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Mistressmaster
March 24th, 2011, 14:56
It's always bugged me how these first three doors are far, far weaker than magic doors. In maps with magic doors the other three become immediately redundant and good for nothing besides selling. Wood and braced can be destroyed by even imps in a few hits, and iron (about a foot's thickness of pure metal) isn't much better when strong heroes come knocking.
My suggestion is that they are made more balanced in a future patch if possible? I think it's fair because, really now:o a thick iron door isn't going to collapse after a few knocks and spells. And magic doors were intended to be weak to spells but they can handle more than any other.

Skyman
March 24th, 2011, 15:03
Well the Iron door is strong enough if you ask me.

The wooden door needs to be weak and easily produced so you can seal off your rooms to increase efficiency (thats how I use it).

Perhaps the Braced Door should be a little bit stronger and the magic door a little bit weaker?

That's my view on DK1 door balance

Am i right?

Mistressmaster
March 24th, 2011, 15:12
Melee defense wise, the iron door should at least be on par with the magic door, just a lot less resistant to magic. For what it's made of the iron door is way too flimsy. Picture a single level 10 thief and think how quickly he'd topple one, imo it's too quick.

Skyman
March 24th, 2011, 15:44
How many hits would he need do you reckon? 20? 30?

Mistressmaster
March 24th, 2011, 16:02
I guessed 15 and l was right, lol :D I know too much about this game:o Anyway, 15 hits for one thief. Using the example of thieves, they usually kick about in gangs of three minimum maybe? So sped up that's five rapid hits each and they wreak a solid plate of iron with their stupid little butter knives.

Skyman
March 24th, 2011, 16:17
How about coding damage to door in percentages, is this possible?

Units with clubs, hammers, maces, fists etc (IMPACT DAMAGE) do bonus damage to doors and units with ranged attacks, magic attacks and slice weapons (dagger, blades, swords) do normal damage against doors.

Around this the door strenghts should be rebalanced.

I don't know if this is possible though :P

Krizzie
March 24th, 2011, 22:17
I kinda agree but I don't agree, I think the thought is nice, but it changes the gameplay a lot, which I don't like.

A level 10 Horned Reaper needs 6 hits to destroy an Iron door I think that's pretty normal. Big scythe, strong creature, fast. He wouldn't need much to destroy a door like that. He does however need quite a few more punches to destroy a magic door since that's "liquid". So trying to cut it with a scythe shouldn't do so much damage. Well a Wooden and Braced door should fall with 1 or 2 hits (as they do now) So I don't see any imbalances there.

If you take other creatures or their weapons in account I understand that some might be a little strange, but who cares? :P It's a game! No simulator..

Metal Gear Rex
March 24th, 2011, 22:36
I kinda agree but I don't agree, I think the thought is nice, but it changes the gameplay a lot, which I don't like.

That's always a problem with doing a change, but then again, the Doors are pretty imbalanced since the Wooden and Braced Doors are very worthless compared to the Iron Door. They cost less to manufacture but they're so weak that it doesn't make up for it.


A level 10 Horned Reaper needs 6 hits to destroy an Iron door I think that's pretty normal. Big scythe, strong creature, fast. He wouldn't need much to destroy a door like that.

Groups of enemies normally and just break through the Iron Doors like they're nothing. I think they need to be stronger, but not too much. Just like slightly and it'll make a difference.


He does however need quite a few more punches to destroy a magic door since that's "liquid". So trying to cut it with a scythe shouldn't do so much damage.

"A few"? Lies. Magic Doors can take so many hits from a Level 10 Horned Reaper it isn't even funny.


Well a Wooden and Braced door should fall with 1 or 2 hits (as they do now) So I don't see any imbalances there.

Wooden Doors yes, Braced Doors not really. Braced Doors should be tougher than that. As I mentioned above, the shorter manufacture time doesn't really make up for how weak they are. Why bother using them?

Also you shouldn't be using one Creature to test balance when it comes to Doors. Very very rarely will you actually see a single enemy trying to break down a Door. Multiple enemies is more threatening to a Door than a single strong enemy. Two Giants deal greater damage than one Horned Reaper.

About the Magic Door, I want to know what the damage reduction for physical attacks is exactly. (Or it could be a damage increase for magical attacks) Mefisto, do you know?

Krizzie
March 24th, 2011, 22:59
A Braced door is nothing more than a wooden door with some Iron plates here and there, that makes it maybe 50% stronger to break?

If you take the graphics in to consideration then I think the doors are more than fine as they are now.

Take the Giant, if you put him in front of a door he's almost the same width and height, he should be walking trough a wooden door and maybe needs 1 or 2 punches for a Braced one.

10 Giants (or name your army) shouldn't even be able to attack a door this size at ones. Cause they wouldn't be able to attack the door all at ones.

About Horny taking a lot of time breaking magic doors. Why don't you try to 'break' a liquid substance with a scythe. ;) Will be pretty hard I guess..

This will be an endless discussion about what's "right" and what's not, so stick with how it is now. It works fine. Keep it that way.

If people want new door physics let them edit the config files or make a campaign with different physics, but don't mess with the original. :)

The way I see it:

-Wooden door, for locking/controlling your own creatures or to keep low level enemies outside for a short while.
-Braced door, same purpose as the Wooden door only a bit more resistant to enemies.
-Iron door, to keep medium level enemies busy for a while (I usually use them in combination with boulder traps) and of course for selling. when there are no gems in the area
-Magic door, to hold off high level enemies in big numbers and to sell for gold of course

It's like a graph that increases exponentially.

Metal Gear Rex
March 24th, 2011, 23:19
A Braced door is nothing more than a wooden door with some Iron plates here and there, that makes it maybe 50% stronger to break?

I think it should at least be significantly stronger. As it stands right now, it isn't strong enough to actually make much of a difference when compared to a Wooden Door.


About Horny taking a lot of time breaking magic doors. Why don't you try to 'break' a liquid substance with a scythe. ;) Will be pretty hard I guess..

No you missed my point, I meant that you said it took "a few" more hits for a Horned Reaper to destroy a Magic Door compared to an Iron Door.


This will be an endless discussion about what's "right" and what's not, so stick with how it is now. It works fine. Keep it that way.

Yes it would be, neither side would easily "give in" really.

DragonsLover
March 28th, 2011, 03:58
Okay, sorry to be late, but I just did the tests with doors.

I must agree a bit with the fact that doors are somewhat a bit weak, but don't forget that you can place MULTIPLE of them. You are free to create a corridor and place more than just one door. That way, it's 2 times, 3 times, 6 times, 10 times, X times more resistant than just a single door (depending on the amount of doors you place in the corridor). For example, instead of a single steel door of 1500 health, place 10 steel doors next of each other, for a good total amount of 15000 health to destroy! I know it's a bit ugly, but since you can almost make an infinite supply of doors, you can afford that, and it can considerably slows down hero parties.


Magic Doors can take so many hits from a Level 10 Horned Reaper it isn't even funny.

166 hits for a level 1 horny and 58 hits for level 10 without luck, a bit less than 58 with. That's not that bad.


About the Magic Door, I want to know what the damage reduction for physical attacks is exactly. (Or it could be a damage increase for magical attacks) Mefisto, do you know?

I do, I just tested it. Like mentioned in the Magic Door tooltip, they are very resistant to physical attacks, but not magical attacks.

Physical attacks do 12% damage to the door. So, if you take a level 1 Giant with 100 strength, he will actually inflict only 12 damage points to the door per hit, and the door will be destroyed after 250 hits. If you do the calculation, 250 x 12 = 3000, the Magic door's health. I don't know if a level 1 Imp actually inflicts 0 damage (12% * 5 = 0,6) but if the minimum is 1, then you'll have to be extremely patient as it's gonna take 3000 hits for the Imp to destroy the door! :D
There's something strange I noticed by the way: doors are destroyed when their health are negative. So, yeah, you can have doors with 0 health! :D

As for the magical attacks, only the :flame_breath:, :fireball:, :meteor:, :lightning: and :word_of_power: spells inflict 100% damage to the door.
All the others (:arrow:, :missile:, :navigating_missile:, :drain: and :hailstorm:) do 12%. I didn't test the Grenade's blast and the Boulder.
So, if you want to destroy a Magic door the fastest way, the recommended creatures to use are :warlock: and :mistress: (also :fairy: and :wizard: if you have any) at high levels. :dragon: are also good, but only if you have tons of them. Otherwise, take melee creatures with high strength like :horny:, :avatar:, :giant:, :lord: and :samurai:.

By the way, I just noticed something wrong (only tested with KeeperFX 0.37c): :word_of_power: spell don't do ANY damages to ANY doors. This really has to be fixed.

Finally, if we return to the last subject of boosting the health values of doors. How about increasing them of 50% for Wood, Braced and Steel and 12,5% for Magic? This will give:


Instead of: It's gonna be:
400 600
750 1125
1500 2250
3000 3375

Tell me what do you think of all that! :)

Metal Gear Rex
March 28th, 2011, 04:59
I must agree a bit with the fact that doors are somewhat a bit weak, but don't forget that you can place MULTIPLE of them. You are free to create a corridor and place more than just one door. That way, it's 2 times, 3 times, 6 times, 10 times, X times more resistant than just a single door (depending on the amount of doors you place in the corridor). For example, instead of a single steel door of 1500 health, place 10 steel doors next of each other, for a good total amount of 15000 health to destroy! I know it's a bit ugly, but since you can almost make an infinite supply of doors, you can afford that, and it can considerably slows down hero parties.

That sounds like a pretty cheap strategy and also requires the dungeon to be mined out specifically for that, which isn't possible in a lot of maps. The fact that such a stratregy must be done to make the doors useful is pretty pathetic to be honest. And how many people are actually going to do that? (Plus it also takes a lot of time to rebuild after it is destroyed...)


166 hits for a level 1 horny and 58 hits for level 10 without luck, a bit less than 58 with. That's not that bad.

But compared to the Iron Door? That's what I was referring to when I said that, which you would know if you read my post more carefully.


Physical attacks do 12% damage to the door. So, if you take a level 1 Giant with 100 strength, he will actually inflict only 12 damage points to the door per hit, and the door will be destroyed after 250 hits. If you do the calculation, 250 x 12 = 3000, the Magic door's health. I don't know if a level 1 Imp actually inflicts 0 damage (12% * 5 = 0,6) but if the minimum is 1, then you'll have to be extremely patient as it's gonna take 3000 hits for the Imp to destroy the door! :D

Compared to the other Doors, that's fair, how? More so why I think some tweaks should be done. Iron Door could be stronger than the Magic Door, but the Magic Door would still be potentially stronger than Iron Doors due to resistance to Physical Attacks... but this would require some tweaking with maps and stuff since that is a really big change.


Finally, if we return to the last subject of boosting the health values of doors. How about increasing them of 50% for Wood, Braced and Steel and 12,5% for Magic? This will give:


Instead of: It's gonna be:
400 600
750 1125
1500 2250
3000 3375

Tell me what do you think of all that! :)

Uh, no. Magic Door is strong enough as it is, being able to resist Physical Attacks and all. Leave that one alone, but the other doors, yeah I like the newer values.

Personally, I say leave Wooden Door alone but make it have lower construction time. Its main funciton does not involve resisting damage, but being able to get some doors up and ready quick in order to have better management over the dungeon.

DragonsLover
March 28th, 2011, 16:51
That sounds like a pretty cheap strategy and also requires the dungeon to be mined out specifically for that, which isn't possible in a lot of maps. The fact that such a stratregy must be done to make the doors useful is pretty pathetic to be honest. And how many people are actually going to do that? (Plus it also takes a lot of time to rebuild after it is destroyed...)

Like I said, I knew it's a bit ugly. I just said it was a possibility since it's possible to create tons and tons of doors. It can be useful in some ways. They can separate heroes from their party and making battles easier if you don't have a lot of creatures (is it the cheap strategy you talked about earlier?). But yeah, I understand.


But compared to the Iron Door? That's what I was referring to when I said that, which you would know if you read my post more carefully.

Yeah, I see what you're saying. But the thing is that, if I would make the Steel door to be just a bit less stronger than the Magic door and make the doors' resistance to increase at a constant rate, its health value would have to be higher than the Magic door because of the Physical resistance, making the Steel door more stronger from magical attacks than the Magic door (would that be a good thing btw?). The solution would be to set the Steel door's health equal or a bit less than the Magic door and that's what I think you explained earlier.


Compared to the other Doors, that's fair, how?

I have never said that it's fair.


Uh, no. Magic Door is strong enough as it is, being able to resist Physical Attacks and all. Leave that one alone, but the other doors, yeah I like the newer values.

Personally, I say leave Wooden Door alone but make it have lower construction time. Its main funciton does not involve resisting damage, but being able to get some doors up and ready quick in order to have better management over the dungeon.

Okay, I'll look into that.

Mistressmaster
March 28th, 2011, 18:24
I like DL's updated hitpoints, they're more or less what I had in mind besides making the magic door stronger. With such a high physical damage resistance they're a pain in the ass as it is unless you have good spell casters. They're even worse when a boulders hiding behind them, obviously because you'll be more tempted to spam creatures at them only to be left with a well squished pile of :warlock:'s or :wizard:'s
I once milled around the idea of actually making the iron door highly resistant to magic and affected normally by physical, just a suggestion but I'll see what others think.

DragonsLover
March 28th, 2011, 20:43
Here are the changes I just brought:

Wooden door:
Manufacture points = 12000 (instead of 18000)
Health = 400 (by default)

Braced door:
Manufacture points = 20000 (instead of 24000)
Health = 1125 (instead of 750)

Steel door:
Manufacture points = 32000 (instead of 26000)
Health = 2500 (instead of 1500)

Magic door:
Manufacture points = 50000 (by default)
Health = 3000 (by default)

A bit OT, but I also altered traps data as well:

Alarm trap:
Manufacture points = 12000 (instead of 18000)

Poison gas trap:
Manufacture points = 18000 (instead of 20000)

Others keep the values of the previous version of my unofficial patch, but will be changed once it will be possible to edit traps' damage.

Tell me what do you think.

Metal Gear Rex
March 28th, 2011, 23:10
Wooden door:
Manufacture points = 12000 (instead of 18000)
Health = 400 (by default)

Sounds good.


Braced door:
Manufacture points = 20000 (instead of 24000)
Health = 1125 (instead of 750)

Only thing I might suggest is to leave the Manufacture Points alone or set it to 22000.


Steel door:
Manufacture points = 32000 (instead of 26000)
Health = 2500 (instead of 1500)

Sounds good.


Magic door:
Manufacture points = 50000 (by default)
Health = 3000 (by default)

Alright.


Tell me what do you think.

Meow. That's what I think.

Mistressmaster
March 28th, 2011, 23:33
Looks good

DragonsLover
March 28th, 2011, 23:49
Okay, I have left Braced door's manufacture points by default.


Meow. That's what I think.

Good kitty! *Cuddles* :p