 10:33
Not the Valkryie so much in comparison to the Dark Angel, as the Dark Angel was always a bit questionable as to power. More a general feel i get reading it.

I'm just saying.

EDIT ~ If Dark Elf is to be reimagined in terms of skin... make it more like Tod's cartoon Dark Elf cos that did rock.

Sire
August 29th, 2010, 15:32
I have an updated list from the developer realm. Don't be afraid to place your input either! There's really only a handful of developers actually making decisions at the moment...

Updated / Comments:
Upgradeable - Thief replaced with Squire (New Undeveloped Unit)
Scout class moved to the confirmed list.
Basic Attacker - Demon Spawn wins the slot (More Unique), Goblin moved to Unknown.
Dark Elf should be replaced with something better. (Agreed here)
Barbarian can be replaced with something better. (Also agreed, Barbarian can turn into a Hostile if he is replaced.)
Some units have been secured to their class, for the time being.
Gremlin added to Neutrals (My addition)


Dungeon Keeper Classes [Sire]

Worker: Imp --- Dwarf Tunneller
Scout: Fly -- Thief
Basic Researcher: Warlock --- Wizard
Dark / Holy: Vampire --- Monk
Glass Cannon: Dark Mistress --- Samurai
Trash (Mobs): Skeleton --- Fairy
Commander: Keeper --- Lord / Lady of the Land

Debatable Classes:

Basic Attacker: Demon Spawn --- Barbarian / ???
Basic Ranged: ??? --- Archer
Basic Manufacturer: Troll --- Dwarf Warrior?
Tank (Blocker): Bile Demon --- Giant
Powerful Unit: Horned Reaper --- Knight?
Supreme Commander: Horny --- [Classified]

Others:

Basic Tank: Beetle --- Dwarf Warrior?
Upgradeable: Chaos Spawn --- Squire
Upgraded: Dragon --- Knight
Disruption: Spider --- Priestess

Suggestions:

Support: Succubus? --- Maiden?

Neutals:

Ghost (Obtained via failued torturing)
Pixie
Giant Worm [Wrym]
Slime
Giant Scorpion
Gremlin
Mercenaries

Unknown:

Archlich (It's an extremely powerful creature with abilities similar to Horned
Reapers and Fallen Angels. As of now, there is no Hero counterpart.)
Valkyrie (She is a verstile unit, good for offense and defense, possessing a
special skill to redeem fallen allies. There is no Creature
counterpart [although I considered editing the Fallen Angel to fit
this role...])
Juggernaut (He is a powerful tank [blocker], a grade above the Knight. Perhaps the
dragon may be his adversary?)
Orc (A powerful attack unit, but I don't know where the opposite is.)
Dark Angel (A extremely powerful attack unit, but where's thy enemy's copy?)
Goblin - As of now, this basic fighting unit have no place to go, although he would
be a nice addition to WFTO. (Neutral Hostile may also work for him...)

Questionable:

Salamander - May be returned as a neutral hostile.
Hell Hound - May be returned as a neutral hostile.
Tentacle - May be returned as a neutral hostile
Ogre - May require reworking.
Succubus - May require reworking (But I want one in! :D)
Maiden - May require tweaking (Can be a counter to Succubus)
Dark Elf - May be replaced by something else, otherwise requires new model
and voicework. (I didn't like the DK II version)
Black Knight - May just be a skin for a converted Knight, nothing more.
Rogue - May just be a skin for a converted Thief, nothing more.

Scrapped:

Maiden of the Nest (Spider takes its place)
Guard (Can be replaced with something better)
Royal Guard (Can be replaced with something better)

Evi
August 30th, 2010, 01:04
I think the Goblin being Neutral/Hostile will be a good way to go.

And for replacing the Drow/Dark Elf/Barbiarn, what else can we replace her/him/it with? I'm drawing a complete blank on them. I'll go look around on some fantasy sites, maybe I'll find some nice looking possibilitys. But that's not to say that I'm not willing to see someone with a pretty unique suggestion. Anyone remember the Chub Toad? :D

Metal Gear Rex
August 30th, 2010, 02:55
I think this whole counterpart buisness is wrong, very wrong. Thing is, we're heading into DK2's direction with this. The problems with purposely designing a counterpart is that you kick out potential unique creatures because they lack counterparts, not to mention, you have to fix other creatures into somethine less unique to get him to be a counterpart.

Dungeon Keeper 1 wasn't designed with counterparts in mind. That's why they had so many uniques. I don't think this will be as bad a list as DK2's, but it won't be as great as DK1's either. The Heroes are supposed to have the power of large quality units with great potentcial. The Keepers are supposed to have power in numbers. DK2 took this away, so the game became extremely easy, even the last level. Not to mention, it gave the player access to a lot of powerful units, such as the Black Knight, which completed was imbalanced because they also kept the Keeper's powers in numbers.

We can take away the numbers of the Keepers, or increase the numbers of Heroes, but that only makes the game more boring as there won't be much of a difference between fighting Keepers and Heroes. Remember that the Bile Demon was put out of buisness once a Giant entered your dungeon. They fixed the Giant to be a counterpart to the Bile Demon, not to mention, effectively removed the use of Trolls, which are supposed to be the highest ranked Manufacturers. Not to mention, Dwarves.

Counterparts should be made after we decide what's in and out, not be part of the decision making. Look at your list! Those unknowns don't have as much of a chance to get in. Look at some of them, those are good suggestions, being kicked out for the sole reason of not having counterparts. Not to mention, certain units aren't being correctly labeled as they are supposed to be more unique, but fixed to fit a less unique creature as I mentioned before. Fairy to Skeleton... do they have anything in common besides a low health and armor?

Monk and Vampire is a good example of how you shouldn't focus your counterparts. They are so far apart from being counterparts, that they are more like mortal enemies. I hope you aren't deciding to take away the Vampire's resurrection ability or give the Monk the power to come back several times. I know you aren't, but that's only because they have their past experiance to back them up. Not all the creatures have that, especailly new suggestions.

I think this list needs some serious thinking to happen, re-processed, and possibily new people to work on it as it seems your current developers that are giving imput, do not know how to truly handle the situation. Counterparts are not the way to go.

PS: The Orc and Barbarian are counterparts, has anybody there even looked at their DK1 stats, the game they originated from?

Sire
August 30th, 2010, 03:16
@ MGR

I believe you are taking our version of counterparts way too seriously (or it's just me). These are not Hard counterparts, that they will be exactly the same as the opposite.

For my purposes, I am using counterparts as an extreme loose form of grouping creatures and heroes. Will they have exact same stats and abilities as one another? No. Will they be almost identical and having only a slight difference in stats and abilities? I hope not. (I don't control the balancing, just the lists and concepts to my knowledge).
As an example: Skeletons and Fairies. Are they remotely similar? No. However, they do share the trait that they are basically useless alone, but prove effective in groups. That is why I placed them as counterparts. The same goes for Monks and Vampires. Are they remotely similar? No to this one as well. However, they represent Dark and Holy, have respective skills and specials, and act as good counterparts. This is not your Black Knight and Knight counterpart plan, this list is different.

I am trying to organize the groups into the very basic roles. And of course, there's nothing wrong with "Unique" counterparts either (which hasn't yet been implemented). Heroes can have a unique unit, while the Creatures have their own. These two will probably bear the similarity of similar tier or strength, but otherwise, it's all unique.
I understand (with my primitive mind), that you do not want to have any unit obsolete. We are working on rarity and how to make lower tiers still as useful as the higher ones. I also see your argument about the unit numbers for each side being basically even. Yes, that is a downside to this "counterpart" idea, but otherwise, I do not see much of a problem with it.

* * *

TDLR:
-We are not designing WFTO with hard counterparts in mind. Much of the team prefers the DK I roots, with elements of DK II added in.
-The "Counterpart" List is an extremely loose form of organization. We aim to still have all the units unique in some way or form.
-Do not forgot that "Unique" counterparts have not been added yet. We are still trying to get the basic roles filled before we start handling unique units per side. (I know this was not covered, but it was my intention)
-Yes, the downside I can think of about the Counterpart list is that both factions have an even number of units. Is that much of a problem?

PS:
Orc and Barbarian are counterparts? I didn't know that (and we don't get much information either...) Next revision will address this.

Hapuga
August 30th, 2010, 11:01
A good way to go is to have a counter creature on the opposite side.

For example, wizards on the good side are countered by some creature that is especially good at killing wizards. probably magic resistant, fast hth.
A warlock with his arcane powers will be a totally different class. for example, wizard is a battle mage, and warlock is a support class caster (buffs, curses, etc).

In this example we have two seemingly similar creatures, yet we avoid the wizard=warlock thing.

I think that every, _absolutely_ every creature can make a comeback if it is wisely weighted and a reasonable counter measure is created for that creatures.

Why black knights and dark angels pwned in DK2? Because there were no ways to stop them, except more Bks and more Das.

If there is a reasonable way to make a creature less effective in a certain situation, then why would you want to delete it?

For example, Black Knight wears heavy metal suit. well, make it sensitive to electricity! Zap a knight with a bolt, and kick his ass =)

All good strategy games are made like that. Ofcourse, if we are talking ablut Knight=Black Knight, Elf=Dark elf, then it's nonsense. But if we make each creature very individual, yet effective in a certain situation, why would you want to skip on it?

MeinCookie
August 30th, 2010, 13:43
Speaking of balancing and Knights, although Trolls are generally terrible fighters all round... perhaps they can have a slight bonus against armored creatures? They do use blunt weapons after-all.

Vague and off-topic though aside:

The way I see it there are several main tiers of Trap/Spell/Keeper Spell and among those are fire, wind, turncoat/delusions, electricity and freeze. Emphasis on the main. Thus I think a large portion of units, particularly in the early game and lower tiers of creatures should be weak to at least one of these as a magical counter. Not necessarily all units but a portion of them.

Goblin = Weak against Freeze and Turncoat/Delusion
Fly = Weak against Electricity and Wind
Spider = Weak against Fire
Beetle = N/A - Early Resistant Unit
Demon Spawn = Weak against Turncoat/Delusions
Salamander = Weak against Freeze
Knight = Weak against Electricity (^Hapuga's)

and so on...

It doesn't have to be very prominent, but it makes strategy towards countering units, particularly early and mid game, more in depth and intense. It also helps enforce the unique-ness of units and differentiate - notably demon spawn and salamander.

emperorjay
August 30th, 2010, 19:53
the idea of each units weaknesses does sound very promising, however i hope it doesn't make things too complicated for the devs :p

Kiyoitsukikage
August 31st, 2010, 08:20
Weaknesses/resistances are reminding me of Pokémon...:p

But I can see this bringing a lot more strategy into the game rather than just mindless killing. And hey, I love Pokémon. :D

I wouldn't like to see too many, as this can take a LOT of balancing and people can forget. More like a spontaneous idea - "There's a hoard of Flies by there, better use some Mistresses," type of thing.

(By the way, why would a Salamander be weak against Freeze? Fire would beat ice, hands down...but ice does turn into water when melted, but it shouldn't be complicated like that, really...)

MeinCookie
August 31st, 2010, 09:56
The way I see it there are several main tiers of Trap/Spell/Keeper Spell and among those are fire, wind, turncoat/delusions, electricity and freeze. Emphasis on the main. Thus I think a large portion of units, particularly in the early game and lower tiers of creatures should be weak to at least one of these as a magical counter. Not necessarily all units but a portion of them.

Goblin = Weak against Freeze and Turncoat/Delusion
Fly = Weak against Electricity and Wind
Spider = Weak against Fire
Beetle = N/A - Early Resistant Unit
Demon Spawn = Weak against Turncoat/Delusions
Salamander = Weak against Freeze
Knight = Weak against Electricity (^Hapuga's)

and so on...

It doesn't have to be very prominent, but it makes strategy towards countering units, particularly early and mid game, more in depth and intense. It also helps enforce the unique-ness of units and differentiate - notably demon spawn and salamander.


(By the way, why would a Salamander be weak against Freeze? Fire would beat ice, hands down...but ice does turn into water when melted, but it shouldn't be complicated like that, really...)


Well the Salamander is a creature of fire with an affinity to fire, but in the Dungeon Keeper case it doesn't actually appear to be made of fire, so unless the model is changed beyond recognition, than it does make sense that it has a less than fondness of ice. It would have to annoy it at least. You get a Salamander out of lava and freeze it and no way is it going to be happy.

Debatable.

Anyways, not all units would necessarily have a weakness and it would have to be studied to work out how it all fits together on whole.

Metal Gear Rex
September 3rd, 2010, 12:27
Finally got around to replying >.<

Shouldn't this go in the Suggestions sub-forum? >.> (Until we get a more complete and varified list)


I believe you are taking our version of counterparts way too seriously (or it's just me). These are not Hard counterparts, that they will be exactly the same as the opposite.

That's not the point, I used it as an example as those are excellent examples as to counterparts going wrong.


For my purposes, I am using counterparts as an extreme loose form of grouping creatures and heroes. Will they have exact same stats and abilities as one another? No. Will they be almost identical and having only a slight difference in stats and abilities? I hope not. (I don't control the balancing, just the lists and concepts to my knowledge).

Well, your additude on those without counterparts is what annoyed me actually. It sounded like they didn't have as much of a chance to get in. Creatures like the Juggernaut (God I suck at spelling sometimes...) seem more like those special unique types, yet weren't classified as such.


As an example: Skeletons and Fairies. Are they remotely similar? No. However, they do share the trait that they are basically useless alone, but prove effective in groups. That is why I placed them as counterparts. The same goes for Monks and Vampires. Are they remotely similar? No to this one as well. However, they represent Dark and Holy, have respective skills and specials, and act as good counterparts. This is not your Black Knight and Knight counterpart plan, this list is different.

No offense, but that is a very weak arguement there. This is a strategy game, a lot of creatures are useless alone. So are Spiders, Warlocks, Warlocks, Demon Spawns, Dragons, etc. Combination is what matter. Fairy is as useful as a Warlock, possibly more. In fact, Warlock is probably a perfect counterpart for a Fairy game mechanics-wise considering that they're both designed to do damage. (*cough* Meteor *cough*)

The Warlock should go as an offensive support or something similar. Researching is a dungeon type of thing. That's the only way he's similar to the Wizard. The Wizard is probably one of the few stand alone units, possibly the only COMMON unit that can stand alone. His combination of spells make him far from the Warlock, capable of defeating an Orc, but his weakness is that he's not as good as a support unit compared to the Warlock.

Equally, the Dragon can be seen as a counterpart to the Monk (Again, Game mechanics-wise) as they both have similar traits. Not too much damage, early heal, high armor (Monk once he gets armor) and slow but also serve as pretty decent blocker units as well as researchers. The Monk is probably a lot closer to the Dragon compared to say the Vampire. The only problem is the Monk doesn't have as much health, but he does have drain and slow, which balances him out. His use of Word of Power can also ensure that he'll use it too. Hailstorm can also be seen to fit the Dragon's Meteor.

* * *


-The "Counterpart" List is an extremely loose form of organization. We aim to still have all the units unique in some way or form.

I can see that actually quite well >.>


-Do not forgot that "Unique" counterparts have not been added yet. We are still trying to get the basic roles filled before we start handling unique units per side. (I know this was not covered, but it was my intention)

Well then you should add some new section like "Possible Unique" and add some of those others in there.


-Yes, the downside I can think of about the Counterpart list is that both factions have an even number of units. Is that much of a problem?

Yeah, in fact that completely collides with this:


-We are not designing WFTO with hard counterparts in mind. Much of the team prefers the DK I roots, with elements of DK II added in.

Counterpart may be a DKII element, which "justifies" you being able to use it like that, however, it does effectively kill a DKI root of such uniqueness between both sides. I personally like this uniqueness, otherwise, why should I care if the Heroes are playable? It wouldn't add as much to the variety of gameplay compared to the DKI story.


PS:[/B]
Orc and Barbarian are counterparts? I didn't know that (and we don't get much information either...) Next revision will address this.

Yeah it does. Their stats are very similar. Maybe I should come on board with them WftO developers to straighten some things out and clarify information because I am litterally a DKI freak when it comes to knowledge of creatures (I've worked with DKI creature data since I was younger as I love to modify my games to the fullest, but I worked with the creature.txt file itself as I didn't have special programs, thus helping me memorize and learn a lot)

Barbarian has higher dexterity compared to the Orc, so at Level 2, he begins to win. This changes at level 5 though, when the Orc gets Speed. In the end, the Orc kills the Barbarian. However, the Barbarian is still more valuable than the Orc. If you use Speed on the Barbarian, then the Orc loses his upperhand. Thus, they go back to the basics. In other words, the Barbarian will kill the Orc because he has a higher dexterity and thus hits more.

To put it simply, the Barbarian (when owned by a Keeper) has more potential than an Orc.


* * *



For example, wizards on the good side are countered by some creature that is especially good at killing wizards. probably magic resistant, fast hth.
A warlock with his arcane powers will be a totally different class. for example, wizard is a battle mage, and warlock is a support class caster (buffs, curses, etc).

What do you mean "will be"? As I said in my above example, the Warlock and Wizard are completely different units from a game mechanics perspective. DKII fixed this for them to be more similar, another problem with DKII...


In this example we have two seemingly similar creatures, yet we avoid the wizard=warlock thing.

DKII maybe that's true...


Why black knights and dark angels pwned in DK2? Because there were no ways to stop them, except more Bks and more Das.

Dark Angels are more balanced that Black Knights, even more than Horned Reapers. Their weakness is low health, when you use them anyways. Outside of that, getting one is extremely hard. You need to have 75000 gold just for 2. Not to mention, throw away any other possibly powerful creature you have as you'd probably be full of creatures by the time you aquired such money (When not trying to build it first thing anyways...) unless you kept 2 level 1 Goblins kept just for that purpose. (Or Fireflies)

Black Knights are imbalanced because they have high health and damage. They also are extremely cheap to get.


If there is a reasonable way to make a creature less effective in a certain situation, then why would you want to delete it?

For example, Black Knight wears heavy metal suit. well, make it sensitive to electricity! Zap a knight with a bolt, and kick his ass =)

The Knight in DK1 was a lot more balanced than say the Black Knight, but the reason for that is because a lot of DK2 mechanics and elements are screwy to begin with it.


* * *



Speaking of balancing and Knights, although Trolls are generally terrible fighters all round... perhaps they can have a slight bonus against armored creatures? They do use blunt weapons after-all.

Trolls have an advantage of being the best manufacturers on the evil side, and, in DK1, the best in the game. DKII took that away from them... bastard Giants... Trolls' position is not on the battlefield, it is in the dungeon and in the Workshop.


Vague and off-topic though aside:

The way I see it there are several main tiers of Trap/Spell/Keeper Spell and among those are fire, wind, turncoat/delusions, electricity and freeze. Emphasis on the main. Thus I think a large portion of units, particularly in the early game and lower tiers of creatures should be weak to at least one of these as a magical counter. Not necessarily all units but a portion of them.

Goblin = Weak against Freeze and Turncoat/Delusion
Fly = Weak against Electricity and Wind
Spider = Weak against Fire
Beetle = N/A - Early Resistant Unit
Demon Spawn = Weak against Turncoat/Delusions
Salamander = Weak against Freeze
Knight = Weak against Electricity (^Hapuga's)

and so on...

It doesn't have to be very prominent, but it makes strategy towards countering units, particularly early and mid game, more in depth and intense. It also helps enforce the unique-ness of units and differentiate - notably demon spawn and salamander.

I honestly think that is a horrible idea. Dungeon Keeper's strategy is supposed to come with unit combinations as they're all different. For example, say you are fighting a Wizard. You have a Skeleton (DK1, obviously) fighting it, but you have to choose between which support creature to fight it. Do you use a Fairy, or a Warlock? The Fairy, because her Drain and Lightning pass through the Wizard's Rebound compared to the Warlock who's Meteor will reflect and hit the Skeleton. You don't have time to wait for the Rebound to wear off as the Skeleton will die. (You could drop the Skeleton and pick him back up then wait but that's a cheap strategy anyways...)

EDIT:
Whew that took a while to type... and I still have other stuff to do! D:

MeinCookie
September 3rd, 2010, 12:37
Just because the troll is a terrible fighter and will indefinitely lose against a knight (or anyone) it doesn't mean they can't be slightly more effective (relatively) against knights than other creatures. Not that it really matters because it was just a pass off idea anyway that occurred to me and is so tiny and insignificant that it makes little real difference..

As for your second point... You didn't really conclude so I can't see what point you were trying to make.

Metal Gear Rex
September 3rd, 2010, 15:15
As for your second point... You didn't really conclude so I can't see what point you were trying to make.

I was in a rush to finish up. Basically, that is an example of how you use different strategies to defeat creatures. If the Wizard was suddenly made stronger to Lightning, it would have screwed you over. Or if the Wizard was made weak against Fire, you could have used the Warlock without too much difficulty. My point is that DK already has its strategic elements.

Sorry if I sounded so harsh, but the idea really repulses me as it doesn't sound very Dungeon Keeperish, and it would take over or complicate an already working and Dungeon Keeperish strategy of playing, which is what old school style of players should be used to, (But maybe not as it doesn't seem anybody even knows what to me is basic, could be my long time of playing or that I'm more absorbant of those things) which isn't what we're aiming for on WftO? That's what was said when rejecting a few certain suggestions...

MeinCookie
September 3rd, 2010, 15:43
I'm not proposing the blanket systems of some RTSs and those are just examples. All would be carefully considered from a game-play perspective and all that I haven't done. In many ways it is just expanding on and adding a little bit more depth than just spells, health, armor and the level in which abilities are gained.

And not everything would have it either. In my mind it is only really applicable to early game creatures and a few rare mid game creatures. Warlocks are, really, s more mid game creatures. As such the element gives way and is only active while basic creatures are in play. In would make very little impact in later battles when almost all creatures are mid-late game.

In my mind it is the early-game that lacks what you describe above because many creatures don't have many, or any, spells and as such the tactics are really rather simple.

Just think over it, would it really be a bad thing?

Sire
September 14th, 2010, 20:56
Notice: Lists may be incomplete.

Currently, this is just a list of rooms for DK I and II.

For right now, just state corrections and which rooms you would like to see return. I'll organize and make stuff nice (as well as make the WTFO list) at a later date.

DK I Rooms

Dungeon Heart
Treasure Room (Treasury)
Lair
Hatchery
Training Room
Library
Bridge
Guard Post
Workshop
Prison
Torture Room
Barracks
Temple
Graveyard
Scavenger Room

DK II Rooms:

Casino
Wooden Bridge
Stone Bridge
Combat Pit
Dungeon Heart
Treasure Room (Treasury)
Lair
Hatchery
Training Room
Library
Workshop
Prison
Torture Room
Temple
Graveyard

Sire
September 14th, 2010, 21:00
Notice: If there's not going to be any public input, then I'm going to stop creating Public Input threads and wasting my time. I have other priorities to do.
Note that this is the same post as before.

Make another update to the list.

Updates / Comments:
Moved Disruption to official list.
Basic Hero Attacker changed to Squire.
New Hero: Blacksmith for basic manufacturer?
Advanced Attacker Class added.
Advanced Blocker Class added.
Hero Powerful Unit changed to ???.
Creature Supreme Commander is currently debatable.
Hero Support added an / ???.
Added Power / Versatility
Added Gargoyle to the new "Under Discussion" category.
---
Still debating if Knights should be as powerful as Horned Reapers. The problem is here, if the Juggernaut is included, Juggernauts are supposed to be even better than Knights...
Also, we are going with the the current soft counterpart method to organize units.


"(...)" units mean they do not exist as of yet.

Dungeon Keeper Classes [Sire]

Worker: Imp --- Dwarf Tunneller
Scout: Fly -- Thief
Basic Researcher: Warlock --- Wizard
Disruption: Spider --- Priestess
Trash (Mobs): Skeleton --- Fairy
Dark / Holy: Vampire --- Monk
Glass Cannon: Dark Mistress --- Samurai
Commander: Keeper --- Lord / Lady of the Land

Debatable Classes:

Basic Attacker: Demon Spawn --- (Squire?)
Basic Ranged: ??? --- Archer
Basic Manufacturer: Troll --- Dwarf Warrior? / (Blacksmith?)
Tank (Blocker): Bile Demon --- Giant
Advanced Attacker Orc - Barbarian / ???
Advanced Blocker Dragon? / Knight?
Powerful Unit: Horned Reaper --- ???
Supreme Commander: Horny? --- [Classified]

Others:

Basic Tank: Beetle --- Dwarf Warrior?
Upgradeable: Chaos Spawn --- (Squire)
Upgraded: Dragon --- Knight

Suggestions:

Support: Succubus? --- Maiden? / ???
Power / Versatility Archlich? --- Valkyrie? (One will require
revisions if this happens,
probably the Valkyrie.)

Neutrals:

Ghost (Obtained via failued torturing)
Pixie
Giant Worm [Wrym]
Slime
Giant Scorpion
Gremlin
Mercenaries

Unknown:

Juggernaut - He is a powerful tank [blocker], a grade above the Knight. Perhaps the
dragon or a gargoyle may be his adversary?
Dark Angel - A extremely powerful attack unit, but where's thy enemy's copy?
Goblin - As of now, this basic fighting unit have no place to go, although he
would be a nice addition to WFTO. (Neutral Hostile may also work for him...

Questionable:

Salamander - May be returned as a neutral hostile.
Hell Hound - May be returned as a neutral hostile.
Tentacle - May be returned as a neutral hostile
Ogre - May require reworking.
Succubus - May require reworking (But I want one in! :D)
Maiden - May require tweaking (Can be a counter to Succubus)
Dark Elf - May be replaced by something else, otherwise requires new model
and voicework. (I didn't like the DK II version)
Black Knight - May just be a skin for a converted Knight, nothing more.
Rogue - May just be a skin for a converted Thief, nothing more.

Under Discussion:

Gargoyle - One of the developers expressed interest in it. Perhaps he may be the
Juggernaut's counterpart?

Scrapped:

Maiden of the Nest - Spider takes its place
Guard - Can be replaced with something better
Royal Guard - Can be replaced with something better

Sire
September 14th, 2010, 21:04
Notice: This list may be incomplete.

Currently, it's a simple list of DK I / II spells. Just post what spells you would like to see return. A more organized list and stuff will be done at a later date.

Spell Mechanic: Mana

DK I:

Create Imp
Must Obey
Sight of Evil
Call to Arms
Cave In
Heal Creature
Hold Audience
Lightning
Speed Creature
Protect
Conceal
Disease
Chicken
Destroy Walls
Armageddon

DK II

Pending...

MeinCookie
September 15th, 2010, 00:20
In my mind it is like this:



Well obviously the following rooms will pretty much definitely return right?


Fixed

Dungeon Heart
If you replaced the Dungeon Heart... then how would it be Dungeon Keeper? Key game-play mechanic and fixed.

Treasury/Treasure Room
Essential Game-play Mechanic. It shall be there til the end of time.

Lair
Essential Game-play Mechanic. It shall be there til the end of time.

Hatchery
Essential Game-play Mechanic. It shall be there til the end of time.

Training Room
Whether used on its own or in conjunction with Combat Pit, Training Room shall be there.

Library
Key to research and Keeper spells as well as home of the Warlock and center for key game-play features... pretty definite.

Bridge (or Bridges)
I personally prefer Dungeon Keeper II's double bridge system because it added a deeper aspect, but either way the Bridge shall be there, helping your ignoble creatures cross water and fire.

Workshop
Center manufacturing of traps, has scores of units attached and plays a major role in dungeon defense. Key Game-play mechanic. Wouldn't be DK without it.

Prison
Linked closely with the Torture Chamber, and whether DK 1 or 2, a major game-play mechanic. Also the home of skeletons, my favorite unit for one reason or another.

Torture Chamber
Who doesn't love converting heroes and enemies to your cause, to turn them against their former allegiances?

Temple
The main route for sacrifices and calming creatures...

Graveyard
Without the graveyard we wouldn't have vampires, a major part of the DK mechanic.


These are likely, and really should be included, but might possible be subject to change:


Likely or Probable

Guard Room (or Guard Post)
Good for dungeon defense and attracting creatures to areas that matter in an ongoing fashion.

Combat Pit
Adds a lot to the ranking system.

Casino
Unique, in terms of function, and helps earn creature money back.

Scavenger Room
A key DK 1 room.


Self-Explanatory


Unlikely

Barracks
It is kind of useless...

MeinCookie
September 15th, 2010, 00:28
Just checking, but it is decided that WftO will use Mana over Gold, yes?

Sire
September 15th, 2010, 00:43
*Checks sources*

Yes, WFTO will use mana over gold.

Addressing in first post.

A New Room
September 15th, 2010, 02:28
Definitely:

Procession, Gives the keeper the power to join the battle, is hell of a fun to mess around with and is also a real help for showing those forgetful creatures where they left their lair keys.


Create Imp, Since Imps don't have a breeding instinct anymore, it just the only way I'm afraid...


Sight of Evil, Useful for spying on the enemy and finding secret. On the other hand it does remove the map-making tool of surprise, though this could easily be fixed.


Heal Creature, Gives you much more of an edge in battle, and can really be a help if you're attacked and your creatures have spent more time in the library than in the training room.


Call to Arms, Helps keep your forces organised for an attack and enforces the idea that you know more than they do.


Create Gold, A pretty good spell to take from Dk2, as this goes hand in hand with the use of mana as a secondary resource


Lightning, Good as a deterrent for enemy imps, though it should be also a shocking expense to you mana. Maybe it could get more expensive the more you use it, then have a cool down that after a while brings it back to it's usual cost


Speed Creature. Make your minions Work/Read/Eat/Sleep faster to give your dungeon a boost in efficiency. Combine with a slap and your creatures may even set an underworld record)


Chicken, I find it helps eases the difficult of making my creatures eat a more varied diet.

Depends:


Destroy Walls, If this spell is going to be put in it would have some kind of large downside to it.


Protect and Conceal, I think would be better suited as creature exclusive spells.


Debatable:

Must Obey, don’t recall using this one much when I had it.


Cave In (I seem to remember using this to keep enemy imps away from a gem block, other than that I don’t think I ever used it.
Can’t really comment since my memory really isn’t what it used to be:


Summon Horned Reaper, I wasn't really aware of this spells existence till the end of the game, so I can't really vouch for its effectiveness. Otherwise I'm really not sure about this one, since it has advantages and disadvantages.


Turncoat , I have limited knowledge for this spell, so I'm not really sure what stance to take.


Disease


Armageddon, I’m pretty sure I only used this spell once, can't remember what it did though...


Hold Audience


Thats is about all I can think of at the sleepy moment of time.

Evi
September 15th, 2010, 03:27
Can’t really comment since my memory really isn’t what it used to be:


Summon Horned Reaper, I wasn't really aware of this spells existence till the end of the game, so I can't really vouch for its effectiveness. Otherwise I'm really not sure about this one, since it has advantages and disadvantages.


Turncoat , I have limited knowledge for this spell, so I'm not really sure what stance to take.


Disease


Armageddon, I’m pretty sure I only used this spell once, can't remember what it did though...


Hold Audience


Thats is about all I can think of at the sleepy moment of time.

It's time for the Useless knowledge of Evi!
(I wanted to do this from boredom. I'll put my thoughts on the other spells tomorrow.)

Horned Reaper/ AKA. Horny Summon Tailsman: Like it says. Summon a unkillable Horned Reaper to wreak havoc on you're enemies. Costs alot of mana to summon, drains small amounts at first to LARGE amounts. Slap Horny! I want mah mana back!
Evi's Vote: Depends really for me. We're having Horny right? IMO, Horny should be a Campaign only Creature.

Turncoat: Make the enemy creature view you as it's friend, and it's friends as enemies! Lasts a limited amount of time.
Evi's Vote: I guess, but it should be a hard to get spell.

Disease: Um... It's a disease. Like poison. The effected Creature can spread the disease by just being near the others. Oh no! Chickenpox!
Evi's Vote: Undecided.

Armageddon: A small time limit is made, counting down to your doom. Once it hits Zero, ALL creatures, yours, and enemy keeper's are transported to your Dungeon Heart! Results may include destruction of your Dungeon Heart.
Evi's Vote: Yeah, it's fun to watch a massive battle with creatures on all sides duke it out!

Hold Audience: Enemy Fly attacking your Dungeon Heart? Quick! With this spell, you can teleport ALL of your minions to remove that pest!
Warning: Flies may lie eggs in your Dungeon Heart, please keep your doors closed and secure from all types of Insects.
Evi's Vote: I say yes for this one. Since we're limited to 8 pick ups, if my memory serves me right from that. So it would help out from a sudden attack on your Dungeon Heart.

===============
Evi's Summary
Yes
Armageddon
Hold Audience

Undecided
Turncoat
Disease

Debatable
Horny Summon

MeinCookie
September 15th, 2010, 04:30
My humble and hopefully unbiased opinion:


Fixed:

Create Imp
Essential for dungeon development and expansion as well as all menial tasks. Features in both games. Fixed.

Lightning/Thunderbolt
A good defensive inclusion for early on. I feel that the DKII incarnation was a bit understrength and too cheap, but non-the-less a useful spell on lone enemies that stray across your territories.

Possession
Too good to even contemplate throwing away. A great device not only in plot, but also that allows limitless development of mini-games ect. Useful for leading small assaults that require special handling.

Speed
Great for speeding dungeon development, research, training, manufacturing or just giving your creatures and edge. A crime that it wasn't included in DK 2.

Heal Creature/Heal
An essential battle spell. It is notably useful for torture and keeping your creatures up to strength in long battles or between the fighting when rivals are thick on the ground.

Tremor/Destroy Wall
I assume WftO will have impenetrable walls which gives need for at least one of these, preferably Tremor in my books, but either would do.

Turncoat
A useful battle spell for small skirmishes. Divide and Conquer.

Create Gold
Useful for games without gem seams when wealth becomes scare. Expensive in terms of Mana is kind of a must though.

Call-to-Arms
Necessary for the regimentation of troops and a major asset in deploying them. Extremely useful when battle stretches on. Keeps your troops focus.


Likely:

Sight of Evil
Not really necessary for the Dungeon Keeper i know and love. It isn't really as useful as it could be, restricted as it is by short field of vision. All the same, it has been in two DKs and has its moments.

Inferno
A powerful battle spell useful in the pitched combat later on. Should be expensive, but a fitting spell non-the-less.

Hold Audience
Useful for quick response to surprise attacks as well as getting your troops back to their base more quickly after a victory or during a rout.


Possible:

Conceal
I feel that this is more of a creature ability.

Protect
I feel that this is more of a creature ability.

Summon Horny
Depends highly on how the game is structured. Maybe only in the campaign.


Haven't the Foggiest:

Disease
A spell.

Armageddon
Another spell.

Cave-In
Yet another spell.

Sire
September 15th, 2010, 23:10
Under Construction...
Please Wait...

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u252/Sir_Mark_64/Other/Sense.jpg

Work's done.

MeinCookie
September 20th, 2010, 10:31
I don't remember Valkyrie paired with Archlich... I like that coupling - it fits.

DK Tentacle
October 2nd, 2010, 23:13
Defo make tentacles available, they're really unique and serve a function, shouldn't just be a neutral.
they could be a side effect of the temple, which mainly attract dark angels, but may attract a tentacle if water is visible

Sire
October 3rd, 2010, 01:45
Thread closed for lack of organization (Due to my failure, hard headiness at the time, and other things.)

Expect a better thread to be coming shortly.