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dangleberries
April 25th, 2011, 20:38
is there a way to get the avatar without destroying the other keeper first?
also is the other keeper ment to take over the avatar's castle in the middle so soon into the mission??

Mothrayas
April 25th, 2011, 20:43
is there a way to get the avatar without destroying the other keeper first?
Yes. Don't confront him, or at least don't go further than the northern water lake. Instead, go for the Avatar from the corridor on the right, from the center Hero fortress.


also is the other keeper ment to take over the avatar's castle in the middle so soon into the mission??

Depends. Usually he doesn't get at it until he starts spamming workshops, but sometimes he could go way earlier, or way later.



(To be precise, he starts taking over when he breaks out of his earth area into the northern water lake. To the right of the Avatar's location there's a Blue Magic Door, right next to the white corridor. Because this means he can claim the white corridor and everything else from there, his Imps will go after it (and die like lemmings on the traps in there) and eventually claim the entire dungeon, destroy the Dungeon Heart (usually with the level 1 flies and beetles next to the heart) and kill all other opposing forces (except for the Avatar himself).)

dangleberries
April 25th, 2011, 20:51
Yes. Don't confront him, or at least don't go further than the northern water lake. Instead, go for the Avatar from the corridor on the right, from the center Hero fortress.

yeah thats what i tried but then only your dragons can get to him basically, (thats the only lava travllers i had when i was doing it) and you cant attempt to convert him?

is there a way of getting him to come onto the land from the passage way you described in order to put him into prison and convert??

Mothrayas
April 25th, 2011, 20:57
Be creative.


Option 1: Possess a level 10 Dragon with Word of Power to blow him from his island prison onto the corridor, and fight him there.
Option 2: Convert the Witch from the central dungeon (provided you got there before Blue kills her). Possess her and use Wind to blow him onto the corridor. Easier than using a Dragon, as you can just come in with Rebound active, let Avatar freeze himself, then you can align yourself with the Avatar and the corridor and blow him out.
Option 3: Get a ghost, and get it to level 6. See option 2.

dangleberries
April 25th, 2011, 21:05
Be creative.


Option 1: Possess a level 10 Dragon with Word of Power to blow him from his island prison onto the corridor, and fight him there.
Option 2: Convert the Witch from the central dungeon (provided you got there before Blue kills her). Possess her and use Wind to blow him onto the corridor. Easier than using a Dragon, as you can just come in with Rebound active, let Avatar freeze himself, then you can align yourself with the Avatar and the corridor and blow him out.
Option 3: Get a ghost, and get it to level 6. See option 2.


ahhhh yeah thats right, i did try the drong (word of power) option but he wouldnt go past the bars of his cell, although i may give the wind power that seems like you said more likely to work. cheers.

Enker-Zan
April 25th, 2011, 22:06
Easier way is to get 1-2 Horned Reapers and have the other Dragons sit in the back and pelt him with Meteors when his Rebound isn't on.

Metal Gear Rex
April 25th, 2011, 22:20
Easier way is to get 1-2 Horned Reapers and have the other Dragons sit in the back and pelt him with Meteors when his Rebound isn't on.

Avatar doesn't have Rebound. Also, make sure to keep your Horned Reapers healed because the Avatar can deal some heavy melee damage.

Shogun
April 26th, 2011, 02:30
yeah thats what i tried but then only your dragons can get to him basically, (thats the only lava travllers i had when i was doing it) and you cant attempt to convert him?

is there a way of getting him to come onto the land from the passage way you described in order to put him into prison and convert??

I possess the priestess I got from the secret level, make her invisible, position her infront of him facing the passage way and with her wind spell, blow him into the passage. Then kill and convert.

Shogun :samurai:

Enker-Zan
April 26th, 2011, 07:27
Avatar doesn't have Rebound. Also, make sure to keep your Horned Reapers healed because the Avatar can deal some heavy melee damage.

LOL, I am getting too used to my MOD. XD

Krizzie
April 28th, 2011, 09:33
Was that blue door meant to be on the right side of the map? If you make it a Hero door, the blue keeper won't go for the hero castle that fast. Not that I really mind it, I usually take the castle pretty fast anyway.

If you like challenges it's nice to let the blue keeper take the castle. Also he will get some of the hero parties instead of you. (A)

dangleberries
April 28th, 2011, 09:39
Was that blue door meant to be on the right side of the map? If you make it a Hero door, the blue keeper won't go for the hero castle that fast.

What do you mean?

DragonsLover
April 28th, 2011, 13:32
There's a blue door at the far end of the corridor in the right side of the level. Once a path is dug by blue imps at the north which leads to the hero castle, an imp may decide to go claiming the territory next of that door and walks a long way inside the castle, attacking all doors in his path. If he succeeds, neutral flies and beetles surrounding the hero dungeon heart will be claimed by the blue keeper and start attacking the heart slowly into pieces.

Back to the question, I think yeah, the door was meant to be there. All the boulder traps in the corridor were there to slow down the imps to go claiming the territory. However, once the flies and beetles destroy the heart, traps and doors become useless as there are no more of them to slow them down so once the heart is destroyed. Here, I'm not sure if the insects should be around the heart. I think the heart should be attacked by the enemy Keeper AFTER the imps successfully start claiming the white territory in the corridor. Not before. But then, it would take a way longer time for them to destroy the doors and get access to the blue door. Too long, maybe?

What do you think would be the best?

Enker-Zan
April 28th, 2011, 23:45
I always imagined that hero keep to be filled with Heroes. Both the player and the Vampire Keeper fight to control it. The Hero Dungeon Heart is useless, I dunno why they bother putting it there other than to easily remove all the doors and traps from that area.

Krizzie
April 29th, 2011, 06:59
The traps in the corridor, the insects at the heart. It al looks like a carefully planned timer of some sort. Which makes it for the Human player necessary to move out at some point else he gets overrun by the Hero's and the blue keeper.

The map becomes a lot harder if the blue keeper takes the castle, he get's a Horned Reaper for free and also takes some dungeon specials which might come in handy. Also he can start bridging and digging around your dungeon which is quite annoying. Most of all the AI starts spamming CTA on your heart which makes his Vampires and Mistresses teleport to it.

dangleberries
April 29th, 2011, 07:50
yeah that seems a better idea to me, else there is really no point in even having that hero castle there they may aswell of just made it a part of the blee keepers domain. all in all though i think the final mission does leave a lot to be desired.

Mothrayas
April 29th, 2011, 13:23
yeah that seems a better idea to me, else there is really no point in even having that hero castle there they may aswell of just made it a part of the blee keepers domain. all in all though i think the final mission does leave a lot to be desired.

I disagree. The plot point of the entire final stage was that you were going to capture the Avatar, and of course you would expect him in nothing else but a big hero Fortress. (The supposed plot twist is of course that the Avatar isn't there, but is captured by blue). Making the entire fortress blue from the start kind of defeats the point completely.

I suppose it's just that BF made poor decisions for how/when to make blue takeover, making it turn out pretty much random. It appears much earlier than expected/needed for some players. For me, he always stayed away long enough that I got the Hero territory before Blue does.

DragonsLover
April 29th, 2011, 15:15
I always imagined that hero keep to be filled with Heroes. Both the player and the Vampire Keeper fight to control it. The Hero Dungeon Heart is useless, I dunno why they bother putting it there other than to easily remove all the doors and traps from that area.

It's planned that way. From the texts of the game, heroes are "hidden in the shadows" and they reveal their presence once the Avatar is defeated or captured by resurecting/cloning him. So, yeah, having the hero castle being empty IS NORMAL. In fact, if heroes would already be there, it would have been too much easy to send heroes fight the Blue Keeper instead of us. And also, more heroes = more captures = more creatures than blue = too easy level for a final one.


I disagree. The plot point of the entire final stage was that you were going to capture the Avatar, and of course you would expect him in nothing else but a big hero Fortress. (The supposed plot twist is of course that the Avatar isn't there, but is captured by blue). Making the entire fortress blue from the start kind of defeats the point completely.

I suppose it's just that BF made poor decisions for how/when to make blue takeover, making it turn out pretty much random. It appears much earlier than expected/needed for some players. For me, he always stayed away long enough that I got the Hero territory before Blue does.

Capture the avatar? I don't think so. I think the Avatar wasn't mean to be captured. Through the sound files of the game, there's one saying: "The Avatar's body has vanished!". I think here that, once the Avatar is knocked out, his body should go *poof!* so that imps couldn't drag his body. Since Bullfrog was on a rush, they didn't have time to hardcode this, and this is something I'd like to see repaired (perhaps through additionnal script lines?).

However, the time the blue keeper needs to claim the castle varies. To get access to the hero castle, the Blue Keeper must dig a path or a hole to make the possibility for the imps to move, if they aren't busy to do something else. I remember the first time I played the level, I was not tempted to move out from my dungeon, thinking the hero castle was filled by heroes and causing the blue imps to claim it entirely. I did the mistake to stay too much in my dungeon. However, once you figure out the emptiness of the castle and the rush you must do, taking the hero castle is a piece of cake.

I repeat my question : should it take a while for the blue keeper to claim the hero castle and destroy the heart or should it be pretty quick?

Krizzie
April 29th, 2011, 20:56
Ones you can kill the guarding Tentacles you should take the castle. I thought there were 10 Tentacles in total. 8 to the right of the "Dirt Bridge" and 2 on the left. With some first person use that can be done pretty fast.

If you have the Castle, blue isn't much of a concern anymore until you have defeated the Hero's.

Mothrayas
April 30th, 2011, 18:39
Capture the avatar? I don't think so. I think the Avatar wasn't mean to be captured.

http://i52.tinypic.com/2cyr5lg.png

If that isn't "captured" then I have no idea what it is.

Searingflame2
May 1st, 2011, 10:05
I don't think He's meant to be captured at the first coming of He.

Only in the second coming do you truly capture Him to torture for eternity.

DragonsLover
May 1st, 2011, 21:24
If that isn't "captured" then I have no idea what it is.

Exactly like what Searingflame2 said.

This is when he got resurrected. THEN, you could capture him and win the level to get that final sequence.

The FIRST time you fight him alone, however, you SHOULDN'T be supposed to capture him. His body should VANISH like it was supposed to be. That's what I explained.

And I still didn't get the answer of my questions... would somebody care to answer please?

EDIT: Nevermind, finally. I saw that the traps were for level 10 imps and removing/moving some insects was not a good idea since they couldn't destroy the heart. There's just a "small" probability where the enemy Keeper doesn't dig a path in the lake, but I guess we have to live with it.