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DragonsLover
September 15th, 2009, 00:29
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I was wondering, do you think the Dragon should have the Melee Attack ability along with its Flame Breath spell? The Dragon is the only creature where its Strength and Dexterity aren't used because the Flame Breath doesn't use those stats. The Flame Breath is considered as a "Melee spell" that uses its own data in the Keeper Spells, Shot and Instance tables contained in the Creature.txt/Dd1creat.txt. The "Melee attack ability" that every creature has is different. This one is considered as an "ability" because it also uses (excepted for the Spell table) data in the Creature Information table : Strength and Dexterity. And I somewhat can't accept that a Dragon can only cause 3 damage points each time it attacks. But of course, because the Dexterity isn't involved, it's a 100% chance to hit the enemy as it's a spell. But still... If we let a Dragon fight against an enemy Dragon, their health will decrease at the same rate, no one being stronger than the other. With a "Melee attack", it's different because the Dexterity varies. One of the Dragons would be able to become stronger than the other.

Some people disagree about that because it would make the Dragon "overpowered", but it's not totally true. I have recently changed the Dexterity values of every creature to make them hit more often. Because of that, the Dragon would become weaker on hits and would be more likely to die a little bit more often if we let it with the Flame Breath. This is why I gave the Melee Attack to the Dragon for compensation.

Still, I'd like to have your opinion about that. Vote, then answer.

Metal Gear Rex
September 15th, 2009, 02:04
Yes, they should but do to the fact that they already will be doing 3 damage every time, I think thier stats should be lowered. Perhaps decrease the Dextarity because they are slow, and maybe the strength by 10 (90 default if I'm correct)

Though by those standards, I still need to find out what it would be like. Remember what kind of unit the dragon is, so if you modify him for you patch you might want to toughen his defense more and maybe offense a little bit.

One thing you could do is increase dragon damage by 1 or 2. Remember that in the final defense, you can always possess the dragon and well...

Krizzie
September 15th, 2009, 05:57
There is a campaign pack I think it's lord Vexer's where dragons have melee attack along with fire breath. And they just owned the place. The max level was 7 and the dragon was killing hero's like they were training dolls.

I liked it, but I don't want it in every game, since they will be too strong.

dk2player
September 15th, 2009, 13:59
yeah, maybe they can have one or the other,. but both is just too overpowered. especially in possestion.

Pizu
September 15th, 2009, 20:11
I think it makes the dragon unique. It evolved from the Demon Spawn into the dragon so that makes it diffrent already. I think its fine this way.

Duke Ragereaver
September 17th, 2009, 09:32
Let's say if you didn't twig the creature stats at all, then I would say this is out of the question simply because dragons have a high raw damage potential. But to be honest, the dragon is as good as it is now, and I like it that way.

Krizzie
September 17th, 2009, 09:38
Dragons are great tanks, if you give them great attack power aswell you wouldnt need anymore creatures.

Besides in possesion you can use flame breath without recharge so they are a lot stronger.

DragonsLover
September 18th, 2009, 08:00
Dragons are great tanks, if you give them great attack power aswell you wouldnt need anymore creatures.

Melee attack isn't a "great attack power". And afaik, the "you wouldn't need anymore creatures" can be applied to excess of other creatures as well. Take the Mistresses, for example. If you can get a huge amount of high level Mistresses, they become unstoppable.

As for the Possession thing, everything is better under Possession mode anyway.

But still, I mean, Dragons have sharp teeth. They can bite. No? I could reduce their Dexterity to 0 so that, it would be very hard for them to hit enemies (but not doors).

Anyway, now, the little problem is that, my unofficial patch was partially based on this. I'll have to modify a level, change a few texts and everything will be fine.

Metal Gear Rex
September 18th, 2009, 11:29
I think they should know how to bite, if they can breathe fire. Yeah, their stats should be lowered. Dexterity=2, maybe decrease their strength a bit as it won't affect anything else.

Remember that Dragons are incredibly slow. Which means they are quite useless against ranged creatures. Unless they are level 7, which they can attack back with meteor. But I seriously found them annoyingly slow when I had 6 of them pathetically going after a level 6 archer. That's probably why they were made so slow, because imagine them faster...

Everything is better in possession, perhaps 'too good'. Missile is especially useful in possession, you can spam it and take out alot of creatures from a range. You can't do that with Dragon Flame Breath as Dragons are too slow. Good thing there can only be one in possession at a time, and you can't do much else.

I'll try playing with the dragon and see how he is with a few other creatures. I don't think he'll be overpowered if we take the right measures.

Krizzie
September 18th, 2009, 16:11
If you give melee then he will attack like a Hellhound, melee > flame > melee etc. that goes really fast. Lowering the chance to hit creatures or lowering his strenght will change too much imo.

Just keep them they way they are.

Same with the speed spell. as much as i want it to work properly on level 10 I also think it would be hugely unbalanced in the end. And changing/fixing/balancing everything would be wrong for the gameplay imo.

And if there is decided to implent these extra's make them optional, so people can choose to play oldskool or with the changes. :)

Metal Gear Rex
September 19th, 2009, 09:14
Changing the Dextarity and/or Strength won't affect anything else other than the melee weapon. If we were changing defense, then we'd be affecting him more.

DzjeeAr
September 19th, 2009, 17:17
The only argument I'd have against this notion is game balance, even though I personally care more about natural depiction than balance.

Natural depiction dictates Dragons -should- be able to use claws or teeth or whatever, so yes I'd say, give it to them.

Balance can be created in different ways, such as making them rare or difficult to obtain, making them cost a -lot- of gold, and / or very cranky.

The last thing you want is a single-unit army like DK2 had.

Metal Gear Rex
September 20th, 2009, 10:24
Though, CTA will take forever for them to actually reach the enemy. Lol:dragon:

dragonfist
November 8th, 2009, 02:45
I just use Dragons to stop the enemy. Than throw in melee and other attacks, where the dragons enforce troops that I throw after them, using their health spell and high dextery to stay alive longer than other creatures. They can be strengtened by speed and armor spell, or heal if you have to much money.

If you seek a new balance, the other creatures role should be considered.

Necror
August 14th, 2010, 20:37
well they don't have arms and and the melee anim doesn't look like bite so no

Metal Gear Rex
August 14th, 2010, 22:21
well they don't have arms and and the melee anim doesn't look like bite so no

nah, has nothing to do with that. Dragons just become too powerful with melee.