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DragonsLover
September 19th, 2010, 10:41
I just compared between the original patched version of Dungeon Keeper and KeeperFX.

If I take a Level 10 Knight and compare his Defence value:

Level 1 : 30
Original DK : 124
KeeperFX : 84

Then, if I take a Level 10 Spider and compare his Dexterity value:

Level 1 : 60 (in Ancient Keeper campaign)
Original DK : 249
KeeperFX : 141

What happened? :confused: Shouldn't the values be the same?

I ask this, because I'm trying to bring some corrections to the AK campaign and I wonder which value I should take since they're now different.

edorien
September 19th, 2010, 12:56
i think there are two parts to this.

1. the ancient keeper files don't include the dexterity fix,
for a good reason (it would through the balance way of, especially on levels like harmony, thor's diplomat.)

2. i think you've stumbled across another bug regarding use of separate creature configs.

i'd say use the orignal dk values exclusively in that campaign

ie no alterations whatsoever as the entire campaign is built on exploiting oversights (the guard post trick, the cloning trick, etc) and undocumented features ( travelling over diagonals to water/lava )

Metal Gear Rex
September 19th, 2010, 16:22
I just compared between the original patched version of Dungeon Keeper and KeeperFX.

If I take a Level 10 Knight and compare his Defence value:

Level 1 : 30
Original DK : 124
KeeperFX : 84

Then, if I take a Level 10 Spider and compare his Dexterity value:

Level 1 : 60 (in Ancient Keeper campaign)
Original DK : 249
KeeperFX : 141

What happened? :confused: Shouldn't the values be the same?

I ask this, because I'm trying to bring some corrections to the AK campaign and I wonder which value I should take since they're now different.

Those must be changes in increase of value. Thing is, they seem like a smart move to me. A Spider having a dexterity of 249 at level 10? That's crazy, look how close it is to 255. Remember the limit of 255, and apparently, with the way they leveled before, they hit that limit quite fast. Therefore, a Level 10 Thief's wouldn't be too far from say a Level 10 Troll's, if not the same. Dexterity is something the Thief strived in, if I remember correctly. (I think it was 120 at level 1)

If they increase more slowly, then at level 10 they keep that difference. It makes things more balanced. If there wasn't a cap on Dexterity like that, then I'm sure Mefisto would remove it. Dexterity and Defense effect each other, as you obviously should already know, so it makes sense as to why they were both reduced in the level up amount.

What you really should try testing is if there is a difference in outcome of battles with these changes. If so, then there's a problem. Otherwise, I think it should be kept. I recommed the Barbarian :barb: and Orc :orc: for testing, for reasons of their dexterity/defense being somewhat close together. The Barbarian should lose due to the Orc's speed, no doubt, but let's see how much damage he can deal to the Orc before that. :P (Make sure you try level 10 too :P)

Though, just a note, you probably should change the Orc and Barbarian's Dexterity stats to their original values, or lower their Defense to fit the Dexterity changes.


i think there are two parts to this.

1. the ancient keeper files don't include the dexterity fix,
for a good reason (it would through the balance way of, especially on levels like harmony, thor's diplomat.)

Lol, you need to do a little searching yourself. The Ancient Keeper files ARE the same as in the original DK. Not even the dexterity is different. Also, I won't call it the Dexterity Fix until the Defense is lowered to fit the Dexterity changes. Last I checked, they weren't. (And last I checked was just now to be sure the values of Dexterity were untouched in Ancient Keeper)


i think you've stumbled across another bug regarding use of separate creature configs.

i'd say use the orignal dk values exclusively in that campaign

ie no alterations whatsoever as the entire campaign is built on exploiting oversights (the guard post trick, the cloning trick, etc) and undocumented features ( travelling over diagonals to water/lava )

That's how it is my frien-wait a minute, that sounds so out of character for me >.< (Use of words I mean :P)

Though yeah. Ancient Keeper is the same as the original DK, which is why DL used them for comparison. The difference is that the level-up amount is lower than in the original DK to help with the limit on the Dexterity value.

mefistotelis
September 19th, 2010, 20:09
/** Percentage of creature pay increase for every experience level. */
#define CREATURE_PAY_INCREASE_ON_EXP 35
/** Percentage of creature damage increase for every experience level. */
#define CREATURE_DAMAGE_INCREASE_ON_EXP 20
/** Percentage of spell range/area of effect increase for every experience level. */
#define CREATURE_RANGE_INCREASE_ON_EXP 6
/** Percentage of creature health increase for every experience level. */
#define CREATURE_HEALTH_INCREASE_ON_EXP 35
/** Percentage of creature strength increase for every experience level. */
#define CREATURE_STRENGTH_INCREASE_ON_EXP 35
/** Percentage of creature dexterity increase for every experience level. */
#define CREATURE_DEXTERITY_INCREASE_ON_EXP 15
/** Percentage of creature defense increase for every experience level. */
#define CREATURE_DEFENSE_INCREASE_ON_EXP 20
/** Percentage of creature parameter increase for every experience level.
* Used for all parameters that have no separate definition. */
#define CREATURE_PROPERTY_INCREASE_ON_EXP 35
The values may still change. Or I could put them in a config file instead of having them build into code.

DragonsLover
September 19th, 2010, 20:37
Okay, so the "Percentage of creature Defence and Dexterity increase" have been lowered.

When I did my unofficial patch before KeeperFX, I guess it was 35%, right? Remember, I once said that the maximum value for the Def and Dex to not exceed 255 at level 10 was 61 and I lowered the values based upon that value.

Now that the percentages have also been lowered, I had to check again what's the maximum value for Def and Dex at level 10 and alter all the values again.


The values may still change.

And when they will become "definitive"? I would have like to be warned of this before and I'd like to be warn in the future as well, please.


A Spider having a dexterity of 249 at level 10? That's crazy, look how close it is to 255.

Notice that 60 is close to the value 61 I mentioned earlier. So, it's totally correct that it's close to 255.

Metal Gear Rex
September 19th, 2010, 20:43
And when they will become "definitive"? I would have like to be warned of this before and I'd like to be warn in the future as well, please.

Probably once Mefisto can overcome the 255 limit on Dexterity. Then, the stats will go up like they did in the original DK1.


Notice that 60 is close to the value 61 I mentioned earlier. So, it's totally correct that it's close to 255.

Yeah but Defense still needs to be lowered before it helps anything :P