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View Full Version : Vampire - DPS vs Immortality



Zyraen
May 31st, 2011, 13:53
I used to like Vampire a lot in 1998 or so when I was first playing DK1 back as a kid, mainly cuz I thought Vampires were awesomely hawt creatures.

However, the Vampire DPS really sucks as compared to Dark Mistress, who with Haste + Drain alone does x2 damage, only she also has Lightning added to the Mix. She's obtainable earlier on, doesn't involve complications of dead bodies, and is much cheaper.

So, what are we paying for? Sure Immortality is awesome, but isn't it a relatively useless thing to have? Its not that its not good, its just that by the time you can afford to keep a few Vampires, special maps aside you probably won't be having them dying on you.

Was thinking, would it make sense to remove Immortality / reduce it to 1 extra Life at level 10, and add Lightning to Vampire? Or simply replace Drain with Lightning (so it does more damage but slightly less survivability in its main "Moving Tank" role). Its final DPS would not be higher than a Dark Mistress with Haste, but it'd be a lot more useful.

Edit : I can easily do this on my own installation, just wondering what other players think.

Mothrayas
May 31st, 2011, 14:03
I say it's fine as it is. The purpose of the Vampire is not to deal massive damage like the Mistress, but basically just to survive for as long as possible. Giving the Vampire Lightning and removing his resurrection ability basically defeats his entire point and makes him a stupid Mistress-clone wannabe.

Duke Ragereaver
May 31st, 2011, 14:04
Immortality is exactly what makes the Vampire so worth it.

Zyraen
June 1st, 2011, 03:07
Great to hear what others think :) I guess I won't change a thing then for New Maps

DragonsLover
June 1st, 2011, 14:32
Replacing Drain with Lightning??? Where's the logistic? Everybody knows that Vampires drain blood and life force from their victims. If there's a spell the Vampire should absolutely get, it's obviously the Drain spell.

As for Immortality, I think it's okay the way it is.

Btw, the Mistress has been slightly nerfed to make her a bit weaker.

Zyraen
June 1st, 2011, 17:00
Wouldn't go so far as to say the Vampire *must* have Drain, mainly because it looks so lackluster, and so many creatures have it (Monks, Fairies too I think).
If anything, I think Vampires exude Power. Word of Power would be great if it actually did Damage, and even Skeletons have Lightning, which (along with tonne of other spells) are powerful.

Alternatively, I suppose Vampires could be given some slightly altered AI so that in an advantageous situation, they could use Melee to Strike and they do have a decent Strength. Whereas in a big fight they'd do the usual.

I've never fully understood how "Fear" works in DK1, perhaps a high Fear Value and preference for Melee?

Metal Gear Rex
June 1st, 2011, 18:47
Wouldn't go so far as to say the Vampire *must* have Drain, mainly because it looks so lackluster, and so many creatures have it (Monks, Fairies too I think).

You're worrying too much about how much damage the Vampire does, and since it doesn't do much damage, you're just considering it to be useless. The Vampire isn't meant to do damage, he's supposed to be kind of like a tank unit.

Drain is a bit of a "must" because it helps the Vampire keep himself alive. Look at his spell set. He has Heal, Drain, and Protect which make him harder to kill, and he has Slow, Whirlwind, and Word of Power (knock-back effect) which are all spells that can give enemies a hard time when it comes to fighting him. To top it off, he has a lot of health (800) and can resurrect. It is clear that he is a defensive, and not an offensive unit.


If anything, I think Vampires exude Power. Word of Power would be great if it actually did Damage, and even Skeletons have Lightning, which (along with tonne of other spells) are powerful.

Word of Power is supposed to do damage, actually. It is a bug in the original DK1 that was fixed in KeeperFX.

Skeletons have Lightning because it fits their unit type. It doesn't fit a Vampire's unit type at all, and it makes him easier to kill because he won't be able to recover his Health as much as before.


Alternatively, I suppose Vampires could be given some slightly altered AI so that in an advantageous situation, they could use Melee to Strike and they do have a decent Strength. Whereas in a big fight they'd do the usual.

No, I think it would be a bad idea. Try modifying the Vampire as it is and set him to be a "Melee" fighter, and see how much easier he will die. Vampires, like all support units, will use Melee when an enemy gets close to them but then they'll back away immediately.


I've never fully understood how "Fear" works in DK1, perhaps a high Fear Value and preference for Melee?

Well if you didn't fully understand how Fear works in DK1, you probably shouldn't be making a suggestion for a new Fear stat for a Creature.

In DK1, you can tell your Creatures to flee from battle. They'll only run away once they have low Health. How low their health must be before they run away depends on their Fear value. The lower it is, the lower their health will need to be before they try to escape. Setting it to 0 means they'll never run away. Setting it to 255, like the Imp, means it will run away as soon as it sees combat. Most Creatures have it set to either 30, 10, or 0.


Replacing Drain with Lightning??? Where's the logistic? Everybody knows that Vampires drain blood and life force from their victims. If there's a spell the Vampire should absolutely get, it's obviously the Drain spell.

Well, I think when creating a game, we can throw logic out the window most of the time. The real important reason to keep the Drain spell on the Vampire is that it is perfectly fitting for him as a Unit.


Btw, the Mistress has been slightly nerfed to make her a bit weaker.

Out of curiousity, what did you do to her? I forgot what the changes were in your latest patch. Though perhaps it is best to PM me if you wish to answer instead of replying here.

DragonsLover
June 1st, 2011, 21:12
Word of Power is supposed to do damage, actually. It is a bug in the original DK1 that was fixed in KeeperFX.

Not when he's flying. He must be on ground to actually push and damage surrounding creatures (which may happens sometimes). Something that should be fixed.


and even Skeletons have Lightning, which (along with tonne of other spells) are powerful.

Skeletons have :lightning: to avoid them to be dancing around the battle field when the 6 or 8 first of them are fighting. Since skeletons can be created a lot of times, they need a ranged attack. :lightning: is the one that fits best.


I've never fully understood how "Fear" works in DK1, perhaps a high Fear Value and preference for Melee?

Fear works in combination with "Flee" option. When flee is on and the creature's health percentage goes below the "Fear" value set, the creature will stop fighting and flee away.


Well, I think when creating a game, we can throw logic out the window most of the time. The real important reason to keep the Drain spell on the Vampire is that it is perfectly fitting for him as a Unit.

Agreed.


Out of curiousity, what did you do to her? I forgot what the changes were in your latest patch. Though perhaps it is best to PM me if you wish to answer instead of replying here.

Very simple. I can say it in one line : I simply removed her :speed_monster: spell. That's all. I did alter her speed previously, but I judged it was better to leave it by default.

Zyraen
June 2nd, 2011, 02:26
MGR
- thanks for the note on Fear :)
- yes I have ran a Vampire into Melee before. he does OK until enemies start landing hits, usually when there are many since he has High Defence but low Armor. and Freeze often obliterates him (as do Fairies that are not being targeted by someone else and you don't have Keeper Lightning or Cave In)
- I consider the Vampire to be a unique type of Tank, mainly as an anti-Tank, because he moves away yet practically never dies, he acts as a Kiter, drawing enemy Tanks into my territory and sometimes letting me easily pick off the Ranged Units. In a head-on Karimar fight (the triangle area full of traps where the Reaper and Destroy Walls is), he kited 4-5 level 10 Dragons for a long time (at least 1-2 rounds, Dragons aren't fast) over the Lava while the rest of my army killed all the Orcs and Warlocks... amazing

Dragonslover
- no wonder the Monk 10 does so much damage now... and that also explains why my Vampires never seem to do much WoP damage (not that they did in the original DK, but anyway...)
- about the Dark Mistress, removing Haste does sound a bit harsh. It halves both DPS and Evasive Ability... Then again, in Dixaroc my level 8 Dark Mistresses killed level 6 Knights without barely getting scratched (and only because of corners)
- Taking away Drain alone might be better, it never felt quite right with her. "AHAHAHA!" lame zippy-sounding beam of light red.. as opposed to bright white KaBooBooBooBoom...

Now that I think about it, Drain does sounds a little like a Star Wars lazer or something, lol.

DragonsLover
June 2nd, 2011, 05:41
- about the Dark Mistress, removing Haste does sound a bit harsh. It halves both DPS and Evasive Ability... Then again, in Dixaroc my level 8 Dark Mistresses killed level 6 Knights without barely getting scratched (and only because of corners)

That's the goal of it. Mistresses have a deadly combination of "Ranged attack" + Lightning + Speed, making her to be almost untouchable. Trust me, even without Speed, they're still very strong, no need to double it.

Removing Drain? Hmmm, I don't think so. Mistresses have to train to a very high level to acquire the Drain spell. Since Drain takes less time than Lightning to recharge, but also to cast, it helps them to be more efficient at ranged attacks even when their enemy is very close to them.

Metal Gear Rex
June 2nd, 2011, 21:32
- Taking away Drain alone might be better, it never felt quite right with her. "AHAHAHA!" lame zippy-sounding beam of light red.. as opposed to bright white KaBooBooBooBoom...

Well Drain is apart of her being a DPS, especially since Drain has a shorter recharge time compared to Lightning.


That's the goal of it. Mistresses have a deadly combination of "Ranged attack" + Lightning + Speed, making her to be almost untouchable. Trust me, even without Speed, they're still very strong, no need to double it.

What makes Speed so powerful on the Dark Mistress is the fact that she can escape enemies very easily. She already has a fast movement speed and she only has two spells to cast so she doesn't stop very often to cast spells.

She also has a lot of health (700, same as the Barbarian's) for a support unit. She also has a fairly high Armor stat, (50) so she can take a hit and doesn't get hit very often. (especially with her 70 Defense)

So I think maybe decrease her movement speed slightly, lower her health down o 600, and set her Armor stat should be 40, then she won't be so powerful.

DragonsLover
June 2nd, 2011, 23:08
Does DPS mean "Damage Per Second" in this context?


She also has a lot of health (700, same as the Barbarian's) for a support unit. She also has a fairly high Armor stat, (50) so she can take a hit and doesn't get hit very often. (especially with her 70 Defense)

So I think maybe decrease her movement speed slightly, lower her health down o 600, and set her Armor stat should be 40, then she won't be so powerful.

Hmmm, I'm so-so about altering these values since it won't be very similar to her natural enemy : the Samurai. He also has 700 of health, share the same base speed and has the same value of Defence and Luck. For the other stats (Strength, Dexterity and Armour), he's stronger than the Mistress, but since he's a Melee fighter and gets hit more often, that's normal.

Metal Gear Rex
June 2nd, 2011, 23:13
Does DPS mean "Damage Per Second" in this context?



Hmmm, I'm so-so about altering these values since it won't be very similar to her natural enemy : the Samurai. He also has 700 of health, share the same base speed and has the same value of Defence and Luck. For the other stats (Strength, Dexterity and Armour), he's stronger than the Mistress, but since he's a Melee fighter and gets hit more often, that's normal.

Well does it really matter? If it means changing those values to make her less overpowered, then I don't really see a problem with it.

DragonsLover
June 2nd, 2011, 23:23
I was thinking of only decreasing her health to 600. Not much.

Zyraen
June 3rd, 2011, 04:06
600 sounds good. And removing Haste sounds like it would help too.
I guess you wouldn't mind if I used it in my Tweaked DK ?

DragonsLover
June 3rd, 2011, 04:52
I don't mind any modifications. Everyone is free to tweak whatever they want. In my case, it's simply to improve the game for everyone, but I don't force anyone to use the modified stuff.

Krizzie
June 3rd, 2011, 07:41
I'm thinking the same about removing speed as you think about removing Drain. They are agile creatures, speed is something they should have.

If you want to remove something, remove Teleport from them.

Mothrayas
June 3rd, 2011, 09:33
...except removing Teleport from them hardly influences them, and removing Speed does. Removing Teleport is not much of a nerf. In fact, it'd only make them better, as their AI won't bug out anymore at level 10.

Zyraen
June 3rd, 2011, 09:41
@Mothrayas
Agreed. I wonder if I'm only person who thinks Teleport should be removed from the game completely?
Not so much for Balance, only that its irritating.

Of course, Teleport is an interesting "nerf" for Sprinkling Gold... and even then, you can still manage it!