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September 26th, 2009, 21:05
I know IKSLM or whatever combination of letter it is, worked hard on getting the engine where it is today. But I'd like to know more specification about the engine. For example, what wrappers are used, which languages (I know C++ is one, but do I see some VB?) will it be easily portable from Windows to Linux and Mac?

Is a custom engine really the right choice?

dotted
September 27th, 2009, 07:02
But I'd like to know more specification about the engine. For example, what wrappers are used, which languages (I know C++ is one, but do I see some VB?) will it be easily portable from Windows to Linux and Mac?
I don't see any VB, at least not when i had a quick look at the file extensions so please elaborate. As for portability, that is defenantly a long term goal, but it requires we have a programmer on board which have knowledge of these systems. The engine uses some win32 api calls, so some work will be required to port it.


Is a custom engine really the right choice?
Given that much functionality we will need for the first milestone of the game has already begun i'd like to think it is a good idea to use this engine.

Also you seem to be pretty knowledgeable about programming, so if you want to sign up for the team you can do it at http://url.keeperklan.com/signup

September 27th, 2009, 11:15
It was late and I misread vCproj for vBproj.

I know the basic ins and outs of programming, but probably nowhere near anything that could make me an asset to you.

natchoguy
September 27th, 2009, 15:32
I heard that IDtech4 is not only a shooter engine, it could be used for other stuff.

dotted
September 27th, 2009, 15:36
I heard that IDtech4 is not only a shooter engine, it could be used for other stuff.

Do you have the money to license the engine?

elamre
September 27th, 2009, 15:44
euhm, we could use the quake 3 source, if we dont sell it right?

dotted
September 27th, 2009, 16:00
euhm, we could use the quake 3 source, if we dont sell it right?

But would there be any point in doing that?

September 27th, 2009, 16:50
You do realise doing this project, you're at risk of a CoD order from EA anyway...

dotted
September 27th, 2009, 17:19
You do realise doing this project, you're at risk of a CoD order from EA anyway...

given that we have permission i dont see that happening

agustins69
September 27th, 2009, 18:06
i like work in the natural born keeper project
but i dont programer pc.

Madkill
September 27th, 2009, 20:19
This made-from-scratch engine that IKSLM has designed and formed is the right direction, going off now to using another engine is just ridiculous.


The dev's know what they're doing. :spider:

September 27th, 2009, 22:36
given that we have permission i dont see that happening

I was unaware of that. Also, it might just be me. But that sounded a little rude...

Blutonium
September 27th, 2009, 22:46
depends how easy it is for the new coders to decrypt IKSLM's code =/

also - most pre-built engines can be modified easily to ANY type of game - and all their Graphics libraries/etc are already built, like shaders, lighting, 3D camera's, sprite's, particle creation, collision detection, etc, etc.

i'd say let the new coders decide - it IS their call....

dotted
September 28th, 2009, 04:33
I was unaware of that. Also, it might just be me. But that sounded a little rude...
I am generally very rude

Hapuga
September 28th, 2009, 11:27
The question continues, how about the engine that is premade already? Be realistic, how long will it take to find someone to write/decript old one or start anew?

dotted
September 28th, 2009, 13:54
The question continues, how about the engine that is premade already? Be realistic, how long will it take to find someone to write/decript old one or start anew?

NBKE engine is already made, can somone please explain the point of all this?

Hapuga
September 28th, 2009, 14:16
the point is can someone use this engine?

dotted
September 28th, 2009, 15:30
the point is can someone use this engine?

What gave you the idea the engine cant be used?

September 28th, 2009, 16:36
What gave you the idea the engine cant be used?

It's whether the new programmer can utilize the engine. If they don't understand the code all that well, then it may be more difficult for them to use it.

Whereas, if they had past experience with say Unreal Engine or Source, or even their own API system. They may prefer to use that, and it may prove to be a faster method of producing the game, than using somebody else's work, despite the fact it is closer to a final product.

dotted
September 28th, 2009, 16:44
It's whether the new programmer can utilize the engine. If they don't understand the code all that well, then it may be more difficult for them to use it.

Whereas, if they had past experience with say Unreal Engine or Source, or even their own API system. They may prefer to use that, and it may prove to be a faster method of producing the game, than using somebody else's work, despite the fact it is closer to a final product.

I really doubt starting all over will be beneficial at all, at least not time wise.

nebster
September 28th, 2009, 21:34
The en source code is quite easy to understand. I don't fully understand all of it, but when i don't, i just ask IKSLM and he explains it to me. :)

The engine is well suited to this game and I think the whole engine is done basically. All that needs doing is the code to go on top of the engine.

Correct me if I'm wrong because last time I looked at the source was at least a couple of months ago

Blutonium
September 28th, 2009, 21:50
The en source code is quite easy to understand. I don't fully understand all of it, but when i don't, i just ask IKSLM and he explains it to me. :)

The engine is well suited to this game and I think the whole engine is done basically. All that needs doing is the code to go on top of the engine.

Correct me if I'm wrong because last time I looked at the source was at least a couple of months ago

awesome. so what's the plan now, what's the next step?

September 28th, 2009, 21:53
To design the game still. We're clearly far from ready to actually go into development.

There needs to be a major meeting to discuss ideas and decide on what is in and what is out.

Trass3r
September 29th, 2009, 03:29
So the engine is used for WftO, is anyone still working on NBK itself (we all know IKSLM doesn't have much time)?

dotted
September 29th, 2009, 10:43
Hmm never actually realized this was posted in the NBKE forum. Anyways as of revision 9 the WFTO fork can now be build, but as there have been no WFTO changes yet it is essentially NBKE.

natchoguy
September 30th, 2009, 19:25
A developer told me that DK3 will use the same engine as DK1

September 30th, 2009, 19:31
A developer told me that DK3 will use the same engine as DK1

You mean of WFTO on this forum, he probably means the NBK (DK1 remake) which is using the NBKE. WFTO will be using NBKE too.

FrostHand
October 2nd, 2009, 05:31
Me and my friend are working on NBKE engine since april, but time shortage slows the process. Still there are serious changes.
We've began total engine refactoring. We connected some external libs instead of IKSLM handmade existing:
- Ogre3D rendering. (www.ogre3d.org).
- PhysX dynamics
Both of them are free to use in any projects (commercial or not).
In fact this is the great work, and we implemented just few features u've seen in NBKE.

What's implemented now:
- Block level rendering. In NBKE all block mesh is generated manually, in code. This were fast, but too complex, and impossible to implement dungeons environments like in DK2, or in Neverwinter Nights. The new approach - to create models for each block type, just like this:
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/9940/blocktypes.jpg
in extern editor, like 3dsmax, so anyone (not only a coder) can customise dungeon appearance.
- Some game objecs, like items and imps, can be created through scripts. Imp can be controlled through script commands (via console) or directly from keyboard.
- Any object in game world have physical properties, like mass and shape. Dynamics engine solves all collisions.
- More deep interaction with LUA scripting system. Now practically all engine objects can be accesed through scripts.

Most important things to be implemented:
- GUI. There is no gui still.
- Block models. I've done only basic walls\dirt blocks, and we need someone to draw last types. It's quite easy but boring process. Maybe someone makes utility based on NBKE code, that generates and saves block models in OGRE .mesh format.
- Rooms. I haven't done any models for room blocks, and so there are no code that use it.
- Creature AI. Now imp can execute only simple tasks like to reach specific point or to pick some item.

Now all the project is stored on our private SVN server. I visit this forum seldom, so it's easier to find me in skype: frosthand.

Trass3r
October 2nd, 2009, 05:44
The new approach - to create models for each block type
Well ok, but are these blocks randomly deformed by the engine just like DK2 does?
The dungeon will look very boring and monotonous if not.

FrostHand
October 2nd, 2009, 05:50
Deformations can be implemented using vertex shaders.
In fact i don't like deformations, and also there are other ways to make dungeon look different:
- we could draw more wall models.
- we could draw animated wall models (skeleton\vertex animation)

Blutonium
October 2nd, 2009, 06:13
Frosthand, do you guys have a forum? how many people are working on your game and why don't we rather join up?

do you have a demo for us perhaps?

it sounds REALLY Promising

FrostHand
October 2nd, 2009, 06:42
Not many, just me and my collegue. We have our private SVN & bugtracker(mantis) server.
I think i could prepare demo in a week. Current release is far from being stable. So just only screen:
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/1659/dkscreen.jpg

October 2nd, 2009, 08:01
That is quite a low framerate you have considering the screen is fair simple. Is it just your computer or is the code unoptimized?

Eitherway I'm happy to see progress, except you said you didn't like deformations. Why? For me, deformations add variety to scenes that would otherwise be boring. Besides, DK1 and DK2 both had deformations. Only, in DK2 they were too exaggerated.

Blutonium
October 2nd, 2009, 08:25
yeah that's a really low fps there for only 6700 poly's - NBKe could handle loads of creatures on the screen at once, with each model containing 1000 poly's

do you guys think you could optmize it?:confused:

dotted
October 2nd, 2009, 09:31
Frosthand, do you guys have a forum? how many people are working on your game and why don't we rather join up?

Unfortunately as far as i can see the PhysX license is incompatible with the GPL, so from a licensing perspective thats not gonna happen.

FrostHand
October 2nd, 2009, 10:04
Don't worry about FPS. It's just debug build. Release version shows ~400 FPS on the same scene. Gf7600.

FrostHand
October 2nd, 2009, 10:40
Unfortunately as far as i can see the PhysX license is incompatible with the GPL, so from a licensing perspective thats not gonna happen.
I don't use PhysX library directly. Instead of it i've created wrapper, so i can replace PhysX on any other engine, without editing game code. It's not the thing to worry now.

Blutonium
October 2nd, 2009, 10:50
awesome! :eek:

so why don't you work with us then?

we have a great concept artist Synesthesia,

I do 3D Modeling - HD Models for the Intro Cinematic, Cut Scenes, Low Poly Game models, UV Setups & some Animation

We've got a Site & Forum running 100% by a few moderators/etc and google apps running perfectly too - saw we had something called google code as well :confused: if that would help?

You interested in joining forces?

agustins69
October 7th, 2009, 01:27
im like work in the project

Kromeh
October 7th, 2009, 02:20
Makes the most sense to combine all possible assets in one massive project, to me of course.

Madkill
October 8th, 2009, 13:45
I'd prefer to wait on IKSLM as he leads NBKE. Not any of you guys. Patience.

nebster
October 8th, 2009, 16:05
I'd prefer to wait on IKSLM as he leads NBKE. Not any of you guys. Patience.

I've talked to IKLSM the other day and he said it's fine that I'm doing jobs and that he'll look over the changes every so often and if he doesn't like the way I've done it, he'll just msn me with what and how it should be done :)

I'm also still asking him about how things should be done too to make sure I get them right :)

gnounc
November 17th, 2009, 10:29
I'd like to suggest demo files ala starcraft and quake for NBKE.
Dunno where I would do that, Figure here is a good place to find out.

Trass3r
November 17th, 2009, 11:46
I guess I've asked that before somewhere, is there anyone at all who's still working on NBK itself rather than WFTO?

nebster
November 18th, 2009, 15:53
I guess I've asked that before somewhere, is there anyone at all who's still working on NBK itself rather than WFTO?

IKSLM abandoned NBK. NBKE however, i'm only implementing generic features at the moment. It would be the same source if I was heading towards WFTO or DK1.

gnounc
November 19th, 2009, 07:03
IKSLM abandoned NBK. NBKE however..

So does he have anything to do with NBKE?
Or has he left altogether?

dotted
November 19th, 2009, 07:45
So does he have anything to do with NBKE?
Or has he left altogether?

He scrapped NBK and started NBKE

nebster
November 19th, 2009, 14:19
So does he have anything to do with NBKE?
Or has he left altogether?

Everything before it was placed into the repository for us to work with is his work as far as I know.

gnounc
November 20th, 2009, 07:47
Oh, I knew he created NBK and NBKE, but I had assumed he was still working closely with the team, leading it even.

That clears things up, thx.

SimFirehawk
November 30th, 2009, 14:12
Hi All,

I 've found your awesome project of WTFO here in this forum. The work you do and the expertise of people you have here is really great. After reading a lot of your posts I was wondering, what engine you use to implement all these ideas. I read something about an NBK engine? Could you maybe tell me more about this engine? Is it selfwritten? Is there still working progress on it? DirectX or OpenGL?

Go on with this project.

tehbassdemon
November 30th, 2009, 18:22
NBK was the old engine made by IKSLM but he decided to start with a new engine called NBKE which is also the basis for war for the overworld. Both of the engines were made for the project. I'm not sure whether work is still being done but I can only assume that the people on the project are working behind the scenes.

Madkill
January 11th, 2010, 01:27
-bump-


Any engine updates..? :3

Exception
January 11th, 2010, 05:45
Been meaning to ask that as well. Even after lurking several months, I'm still confused as to whose engine is going to be used in the end product.

Madkill
January 11th, 2010, 06:13
These guys' apparently, but an update on that would be useful.

dotted
January 11th, 2010, 06:19
this is an nbke engine thread not ogre3d nbke port thread.

Madkill
January 11th, 2010, 06:45
this is an nbke engine thread not ogre3d nbke port thread.

Rephrase?

dotted
January 11th, 2010, 06:50
Rephrase?

this thread is about nbke

Exception
January 11th, 2010, 11:57
this thread is about nbke

So where is the ogre3d port thread? I don't recall seeing one.

Madkill
January 11th, 2010, 13:43
this thread is about nbke

And you linked me to this thread because the guys doing the Ogre3D thing were going to aid getting NBKE done.

Exception
January 16th, 2010, 07:55
Normally I dislike doing this, but
- bump -
I would still like to see dotted's response as to the ogre3d port, and mayb this will get his attention.

dotted
January 16th, 2010, 15:21
And you linked me to this thread because the guys doing the Ogre3D thing were going to aid getting NBKE done.

i linked to this thread as this was the thread where the ogre3d had made a post, not my problem that you are incapable of reading.

And there isnt a ogre3d thread either

FrostHand
January 31st, 2010, 12:18
Seems i've not been here for a long time.
I've ported most of IKSLM room rendering code. Still there are some problems:
-portal looks weird. Some problems with its mesh generation.
-room walls are not rendered well- standart wall textures are used instead.

There were some shortage of 3d modellers, so i used hardcoded block mesh generation instead of external mesh files (someone should draw them)

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/153/roomstest.jpg

I use debug mode rendering for all tests, so FPS is bad. Release version is a bit faster (500FPS).

PS: less words more deeds

A New Room
February 1st, 2010, 22:34
Looks very cool, I'm glad to see you guys are still alive :D

natchoguy
February 2nd, 2010, 01:55
How much WFTO engines are in progress so far? We have lots of programmers working completely independently... is it OK?:confused:

A New Room
February 2nd, 2010, 02:20
How much WFTO engines are in progress so far? We have lots of programmers working completely independently... is it OK?:confused:

As I gather Frosthand is working with a few other people to make a NBK/DK1 type thing for the OGRE3D engine, which I think is planned for use in the future with WftO development (though I'm not really sure of details).

There is Kopavel's engine, which looks amazing, but is not open-source compatible, also its only Kopavel working on it (though I there looks to be a few people who are gathering round that thread) so it does seem a bit much :/

Then there is the NBKE engine, which seems to be no longer under development any more (IKSLM is very busy...)

But that is just about all I can gathered from it...

FrostHand
February 3rd, 2010, 12:42
We abandoned IKSLM code half a year ago and recommend everyone else to do the same. It is more useless than usefull. The only way to use it is to adapt some pieces of that code in new framework (read - "engine").
By the way, i'm talking with Kopavel about uniting our afforts. He does not like Ogre3D in some way, but it's not the problem now to change rendering engine.

A New Room
February 6th, 2010, 01:06
You hear that sunny? Thats the sound of my hip snapping to cover up the sound of progress...

Awesome news :D

kyle
February 18th, 2010, 18:22
So, whats going on. I have not Heard anything for a while. What you should do is make a blog for the development. And update it often.

Kopavel
February 22nd, 2010, 21:45
So, whats going on. I have not Heard anything for a while. What you should do is make a blog for the development. And update it often.

Not much is going on. You are the one who probably knows the best :-)

kyle
February 23rd, 2010, 10:31
Lol wut, I never knew you were working on the ogre Wtfo Engine =)

Skaruts
May 21st, 2010, 06:05
Hmm, I like FrostHand's screenshots. I'd like to see how that project ends up, one of these days.

If you guys need another 3D modeler... well, I feel safer saying I'm still a bit noob at it, far from a complete 3D artist, but I got some experience with blender and with a little guidance I can do some stuff. I've done a weapon and a soccer ball for a serious source mod (minus weapon animations), done some random models too, some for source, some for fun.

The biggest problem I have sometimes is UV mapping, and texture mapping.
I don't do animated meshes, so the most I could contribute would be some static models.

Just thought I'd offer my help anyway.
Keep up the progress ppls.

Trass3r
August 10th, 2010, 00:09
We abandoned IKSLM code half a year ago and recommend everyone else to do the same. It is more useless than usefull. The only way to use it is to adapt some pieces of that code in new framework
What's the status of the OGRE branch?

dotted
August 10th, 2010, 02:29
What's the status of the OGRE branch?

When i talked to him back in June, it was "a bit abandoned"

Trass3r
August 10th, 2010, 13:21
What a pity. It seemed like the best approach to me. Coding an entire graphics engine by oneself won't lead to success. Just take http://www.openoutcast.org/wp/, if they didn't use the CryEngine they wouldn't be where they are now.

Well, if he abandoned it... will he release the source code?

kyle
August 10th, 2010, 15:05
Oneself?

We have 4 programmers.

dotted
August 11th, 2010, 18:14
Well, if he abandoned it... will he release the source code?
Some of his code was closed, so doubt it

Madkill
September 3rd, 2010, 04:48
If there's some source code to work with, I could fish for a programmer in the ModDB community...

dotted
September 3rd, 2010, 10:48
If there's some source code to work with, I could fish for a programmer in the ModDB community...

http://wfto.googlecode.com

Madkill
September 3rd, 2010, 13:33
What's the ideal 'knowledge in coding' as it were, for the project?