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View Full Version : 0.38c flying creature bug. and imp issue.



HellsFait
March 2nd, 2011, 06:07
Bug reporting without save files...sorry.

Whenever a group of flying creatures spawns from the hero portal, they get stuck in the ceiling. I really should have gotten a save, but unfortunately...I'm dumb and didn't get it.

The creatures can be killed, but you either need a dragon, because the AI dragon can shoot his fire straight up apparently, or you need to be very accurate with a long range attack. I just use a spider and spam hail from a-far, but it's hard to hit them when they're half way INSIDE the damn roof.
That's not the only problem though, the creatures that are stuck in the ceiling are able to move...sort of, and they can attack if you're close enough.

I've only seen this happen with Flies and Fairies.
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Imps are mildly brain damaged...and hate doors. I can't re-create this one faithfully, but when there is a large area to claim, the imps will miss a square, and just leave it. Despite there being no other jobs to do, the damn imp will stand there smoking ON THE UNCLAIMED TILE, I slap him...nothing, I had one bad case where I had to take the square manually, because no imp wanted to do the job.

Now about the doors. I've seen my imps charge across a map, to attack a door. No reason why from what I could tell, but they all just ignored what I told them to do, and wanted that door GONE. I had to build my own door and lock it to get them to stop.

One more while I'm thinking about it. Imps won't carry bodies to the graveyard by themselves. Not that I've seen anyway, every time something died, I had to drop my imps on the dead guys to get them to take the bodies. There could be an imp standing right on top of the dead thing, it won't do a damn thing with it, but, once I tell an imp to take one body, it will go back for more until the job is done.

Metal Gear Rex
March 2nd, 2011, 06:20
Bug reporting without save files...sorry.

Whenever a group of flying creatures spawns from the hero portal, they get stuck in the ceiling. I really should have gotten a save, but unfortunately...I'm dumb and didn't get it.

The creatures can be killed, but you either need a dragon, because the AI dragon can shoot his fire straight up apparently, or you need to be very accurate with a long range attack. I just use a spider and spam hail from a-far, but it's hard to hit them when they're half way INSIDE the damn roof.
That's not the only problem though, the creatures that are stuck in the ceiling are able to move...sort of, and they can attack if you're close enough.

I've only seen this happen with Flies and Fairies.

This is a known problem in the original DK. It should be fixed definately, as it is very annoying. In my first playthrough of Dk1, I couldn't beat the final level cause a Fairy got stuck in the ceiling and I didn't know about it until an Imp died, which was about half an hour after deaing with the main invasions.


Imps are mildly brain damaged...and hate doors. I can't re-create this one faithfully, but when there is a large area to claim, the imps will miss a square, and just leave it. Despite there being no other jobs to do, the damn imp will stand there smoking ON THE UNCLAIMED TILE, I slap him...nothing, I had one bad case where I had to take the square manually, because no imp wanted to do the job.

This is also a known problem in the original DK1. I'm not exactly sure on the details, but I think it happens later game or something.


Now about the doors. I've seen my imps charge across a map, to attack a door. No reason why from what I could tell, but they all just ignored what I told them to do, and wanted that door GONE. I had to build my own door and lock it to get them to stop.

I think they're trying to get to something and the Door is blocking the way, so they're trying to destroy it. An example is mining gold or something, maybe even claiming land.


One more while I'm thinking about it. Imps won't carry bodies to the graveyard by themselves. Not that I've seen anyway, every time something died, I had to drop my imps on the dead guys to get them to take the bodies. There could be an imp standing right on top of the dead thing, it won't do a damn thing with it, but, once I tell an imp to take one body, it will go back for more until the job is done.

I really dunno about this one. You're gonna need a savefile definately.

Krizzie
March 2nd, 2011, 10:05
About the door thingy,

If there is a route behind the door which connects back to your dungeon, even if there is a complete hero fortress between it, they sometimes choose that route instead of the known route. And will destroy every door they encounter until they get back to the dungeon. I've lost a few games cause of that. They break in a door and a big level 10 hero party drops from the ceiling, which I wasn't prepared for. :X

Imps not dragging bodies to the graveyard, I'm not sure if they ever did that automatically? It would be nice if they did though, cause I love vampires and it's kinda annoying to drop them each time. :P

Metal Gear Rex
March 2nd, 2011, 10:42
Imps not dragging bodies to the graveyard, I'm not sure if they ever did that automatically? It would be nice if they did though, cause I love vampires and it's kinda annoying to drop them each time. :P

They do. That's how you can lose Imps, because they're willing to wander into enemy territory to claim bodies.

naton9
March 2nd, 2011, 16:32
imps are supposed to drag back bodies but they will not do that on their own for me either. if i dont drop a imp on the body imps will ignore the body intill it disappears. it gets annoying after a while. i do think its cheap however that you can kill off some of your own imps to create a vampire- kind of wish there was a way to set it to only allow enemy dead bodies to be taken back to the graveyard

Metal Gear Rex
March 2nd, 2011, 16:58
imps are supposed to drag back bodies but they will not do that on their own for me either. if i dont drop a imp on the body imps will ignore the body intill it disappears. it gets annoying after a while. i do think its cheap however that you can kill off some of your own imps to create a vampire- kind of wish there was a way to set it to only allow enemy dead bodies to be taken back to the graveyard

Are your Imps busy with something else? Also, yeah, I don't like how you can kill your own Imps for Vampires. Pretty cheap, the only time I happen to use that is not really intentional. It is when my Imps die to enemy Traps and then they bring the bodies back to the Graveyard. I wonder if Mefisto can make some kind of special trait on a Creature which prevents their body from being used to create a Vampire. That would really get rid of that cheap tactic, since it isn't always used iintentionally.

Ogre
March 2nd, 2011, 17:04
Are your Imps busy with something else? Also, yeah, I don't like how you can kill your own Imps for Vampires. Pretty cheap, the only time I happen to use that is not really intentional. It is when my Imps die to enemy Traps and then they bring the bodies back to the Graveyard. I wonder if Mefisto can make some kind of special trait on a Creature which prevents their body from being used to create a Vampire. That would really get rid of that cheap tactic, since it isn't always used iintentionally.

Yea, but still be able to take enemy imps to the graveyard. But still, will probably be easier to not allow all imp corpses to be carried.. And make them decompose faster. If it dosent take a complete re-write of the system :s

Krizzie
March 2nd, 2011, 17:12
It might be an idea to make an extra button for the corpses. Like you can imprison people or not. It will save some imps which will suicide themselves for deadbodies. :P

Not counting imp bodies is a good idea too.

Metal Gear Rex
March 2nd, 2011, 17:38
Not counting imp bodies is a good idea too.

Yes, considering how easy it is to kill them. Not only that, but you can create a lot of Ghosts from Enemy Imps. Plus when you torture them, you gain a lot of information quick.

Krizzie
March 2nd, 2011, 17:44
I rarely make ghosts, usually I keep the imps imprisoned, cause the AI wont make new ones then. Else I convert them. And make use of the extra information. ;)

Airandius
March 2nd, 2011, 21:07
The best solution is to have dead imps explode or something. Not having a corpse at all.
Imprisoning still works because they don't actually die when you do that.

(Seeing how they are magical creatures and not flesh and bone creatures it makes sense for them to disappear upon death.

Metal Gear Rex
March 2nd, 2011, 21:30
Imprisoning still works because they don't actually die when you do that.

Yet from there they can be tortured, in which there's a problem as they give away a lot of enemy information.


(Seeing how they are magical creatures and not flesh and bone creatures it makes sense for them to disappear upon death.

Well that wasn't established until DK2 I think.

Airandius
March 2nd, 2011, 22:10
Yet from there they can be tortured, in which there's a problem as they give away a lot of enemy information.

Well that wasn't established until DK2 I think.

I thought people liked that? It could also work that imprisoning them is inpossible, they die when imprisoning as well.

(Also getting an imp is by usage of a spell, sure it does not use mana but it can be considered magic.)

Metal Gear Rex
March 3rd, 2011, 00:26
I thought people liked that?

It is very easy/cheap information as Imps are extremely easy to capture, and they have very loose tongues.


It could also work that imprisoning them is inpossible, they die when imprisoning as well.

I was thinking maybe their body isn't draggable. Some kind of special property like I mentioned earlier.


(Also getting an imp is by usage of a spell, sure it does not use mana but it can be considered magic.)

Imps in DK1 are made of gold, because that's what is used to power Spells there. This is why they mine, because they know the gold is like them, but they think it is defected versions of them, which is why they're in blocks instead of Imp Form. So they get mad, and try to break it. They like to horde the pieces of gold in the Treasury after broken. It is sorta like a trophy room to them. Now do you understand?

Airandius
March 3rd, 2011, 14:42
Imps in DK1 are made of gold, because that's what is used to power Spells there. This is why they mine, because they know the gold is like them, but they think it is defected versions of them, which is why they're in blocks instead of Imp Form. So they get mad, and try to break it. They like to horde the pieces of gold in the Treasury after broken. It is sorta like a trophy room to them. Now do you understand?

That made me smile, Never looked at it that way. :P

I still stick with that it is magic, but instead of being powered with mana it was powered with gold. There is no real definition of magic to begin with, so anyone can put up a theory and be right.

Krizzie
March 3rd, 2011, 14:53
Well I don't think it's magic.

In DK2 if you run out of mana you run out of imps, they die if you can't sustain manaflow.

In DK1 if you run out of gold, your Imps stay alive.

Besides, they bleed when they die, so they are organic creatures. :P

Metal Gear Rex
March 3rd, 2011, 17:11
Anyways, to prevent this discussion from going really off topic, (regretably started by me though you choose what you decide to reply to) let's just leave it as something that doesn't matter because the fact is, there's an abusive strategy with Imp bodies being able to create Vampires. This should be fixed by Imp bodies not being dragable or something similar, perhaps some special property like "UNDRAGABLE_BODY".

And if abusive strategies isn't enough reason for this to be done, this also occurs often by accident when encountering Lightning Traps.

Mefisto, your thoughts?

mefistotelis
March 3rd, 2011, 17:31
the fact is, there's an abusive strategy with Imp bodies being able to create Vampires. This should be fixed by Imp bodies not being dragable or something similar, perhaps some special property like "UNDRAGABLE_BODY".

And if abusive strategies isn't enough reason for this to be done, this also occurs often by accident when encountering Lightning Traps.

Exectly what I was thinking. I'm going to introduce the new property - but its name will have something to do with rotting instead of dragging (the routine which selects dead bodies for graveyard is named corpse_is_rottable()).

As about other bugs - would be nice to have a saved game, ie. just before the fairies are spawned in ceiling.

naton9
March 4th, 2011, 02:00
you will never be able to completely solve the problem of players making vampires from their dead. you can slap weak units to death like flys and beetles and spam vampires that way though only up to your unit limit which is not NEARLY as abusive as sacrificing your imps which would lead to endless creatures above your limit.

Im all for not dragging imps back to graveyard and I think its the best fix. Another idea would be that the higher the level the monster the more it would count toward making a vampire. Low levels would take waaay too long wasting time and units to make a vampire and player would be very unlikely to kill off some of his/her higher level units just to make a level 1 vampire. Attacking a keeper with a developed army would be the best way to make vampires.

Metal Gear Rex
March 4th, 2011, 05:49
you will never be able to completely solve the problem of players making vampires from their dead. you can slap weak units to death like flys and beetles and spam vampires that way though only up to your unit limit which is not NEARLY as abusive as sacrificing your imps which would lead to endless creatures above your limit.

Not only that but you would have to wait for the Creatures to appear from the Portal. By the time you get the graveyard, there's hardly any weak units left. Besides, it probably is so slow that it is counter productive.

HellsFait
March 4th, 2011, 06:41
As long as we're discussing cheap methods of play at the moment, I would like to add one.
Using Site of Evil, along with Destroy Walls, is an easy and safe way to map out unknown area without leaving your dungeon open to attacks. Site of evil any ol' place with regular rock, destroy a block with Destroy Walls, drop an Imp in on the unclaimed land, and dig away.
Come to think of it, you can also nuke things with lightning while using Sight of evil, so you can clear a room before going into it...

Krizzie
March 4th, 2011, 07:58
About the sight of evil spell, that was mentioned before. I agree that you shouldn't be able to cast spells through that.

DragonsLover
March 5th, 2011, 21:47
Whenever a group of flying creatures spawns from the hero portal, they get stuck in the ceiling. I really should have gotten a save, but unfortunately...I'm dumb and didn't get it.

The creatures can be killed, but you either need a dragon, because the AI dragon can shoot his fire straight up apparently, or you need to be very accurate with a long range attack. I just use a spider and spam hail from a-far, but it's hard to hit them when they're half way INSIDE the damn roof.
That's not the only problem though, the creatures that are stuck in the ceiling are able to move...sort of, and they can attack if you're close enough.

I've only seen this happen with Flies and Fairies.

This is a known bug that existed since the beginning. This is a thing that should be fixed indeed.


Imps are mildly brain damaged...and hate doors. I can't re-create this one faithfully, but when there is a large area to claim, the imps will miss a square, and just leave it. Despite there being no other jobs to do, the damn imp will stand there smoking ON THE UNCLAIMED TILE, I slap him...nothing, I had one bad case where I had to take the square manually, because no imp wanted to do the job.


This is also a known problem in the original DK1. I'm not exactly sure on the details, but I think it happens later game or something.

Nope. This bug hasn't been in the original game. I have never seen such thing after all those years. It's really an issue in KeeperFX since I got the same thing as well, on the last level of the original campaign. There was a square that imps couldn't claim, even by dropping them next to it. I guess it's related to doors. As you may probably know, doors are made of two things : a "physical" door composed of textured blocks and a "thing" door that is represented as an invisible thing that tells creatures that there's an obstacle. It may happen that when a door is destroyed, the "thing" remains while the physical one has been destroyed. To fix that thing, destroy one of the walls that support the door and imps will stop ignoring the tile and be able to claim it.


Now about the doors. I've seen my imps charge across a map, to attack a door. No reason why from what I could tell, but they all just ignored what I told them to do, and wanted that door GONE. I had to build my own door and lock it to get them to stop.

It may happens when there's a bag of gold on an unclaimed tile or when there's a claimed tile of YOUR dungeon far away on the other side. This generally happens on "Elf's dance" with the Blue Keeper. Imps will start attacking the door since your dungeon is connected in the tunnel at the far west of the map. In these cases, you have no choice to either leave them destroy the door, use a Lava trap and wait for the enemy imp to trigger it or place a locked door.


One more while I'm thinking about it. Imps won't carry bodies to the graveyard by themselves. Not that I've seen anyway, every time something died, I had to drop my imps on the dead guys to get them to take the bodies. There could be an imp standing right on top of the dead thing, it won't do a damn thing with it, but, once I tell an imp to take one body, it will go back for more until the job is done.

I already reported that one myself. And I'm not glad to see that it hasn't been fixed in Keeper FX 38c as well... :(


Yet from there they can be tortured, in which there's a problem as they give away a lot of enemy information.

You can alter the Imp's "Torture time" value and they'll stop giving informations quickly BUT they will also won't be able to join you quickly and therefore, you'll have a greater chance to make ghosts of them. For now, it's balanced, but you have choice between making them as ghosts or making them to reveal information and join you extremely quickly. You decide.

And about Imps being made of magic or gold, I really consider them to be created by magic. Sure, we use gold and not mana, but we use gold to PAY the spell. And spells, that's magic. Therefore, I agree with Airandius: I prefer the DK2's way. Since Imps are created by magic, then when they die, they should "magically" disappear. That way, they can't be captured and they can't be used to create vampires. Same thing should apply to Skeletons, but it's less dramatical.

Anyway, where's the f***ing problem? I don't care how Imps are made, sustained, if they're made of gold of mana, that's not the point. Here, it's about GAMEPLAY. It's about "finding a way to avoid using Imps bodies for feeding the Graveyard, the Prison and the Torture Chamber to avoid the easiness of Vampires and Ghosts creation, but also to avoid them to easily reveal the enemy's dungeon". Nothing else.

Metal Gear Rex
March 6th, 2011, 00:38
Nope. This bug hasn't been in the original game. I have never seen such thing after all those years. It's really an issue in KeeperFX since I got the same thing as well, on the last level of the original campaign. There was a square that imps couldn't claim, even by dropping them next to it. I guess it's related to doors. As you may probably know, doors are made of two things : a "physical" door composed of textured blocks and a "thing" door that is represented as an invisible thing that tells creatures that there's an obstacle. It may happen that when a door is destroyed, the "thing" remains while the physical one has been destroyed. To fix that thing, destroy one of the walls that support the door and imps will stop ignoring the tile and be able to claim it.

I've encountered a similar error before in Deeper Dungeons a few times, and I think I recall reading about something similar but it would appear we're not talking abuot the same bug.


It may happens when there's a bag of gold on an unclaimed tile or when there's a claimed tile of YOUR dungeon far away on the other side. This generally happens on "Elf's dance" with the Blue Keeper. Imps will start attacking the door since your dungeon is connected in the tunnel at the far west of the map. In these cases, you have no choice to either leave them destroy the door, use a Lava trap and wait for the enemy imp to trigger it or place a locked door.

Or we can go with the theory that Imps HATE doors for blocking their paths :D


You can alter the Imp's "Torture time" value and they'll stop giving informations quickly BUT they will also won't be able to join you quickly and therefore, you'll have a greater chance to make ghosts of them. For now, it's balanced, but you have choice between making them as ghosts or making them to reveal information and join you extremely quickly. You decide.

That doesn't sound very balanced to me :/


And about Imps being made of magic or gold, I really consider them to be created by magic. Sure, we use gold and not mana, but we use gold to PAY the spell. And spells, that's magic. Therefore, I agree with Airandius: I prefer the DK2's way. Since Imps are created by magic, then when they die, they should "magically" disappear. That way, they can't be captured and they can't be used to create vampires. Same thing should apply to Skeletons, but it's less dramatical.

Erm, it was a joke at the end of a post. But it seems nobody got it, oh well.


Anyway, where's the f***ing problem? I don't care how Imps are made, sustained, if they're made of gold of mana, that's not the point. Here, it's about GAMEPLAY. It's about "finding a way to avoid using Imps bodies for feeding the Graveyard, the Prison and the Torture Chamber to avoid the easiness of Vampires and Ghosts creation, but also to avoid them to easily reveal the enemy's dungeon". Nothing else.

Yes I know, I already pointed that part out earlier.


Anyways, to prevent this discussion from going really off topic, (regretably started by me though you choose what you decide to reply to) let's just leave it as something that doesn't matter because the fact is, there's an abusive strategy with Imp bodies being able to create Vampires. This should be fixed by Imp bodies not being dragable or something similar, perhaps some special property like "UNDRAGABLE_BODY".

And if abusive strategies isn't enough reason for this to be done, this also occurs often by accident when encountering Lightning Traps.