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View Full Version : Development - HQX enhancement inside KeeperFX ?



Chr!x
February 20th, 2011, 09:49
Hi.

On DK.NET, someone ask us some questions (http://dungeon-keeper.net/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=53&func=view&catid=24&id=28668#28668) about using HQX technologies with DK / KeeperFX.

Considering Google Code sources (http://code.google.com/p/hqx/) of this lib, Mefistotelis, is it possible on include HQX enhancement in near KeeperFX release ? Should be easier to add instead of re-making new textures & sprites, and make a closer look to DK original spirit.

Mothrayas
February 20th, 2011, 12:29
I'd want to see a comparison image of 640x480 KeeperFX vs HQ2x or HQ3x (1280x960 or 1920x1440 respectively) first. HQX may look nice, but we'd need to see if it works first.

EDIT: I tried out HQ4x'ing a screenshot, and HQX doesn't seem to make much of a difference.

kyle
February 20th, 2011, 14:05
I would love to see a comparison image.

Chr!x
February 20th, 2011, 16:21
Before :
http://dungeon-keeper.net/images/stories/blog/dk-mac-13.jpg

After:
http://dungeon-keeper.net/images/stories/blog/dk-mac-14.jpg

Lest shaper pixel on textures. I think something must be try with this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hqx).

Before :
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Test_nn.png

After :
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Test_hq3x.png

Khashul
February 20th, 2011, 16:51
Wow, looks really good, would love to see something like this implemented if just for the larger resolutions.

mefistotelis
February 20th, 2011, 16:55
About the DOSBox screenshots: naming them "before" and "after" is misleading; the 2nd one is just DK in 640x400, and the first one is 320x200 with use of HQ2x.

Anyway, I can't see any benefits of using the filtering in KeeperFX. What we need for KeeperFX is high resolution sprites, not interpolation. The HQ filtering is great for playing games which do not have higher resolution rendering; KeeperFX has.

Mothrayas
February 20th, 2011, 17:03
Also, HQx only really works well with games with no advanced lighting of any sort and a relatively small color palette - think like Gameboy Advance quality at best. KeeperFX is a step above that, so HQx won't be nearly as effective there.

EDIT: on the other hand, it may work well for improving sprites. Compare:

Left: standard 4x resized dragon, right: HQ4x resized dragon

http://i56.tinypic.com/cj4at.jpg

Chr!x
February 20th, 2011, 21:35
About the DOSBox screenshots: naming them "before" and "after" is misleading; the 2nd one is just DK in 640x400, and the first one is 320x200 with use of HQ2x.


You're right... partially :)

On second screenshot, there is really a scaling effect, despite it's in 640px wide. I write few months ago an article on DKNET for running DK over DosBOX for MacOSX (http://dungeon-keeper.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=180:dungeon-keeper-sous-macos-x&catid=46:univers-dungeon-keeper&Itemid=86). Inside DOSBOX.CONF, I use "scaler=advmame3x" parameter : "smooths corners and removes jaggies from diagonal lines" (see here (http://www.dosbox.com/wiki/Dosbox.conf) for more infos). This parameter is very closer to "hq2x | hq3x" rendering, also supported by DosBOX.

But if hq2x | hq3x | hq4x rendering aren't very usefull for KeeperFX, may be some other ones exists (http://www.dosbox.com/wiki/Scaler) for enhancing gfx without having to re-create new sprites & textures, nope ? :(



Left: standard 4x resized dragon, right: HQ4x resized dragon

How do you get this ? Can you test some other rendering effects instead of this one ?

Mothrayas
February 20th, 2011, 21:48
You're right... partially :)

On second screenshot, there is really a scaling effect, despite it's in 640px wide. I write few months ago an article on DKNET for running DK over DosBOX for MacOSX (http://dungeon-keeper.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=180:dungeon-keeper-sous-macos-x&catid=46:univers-dungeon-keeper&Itemid=86). Inside DOSBOX.CONF, I use "scaler=advmame3x" parameter : "smooths corners and removes jaggies from diagonal lines" (see here (http://www.dosbox.com/wiki/Dosbox.conf) for more infos). This parameter is very closer to "hq2x | hq3x" rendering, also supported by DosBOX.

But if hq2x | hq3x | hq4x rendering aren't very usefull for KeeperFX, may be some other ones exists (http://www.dosbox.com/wiki/Scaler) for enhancing gfx without having to re-create new sprites & textures, nope ? :(

So, we still can't see HQx's effects because you placed two incomparable images as a comparison (one of DK's 320x200 mode and one of DK's 640x400 mode). Can we now get a real comparison of HQx's effects? I doubt HQ2x can turn 320x200 DK into looking identically to 640x400 DK.



How do you get this ? Can you test some other rendering effects instead of this one ?

Well, I basically took a Dragon sprite and ran it in a HQ4x upscaler.

I don't have any other specific rendering utilities, but any of them do either this, blur them, or do a combination of both.

If you want to try out other renders, then try them out yourself.

theleo_ua
February 20th, 2011, 22:22
I agree with commentators, but let me show you my comparison pics:

This is original keeper:

http://i15.fastpic.ru/big/2011/0221/7d/5bcb8b892eb33a9f583029c4e40b437d.png

http://i15.fastpic.ru/big/2011/0221/11/36f58ee60d5802cbe40677734d3d7d11.png

This is keeper with direct 3d patch (same sprites, same textures):

http://i15.fastpic.ru/big/2011/0221/12/b190d1be8e610ed5db54c4fdff270212.png

http://i15.fastpic.ru/big/2011/0221/1f/dac6a56484e3b5445de216f860fde01f.png

Please pay special attention to keeper's hand, horned reaper in keeper's hand and user interface (for eample - "rooms tab" icon). I think "modern" versions looks much better.


This is original Strife in 1600x1200:

http://i15.fastpic.ru/big/2011/0221/0b/3bf05f62258a3041beb74435d5372d0b.png

This is Strife with HQ4x in opengl in 1600x1200:

http://i15.fastpic.ru/big/2011/0221/5b/7649904b8a9bfd8772202676aa6dd75b.png


So - what we have now:

1) Direct 3d patch uses same sprites and textures, as original keeper95.exe do.
2) "Strife" hq4x version uses same sprites and textures, as original version do.
3) Imho Strife and DK looks much better with direct3d\hq4x renders
4) Hi res sprites is good idea too.


Questions:

1) Can KeeperFX handle direct 3d patch and fix "mouse lags" and other artifacts in it?
2) If no - can KeeperFX use own opengl or direct 3d algorithms for best usage with future hi res sprites\textures and high basic screen resolutions?

I think (judging on my screenshots) that better graphics is possible even without hi res sprites. Also, this scaling algorithms can be applied directly to sprites\textures.


And for those who already uploaded screenshots in this topic:

Please reupload them in scaled 1600x1200 mode for example
(because when I see this 640x480 images in my 1600x1200 desktop - they are too small, and it is hard to see the difference, but when I play DK in 1600x1200 in fullscreen - there are much larger "squares" in sprites\textures\user interface\keeper's hand).


Anyway, big thanks to KeeperFX creators and keeper community - you did a lot of hard and efficient work.

theleo_ua
February 20th, 2011, 22:32
Cant post entire message, so posted it in another forum

Here is the link:

http://dungeon-keeper.net/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=53&func=view&catid=24&id=28668&limit=6&limitstart=6

Sorry for the inconvenience

A New Room
February 21st, 2011, 00:01
I would say the normal DK screens look a lot better, just based on the fact that they aren't blurred. Text in DK is also important so being able to view that clearly would be preferable.

682

I would not be able to guess that Reaper was level 8 from the picture on the right taken from the screenshot you posted.

theleo_ua
February 21st, 2011, 10:44
I would say the normal DK screens look a lot better, just based on the fact that they aren't blurred. Text in DK is also important so being able to view that clearly would be preferable.

682

I would not be able to guess that Reaper was level 8 from the picture on the right taken from the screenshot you posted.

yes - you right - current direct 3d patch contain bugs and ugly font, but this is not problem of algorithm imho - this is problem of the patch