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Zyraen
June 16th, 2011, 03:30
Just wondering, what is/are your favourite DK1 Strategies?
Less Cheese and Exploits (eg. Conceal Imp claiming stuff).


You use a lot of overpowered units. That's pretty much why you're winning with brute force, because you have an overpowered army.
Since the above remark directed at me by a rather more experienced DK1 Player, I'm rather curious what other Players actually do, apart from using OP / Abusable Creatures / Rooms / Spells / Traps. Please also detail how you micro-manage fights, what Spells you use, and position / reposition your creatures, if you feel its notable and makes a big difference in the outcome.

Notwithstanding the fact that I usually avoid using Brute Force (not because I can't win with it, just that its boring till then).

From an earlier discussion, here is a list what is considered OP / Abusable. You don't have to go through the list, you can just post what you usually do and if you want, post your favourite strategies / creatures.
Alternatively, you can also go through the List, and if you see nothing that you don't do, just post that what you do is on the List.

OP/Abusable List
The following Creatures are classified as OP hence no need to mention :)
- Mistress
- Horned Reaper
- Dragons (semi-OP)
- Bile Demons (semi-OP)
There might be more, but here's what I have for now.


Starting with the DK1 room list and building up... we get.
- Guardpost (with Water & Lava)
- Bridge (with Lava)
- Prison (with Imp never-dying in room as well as the usual)
- Torture Chamber
- Temple (with Water & Lava & Boulder Trap & Create Imp)
- Graveyard (with various imp killing means)
- Scavenger Room (enemy keeper with same creatures as you)

Spells
- Possession (use a creature to lure an enemy into area that he cannot get out of)
- Create Imp (with Temple) - spawn as many Imps as possible to prevent spawns and new reinforcements from occurring
- Sight of Evil - used with Cave In and Lightning
- Haste - double attacks of your whole army
- Cave-In - used Sight of Evil. kill resting units after a battle, or just about anything...
- Lightning - self-explanatory. even without Sight of Evil
- Conceal - use best with Level 3 Imps to claim the enemy Keeper's territory out from under them.
- Chicken - apart from the usual, pick a fight near an enemy Hatchery and Lair, Chicken full blast the 1-2 creatures you want dead, damage some beasties (especially Bile Demons). retreat and watch them kill themselves!
- Vampire Sacrifice - variation of Graveyard and Disease. IF you can't research this spell / can't cast it on your own creatures, put all your Creatures in the Temple except 1-2 you want as "Messengers", Disease them and send them in.
- Call-To-Arms - use with Teleport to constantly "set" the enemy call to arms. sometimes your creatures will even teleport to the dungeon heart

Workshop
- Boulder Trap
- Lava Trap
- Lightning Trap (if placed fill a room and kiting enemies around)
- Trap build order - you can keep building one trap forever if you set up right

Terrain
- long winding, winding corridors. best used with make safe if you're expecting tunneller invasion.
- reinforced walls

Metal Gear Rex
June 16th, 2011, 06:41
- Dragons (semi-OP)
- Bile Demons (semi-OP)

I have to ask you, what makes you consider the Dragon even semi-overpowered? I feel the Dragon is fine the way he is. In the original, he might be considered a bit underpowered due to the fact that Word of Power dealt no damage, and because the Player has the Bile Demon.

The Bile Demon is much more powerful compared to the Dragon, because he has so much more Health. While the Dragon has more Armor, it isn't a fair enough exchange. The Bile Demon also can deal good damage, and has the power of Poison Gas obtained early on which makes him deadly in groups.

Out of the things you mentioned, I find that some of them are only overpowered if used excessively. The Torture Chamber is a good example. There's nothing wrong with converting a few units to your side, but if you're converting every unit you come across, then it becomes broken. (The only time I actually convert every Creature is when I'm looking to build a "Master Dungeon") So perhaps you should put "When Spammed" in parentheses at the end to make it more accurate as to when it is abusable.

* * *

As for strategies, I usually try to adapt my strategy to my situation, while of course not really using abusable tactics/overpowered units. So because of that, I can't really say I have a solid strategy. I am very careful with my units though, rarely do I let a single one die. (And no, I do not reload saves if a unit dies, I live with it)

I also use whatever Creatures are given to me, even if I'm given Beetles, I'll use them. Train them up to Level 7 and take advantage of their Freeze. This makes the game more interesting as even on the same map, I'll be put in a different situation right off the start because my army is different. It also provides good training for adapting to different situations.

The only time I start sacking them is if I reach a certain "limit". For the average unit, the limit is 4-6. For the more powerful units, like the Dark Mistress, 1-2. This is so I can get a well balanced army without a lot of overpowered units. I think that having 1 or 2 strong units (as long as they're not a Horned Reaper, those things are the kings of overpoweredness) is perfectly fine.

Zyraen
June 16th, 2011, 07:11
I have to ask you, what makes you consider the Dragon even semi-overpowered? I feel the Dragon is fine the way he is. In the original, he might be considered a bit underpowered due to the fact that Word of Power dealt no damage, and because the Player has the Bile Demon.

The Bile Demon is much more powerful compared to the Dragon, because he has so much more Health. While the Dragon has more Armor, it isn't a fair enough exchange. The Bile Demon also can deal good damage, and has the power of Poison Gas obtained early on which makes him deadly in groups.
Firstly, from your "You use a lot of overpowered units. That's pretty much why you're winning with brute force, because you have an overpowered army."
when I described an army consisting of Dragons, Bile Demons and later Mistresses, it would imply that either Dragons or Bile Demons or Both were overpowered, especially since Mistresses arrive generally later.

I've used Dragons and Bile Demons in multiple fights, and I can assure you that in general the Dragons outperform Bile Demons simply because of Heal and their better Armor. Its true they deal less damage, but they can fight forever and a day and the Bile Demons can't. The HP gap isn't much too, only about 33% more Health (900 vs 1200).

At low levels, Bile Demons are a liability because they damage your own units, and Dragons don't. Their Poison Gas only deals decent damage to low level units (ie 5 and below), units above 5 generally take fairly little damage proportional to their Health from Poison Gas. I've used levels 5-7 Bile Demons and Dragons in multiple hero "invasion" scenarios (like Korros Tor the dwarf + archer lake, Benetzaron's dwarf + archer caverns, Batezek's thief, dwarf, archer caverns) and can assure you that while Bile Demons can hit more often (especially Archers which Dragons almost cannot touch), they lack the staying power of Dragons. I'm not sure, but this is generally before Dragons have Word of Power (which I know, it does damage in KeeperFX).

Not least, Dragons train faster and can be obtained about the same time, if not earlier than Bile Demons. So if you consider Bile Demons OP, then Dragons are even more OP.

In the Final level of Skybird Trill, when the Avatar is killed (or converted) and revives, there are 2 rooms in the Southeast of the map, previously a Hero Keep, both of which spawn an identical party (I think its Wizard, Witch, Fairy, Samurai, Knight something like that). If you lock both rooms with a Magic Door and place 6 Bile Demons in one room and 6 Dragons in another room, assuming all are level 10, you can see which one does better.

To be fair, though, in an enclosed space the Dragons' drawback is reduced, which is that they move like a Snail, but they are still incapacitated for a short while by Wind which Bile Demons are not affected by.

===========


Out of the things you mentioned, I find that some of them are only overpowered if used excessively.
Apart from dropping / picking my Creatures, weeding units from the Portal and using spells like Speed, Protect, Heal (I usually don't use Lightning), I don't generally use any strategy excessively. My typical force has usually about 2-3 Dark Mistresses, max, not because I don't want them but because they don't often come in through the portal and I don't generally throw away my starter forces (that and a creature cap of about 15-20 for most Deeper Dungeons levels).


As for strategies, I usually try to adapt my strategy to my situation, while of course not really using abusable tactics/overpowered units.

I am very careful with my units though, rarely do I let a single one die. (And no, I do not reload saves if a unit dies, I live with it)

I also use whatever Creatures are given to me, even if I'm given Beetles, I'll use them.
I probably should try to do what you do, basically a No-Reloads game on Deeper Dungeon :) of course I'll reload for really stupid things like digging out some stuff wrongly (that really gets on my nerves, and sadly no Fly can ever scout that out for me... ).

Unless I am really bored or desperate, I don't use Lightning or Cave-In or the Scavenger Room (usually its not available in Deeper Dungeons anyway)

While I do use Strong units, I generally aim for a Rush Game where I will use tactics to try and get rid of the enemy. This may involve taking on a much stronger enemy if I have (set up) a backdoor to his dungeon heart, or using careful Wall Reinforcements followed by 2-3 Lava Traps and Guardposts to cut the enemy from his Gems where possible.

Again, if desperate or my army is just seriously outclassed by the enemy (ie weak units compared to the Enemy's 4+ level 10 Dark Mistress), I may resort to raising a few Vampires, usually just 2-3, for purpose of tanking the enemies.

Other Rush Games involve using as weak units as possible to release the Heroes while keeping my own heart safe, then releasing them on the enemy Keeper.

Would this be considered abuse? Its not excessive but its certainly used, and usually it does win the game.

Metal Gear Rex
June 16th, 2011, 08:06
Firstly, from your "You use a lot of overpowered units. That's pretty much why you're winning with brute force, because you have an overpowered army."
when I described an army consisting of Dragons, Bile Demons and later Mistresses, it would imply that either Dragons or Bile Demons or Both were overpowered, especially since Mistresses arrive generally later.


Maybe as a DK1 player, I hardly ever get the Library unless I use Brute Force, then again I would have won if I were able to get the Library. My most typical "urgent" win (usually when running low on gold and outnumbered) is to get a "backdoor" set up, but not yet opened, CtA and start fighting on one front with a fast moving hard-hitter on spare (eg. Dark Mistress, Horny), then tear down that last wall / Gold Tile and rush the Heart.

This is your example when speaking about Brute Force. I was referring to your Dark Mistress and Horned Reaper abuse.


I've used Dragons and Bile Demons in multiple fights, and I can assure you that in general the Dragons outperform Bile Demons simply because of Heal and their better Armor. Its true they deal less damage, but they can fight forever and a day and the Bile Demons can't. The HP gap isn't much too, only about 33% more Health (900 vs 1200).

Later on, the Bile Demon starts to really outdue the Dragon. The Health differences becomes wider, but the Armor difference stays the same. The Bile Demon has 60 Armor, and the Dragon has 90. It seems like a fair trade at first, but the damage absorbed by the Dragon is 35%, while the Bile Demon absorbs 24%. It is a difference of 11% only.

I've seen Dragons forced to retreat back to the Lair long before a Bile Demon must retreat, and then the Dragon rests up and rejoins the battle with the Bile Demon still standing due to his monsterous health. Combine this with the better damage output, and I'd still have to say the Bile Demon is more effective.


At low levels, Bile Demons are a liability because they damage your own units, and Dragons don't. Their Poison Gas only deals decent damage to low level units (ie 5 and below), units above 5 generally take fairly little damage proportional to their Health from Poison Gas. I've used levels 5-7 Bile Demons and Dragons in multiple hero "invasion" scenarios (like Korros Tor the dwarf + archer lake, Benetzaron's dwarf + archer caverns, Batezek's thief, dwarf, archer caverns) and can assure you that while Bile Demons can hit more often (especially Archers which Dragons almost cannot touch), they lack the staying power of Dragons. I'm not sure, but this is generally before Dragons have Word of Power (which I know, it does damage in KeeperFX).

Poison Gas deals more damage if there's more of it. I've noticed that multiple Gas Traps lower a Creature's Health faster compared to a solo Gas Traps. I witnessed it in possession. That being said, if you get a large group of Bile Demons to fight, then they become significantly more effective.


Not least, Dragons train faster and can be obtained about the same time, if not earlier than Bile Demons. So if you consider Bile Demons OP, then Dragons are even more OP.

Depends on whether a Lair or a Hatchery is built first, and whether or not a Portal is claimed before they're both built. The difference is so small that it really isn't worth mentioning, they're both obtained usually before the Training Room is built.


In the Final level of Skybird Trill, when the Avatar is killed (or converted) and revives, there are 2 rooms in the Southeast of the map, previously a Hero Keep, both of which spawn an identical party (I think its Wizard, Witch, Fairy, Samurai, Knight something like that). If you lock both rooms with a Magic Door and place 6 Bile Demons in one room and 6 Dragons in another room, assuming all are level 10, you can see which one does better.

To be fair, though, in an enclosed space the Dragons' drawback is reduced, which is that they move like a Snail, but they are still incapacitated for a short while by Wind which Bile Demons are not affected by.

Actually, in that situation, it'd be more of a disadvantage to the Bile Demons. If the Bile Demons are farther apart from the Melee Units due to the Whirlwind, they won't attack them for a while longer. Meaning they'll have to use time getting closer to them and meanwhile get hit by a bunch of attacks from the support Units.

Also note that the Wizard and Fairy are immune to Poison Gas, which puts the Bile Demon at a further disadvantage. The Dragons have Word of Power, which is rather overpowered in KeeperFX. (Yes DL, if you're reading this, I think increasing the damage even further is a bad move!) It can take out about half of a Level 1 Vampire's health, meaning it does ~400 damage.

In such a small room, everyone is going to get hit by that blast. And there are 6 Dragons so that's six separate blasts. (~2400 Damage!) It is the first thing they use too, meaning they'll take out most of the support before the battle even begins. Quite a bad example I must say. (The damage, according to the DK1 Guide, is supposed to be 200-220 damage, meaning it really needs to be toned down a lot)


I probably should try to do what you do, basically a No-Reloads game on Deeper Dungeon :) of course I'll reload for really stupid things like digging out some stuff wrongly (that really gets on my nerves, and sadly no Fly can ever scout that out for me... ).

I don't even reload saves for that. I wouldn't allow myself to get in such a bad spot to begin with. Usually before mining out, I use Sight of Evil to scout the land. If I don't have that, then I start moving over separate parts of the land and listening. If I hear water or lava, I know not to mine there unless I'm prepared to open up.

I also know to look carefully at how a certain part of the map is shaped. I know very well that gold can be used to lure people over, but also the placement of Impentrable Rock and Gold can give me a good hint of what could possibly be there.


Unless I am really bored or desperate, I don't use Lightning or Cave-In or the Scavenger Room (usually its not available in Deeper Dungeons anyway)

I only use Lightning sparingly. I don't use the fully charged blast either, I like to stick with the uncharged blast. I think it is almost completely safe to spam an uncharged blast due to the fact that it does so little damage and only to a single unit.

I don't use Cave-In at all because of the problem with the AI in that they'll flee to their Lair if hit by it. I also don't use the Scavenger Room (though I oddly may still build one) because you can gain an additional unit far too easily. It is a question of how much gold you have.


While I do use Strong units, I generally aim for a Rush Game where I will use tactics to try and get rid of the enemy. This may involve taking on a much stronger enemy if I have (set up) a backdoor to his dungeon heart, or using careful Wall Reinforcements followed by 2-3 Lava Traps and Guardposts to cut the enemy from his Gems where possible.

Would this be considered abuse? Its not excessive but its certainly used.


Out of the things you mentioned, I find that some of them are only overpowered if used excessively.

Using Guard Posts combined with Water/Lava is clearly an exploit that probably wasn't even intended. That is an abusable tactic as it is, using it even once can be considered abuse.

Zyraen
June 16th, 2011, 09:03
Not least, Dragons train faster and can be obtained about the same time, if not earlier than Bile Demons. So if you consider Bile Demons OP, then Dragons are even more OP.

Depends on whether a Lair or a Hatchery is built first, and whether or not a Portal is claimed before they're both built. The difference is so small that it really isn't worth mentioning, they're both obtained usually before the Training Room is built.
Hmm I think you miss the point. I am saying indeed that they are both generally obtained at the same time.
My Point is that, if they all start Training at exactly the same time, and all the creatures NEVER leave the Training Room (except for short Treasure Room sprinkles), my Dragons turn level 7 while the Bile Demons are still at level 5.


Poison Gas deals more damage if there's more of it. I've noticed that multiple Gas Traps lower a Creature's Health faster compared to a solo Gas Traps. I witnessed it in possession. That being said, if you get a large group of Bile Demons to fight, then they become significantly more effective.
Ooh that's nice. I usually use 4-6 Bile Demons and they usually end up getting spread out, so I might not have noticed.


I've seen Dragons forced to retreat back to the Lair long before a Bile Demon must retreat, and then the Dragon rests up and rejoins the battle with the Bile Demon still standing due to his monsterous health. Combine this with the better damage output, and I'd still have to say the Bile Demon is more effective.

I've seen the opposite, BUT my Bile Demons were generally 1-2 levels lower than my Dragons.


Also note that the Wizard and Fairy are immune to Poison Gas, which puts the Bile Demon at a further disadvantage.
Oh yes, I totally forgot about this bit, especially the Fairy immunity. I have to note that a Samurai will tear up a Bile Demon faster than a Dragon though, at just about any level (unless of course, the Dragon dies while Frozen and has no chance to Heal).


The Dragons have Word of Power, which is rather overpowered in KeeperFX. (Yes DL, if you're reading this, I think increasing the damage even further is a bad move!) It can take out about half of a Level 1 Vampire's health, meaning it does ~400 damage.
And at full level 10, probably the Word of Power plays quite a significant role to the Dragon's Advantage, like you said. I would also add that Meteor is very useful as well, combined with Pick and Drop, I can use 4-6 Dragons to launch a string of Meteors at a target (usually a squishy Fairy that has Rebound just end). The Dragon in KeeperFX generally only fires the Meteor when Dropped, or when the enemy is retreating from them.

Same Availability + Increased Training Rate + Meteor + Word of Power, I still think the Dragon is noticeably superior to the Bile Demon.

Further, if you look at the Hero / Creature Value thread, you will notice that Dragon generally ranks above a Bile Demon. Well, of course not on your own list.

But anyway, this is just a discussion :)

Edit : if it is a close call between the Bile Demon and the Dragon, even then it might not be right to classify one as OP and the other as not. They're either both OP or both not OP, or both semi-OP.


Using Guard Posts combined with Water/Lava is clearly an exploit that probably wasn't even intended. That is an abusable tactic as it is, using it even once can be considered abuse.
So would it be abuse if I simply used Lava Traps WITHOUT Guardpost / Temple ? Its all becoming very subjective to your views, you know...

Then again, that tends to happen if there's mainly just 2 pple on a thread lol.

Searingflame2
June 16th, 2011, 10:39
Only a couple things I do are worth mentioning, I'd say.

-Trap-based economies. That is, in maps with relatively little gold, chuck everyone in the workshop and build/sell magic doors (or the highest selling alternative) to have sufficient gold to train and for pay days, but at the same time not exploiting the instant-win of boulder traps.

-Dragon training. That is, possessing a dragon and breathing fire on my own units (highest xp gain per possession, Avatar is preferred, Knights are good, so are other dragons) Works with hell hounds too, obviously, and some others with faster attack rates, but pretty much everyone against an avatar.

I'd like to raise that in a very large amount of player-made content, things listed as 'exploits' are very deliberately implemented as nothing less than 'use this exploit or you can't finish the map'.
In addition, getting infinite imps (or just enough to hit the 255 unit cap, whatever) is awful, but getting 40 odd is perfectly legit. Its a financial investment! Can't say that's cheating.

Zyraen
June 16th, 2011, 10:59
Wow that's great, I never thought of dragon training. Makes great sense though, high XP per hit, rapid hit per Flame...


I'd like to raise that in a very large amount of player-made content, things listed as 'exploits' are very deliberately implemented as nothing less than 'use this exploit or you can't finish the map'.

I'm actually trying to avoid use of Exploits in my Campaign, by deliberately stopping it, and some by making some changes to rules.cfg (which will require a separate copying operation). The full list is here... if interested, since its off-topic.

Basically all the following are affected...
- Mistress : Haste removed, Life decreased
- Horned Reaper : Life decreased to match Bile Demon. (previous nerf was STR and DEX reduced to Samurai level)
- Dragons : now come in with Barracks, effectively swapping with Orcs, (Orcs come in with a 5x5 Training Room)
- Vampires : resurrect only on two levels, levels 9 and 10. I am still reviewing how to adjust the XP required for level up, since it was very high starting from level 4, I guess that's due to Immortality.

- Guardpost : removed
- Bridge : less Lava on levels
- Prison : generally not available. this makes Torture Chamber less OP
- Temple : every level has one, you have to find it. you can't build it even after you get it. this also makes it harder to get Horned Reapers
- Graveyard : bodies no longer decompose in it. it is a trophy case, and even then you need 100 corpses to raise a vampire.
- Scavenger Room : generally not available

Spells
- Create Imp : you can no longer sacrifice an imp for cheaper imps
- Cave-In, Lightning, Haste, Conceal, Chicken, Disease : generally removed from the Player
- Creature Teleport : removed. no longer abusable with Call-to-Arms.
- Destroy Walls : generally, you will not be able to research this, and your enemies will START with it. So reinforced walls will still keep Heroes out, but less effective against Enemy Keepers.

Workshop
- Boulder Trap, Lava Trap : generally removed
- Magic Door : generally removed, but if gold is not an issue, it may be buildable as well
- All Traps have price reduced to 10 gold

Heroes
- most of the enemy "Keepers" will now be using Hero Units
- some hero units have been tweaked (ie, powered up) to be more effective counterparts against the Keepers troops
- the Hero Keeper generally has a stronger troop selection as compared to the Dungeon Keeper. so letting him build up through Turtle tactics is generally a BAD move
- He will also be allied with Player_Good (of course)
- He may have a Scavenger Room and start to Scavenge the (powerful) Player_Good creatures

Other Notes
- Insects generally removed / not in the Creature Pool
- Powerful creatures like Dragons, Mistresses, Vampires generally have only 1-2 in the Creature Pool
- "Regular" creatures like Demonspawn, Orcs, Warlocks, Bile Demons are generally limited to 8 in the pool.
- Apart from taking up your precious Portal Max, Trolls can now be used to upgrade some weaker units at the Temple (which you usually have to fight to reach) through sacrifice. To curb their effectiveness, there are generally only 4 in the pool, and they are capped at level 4.
- Dead Creatures no longer return to the Creature Pool. they DIE.

Under Consideration : upgrading Bile Demons to the "Powerful" Creature section. thanks to discussion with MGR in this thread.

There might be more, but here's what I have for now.

BTW, do you feel that the Guardpost / Temple blockages are generally required to complete Deeper Dungeons?

Metal Gear Rex
June 16th, 2011, 10:59
Hmm I think you miss the point. I am saying indeed that they are both generally obtained at the same time.
My Point is that, if they all start Training at exactly the same time, and all the creatures NEVER leave the Training Room (except for short Treasure Room sprinkles), my Dragons turn level 7 while the Bile Demons are still at level 5.


I've seen the opposite, BUT my Bile Demons were generally 1-2 levels lower than my Dragons.

Bile Demons train slow probably because they're stronger tanks and it is to balance them. If your Bile Demons were the same level as your Dragons, then I think they'd prove themselves better. I personally think that Dragons shouldn't have a Training Rate of 3 because of the fact that they're tanks with WoP. Of course, this only applies to FX where I find WoP a bit overpowered.


Oh yes, I totally forgot about this bit, especially the Fairy immunity. I have to note that a Samurai will tear up a Bile Demon faster than a Dragon though, at just about any level (unless of course, the Dragon dies while Frozen and has no chance to Heal).


And at full level 10, probably the Word of Power plays quite a significant role to the Dragon's Advantage, like you said. I would also add that Meteor is very useful as well, combined with Pick and Drop, I can use 4-6 Dragons to launch a string of Meteors at a target (usually a squishy Fairy that has Rebound just end). The Dragon in KeeperFX generally only fires the Meteor when Dropped, or when the enemy is retreating from them.

Same Availability + Increased Training Rate + Meteor + Word of Power, I still think the Dragon is noticeably superior to the Bile Demon.

I don't consider the "Pick and Drop" strategy to be part of a Unit's balance. That abuse more so relates to the spells themselves. More specifically, the ones that have a lot of attack power but a long recharge time. Word of Power or Meteor are both good examples of that.


Further, if you look at the Hero / Creature Value thread, you will notice that Dragon generally ranks above a Bile Demon. Well, of course not on your own list.

Not everyone puts the Horned Reaper on the top and yet he's clearly the most overpowered unit in the game. Do note that personal favorites may also influence their thoughts. They could put the Warlock up first because they personally like him based on what he is. Could even put the Dark Mistress up first, not because she's overpowered, but because she's successfully seduced them... I doubt it but it could happen XD

Mentioning what I put is a bit pointless as it was quite a while back, and I don't even remember what I put there. Now, I couldn't decide as I don't really hold favorites anymore. Of course, if forced to make said list, I wouldn't include the overpowered nor underpowered units.


Edit : if it is a close call between the Bile Demon and the Dragon, even then it might not be right to classify one as OP and the other as not. They're either both OP or both not OP, or both semi-OP.

I find that the Bile Demon is more powerful than the Dragon in general, but there are situations where one may prove to be more useful. I think the above example you provided is very unfair to the Bile Demon because he was at a disadvantage and the Dragon was at an advantage.


So would it be abuse if I simply used Lava Traps WITHOUT Guardpost / Temple ? Its all becoming very subjective to your views, you know...

How abusable Lava Traps are I think depend on how you use them. If you used them to block off your Dungeon Heart in a Hero Map and thus preventing any non-flying Hero from reaching your Dungeon Heart, then I'd consider it abuse. If you're using it to not really cutting off anyone from reaching your Dungeon Heart but rather making it so they have to walk along more Traps like below...

(E = Entrance to Room, O = Player's Land, L = Lava Trap, T = Gas/Lightning/etc Trap)
OE OO
OT TO
L L TO
L L TO
OTOO
OE OO

...then I think it is alright.


Then again, that tends to happen if there's mainly just 2 pple on a thread lol.

Once we get into these debates, nobody ever dares getting involved in them, or so I noticed. XD
(I see you Searing, and damns you for contradicting me! D:<)

EDIT:
Stupid ninjas... :samurai:

Zyraen
June 16th, 2011, 11:09
So MGR / Searing Flame, any tips on how I might slot the Bile Demon into the current build order?
The idea is that the stronger units show up later (just like most other RTSs), so Dragons have been assigned to Barracks and Orcs have been brought forward to a large Training Room.

Alternatively, maybe Workshop and Hatchery now attracts Bile Demon? Its not much of a delay, but there's still some lag.
Although personally, I think my Dragons still catch up in training with the Bile Demons pretty much faster, and most of the games I intend to design both Time & Gold will be factors.

Edit : Knight with WOP and DEF 50 is definitely worth a good fight :)
I was testing a remake of level 15 Woodly Rhyme, where the Knight 10 with DEF:50, Heal and WOP turned out to be even more of a challenge to my level 4-7 minions than the 2 level 10 Samurai that rushed in before him... Not least because my warlocks couldn't do much against his Rebound. Fortunately though the trio was spawned as a party they split up, else I would be surely dead.
( Why did I break out without Training up my Creatures? well simply because the gems are now outside in the water, that's why >:D )
That said, yes I did notice that a single WOP takes about 2.5 "leaves" off my level 6 Dragon's Lifebar...

Metal Gear Rex
June 16th, 2011, 11:17
So MGR, any tips on how I might slot the Bile Demon into the current build order?
The idea is that the stronger units show up later (just like most other RTSs), so Dragons have been assigned to Barracks and Orcs have been brought forward to a large Training Room.

Alternatively, maybe Workshop and Hatchery now attracts Bile Demon? Its not much of a delay, but there's still some lag.
Although personally, I think my Dragons still catch up in training with the Bile Demons pretty much faster, and most of the games I intend to design both Time & Gold will be factors.

Bile Demons and Dragons both have other jobs to do, which is to Manufacture and Research respectfully. Therefore, I think it is okay that they're around early on as they need to both do their jobs.

Bile Demons train slow enough as it is, so if they're obtained any later, they're going to have a hard time keeping up. As I said previously, I think a Dragon's training rate is too high. What you should do is drop a Dragon's Training Rate to 2 instead of 3.

Something else you could try would to lower the Bile Demon's Armor so that he doesn't have so much. I began testing this to see if it can balance the two out. I also gave the Dragon Protect at Level 5 and lowered the Bile Demon's Strength from 80 to 70. And I also lowered Word of Power's Base Damage from 85 to 40. (It increases every level, I forgot what the percentage increase was though)

I'm not sure if this would quite work with you though because your units are only going to be as balanced as your campaign lets them be. You're already changing a lot of other things as well which are outside of what I'm trying to test.

Zyraen
June 16th, 2011, 11:24
I had about level 4-7 trained Minions against a Level 10 Knight (tweaked with 50 DEF) and 2 Level 10 Samurai (tweaked with 800 HP. They have Speed at level 5 instead of Sight, but that doesn't matter since they're level 10).

I think there were 4 Orcs at level 7 (none lasted very long, but none died), 2 Dragons at level 6-7 (the max for the level), 2 Mistresses, both level 5 (one became 6 in midfight), 6 Warlocks at level 4-5 (god they train slowly, plus now they have to research), 2 Demonspawn at level 6-7, 4 Bile Demons at level 5-6.

Altogether 20 minions, and it was a very good (read close) fight... its hard, if that's what you mean :) Balanced in the sense that, I could still kill them.
The enemy Hero Keepers were about level 6-7 with their highest units, but their small training room and long hatchery distance meant they overall were trained more slowly than me. It sucked though that they had Lightning even though I remember I clearly REM the line in the script...

Most of the Campaign simply removes convenient gems and place them in slightly more inconvenient places. It also uses Scripts to substitute a "dead" Keeper while you're killing the other one, so at least you have some harrassment from that direction from time-to-time.

I'm considering making it optional, but also to have a "Build-Up" area, where basically a bunch of Heroes gather every time interval. When both Keepers are dead, they simply burst out and attack you. So if you take too long, with your few creatures (generally 18-24) you're good as dead.

Metal Gear Rex
June 16th, 2011, 11:32
I had about level 4-7 trained Minions against a Level 10 Knight (tweaked with 50 DEF) and 2 Level 10 Samurai (tweaked with 800 HP. They have Speed at level 5 instead of Sight, but that doesn't matter since they're level 10).

I think there were 4 Orcs at level 7 (none lasted very long, but none died), 2 Dragons at level 6-7 (the max for the level), 2 Mistresses, both level 5 (one became 6 in midfight), 6 Warlocks at level 4-5 (god they train slowly, plus now they have to research), 2 Demonspawn at level 6-7, 4 Bile Demons at level 5-6.

Altogether 20 minions, and it was a very good (read close) fight... its hard, if that's what you mean :) Balanced in the sense that, I could still kill them.

I'm not sure if 20 Creatures barely being able to kill 3 Heroes is very balanced...


The enemy Hero Keepers were about level 6-7 with their highest units, but their small training room and long hatchery distance meant they overall were trained more slowly than me. It sucked though that they had Lightning even though I remember I clearly REM the line in the script...

Computer Players will cast Lightning regardless of whether they have the spell book or not. It is in their AI to do. Cheaters and Haxors is what I have to say about it.


I'm considering making it optional, but also to have a "Build-Up" area, where basically a bunch of Heroes gather every time interval. When both Keepers are dead, they simply burst out and attack you. So if you take too long, with your few creatures (generally 18-24) you're good as dead.

That seems more adapted to your own strategies. You like to rush to the enemy as previously stated, but not everyone likes to rush so quickly.

Zyraen
June 17th, 2011, 04:36
I'm not sure if 20 Creatures barely being able to kill 3 Heroes is very balanced...
Considering that most DK1 maps give you about 30+ Creatures that you can amply train up to level 10 to fight against 3-4 Heroes, I would say its not too far from the intent of the first batch of designers.

I'll have to find a way to tweak / fix the AI to prevent Lightning Hax.
The Idea is to make the game an intensive Creature Build-up Game, where the decisiveness lies with the preparation and fight rather than with broken spells like Lightning. Not least because most levels now you will be heavily dependent on Warlocks, since there are only 2 Mistresses (who have no Haste). Warlocks are immensely susceptible to Lightning.
Alternatively, I could simply tweak "normal" Protect Monster to last longer. Either way, both approaches are sub-optimal, as I had only wanted to edit 1 file, the Rules.CFG, to reduce hassle for the Player, and the rest is in the Campaign Packages.


That seems more adapted to your own strategies. You like to rush to the enemy as previously stated, but not everyone likes to rush so quickly.
Good point, I tend to forget that. Having the Enemy Keeper continuously grow stronger, at a higher Creature Max than you, should be disincentive enough.

Metal Gear Rex
June 17th, 2011, 04:53
Considering that most DK1 maps give you about 30+ Creatures that you can amply train up to level 10 to fight against 3-4 Heroes, I would say its not too far from the intent of the first batch of designers.

I think you're heavily exagerating that.


I'll have to find a way to tweak / fix the AI to prevent Lightning Hax.
The Idea is to make the game an intensive Creature Build-up Game, where the decisiveness lies with the preparation and fight rather than with broken spells like Lightning. Not least because most levels now you will be heavily dependent on Warlocks, since there are only 2 Mistresses (who have no Haste). Warlocks are immensely susceptible to Lightning.
Alternatively, I could simply tweak "normal" Protect Monster to last longer. Either way, both approaches are sub-optimal, as I had only wanted to edit 1 file, the Rules.CFG, to reduce hassle for the Player, and the rest is in the Campaign Packages.

At least they don't spam Lightning like some Players do.

Zyraen
June 17th, 2011, 06:41
Considering that most DK1 maps give you about 30+ Creatures that you can amply train up to level 10 to fight against 3-4 Heroes, I would say its not too far from the intent of the first batch of designers.
I think you're heavily exagerating that
I draw the distinction between DK1 and Deeper Dungeons, so its not an exaggeration. Most groups of Heroes you encounter for most of the game are mid level, typically level 7-8 max. The only time you encounter Level 9-10 Heroes are the last few Heroes, and even then they typically come in groups of no more than 3-5.
By then you usually have a sizeable following, even Portal Max aside you probably have at least a few Worthy Converts courtesy of the Prison / Torture Chamber. So no, there's no exaggeration intended. But if unintended, perhaps my memory fails me.

Woodly Rhyme was a very refreshing change from that with a party of 3 level 10 Heroes (Knight and 2 Samurais) starting on the level, but sadly you could easily turn them against Enemy Keepers.. so yeah.

======================

Back to Bile Demons / Dragons...

Bile Demons and Dragons both have other jobs to do, which is to Manufacture and Research respectfully. Therefore, I think it is okay that they're around early on as they need to both do their jobs.
Considering that Warlocks are capable researchers, and Workshop provides Trolls, and now Orcs come in early-game and are better Workshop-pers than Bile Demons (with their Haste), I don't think the jobs are relevant to their power.


Bile Demons train slow enough as it is, so if they're obtained any later, they're going to have a hard time keeping up.
Yep agreed.


As I said previously, I think a Dragon's training rate is too high. What you should do is drop a Dragon's Training Rate to 2 instead of 3.
Dragon's Training Rate is indeed very high for its early game appearance. DK1 was very consistent in that there was NO early game Creature you could get with a Training Value of 3, not even Demonspawn (Training Value 2). I find it very strange that Dragons were available from the start and could train this quickly.

There's 2 possibilities :
- Dragons should have reduced Training Rate
- Dragons should show up later in the game

Since Dark Mistresses comfortably catch up though they're late game but still result in a "power gap", I thought it made sense that Dragons would do the same, plus they have no Haste, and that they should be available at a later stage.

I would even venture to guess that Dragons had been initially designed as a late game addition (since they grow up from Demonspawn), hence the high Training Value, but this was later changed to make them directly accessible from the Portal.

In DK1, that "early Dragon" move all but eliminated Demonspawn from the game, and to some extent, affected Warlocks, Bile Demons. Bile Demons are pretty close to beating the Orc, but with Dragons available early on, Orcs are all but worthless in extended fights in comparison.

So, why not have Dragons and Bile Demons from the get-go and reduce the Training Value of Dragons? That would certainly make him fit in with the rest, yes?
Actually, based on his power level (especially vs Demonspawn) I think its simply not fitting in. The other big reason is that there's no much less incentive to Research. Note that like Deeper Dungeons, my proposed Tweaked Campaign (I've called it RoTK in my mind) removes most Powerful Spells making the other reason for Researching less.

I've played many Deeper Dungeons Games where I simply stopped researching after Guardpost / Bridge ( for use with Water blockage abuse ), or sometimes Workshops. Bile Demons and Dragons adequately trained up are quite sufficient to win the game on their own, whereas from SC1 Zealots, Zerglings / Hydralisks (though sometimes Hydralisks pull it off), and Space Marines are generally not sufficient to win the game except in a rush (they can be upgraded by not Trained).

With Dragons available later, then Mistresses & Vampires if you want them, there is some reason to research if to get your Portal Max filled out and trained. Their higher training rate means that they fit in well and won't slow down the advancement of your overall forces (if you research to get them reasonably quickly, of course), they should hit level 6-7 about the time the rest of your units (of training value 2) are about level 7-8.


Something else you could try would to lower the Bile Demon's Armor so that he doesn't have so much. I began testing this to see if it can balance the two out. I also gave the Dragon Protect at Level 5 and lowered the Bile Demon's Strength from 80 to 70.
I don't think Bile Demons need to have their Armor lowered, because it makes them useful tanks despite their slower Training Rate, and Dragons are plenty hard to kill already without having the Protect spell, even by Level 7 Dragons stand a fairly long time against a level 10 Knight aside from WOP.

Bile Demons might use a Strength Reduction though, I agree, but in that case aside from Reapers there are no hard hitting Melee units left in the game. The STR of various units in descending order are Reapers at STR 150, Dragons at STR 90 which they NEVER use, Bile Demons STR 80, Vampires STR 70 which again largely unused, Orcs STR 65.

Alternatively, I could try and tweak Orcs up to 70 or 75 and Bile Demons down to 70 or 75. This would make Orcs much more effective since they have Haste. What do you think? The idea is to "differentiate" the unit function, the Bile Demon becomes a Tanker and the Orc becomes what is a Flanker / Blitzer / whatever you like to call it.
Note that this doesn't really displace Demonspawn since they eventually grow up into Dragons.


And I also lowered Word of Power's Base Damage from 85 to 40. (It increases every level, I forgot what the percentage increase was though)
The Damage increase might just be proportional with the increase of every other stat / health, which would be 35% of the Base Damage (not current damage). But that's just a guess.

==================

As a simple alternative tweak, I was thinking to reduce Bile Demons to 4 in the pool? But 4 seems too little, and 6 seems so pointless it may as well be the standard 8. The main reason for 6 over 4 is to have a little "wiggle room" for a Horned Reaper Summoning. (given your limited numbers of creatures, it would be an expensive endeavour)
Note that 8 is the "standard" in the Tweaked Keeper campaign for "regular" units like Warlocks, Demonspawn, Orcs. And dead / sacrificed creatures do NOT return to the Pool.

The Campaign is meant as a holistic tweak for the entire build order of the game and Creature upgrading process, and nerfing abuses aside, to include limiting the supply of powerful units and stuff.
So there's not just Stat changes, there's a lot that can be done without directly changing the unit. Further a Unit changes based on its position in the build order, its availability and its usefulness relative to other units.
After all, slightly Nerfing a Unit is useless if there's going to be 30 of them in the pool / over Nerfing a Unit makes it pointless and probably defeats the purpose of that Creature in the first place, plus it takes away Game Flavour.

---------- Post added at 13:41 ---------- Previous post was at 12:36 ----------

As a minor but perhaps relevant note, in DK1 I remember being generally unable to drop even half of my units before the Heroes are dead / beaten.
The only notable exception is in the final level after the Avatar revives, and of course Mistle since you don't have a Training Room until you beat the Heroes (well, actually not if you follow my guide lol...)

Metal Gear Rex
June 17th, 2011, 06:43
I draw the distinction between DK1 and Deeper Dungeons, so its not an exaggeration. Most groups of Heroes you encounter for most of the game are mid level, typically level 7-8 max. The only time you encounter Level 9-10 Heroes are the last few Heroes, and even then they typically come in groups of no more than 3-5.
By then you usually have a sizeable following, even Portal Max aside you probably have at least a few Worthy Converts courtesy of the Prison / Torture Chamber. So no, there's no exaggeration intended. But if unintended, perhaps my memory fails me.

Woodly Rhyme was a very refreshing change from that with a party of 3 level 10 Heroes (Knight and 2 Samurais) starting on the level, but sadly you could easily turn them against Enemy Keepers.. so yeah.

In the original Campaign, you hardly ever get 30+ Creatures. In Deeper Dungeons, you gain even less. You shouldn't need 30 Level 10 Creatures to defeat 3 Heroes. That is not the direction they headed into. Heroes came at you with larger numbers than that, so I'm fairly certain your memory is fooling you.


Considering that Warlocks are capable researchers, and Workshop provides Trolls, and now Orcs come in early-game and are better Workshop-pers than Bile Demons (with their Haste), I don't think the jobs are relevant to their power.

Bile Demons still need to train a lot in order to get higher leveled.


Dragon's Training Rate is indeed very high for its early game appearance. DK1 was very consistent in that there was NO early game Creature you could get with a Training Value of 3, not even Demonspawn (Training Value 2). I find it very strange that Dragons were available from the start and could train this quickly.

There's 2 possibilities :
- Dragons should have reduced Training Rate
- Dragons should show up later in the game

Since Dark Mistresses comfortably catch up though they're late game but still result in a "power gap", I thought it made sense that Dragons would do the same, plus they have no Haste, and that they should be available at a later stage.

I would even venture to guess that Dragons had been initially designed as a late game addition (since they grow up from Demonspawn), hence the high Training Value, but this was later changed to make them directly accessible from the Portal.

No matter what Bullfrog may have intended, you still need to remember that they could have made a mistake with even their intentions. There's enough over/underpowered units to show that not all of Bullfrog's intentions were proerply balanced.

You went with the idea of Dragons appearing later in the game, but I went a different direction during some testing of mine. I decreased their Training Rate to 2, then I increased the Demon Spawn's Training Rate to 3 and decreased their EXP needed to level up slightly. They also can turn into Level 6 Dragons.

This, in theory, can make it so that Dragons can train to Level 6 before the Demon Spawn turns into a Level 6 Dragon if they're both training at the exact same time. However, if the Dragon spends a bit of time away from the Library, then the Demon Spawn will level up into a Level 6 Dragon before the Dragon hits Level 6. This can make the Demon Spawns useful in some strategies.


In DK1, that "early Dragon" move all but eliminated Demonspawn from the game, and to some extent, affected Warlocks, Bile Demons. Bile Demons are pretty close to beating the Orc, but with Dragons available early on, Orcs are all but worthless in extended fights in comparison.

Orcs aren't supposed to be tanks.


So, why not have Dragons and Bile Demons from the get-go and reduce the Training Value of Dragons? That would certainly make him fit in with the rest, yes?
Actually, based on his power level (especially vs Demonspawn) I think its simply not fitting in. The other big reason is that there's no much less incentive to Research. Note that like Deeper Dungeons, my proposed Tweaked Campaign (I've called it RoTK in my mind) removes most Powerful Spells making the other reason for Researching less.


I'm not sure if this would quite work with you though because your units are only going to be as balanced as your campaign lets them be. You're already changing a lot of other things as well which are outside of what I'm trying to test.

This is what I meant. In a normal game, you would need Dragons for the extra research that there is.


I've played many Deeper Dungeons Games where I simply stopped researching after Guardpost / Bridge ( for use with Water blockage abuse ), or sometimes Workshops.

Not everyone stops researching like that.


I don't think Bile Demons need to have their Armor lowered, because it makes them useful tanks despite their slower Training Rate, and Dragons are plenty hard to kill already without having the Protect spell, even by Level 7 Dragons stand a fairly long time against a level 10 Knight aside from WOP.

Dragons survive better in situations where they're not getting hit by a lot of damage fast thanks to their Heal. In situations where they are being damaged a lot though, their Heal can't keep up and the Bile Demon outdoes them. That's why he's lasting a long time against the Knight.

Also, like I said before, I'm not sure if my suggestions would work for you. I'm testing different things for other reasons. So far, the things I've tested have given me the results I expected/needed.


Bile Demons might use a Strength Reduction though, I agree, but in that case aside from Reapers there are no hard hitting Melee units left in the game. The STR of various units in descending order are Reapers at STR 150, Dragons at STR 90 which they NEVER use, Bile Demons STR 80, Vampires STR 70 which again largely unused, Orcs STR 65.

Alternatively, I could try and tweak Orcs up to 70 or 75 and Bile Demons down to 70 or 75. This would make Orcs much more effective since they have Haste. What do you think? The idea is to "differentiate" the unit function, the Bile Demon becomes a Tanker and the Orc becomes what is a Flanker / Blitzer / whatever you like to call it.

Orcs are fine the way they are. Remember their Speed, so increasing their Strength by 5 is like increasing their Strength by 10.


Note that this doesn't really displace Demonspawn since they eventually grow up into Dragons.

I think that the Demon Spawn doesn't have enough time to train into a Dragon still under your settings, based on what you've told me. Unless of course Research was moving slowly due to an unlucky lack of Warlocks or something.


The Damage increase might just be proportional with the increase of every other stat / health, which would be 35% of the Base Damage (not current damage). But that's just a guess.

It is either 20%, 30%, or 35%. I forgot which.


As a simple alternative tweak, I was thinking to reduce Bile Demons to 4 in the pool? But 4 seems too little, and 6 seems so pointless it may as well be the standard 8. The main reason for 6 over 4 is to have a little "wiggle room" for a Horned Reaper Summoning. (given your limited numbers of creatures, it would be an expensive endeavour)
Note that 8 is the "standard" in the Tweaked Keeper campaign for "regular" units like Warlocks, Demonspawn, Orcs. And dead / sacrificed creatures do NOT return to the Pool.

The Campaign is meant as a holistic tweak for the entire build order of the game and Creature upgrading process, and nerfing abuses aside, to include limiting the supply of powerful units and stuff.
So there's not just Stat changes, there's a lot that can be done without directly changing the unit. Further a Unit changes based on its position in the build order, its availability and its usefulness relative to other units.
After all, slightly Nerfing a Unit is useless if there's going to be 30 of them in the pool / over Nerfing a Unit makes it pointless and probably defeats the purpose of that Creature in the first place, plus it takes away Game Flavour.

I am starting to think that you're limiting the Player too much. Unfortunately, there's a point where you can't eliminate an exploit without ruining some of the gameplay. An overpowered Creature can be fixed so it can be used, but an exploitable tactic like the Guard Post next to water cannot be eliminated without getting rid of the Guard Post. And that's when you start ruining some of the Gameplay. How am I going to get some of my Creatures to guard vital areas of my dungeon now?

---------- Post added at 22:43 ---------- Previous post was at 22:42 ----------


and of course Mistle since you don't have a Training Room until you beat the Heroes (well, actually not if you follow my guide lol...)

I'm guessing you used abusable tactics.

Zyraen
June 17th, 2011, 06:59
Heroes came at you with larger numbers than that
Yes, but I emphasise, NOT at Level 10. The Level 10s were generally few in number, about 3-5 per showing and usually the last party.


Bile Demons still need to train a lot in order to get higher leveled.
Yeah My Bile Demons have to be training from the start. I usually train them to at least level 5 before they start workshop, which means that I don't have to rush my Research. And if I don't need traps they won't workshop till they're level 10 or 8 (if there's 2 Increase Levels)


I decreased their Training Rate to 2, then I increased the Demon Spawn's Training Rate to 3 and decreased their EXP needed to level up slightly....
This, in theory, can make it so that Dragons can train to Level 6 before the Demon Spawn turns into a Level 6 Dragon if they're both training at the exact same time. However, if the Dragon spends a bit of time away from the Library, then the Demon Spawn will level up into a Level 6 Dragon before the Dragon hits Level 6. This can make the Demon Spawns useful in some strategies.
That's a nice thought. My Demon Spawns could probably use some boosts too.
That said, the Strategy I guess would be to Train Warlocks, since that's the main advantage for having Dragons in the Library?


Dragons survive better in situations where they're not getting hit by a lot of damage fast thanks to their Heal. In situations where they are being damaged a lot though, their Heal can't keep up and the Bile Demon outdoes them. That's why he's lasting a long time against the Knight.
That explains a bit. I usually drop creatures in a minimum 1:1 ratio with Heroes (unless the Heroes are really weak or they're coming round a corner). That might explain why my Dragons always, always, always outperform Bile Demons. I guess I knew that but never realised it, thanks.


Orcs aren't supposed to be tanks.
Lol I never said they were. They just do too little damage since they spend little time in combat with their low health. I say this as my Orcs are my highest level units, yet they don't generally stay in the fight long enough.


Orcs are fine the way they are. Remember their Speed, so increasing their Strength by 5 is like increasing their Strength by 10.


I think that the Demon Spawn doesn't have enough time to train into a Dragon still under your settings, based on what you've told me.
That is half true. Most of the middle part of your Campaign you will be using high level demonspawn, think level 8-9 Demonspawn or mid-level Dragon. You will probably get the Dragon sometime after you secure your Gems (typically means you'll be constantly harrassed by attacks). At that point, a Demonspawn is still useful. I like the idea of appreciating Demon Spawn as Demon Spawn, rather than as a "let's get you over with so I can get a Dragon" unit. Demon spawns do have their own charm past level 7 as compared to a Dragon, but I'm probably just being sentimental / biased / silly.


I am starting to think that you're limiting the Player too much.
I think 8 Creatures is plenty, and is the reasonable number required to diversify your forces. Due to the limit of 8 Creatures for the Hand of Evil and the LIFO stacking of the creatures picked up, usually mixing creatures in the hand will require some fore thought on how to drop them, if its really critical (usually its not). You yourself mentioned you generally cap at 4-6 for each Creature.

I agree on the Guardpost, its hands-down my favourite building and not just because of Blockage. My Guardpost effectively prevents Lair disputes, and most importantly, sneaking into Training Room to use my limited (precious) gold...! But there's no real help for it.

Edit : I forgot to add, they have 4 Trolls they can train up to level 4 to upgrade their units via Sacrifice. It converts Demonspawns to Dragons, Orcs to Mistresses, as well as the standard Bile Demon and Mistress to Horned Reaper. The downside is that they will probably get their trolls before they break out to get the Gems, meaning after the Sacrifice they will end up with somewhat lower level units (if they sacrifice a level 10 minion with a level 4 troll they get a level 8 Creature), AND they are -1 down from their Portal Max, meaning they will soon have to retrain up another unit to make-up for that Troll's vacancy. So its Customisable but possibly a tough decision to make since by then your Enemies have more Creatures than you, are similar or close in Level, and just about every fighting Creature on your side counts.


I'm guessing you used abusable tactics.
Lol not at all. It just involves using your level 4 Vampire with your level 1 Minions to head north and kill all the Heroes until you reach the water area, then dig directly up to the Gems belonging to the Enemy Keeper and reinforcing him away from his Gold. You secure about 10-12 Gem Sides I think, then you can yawn while you build the stuff you want. From there you can Boulder trap the Heroes in the Corridor, or use Guardposts (abuse) to trap them in the water.

Last but not least, you can claim the Training Room without ever summoning the Lord of the Land and his 6 Samurai :) which is great since you can convert them later instead of squishing them with a Trap now.

Enker-Zan
June 17th, 2011, 09:13
Some combos of creatures I use:

Overrun type armies:

1. Orcs and Tentacles

2. Vampires and Warlocks

3. Spiders and Mistresses

4. Dragons and Mistresses

5. Bile Demons and Skeletons

Hit and Run armies:

1. Orcs and Hellhounds

2. Spiders and Skeletons

3. Mistresses and Demon Spawns

Rusher Armies:

1. Spiders and Flys

2. Demon Spawns and Beetles

3. Warlocks and Bile Demons

Zyraen
June 17th, 2011, 09:29
@Enker
Great stuff :) how do you manage them and why do they work together well? I can imagine some (like Bile Demon + Skeleton), but there are some that confuse me and others that I have absolutely no idea on (like Spider + Flies and Demonspawns + Beetles)

Enker-Zan
June 18th, 2011, 07:55
Yeah I should probably clarify as to why I use them lol:

Overrun type armies:

1. Orcs and Tentacles

Orcs are all around balanced and hit hard with good speed, an army of 8 or more will really mess up almost everything they come across. The Tentacles are there purely for support, the freeze ability along with their decent attack power combined with the orcs will make short work of alot of armies. This works best against Keepers with big slow monsters or melee based armies.

2. Vampires and Warlocks

Devastation in cloth robes as my roomate puts it. Vampires being cheap as they are, is a ranged tank. Putting them on the front line with a squad of Warlocks and you will have a laser show. You may think Reflect may save you from this, but it doesn't. The Vampires will jack you up as Drain goes through Reflect, and they hit pretty hard physicaly. Smart Keepers will retreat the Warlocks or get them to change targets when a Reflector comes into the field.

3. Spiders and Mistresses

Now you all probably wonder, why Spiders? Well by the time you get access to Mistresses, you will have a handful of Spiders that are trained. Since the Spider is one of very few units that get Freeze early on through training, they work well in front line offense. Combine their frontline Freezing with Mistresses and you got statues being used as target practice for lightning strikes.

4. Dragons and Mistresses

Similar to that of the above mentioned combo. Except the Dragons are there as big scaley green walls for the Mistresses to fire past. The Dragon's slow movement is backed up with Word of Power, which will send the enemy back about 10 feet when they get near. The knock back is what gives the Mistresses the extra time to blast the enemy back to hell from which they came.

5. Bile Demons and Skeletons

This one should be pretty obvious and similar to the above mentioned combo. Bile Demons are used as red walls of gassy death while Skeletons can wither pummel you or blast you with lightning pending on their level. Nothing survives in melee combat when they hit the red wall of gassy death.

Hit and Run armies:

1. Orcs and Hellhounds

As said before up above, the Orcs are well balanced and fast. Because they train fast, it makes it easy to hit and run. The Hellhounds are not so tough, but they are extremely fast, especialy around level 4-5. They are good for running down anything weaker than it, or jumping something bigger as a group. I think of this combo as the Attack Dog Patrol. If the hellhounds keep a creature down long enough, the Orcs will come and finish off whatever it was they were attacking.

2. Spiders and Skeletons

The same as the Spider and Mistress combo, except they can be trained and obtained faster. Making this a good hit and run combo. Spider will Freeze units and Skeletons will bash em till they die. Certain maps in the game this is favored for hit and run.

3. Mistresses and Demon Spawns

Odd combo isn't it? It throws the enemy off alot due to the mere pressence of the Demon Spawn. This is more of a bait trap that I used online alot back int he day. I would train up the Demon Spawns to about 5 in level. Then get the Mistresses to at least 6 or 7. I would walk in a a few Demon Spawns with a flag into an area where they can see, then wait for an enemy to attack. The Demon Spawns will distract the targets long enough for a a squad of Mistresses to light them up. This is awesome for baiting people that like to use Horned Reapers.

Rusher Armies:

1. Spiders and Flys

In alot of levels, the Spiders will come out of the portal as much as a Beetle and Fly would. you get ahold of 3-4 spiders and dig into the enemie's Dungeon while training them in the mean time. When you get in they should be about 2-3 in level. The Flys are there for slaughtering the Keeper's Imps while the Spiders keep the enemy busy, which cripples their ability to expand. If done right you can potentialy kill a Keeper with this.

2. Demon Spawns and Beetles

Similar to the Mistress and Demon Spawn combo said above. Difference here is these creatures are obtained much faster for a rush. The Beetles are used as a distraction while the Demon Spawns can either rush the enemy heart,or surprise attack the enemy attacking the Beetles. More of the quantity of Demon Spawns and Beetles you have, the better this works.

3. Warlocks and Bile Demons

Most people will say, this is more of a Overrun type army. it can be, but due to the abilities obtained through a small amount of training, these creatures are rush worthy! After you obtain at least 3 Bile Demons and Warlocks, train them untill you dig into the enemie's Dungeon then use the Bile Demons as tanks and Warlocks as support. This combo almost never fails me due to the defense the Bile Demons provide.

Hope this helps. :-)

Zyraen
June 29th, 2011, 04:50
Thank you EnkerZan! :) I've been meaning to catch you on Y!M but sadly our times just don't seem to meet, and anyway I'm travelling now so less likely to be online.
Something I've been DYING to ask about these strategies is...

1) How do you manage your Troop Types, how many of each Creature do you use? Do you use groups of 8+8 or less/more? (more relevant for non-rusher armies)

2) For Rusher Armies, the key is speed, but would it be right to say that should the wrong creatures come in from the Portal, it would slow down your "Rush" considerably? Or Portal Speed doesn't affect the "Rush" much? I gather that 3-4 of each creature would be sufficient for a rush, is that correct?

@MGR : Bile Demons vs Dragons
I ran a few tests with Creatures that have un-Nerfed Dexterity (restored based on numbers from dk.youfailit.net) and found that Dragons get screwed over much more easily than Bile Demons after that. I figure due to the High Dexterity the Dragons superior Defence doesn't help much, so they die much faster. That might explain why you feel Bile Demons are superior.

Keeper_Infernal
June 29th, 2011, 07:32
Hey guys! :)

I hope this is not too late to post here..

My strategy is usualy kinda abuseble,since i use guard posts,and lava traps.I like to train my creatures to high levels,or atleast to levels when they become very effective,for example i wont start a fight without my misstreses and spiders level7 (for freeze,hailstorm,lightning and speed) and ill train my warlocks atleast to level 5 (meteor),for the dragong bile demon,i dont try to train them much,only on boss levels,since it take soo much long to train a bile demon.I also always train my trolls to level 4,for a decent workshop army. I never ever throw creatures to the portal,or killing them with no reason, i use every thing ill get,even flys. About the building strategy,it depends on the map.If my dungeon is shaped like a fortress,i will always forfity the outer walls,if its not,then ill simply build my dungeon,and when I finish,I dig out every thing near my base,and i leave 2 lines of strong walls. I allso like to destroy and dig the entire map after the win (sometimes even before) but that is more like a habbit, then a strategy..

about the dragon vs bile demon argue:

I see dragons survive longer, yet bile demons damage harder.dragons are good for small rooms, since they are snail-slow, and word of power works on realy close range. Usually they use word of power, meteor,and then flame breath the crap out of the poor hero. The bile demons are good for wider spaces,simply cuz they like to spamm that fart skill, and they are imunne to that tornado attack. Bile demons are allso good at the workshop, while the draongs are real bookworms.The way a dragon overcomes the bile demon is by training much faster, and by bein a a killing machin with he flamebreath at possession.

So for a short,I like more dragons,yet I try to have both of them,for diferent situations.

Enker-Zan
June 30th, 2011, 12:15
Thank you EnkerZan! :) I've been meaning to catch you on Y!M but sadly our times just don't seem to meet, and anyway I'm travelling now so less likely to be online.
Something I've been DYING to ask about these strategies is...

1) How do you manage your Troop Types, how many of each Creature do you use? Do you use groups of 8+8 or less/more? (more relevant for non-rusher armies)

2) For Rusher Armies, the key is speed, but would it be right to say that should the wrong creatures come in from the Portal, it would slow down your "Rush" considerably? Or Portal Speed doesn't affect the "Rush" much? I gather that 3-4 of each creature would be sufficient for a rush, is that correct?

1. I always try to get at least 8 of the specified creatures needed for the strategy, usualy I do not go above the amount of 8 unless it is for overrun armies. having 8 or less makes it easier to pick up and drop things. Hit and run armies sometimes require the use of the Barracks, alot of times it isn't needed. There isn't much to "managing" them, other than always have them train or use the power level methods.

2. Depends on how you contruct your dungeon that effects the spawning of monsters from the portal.

Spiders and Flys Rush Example:

You just build a Lair+Hatchery, it will cause insects of various types to spawn. So when you get the amount of desired creatures you want to rush with, expand your dungeon. When I mean expand, I mean set up the training room and start digging to the other Keeper. You must remember to not keep rushing if you fail to take out that Keeper, you will waste resources doing that. If you know how to power level your creatures, it makes this work even better. I have killed someone with level 4 insects in less than 10 min. :lol:

Zyraen
June 30th, 2011, 14:38
I have killed someone with level 4 insects in less than 10 min. :lol:
zomg that is awesomeness...!

Power level - I assume you mean things like slapping your Training Minions, dropping Chickens, etc ways to make them train faster than normal, yes?

BTW would like to hear your advice - how much is the effectiveness of Must Obey?

PS : would you like to try out a "pro-rushing" level? there's no insects though... its actually a remake of Tulipscent, and you got to rush the enemy keeper, sorta... since if you leave him alone, he'll get more reinforcements, and he will generally attack you frequently. I've actually tried, but the terrain and the Magic Doors pretty much stop me dead in my tracks until a bit later.

Enker-Zan
July 1st, 2011, 06:41
I dunno, I haven't played much of the fan maps/campaigns up untill I found this site when I posted my MOD in here.

Keeper_Infernal
July 1st, 2011, 08:27
A really interesting question you asked here Zyraen which i realy want an answer for it at myself,what is the use of Must Obey? :confused:

Zyraen
July 1st, 2011, 08:56
Must Obey consumes your Gold every time interval, in return for increasing the speed of all your creatures and imps at whatever they are doing.
Personally, I haven't seen it being very effective, but I should pay more attention...

Can anyone give me a %tage estimate? Or is it like a Slap effect?

Keeper_Infernal
July 1st, 2011, 09:10
if it was like a slap effect,imagine a combination of slap+MO+Speed spell,your creatures will move like faster then Neo from matrix..

Perhaps 25% more? :confused:

Question:in the discription of the spell,it says that MO will prevent your minions from doing silly things.. maybe it prevents certain anger jobs? :confused: (Hope it was true with horny.. it will be quite usefull :horny)

Edit:Zyraen! your online! Pleas,can you feedback me on my Idol Priest treat at the suggestion section? Pleas? :D

Zyraen
July 3rd, 2011, 13:29
I did some tests using Must Obey, and I gauge its effectiveness by comparing it to Slap.

I can't really "feel" how much faster it trains, but it certainly does increase the Training Speed. From the movement Speed increase, its about 50% of a Slap effect. If we assume Slap is a 50% increase, then Must Obey probably gives a +25% effectiveness on all the creatures... that's just a guesstimate.

As a side note, Must Obey costs 25 gold per second or so.

Thoughts? OP or no?

Is its not really OP if your enemies are training up Training Value 3 Creatures and most of your units are Training Value 2? o.O

Its kinda mortifying seeing the Enemy Keeper drop Level 9-10 Barbarians (they get them from the start) and Level 7 Knights (they only get Knights after they research Barracks) when my Bile Demons are only Level 8.

Admittedly, their Training Value 2 Units - Giants, Wizards, Fairies - don't really catch up with your units. They are like level 4-5 only...

And yes, I do have Must Obey on...

Metal Gear Rex
July 3rd, 2011, 14:38
I did some tests using Must Obey, and I gauge its effectiveness by comparing it to Slap.

I can't really "feel" how much faster it trains, but it certainly does increase the Training Speed. From the movement Speed increase, its about 50% of a Slap effect. If we assume Slap is a 50% increase, then Must Obey probably gives a +25% effectiveness on all the creatures... that's just a guesstimate.

As a side note, Must Obey costs 25 gold per second or so.

Thoughts? OP or no?

Is its not really OP if your enemies are training up Training Value 3 Creatures and most of your units are Training Value 2? o.O

Its kinda mortifying seeing the Enemy Keeper drop Level 9-10 Barbarians (they get them from the start) and Level 7 Knights (they only get Knights after they research Barracks) when my Bile Demons are only Level 8.

Admittedly, their Training Value 2 Units - Giants, Wizards, Fairies - don't really catch up with your units. They are like level 4-5 only...

And yes, I do have Must Obey on...

I'd have to say it is quite overpowered in the original if those numbers are correct or at least close. It may not be as good of a boost compared to Speed Monster, but Speed Monster is overpowered as you know. Must Obey grants a constant boost of efficiancy for all Units and can be stacked with Speed Monster, (For Units who have the Speed Monster spell) for only 25 Gold per second. That sounds pretty cheap to me.

However, I can see you're more so asking if it is overpowered in your own tweaked campaign. That question is only answerable by you at the moment, considering you've done massive changes to all Units and also the Levels.

Zyraen
July 3rd, 2011, 17:11
It definitely sounds OP to me too for vanilla DK1.

For ROTK, it seems OK though. It could be OP if gained early on, but anyone who takes the risk to train less and research more is definitely doing something good there. And that spell might just become necessary to make a "Rush" against the AI even possible.. just the way I like it.

Zhuriel
July 4th, 2011, 02:50
What I'd say is my favorite strategy... Would be to have 8 level 10 Warlocks...
Fill the hand with them, drop them down... And watch them burst the damn enemies down, as soon as the enemies come close to them, pick the Warlocks up and drop them down further away and let them keep bursting... Just hate those Anti-Magic shields :c

Bloodletter
July 4th, 2011, 03:41
I enjoy using the poison gas and lightning traps, then dropping assorted minions there - like a Spider, Skeleton, Bile Demon, Warlock, Mistress..
Maybe even converted heroes if I have any but I rarely use the Horned Reaper unless such an occasion is required.

Dungeon_Master
August 5th, 2011, 03:08
I think my strategies may come off as exploits or cheating, but I just play the game my way (However I am getting the impression you guys are playing mutiplayer after reading all posts on this thread, I have only played on one player so I am not sure if I count).

I rather not always rush really, so I fortified my walls, making room for more as I go along hoping I don't accidentally stumble into an enemy just yet, if I don't then everything is fortified (Granted if my Imps are digging at a Gem or two), then I drop my creatures into the Training room and wait for all or almost all to reach lv10 (Since the Free to play maps I have now have alot of lv10's running around and Keepers who are more smarter then the ones in the original game (I downloaded it from here, since my disc will no longer work with Windows 7).

Now there are other things I use to my advantages. Such as the wall trick. I am not sure how many people know of this (But surely it's old news) but if your Imps dig through walls sometimes they don't dig through an entire wall, there's a small gap between walls that have not been fortified, I usually grab an Imp and run outside (Usually into water or lava, that's why I get him to dig a wall somewhere) while my other Imps fortified the walls, it locks the one Imp I possess out (But often I save him) it also locks any heroes out before they can reach me. So then I can explore much as I like digging out any walls without any harm to the Dungeon Heart. Of course it's an exploit since you can dig to the Keepers and lead the heroes there (But I usually wait a while, and it's usually when I have Destroy Walls. The Keepers of late have been destroying most Heroes, but then got destroyed by the remaining ones).

I also use Destroy walls if I can't find a corner wall as I call it to send a Imp out. I do happen to use Lava traps from time to time (I always forget about the Guard post). Guess that's the way I like it you know, while my creatures are training I can go do something. Have a shower, watch TV, go for a walk provided the game hasn't crashed.

I also use the Scavenger room as well much as I can to scavenge them. A fun trick is using a lava trap or something and then using a bridge to get to a hero area (Then selling most of it so they don't get to the Dungeon) is claiming the floors with conceal and then building a Prison close by, and then using a high level creature to pick off the heroes who wandered too far from their group.

I think Dragons are also useful, especially possessing them and spamming fire breath, provided he's got back up he can take levels higher then him, and level higher as well.


However a while ago I was mucking around, and along with making Imps level faster, I also made the :priestess: the most overpowered creature, well almost in the game. She trains faster, research and gets traps faster, she is also quite hard to beat. Also made it so she could come through the portal (You think the Mistress would be lonely without another woman around, especially if some were gay, I bet the straight love having the locks and such lol). Of course the downside of that, I made it possible for the Keepers to obtain her plus the Hero Priestess themselves, if I don't have a Priestess I am screwed if they do unless I come up with a plan, usually involves possessing a Dragon.

Now sometimes I do it without doing any of them, or even having a Priestess. Doing it the good way I tend to scout and try to see if I can get to any nearby Gems, if not then slowly dig out other gold until my creatures are high enough to go there and attack. I tend to use whatever creatures come through the portal though. Flies, Spiders, Beetles whatever comes stays and helps be my army (Unless I really want aleast one creature like a Mistress then I just keep dumping one in a portal until I do get it)

Metal Gear Rex
August 5th, 2011, 03:24
I think my strategies may come off as exploits or cheating, but I just play the game my way (However I am getting the impression you guys are playing mutiplayer after reading all posts on this thread, I have only played on one player so I am not sure if I count).

I rather not always rush really, so I fortified my walls, making room for more as I go along hoping I don't accidentally stumble into an enemy just yet, if I don't then everything is fortified (Granted if my Imps are digging at a Gem or two), then I drop my creatures into the Training room and wait for all or almost all to reach lv10 (Since the Free to play maps I have now have alot of lv10's running around and Keepers who are more smarter then the ones in the original game (I downloaded it from here, since my disc will no longer work with Windows 7).

Now there are other things I use to my advantages. Such as the wall trick. I am not sure how many people know of this (But surely it's old news) but if your Imps dig through walls sometimes they don't dig through an entire wall, there's a small gap between walls that have not been fortified, I usually grab an Imp and run outside (Usually into water or lava, that's why I get him to dig a wall somewhere) while my other Imps fortified the walls, it locks the one Imp I possess out (But often I save him) it also locks any heroes out before they can reach me. So then I can explore much as I like digging out any walls without any harm to the Dungeon Heart. Of course it's an exploit since you can dig to the Keepers and lead the heroes there (But I usually wait a while, and it's usually when I have Destroy Walls. The Keepers of late have been destroying most Heroes, but then got destroyed by the remaining ones).

I also use Destroy walls if I can't find a corner wall as I call it to send a Imp out. I do happen to use Lava traps from time to time (I always forget about the Guard post). Guess that's the way I like it you know, while my creatures are training I can go do something. Have a shower, watch TV, go for a walk provided the game hasn't crashed.

I also use the Scavenger room as well much as I can to scavenge them. A fun trick is using a lava trap or something and then using a bridge to get to a hero area (Then selling most of it so they don't get to the Dungeon) is claiming the floors with conceal and then building a Prison close by, and then using a high level creature to pick off the heroes who wandered too far from their group.

I think Dragons are also useful, especially possessing them and spamming fire breath, provided he's got back up he can take levels higher then him, and level higher as well.

I hate you. D:<









[/joking]
I not like this new mad icon :mad: D:<


You think the Mistress would be lonely without another woman around, especially if some were gay, I bet the straight love having the locks and such lol

Well she'd have other Dark Mistresses. Unless she was the only Dark Mistress in a dungeon full of 30 Creatures and was surrouneded by 29 Male Creatures all the time. Yeah I bet she'd have some fun with that.

But I actually don't think she'd really care. All the Dark Mistress is interested in is hurting herself. I'd imagine the Priestess would be the lonely one as the only other female she'd have to talk to is this crazy psychopath woman that keeps whipping herself in the Torture Chamber all day long.
And I'd imagine all the Creatures were either straight or genderless. I don't think the Dungeon Keeper universe went too far into those kinds of details, though it did go far into other kinds of details :troll: :orc:...

Dungeon_Master
August 5th, 2011, 04:47
MGR- A bit confused about the first part but alright lol. It's interesting in the beginning, like thirteen years ago when I was 10 I wasn't really that good at playing DK. I only ever got to uh level 16 I think (Where you get two Horned Reapers already, and magic doors that connect to the purple Keeper) and I never really knew how to get passed the other level where I had to hurry and make a dungeon. But as I got older I got wiser (Hey if the heroes don't want to give me time to build, then I will lock them out until I am ready ha ha) and I like to think for many levels of DK, fanmade or not I can do (Not all though, and bet if I was playing against a real person I might lose lol).


True true, actually sometimes I only have one Mistress, one female out of the entire dungeon XD. But yeah the Priestess would be more lonely, especially if as I said some were gay, although there is normally more then one unless I have Transfer. Well you never know, it's not like any of them actually gave an indication they liked anyone, and many of them like Bile Demons and Dragons were probably of both.

Not completely sure what you mean by the Orc lol, but I do recall a female Troll somewhere in the game. Unless you actually meant something else XD (Torture chamber? Because I think it's the troll or Orc that kinda looks like.. yeah lol).

Metal Gear Rex
August 5th, 2011, 05:11
MGR- A bit confused about the first part but alright lol.

I was joking. This thread is about DK1 strategies, exluding exploits. So, I'd imagine you'd get a lot of hate responses when you list how you abuse all these exploits. Well, there's your hate response :P


It's interesting in the beginning, like thirteen years ago when I was 10 I wasn't really that good at playing DK. I only ever got to uh level 16 I think (Where you get two Horned Reapers already, and magic doors that connect to the purple Keeper) and I never really knew how to get passed the other level where I had to hurry and make a dungeon. But as I got older I got wiser (Hey if the heroes don't want to give me time to build, then I will lock them out until I am ready ha ha) and I like to think for many levels of DK, fanmade or not I can do (Not all though, and bet if I was playing against a real person I might lose lol).

Actually, it looks like when you got older, you began realizing all these exploits you should have been abusing based on the strategies you listed in the previous post :P

I was able to beat DK1 when I was 11/12. I forgot when I got it exactly, but I didn't quite use too many tricks. While I did learn quite a few on my own, I didn't know about them all. I began using less and less exploits as I got older. I more so got into modding the game, actually. I was about 13 or 14 when I started playing around with the creature.txt file.


True true, actually sometimes I only have one Mistress, one female out of the entire dungeon XD. But yeah the Priestess would be more lonely, especially if as I said some were gay, although there is normally more then one unless I have Transfer. Well you never know, it's not like any of them actually gave an indication they liked anyone, and many of them like Bile Demons and Dragons were probably of both.

There's some official art of a Bile Demon with a Dark Mistress, so I'd imagine Bile Demons do like Dark Mistresses. As for the Dragon, well, they have kids. Either there's a woman waiting around their Lair at night or they're also genderless.


Not completely sure what you mean by the Orc lol, but I do recall a female Troll somewhere in the game. Unless you actually meant something else XD (Torture chamber? Because I think it's the troll or Orc that kinda looks like.. yeah lol).

Look at their sprites carefully in the lower part of them. Can you see anything dangling about as they walk due to their lack of proper clothing?

Dungeon_Master
August 5th, 2011, 05:24
Oh lol, hm guess you are aright, never had hate response though. Wonder though are you challenging me? I accept your challenge! (A cookie if you know the reference). I will try to do all levels including fanmade when I can without using a single one of those expoits (I might have to change the Priestess, but that's waaay too many, I just won't use her unelss last restort).

Oh I see, hm interesting loll. And I think I have actually, especially the lv10. I always just don't look XD

Zyraen
August 5th, 2011, 08:13
Hmm I think I beat DK1 when I was much older, like 16-18, but that was mainly because I was that ancient when it was released. I didn't like to use Transfer Creature and Exploits at all, not even Boulder Traps, although I found Vampire + Boulder Trap were much more effective against Enemy Keepers because of their tendency to just drop just about every creature onto one spot. Engage with 2-4 Vampires to gather everyone, with a door behind them and a Boulder Trap beyond. Pick up 2 Vampires, sell the Door, drop them BEHIND the Boulder, then pick up the last 2 as the Boulder does its beautiful work. And if you make a mistake, well the Vampire just needs to be retrained. Easy and Safe.

The original DK didn't really have enough Heroes per spawn to justify using a Boulder for most part, and it was easy enough to "separate" Heroes that I didn't generally use any Exploits against them.

Deeper Dungeons forced me into using the exploits more, but it was very satisfying since I think the levels were designed with the Exploits in mind. My effort with ROTK is to remove exploits and see how the challenge would be like.

Enker-Zan
August 6th, 2011, 20:52
1st time I beat Dungeon Keeper, I was 7 years old lol

DragonsLover
August 8th, 2011, 03:48
Deeper Dungeons forced me into using the exploits more, but it was very satisfying since I think the levels were designed with the Exploits in mind. My effort with ROTK is to remove exploits and see how the challenge would be like.

I mostly did the job with my unofficial patch, correcting the cases where you could solve the levels so easily.

Zyraen
August 8th, 2011, 05:26
I've been playing KFX all this while ^^;; so I'm sorry if I missed the patch, I'm using 0.39a or c I think.
But if I recall right, you can still use Boulder Trap in Korros Tor and Lava Trap in Kari-mar, so I'm not sure, am I missing something?
Where can it be downloaded?

ROTK's difficulty level is considerably higher than DK1, but mainly because (apart from exploits) their unit selection is now completely different from yours, so they can outnumber you, do automatic training, get hungry less and many other things without affecting your (limited) creaure pool. In other words, on top of numerical advantages, other unit-based advantages can be handed to the AI without giving you any advantage whatsoever.

That and some maps are altered to remove many advantages (free Horned Reaper etc) from your access.

DragonsLover
August 8th, 2011, 17:10
What's the exploit of using Boulders in Korros Tor? I know that you can leave heroes to kill both Keepers, both there, I couldn't really do something to counter that. I just made the fact that you also need to kill heroes to conquer the realm.

Lava traps have been removed in Kari-Mar though, same in maps where there are both heroes and a Keeper (excepted for Caddis Fell where I altered the Keeper Dungeon Heart to stop "attracting" heroes).

And for levels where you start with Destroy Walls (which is a huge mistake), I make sort that you acquire the Destroy Walls spell only once you destroy the hero dungeon so that you only use it for the enemy Keeper's dungeon in case he's walled in.