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DragonsLover
October 2nd, 2010, 22:31
In my unofficial patch, now under testing, I modified the Skeleton to make it a bit weaker than normally: I removed his Armour spell and exchanged Lightning for Missile and I even think of lowering his Health value. I also reduced the chance to get a Skeleton to 80% instead of 100%. Let me give my opinion.

Shouldn't the skeletons be some kind of "cannon fodder" like the ghost, where they simply act as weak extra creatures? Here, in some occasions, you can get so many of them that Dragons, Bile demons and other strong minions can become useless: the skeletons do all the job. It's especially true when they have the Lightning attack as it's one of the strongest offensive spells, which can cause multiple hits and cannot be reflected, which is not the case for the Missile spell. Similarly, because it's possible to get Skeletons in good numbers, attacking with Missile would reduce considerably the amount of things compared to a lightning bolt. Same goes for the sparks of the Armour spell.

About the health, if we compared the Skeleton to other creatures, he has more health than insects, troll, demon spawn, ghost, warlock, tunneller, thief, archer, wizard, monk, priestess and fairy... How does a bag a bones can get more health than creatures with a skin and muscles? Of course, he's undead, but still... For now, I'm hesitating to alter his health because it would change which heroes are worth becoming a Skeleton, excepted if you're in a level without a Torture Chamber, then it won't matter much.

How about you, now? What do you think of all that? Should the Skeleton be nerfed or not?

kyle
October 2nd, 2010, 22:47
I never noticed them being that great in comparison to things like mistresses and vampires, I generally don't imprison my foes unless I intend to convert them.

Metal Gear Rex
October 2nd, 2010, 23:18
In my unofficial patch, now under testing, I modified the Skeleton to make it a bit weaker than normally: I removed his Armour spell and exchanged Lightning for Missile and I even think of lowering his Health value. I also reduced the chance to get a Skeleton to 80% instead of 100%. Let me give my opinion.

80%? Isn't that a little too much? That kind of throws Vampires into advantage there, as now it is 8 Skeletons compared to 1 Vampire. Vampires are already pretty powerful, and at Level 10 can handle 8 level 10 Skeletons... especially with the Hailstorm you gave it...


Shouldn't the skeletons be some kind of "cannon fodder" like the ghost, where they simply act as weak extra creatures? Here, in some occasions, you can get so many of them that Dragons, Bile demons and other strong minions can become useless: the skeletons do all the job. It's especially true when they have the Lightning attack as it's one of the strongest offensive spells, which can cause multiple hits and cannot be reflected, which is not the case for the Missile spell. Similarly, because it's possible to get Skeletons in good numbers, attacking with Missile would reduce considerably the amount of things compared to a lightning bolt. Same goes for the sparks of the Armour spell.

Skeletons are NOT "cannon fodder". You get Skeletons because you want them, most of the time. It is pretty hard to be that careless to always get them by mistake. Ghosts at the most make good researchers and are good against most support creatures. But those creatures you mostly get by accident. What are you talking about Bile Demons becoming useless? Dragons I can understand, they are kinda weak with such low damage compared to their health, but Bile Demons own Skeletons. They're far from useless, you need a pretty large army of Skeletons to make Bile Demons useless... unless you're talking about the original stats. What I'm talking about is the changes you already made, plus if you make him lower health. Thing is, those Skeletons could be Heroes... imagine how overlypowerful they are?


About the health, if we compared the Skeleton to other creatures, he has more health than insects, troll, demon spawn, ghost, warlock, tunneller, thief, archer, wizard, monk, priestess and fairy... How does a bag a bones can get more health than creatures with a skin and muscles? Of course, he's undead, but still... For now, I'm hesitating to alter his health because it would change which heroes are worth becoming a Skeleton, excepted if you're in a level without a Torture Chamber, then it won't matter much.

What muscles? Those creatures you mentioned are either very weak or support creatures. They're not supposed to have high health. You failed to mention the Skeleton has an armor of 20. A Troll has higher armor... a Troll, a creature that is very crappy in combat. Skeletons barely stand their own in battle, and in large numbers, they're still not very good. They need to be a large mass of level 10 Skeletons in order to become useful. EVEN with Missile AND Navigating Missile, they're barely useful. I've tested this. Skeletons are meant for battle yes, but in large masses. Trolls are meant for Manufacturing. Demon Spawns... early on combat. They're children, remember that.


How about you, now? What do you think of all that? Should the Skeleton be nerfed or not?

Hell no. Swapping Lightning with something else is needed because that makes him broken. Removing Protect is slightly pushing it but exceptable, however an 80% chance for a Skeleton with lower health? Now we're talking DK2!

You're basically encouraging converting, or Vampires. Both which already is a bit overpowered (Converting is, Vampires not as much)

DragonsLover
October 3rd, 2010, 02:48
80%? Isn't that a little too much? That kind of throws Vampires into advantage there, as now it is 8 Skeletons compared to 1 Vampire. Vampires are already pretty powerful, and at Level 10 can handle 8 level 10 Skeletons... especially with the Hailstorm you gave it...

I can see the point you're saying. But here, don't forget that the chance to have a prisoner to die is random and is also kinda low. I simply wanted to reduce the amount of Skeletons you can get through the Prison. But if that sounds to be a bad idea, I can bring back the chance to 100% without problems. That's why I'm asking. And what's wrong with Hailstorm?


What are you talking about Bile Demons becoming useless? Dragons I can understand, they are kinda weak with such low damage compared to their health, but Bile Demons own Skeletons. They're far from useless, you need a pretty large army of Skeletons to make Bile Demons useless...

That's not really what I meant to say. If you can be able to get tons of Skeletons in your army (like in some Deeper Dungeons levels), you could mostly leave all your other creatures alone sleeping in their lairs and just bring the Skeletons for fights, owning mostly everything because of their huge amounts. If you have over 60 Skeletons for example, it is totally sufficient to beat the whole level without using the other types of creatures. That's what I meant.


Hell no. Swapping Lightning with something else is needed because that makes him broken. Removing Protect is slightly pushing it but exceptable, however an 80% chance for a Skeleton with lower health? Now we're talking DK2!

About Lightning, don't forget that it can do 3x damage on a motionless attacking creature. If you have like, say, 10 Skeletons attacking with Lightning, this means: 10 (Skeletons) x 20 (Lightning damage) x 3 (hits) = 600 damage, and it's only for a single Lightning attack for each Skeleton. With Missile, however, it removes the x3 so that the damage decreases to 200 this time, and can also be avoided with Rebound (which is not the case with Lightning). It sounds good to me. It avoids the whole load of Skeletons to be too strong. About Armour, a Skeleton has 25 when the spell is activated, compared to 20 without, which is not a so big difference, but present. The only other thing is that they won't become immune to Lightning anymore. If, again, it's troublesome, I can bring back that spell.

As for the Health, I once tried, and noticed it was indeed a bad idea. For now, it won't be changed at all.

Metal Gear Rex
October 3rd, 2010, 03:45
I can see the point you're saying. But here, don't forget that the chance to have a prisoner to die is random and is also kinda low. I simply wanted to reduce the amount of Skeletons you can get through the Prison. But if that sounds to be a bad idea, I can bring back the chance to 100% without problems. That's why I'm asking. And what's wrong with Hailstorm?

90 or 95% is good, based off of what I myself have tested. 100% isn't bad either, as long as Skeletons can be fixed.

Hailstorm isn't truly a problem, but on a Vampire it brings out certain complications. The first factor is that he doesn't need it. He's already quite strong. His Drain, Protect, and Heal combination make him quite long lasting in battle, especially with Slow. If the enemy is a Melee fighter, the slow will make him take a while to get to him, and even if he does, he deals enough damage to make him regret it. He's already strong, and possibly a bit imbalanced due to it only taking 10 bodies to get him. (Then again, he is very expensive, so unless you have a gem, it is unwise to be collecting a large number of these creatures)

The second is his resurrection. Due to the fact that Hail fires 15 (if my memory is correct) shots, that's 15x the experiance for melee creatures when they're up close. It doesn't even need 15x the experiance though, 5x the experiance is enough for it to make him broken. The stronger your forces are, the harder he is to kill. As he gains experiance, he'll level up again and then you'll have to kill him one more time. Not to mention, when he dies, all the experiance he had at the time is still kept, so it is easier for him to level up. And obviously at lower levels, he requires less experiance to level up, furthering his difficulty to kill.

I know this for a fact. I've witnessed three Dark Mistresses fight this monster of a creature. Two of them were level 10, one of them was level 6 at the least. The battle took place in his Lair... it took FOREVER to kill him. I have seen this quite a while back with FX.


That's not really what I meant to say. If you can be able to get tons of Skeletons in your army (like in some Deeper Dungeons levels), you could mostly leave all your other creatures alone sleeping in their lairs and just bring the Skeletons for fights, owning mostly everything because of their huge amounts. If you have over 60 Skeletons for example, it is totally sufficient to beat the whole level without using the other types of creatures. That's what I meant.

Well at that level of Skeletons, or an army in general of that size, you're kinda already done with the level. However, with Missiles, it is quite funny to imagine the sight of them killing themselves over a low level Ghost.


About Lightning, don't forget that it can do 3x damage on a motionless attacking creature. If you have like, say, 10 Skeletons attacking with Lightning, this means: 10 (Skeletons) x 20 (Lightning damage) x 3 (hits) = 600 damage, and it's only for a single Lightning attack for each Skeleton. With Missile, however, it removes the x3 so that the damage decreases to 200 this time, and can also be avoided with Rebound (which is not the case with Lightning). It sounds good to me. It avoids the whole load of Skeletons to be too strong. About Armour, a Skeleton has 25 when the spell is activated, compared to 20 without, which is not a so big difference, but present. The only other thing is that they won't become immune to Lightning anymore. If, again, it's troublesome, I can bring back that spell.

I wasn't attacking your statement on Lightning being replaced. If you remember back when I was asking for your help on my own patch, I also wanted to remove it. In fact, I think I was the first one of us who wanted to remove it.


Swapping Lightning with something else is needed because that makes him broken.

:P

Duke Ragereaver
October 3rd, 2010, 06:15
I can see the point you're saying. But here, don't forget that the chance to have a prisoner to die is random and is also kinda low. I simply wanted to reduce the amount of Skeletons you can get through the Prison. But if that sounds to be a bad idea, I can bring back the chance to 100% without problems.

Shoudn't that undermine the whole concept behind the Skeleton? I mean, I do see Skeleton a little better than cannonflodder, esspecialy when they are a way off from level 10, but I don't think this tactic will be hardly used in MP because very few Creatures can turn into Skeletons. When talking about SP, well, I just see it as another tactic the Player can choose from, especialy when the main opposition comes from Heroes, but how often do you use Skeletons then?? But I suppose the chance of 90% may be acceptable if the Player is okay with their weaknesses.

Skeletons are a little bit annoying because they fill up all the trainingsroom space, somewhat flimpsy in battle and because they are so fanatic in whatever their job is, plus they don't eat, it's not uncommon to see Skeletons with a 10-20% drop in their health.

Anyway, that's just how I see it. :skeleton:


How does a bag a bones can get more health than creatures with a skin and muscles?

Skeletons lack the organs to bleed. :)

DragonsLover
October 3rd, 2010, 17:12
Hailstorm isn't truly a problem, but on a Vampire it brings out certain complications. The first factor is that he doesn't need it. He's already quite strong. His Drain, Protect, and Heal combination make him quite long lasting in battle, especially with Slow. If the enemy is a Melee fighter, the slow will make him take a while to get to him, and even if he does, he deals enough damage to make him regret it. He's already strong, and possibly a bit imbalanced due to it only taking 10 bodies to get him. (Then again, he is very expensive, so unless you have a gem, it is unwise to be collecting a large number of these creatures)

And what do you do about Monks? They have most of the Vampire spells and they do have Hailstorm. So, why not the same thing for Vampires then?

And you must know that Hailstorm can be a curse for the Vampire with the Rebound spell. Indeed, I tried fighting a Vampire against a Drawf with Rebound and believe it or not, but the Dwarf got the advantage over the Vampire. Afaik, almost half of the heroes have the Rebound spell.


The second is his resurrection. Due to the fact that Hail fires 15 (if my memory is correct) shots, that's 15x the experiance for melee creatures when they're up close. It doesn't even need 15x the experiance though, 5x the experiance is enough for it to make him broken. The stronger your forces are, the harder he is to kill. As he gains experiance, he'll level up again and then you'll have to kill him one more time. Not to mention, when he dies, all the experiance he had at the time is still kept, so it is easier for him to level up. And obviously at lower levels, he requires less experiance to level up, furthering his difficulty to kill.

This is why I give the Hailstorm spell at level 10, moving the WOP spell at level 9. That way, he won't get experience points when fighting until being resurrected. There's just a single downside, I guess he still owns the Hailstorm spell after being resurrected at level 9. But once dropped at level 8, he won't get that spell anymore. We could make a fix to avoid the Vampire to "remember" the spells he got on the next level, so that Vampires will only get Hailstorm on level 10 ONLY.


I wasn't attacking your statement on Lightning being replaced. If you remember back when I was asking for your help on my own patch, I also wanted to remove it. In fact, I think I was the first one of us who wanted to remove it.

Okay, sorry. I simply misinterpreted your previous statement. >.<

Mothrayas
October 3rd, 2010, 18:53
I didn't bother to read all the discussion going on around here, so I'll just say "No".

Skeletons are not overpowered, they're frail and even Lightning barely balanced that out. I remember in one DD level trying to use an army of 10 or so level 10 Skeletons to beat a not too much smaller group of level 6-8 Barbarians (IIRC). They died, pretty quickly even.

Metal Gear Rex
October 3rd, 2010, 21:05
And what do you do about Monks? They have most of the Vampire spells and they do have Hailstorm. So, why not the same thing for Vampires then?

I think that's a bit of a poor excuse. Monks are melee creatures, not to mention they don't resurrect. Monks need to be able to deal that extra damage because they have other weakenesses. Have you checked their health? I personally believe he needs Rebound to add to himself being able to buff himself up, as well as to counter Rebound being used against him in that case. It seems fitting for him to reflect magic too, or possibly "evil magic" you could say, considering he's holy and all that.


And you must know that Hailstorm can be a curse for the Vampire with the Rebound spell. Indeed, I tried fighting a Vampire against a Drawf with Rebound and believe it or not, but the Dwarf got the advantage over the Vampire. Afaik, almost half of the heroes have the Rebound spell.

Soooo... are you trying to make the Vampire crappy against lesser Heroes and good against enemy Keepers? That's sorta a Skeleton effect there. Vampires already cost a lot of money to train that high of a level, I don't think that they should grow a great weakness because of it. Not to mention, the time it takes to train them.

It sounds like a downside the way you put it, and dealing a great deal of damage doesn't fit the Vampire's image very well either. He's supposed to be able to survive a long time against other units, that's why he's a Support Creature and not a Melee Creature, so he stays in the back of battle. His high Melee damage is only there because it makes logical sense for Vampire claws to deal great damage.

Hail is a very powerful spell, and with such a downside, it ruins his already made image of lasting a long time, if he's killing himself with his own Hailstorm attack. Do not forget that Vampires are already punished by opponents who hold Rebound by having Slow.

Warlocks would be more expected to receive such a spell, due to it causing a lot of damage and that seems to be the Warlock's identity, considering how low leveled he gets Meteor, one of the greatest attacks in Dungeon Keeper. But it should be fairly obvious to you that it is also a bad idea, as he'll become very overpowered. (Only the Fair deserves a number of powerful spells to balance out her crappy health)


This is why I give the Hailstorm spell at level 10, moving the WOP spell at level 9. That way, he won't get experience points when fighting until being resurrected. There's just a single downside, I guess he still owns the Hailstorm spell after being resurrected at level 9. But once dropped at level 8, he won't get that spell anymore. We could make a fix to avoid the Vampire to "remember" the spells he got on the next level, so that Vampires will only get Hailstorm on level 10 ONLY.

Word of Power is a Level 10 Spell, kinda is odd that the Vampire is getting special attention. Actually, I think he keeps all his spells when he resurrects, no matter how low leveled he drops. At least... that's how it USED to be. If you say he loses it after level 9, then it could be that this section has been tampered with, or, it was in the original game but I just never sucked enough to lose a level 10 Vampire.

I actually like how he remembers all his Spells though. It makes perfect sense. Once he learns them, he's not going to suddenly forget them because he dies. The thing is, in FX, (And maybe in the original game but I just never noticed) the damage their spells deal increases as they level. So basically, their spells just become weaker. They shouldn't forget the magic they learned, they're just getting weaker and can't use it as well.


I didn't bother to read all the discussion going on around here, so I'll just say "No".

Skeletons are not overpowered, they're frail and even Lightning barely balanced that out. I remember in one DD level trying to use an army of 10 or so level 10 Skeletons to beat a not too much smaller group of level 6-8 Barbarians (IIRC). They died, pretty quickly even.

I really find it hard to say as Skeletons are both overpowered and underpowered, due to the Lightning. The thing is, Hero maps are usually where you get an army of Skeletons. And Heroes you usually encounter with fewer numbers as well, so it is easier for Skeletons to gang up on them with Lightning. But also remember Barbarians are pretty tough, especially of those Levels. They have a health of 700 at Level 1, and Protect at that Level too, plus a high Dexterity. I'm not surprised the Skeletons lost.

Skeletons are probably the most imblanced creatures in the game, they're completely broken in some cases yet downright-sh*tty in others. But I do have an idea. Lightning definately needs to be taken away, replaced with Missile/Navigating Missile or something like that in order for them to become not possibly broken.

But what if we increase their Defense? That should at least make them more decent in Melee Battle to make them less wimpier, yet not totally broken. Their current Defense is 50, quite low. Perhaps increasing it to 70 or 75 would be good, no? I'll test this with my patch the next time I play Dungeon Keeper, which may be soon as really needs to work on them maps I have ideas for. >.>

PS: Mothrayas, the discussion was mainly about lowering the Skeleton's health, but DL decided against it. I also talked him out of some other things he did to the Skeleton. Lol, I feel like I conned him or something.

Mothrayas
October 3rd, 2010, 21:11
The way I see it Skeletons are supposed to be the glass cannons of the creatures. They pack a punch, but can't take it. That's why they have Lightning. Removing Lightning in favor of Missile and more defense just takes their uniqueness away.

It's also why they seem so shitty at times and so good at other times. If other creatures (e.g. Bile Demons) take the hits, they support with massive damage. If they're the ones taking the hits, they just die.

Metal Gear Rex
October 3rd, 2010, 23:20
The way I see it Skeletons are supposed to be the glass cannons of the creatures. They pack a punch, but can't take it. That's why they have Lightning. Removing Lightning in favor of Missile and more defense just takes their uniqueness away.

It's also why they seem so shitty at times and so good at other times. If other creatures (e.g. Bile Demons) take the hits, they support with massive damage. If they're the ones taking the hits, they just die.

Lightning is also why they're broken and why the Skeleton nerfing topic exists.

Mothrayas
October 4th, 2010, 14:12
It's also why they have crap health and defense to balance that out, making it not broken.

Either way, removing lightning just turns it from "balanced glass cannon" to "total piece of wreck why do you have this in the game".

Metal Gear Rex
October 4th, 2010, 19:34
It's also why they have crap health and defense to balance that out, making it not broken.

Either way, removing lightning just turns it from "balanced glass cannon" to "total piece of wreck why do you have this in the game".

Meh, insulting an idea for an adjustment without any real testing to backup your statement. How foolish. Especially when you're talking to someone who HAS tested it. -_-

DragonsLover
October 4th, 2010, 22:45
Fine then, I'll give that spell to the Ghost instead.

Shuffles
March 4th, 2011, 17:03
Skeletons normally only cast their lightning once before going into close combat, but you can make them spam lightning by picking them up and dropping them repeatedly.

Airandius
March 4th, 2011, 20:21
Removing lightning is nice, I never liked that aspect about a creature you can get when your portal no longer provides you with monsters.

But removing the armour spell and adding the missile spell makes no sense. I'd rather have them stay as pure melee fodder.
Give them armour at level 8, think of it as the skeleton remembering that he has a shield that he can use.

Pizu
March 4th, 2011, 21:29
Sure screw up the official gameplay even more.

DragonsLover
March 5th, 2011, 22:06
Posts removed for off-topicness.

By the way, Airandius, I tested removing "Lightning" and well, it just extremely sucks when you have like, say, 60 Skeletons dancing around a fight, looking at the 8 Skeletons fighting being damaged and killed. That's... just ugly.

Metal Gear Rex
March 6th, 2011, 00:29
By the way, Airandius, I tested removing "Lightning" and well, it just extremely sucks when you have like, say, 60 Skeletons dancing around a fight, looking at the 8 Skeletons fighting being damaged and killed. That's... just ugly.

He obviously hasn't even tested his own theory at all XD

But I think they should keep Lightning since Dragons have such high armor and can resist Lightning so well. It is Lightning's one weakness, so mabye it isn't so broken after all. It is just that nobody thought of what could be used against Lightning.

Airandius
March 6th, 2011, 01:05
He obviously hasn't even tested his own theory at all XD

But I think they should keep Lightning since Dragons have such high armor and can resist Lightning so well. It is Lightning's one weakness, so mabye it isn't so broken after all. It is just that nobody thought of what could be used against Lightning.

There are resistances in the game?

How about just making a lightning attack that is half as good as the regular lightning and give that to Skeletons. (Also yes I don't test anything, I'm too lazy for that.)

Metal Gear Rex
March 6th, 2011, 01:34
There are resistances in the game?

Armor has multiple functions.


How about just making a lightning attack that is half as good as the regular lightning and give that to Skeletons.

Lightning itself may be quite strong. Splitting it up half damage is no way to go however. Lightning only does 20 damage per hit, but it is multi-hit. Half the damage would be 10, and that would be so pathetically weak on an armored enemy it won't even be funny. It isn't just Dragons, it is other enemies that have decent armor that will suddenly become super effective against fighting Skeletons. A unit with too many weaknesses by a wide range of units is just too flawed to consider using, unless you like Skeletons so you can make bone jokes.


(Also yes I don't test anything, I'm too lazy for that.)

Then you should not be talking so big as it seems you don't know the game as well as you think you do.

dotted
March 6th, 2011, 13:01
(Also yes I don't test anything, I'm too lazy for that.)
Translation: Don't listen to me, I'm just a failed troll.

Airandius
March 6th, 2011, 13:18
I do not test things but I do know when things are way to strong. Just suggesting things that might improve things but instead I'm being flamed.
If that is how immature this forum is then I'll just take my bags.

Metal Gear Rex
March 6th, 2011, 13:42
I do not test things but I do know when things are way to strong. Just suggesting things that might improve things but instead I'm being flamed.

You didn't even know that Creatures with higher armor have more resistance to Lightning. You're constantly spreading around the "Skeletons are overpowered" idea, yet you don't even seem to know much information about Lightning, the thing that, according to you, makes them overpowered.

So it seems you really don't know when something is overpowered at all.


If that is how immature this forum is then I'll just take my bags.

Your response is immature. You're gonna leave a community cause you got some negative responses in one part of it, which is because of a mistake you made? And you're not even willing to accept it as your own mistake.

Airandius
March 6th, 2011, 18:04
Translation: Don't listen to me, I'm just a failed troll.

Sure MGR, this is so much more mature than my posts.

Metal Gear Rex
March 6th, 2011, 21:25
Sure MGR, this is so much more mature than my posts.

Still sounds more mature than leaving a community cause you got your feelings hurt. :fart:

DragonsLover
March 7th, 2011, 04:33
STOP NOW!

Topic closed.