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aaronmaton
March 31st, 2012, 22:50
I`ve always have this question: "What the hell do the sight creature spell?".

And second one: "What is the purpose of the creature invisibility spell?" When I am in possesion mode and use that skill nothing happens, every enemy creature stll can attact me.

Greetings from Colombia!

Mothrayas
March 31st, 2012, 22:54
Sight: allows you to see invisible creatures

Invisibility: When you use invisibility, you can't use other moves (including another cast of invisibility, until it wears off by itself), or else the invisibility effect will disappear. Otherwise, it should work, making most creatures (except those with sight and undead creatures) unable to see or attack you.

Metal Gear Rex
March 31st, 2012, 23:41
Invisibility seems a bit buggy. If you have the Invisibility effect active, then attack and go visible, you can't go back invisible until the effect time of the previously cast Invisibility wears off. That varies depending on the Unit's Level, as it increases as the Unit Levels up.


Lv.1 Lv.2 Lv.3 Lv.4 Lv.5 Lv.6 Lv.7 Lv.8 Lv.9 Lv.10
Game Turns 300 400 500 600 700 800 900 1000 1100 300
Seconds 15 20 25 30 35 40 45 50 55 15

The decrease in effect time at Level 10 is the cause of a different glitch.


Otherwise, it should work, making most creatures (except those with sight and undead creatures) unable to see or attack you.

Except for Skeletons, as they lack the ability to see invisibility... for some reason. Guessing the developers must have forgotten it, kinda hard to believe they'd make that intentional.

aaronmaton
April 1st, 2012, 02:09
Ohh I see... Is the same bug that make lvl 10 speed creature spell last too short?

Thanks for the Info!

PS: Who are those creatures that can see throught invisibility?

Mothrayas
April 1st, 2012, 02:17
Ohh I see... Is the same bug that make lvl 10 speed creature spell last too short?

No, that's something completely different, although the end result is similar.


PS: Who are those creatures that can see throught invisibility?

Vampires and Ghosts can see invisible creatures by default. Some creatures which get Sight: Fly (level 5), Warlock (level 7), Samurai (level 5).

Archer
April 1st, 2012, 13:07
Vampires and Ghosts can see invisible creatures by default. Some creatures which get Sight: Fly (level 5), Warlock (level 7), Samurai (level 5).

Hell Hounds and Samurais can also see invisible creatures by default. A bit useless for the Samurai to got the Sight spell while already being able to see invisible creatures.

Metal Gear Rex
April 1st, 2012, 13:09
Hell Hounds and Samurais can also see invisible creatures by default. A bit useless for the Samurai to got the Sight spell while already being able to see invisible creatures.

That's obviously a mistake on the developers part.

DragonsLover
April 2nd, 2012, 23:31
...and which is now fixed. ;)

But Hell hounds don't see invisible creatures by default. This is a change I did because it's been known that dogs can feel the presence of ghosts. There's even a video game that uses this concept, I don't remember the name.

Archer
April 2nd, 2012, 23:33
it's been known that dogs can feel the presence of ghosts

True, Paranormal Activity 2 ;)

DragonsLover
April 2nd, 2012, 23:37
Please read carefully before posting too fast. It's been so many times you do the mistake. I talked about a VIDEO GAME, not a MOVIE.

Archer
April 3rd, 2012, 10:46
Please read carefully before posting too fast. It's been so many times you do the mistake. I talked about a VIDEO GAME, not a MOVIE.

So many times ? Read again what I'm saying about what I'm quoting in my last post.

Who said that was the name of the video game ? Who says I need to post the name of the video game ( even if I knew the name ) ? I quoted the part of dogs can feel the presence of ghosts, not the part of you referring to a video game. I was referring to a movie.

DragonsLover
April 4th, 2012, 01:22
Okay, I thought you were straight replying to my post even with the quote. My mistake then. Sorry for that.

VoidWeaver
June 12th, 2013, 14:28
I always noticed that:
When you use invisibility, you can't use other moves (including another cast of invisibility, until it wears off by itself), or else the invisibility effect will disappear.

So I want to ask - it's a bug or intentional spell specific? If it is a bug, is there a way to fix this?

Mothrayas
June 12th, 2013, 15:34
I always noticed that:

So I want to ask - it's a bug or intentional spell specific? If it is a bug, is there a way to fix this?

The spell wearing off by itself is not a bug. It's intentionally designed to do that.

If you mean about casting Invisibility while invisible making you visible, depending on you look at it, it could be considered a bug. However, it's easily avoided simply by not casting Invisibility when invisible.

VoidWeaver
June 12th, 2013, 15:42
If you mean about casting Invisibility while invisible making you visible, depending on you look at it, it could be considered a bug.
This one. I just underlined the wrong part of the sentence. Don't casting is obviously, but i asked about technical fixing. By editing some table datas for example or something else.

DragonsLover
June 17th, 2013, 13:19
This can be fixed easily.

VoidWeaver
June 17th, 2013, 13:40
If this
This can be fixed easily.statement does not include notes of sarcasm, I'd like to hear more concrete information.
For example, why is it no one has fix this previously or who is able to fix it. And as soon as we can expect it?

DragonsLover
June 17th, 2013, 21:11
No problem. You simply have to alter the "ForceVisibility" line of the Invisibility spell in the Creature.cfg file. By default, it is set to 1, just alter it to 0 and you're done. Everyone can do it, but I'm going to include it in the next release of my patch I'm working on.

VoidWeaver
June 19th, 2013, 04:49
"ForceVisibility" fix is work, thanks for thhat very helpful solution! Of course it can break a balance of some specific maps, but therefore it opens a new the mapmaking tactical possibility!
However Invisibility spell mechanic are confused me more now.

Let me explain by example.
After fix, you can recast Invisibility is absolutely safely, and teoretical you able stay in perma-hide status. BUT if you try to do some other action different from Invisibility, and THEN cast a new Invisibility - you are fail as result. I. e. you are stay visible for full Invisible duration period. Anybody can to explain for me this?

And possible or not a to do specific fix, which make access to full hit-and-hide Possession mod tactic? //Because setting "ForceVisibility" to 0 for other actions make any creature with Invisibility just are Unseeing Death. But in the other side, it make are cretures with a Sight spell or with true sight is a very useful minions.// And if so, how it can an influence on a game balance in not Possession mod?

Upd.
At last i re-found related to my questions thread A return on Conceal Spell (http://keeperklan.com/threads/2640-A-return-on-Conceal-spell). Maybe we should continue the discussion there?

DragonsLover
June 22nd, 2013, 03:33
After fix, you can recast Invisibility is absolutely safely, and teoretical you able stay in perma-hide status. BUT if you try to do some other action different from Invisibility, and THEN cast a new Invisibility - you are fail as result. I. e. you are stay visible for full Invisible duration period. Anybody can to explain for me this?

When you cast Invisibility then attack or use a spell, you become visible back. You must wait for the Invisibility spell to reload first and having its duration to end. Don't forget that, even though the Invisibility spell has finished loading, its duration may not be over. Wait for the Invisibility spell icon to become bright back then cast it again. You should then now be invisible. The same thing applies with the Fly spell.

I did what you do first and wanted to make Invisibility spell to have its usefulness, but some works have to be done in order for that spell to work properly. So far, it's mostly a stealth spell, useful on imps and first person usage.

VoidWeaver
June 22nd, 2013, 04:33
Well, lets to continue is here.


When you cast Invisibility then attack or use a spell, you become visible back. Don't forget that, even though the Invisibility spell has finished loading, its duration may not be over. Wait for the Invisibility spell icon to become bright back then cast it again. You should then now be invisible. The same thing applies with the Fly spell.Ok, i am understood that system is very long time ago and i agreed with it.



You must wait for the Invisibility spell to reload first and having its duration to end.And iam understand that part too, but why?... uhm, i... not agreed with it. And yes, i know about that - "Conceal is a Stealth related ability" oriented on Possession mode primaly, but... why? It is a small but vile condition breaks the whole interesting battle concept. So, the main question, is it possible to bypass this without changing the "ForceVisibility" of other actions?

Personally, now I see only the following possible scenarios:

1. Set "ForceVisibility" to 0 for all actions.
Pros - strong changes, wich are open a new battle concept and allow to realize a full power of Conceal in all mods (possession\on map).
Cons - most probably, needs full remake for ALL campaigns and maps. This spell will be almost as a cheat in the Possession mode.

2. Set "ForceVisibility" to 0 only for Invisibility spell.
Pros - small changes that will provide some variety in the gameplay and will affect Possession mode especially.
Cons - Conceal is not realize it's full potential and probably some rebalancing must be needed.

3. Allow creatures to cast Invisibility spell in combat.
Pros - small changes that will provide minimal variety in the gameplay and will not affect the Possession mode.
Cons - Conceal is not realize it's full potential.

4. Don't change anything and stay all as is.
Pros - not changes - don't rebalancing necessary.
Cons - Conceal a stay is a very lame spell.

I am also find some ideas are very interesting and combinative with the others, frex:
You should keep the lose invisibility on attacking. Give it a short duration and short cooldown.
It could be used defensively. Creatures with low health will cast it, flee and will no longer be attacked because they are invisible. If possible it could even be used by ranged fighters to get out of range of close combat fighters, or close combat fighters to snuggle up to ranged fighters.
'Remove being primary target' works as well: Creatures with High DPS, low defense will cast it - enemy creatures focus Low DPS, High Defense creature - invisible creature attacks and becomes visible - enemy creatures keep focusing on High Defense creature until it's destroyed.
If it's the only creature it has little use, it could flee, or it would simply be targeted again once it attacked.
and this one:
I'm confident you'll find a suitable use for it, all I wanna add is that if Conceal becomes useful, Alarm Traps could also gain some usefulness by revealing the triggering creature if it's invisible. Would make two underused things not quite as pathetic.
That said I wouldn't mind Thief and Ghost getting the innate ability to not be revealed when attacking as well. (I've always given Thieves Conceal at level 2 as they're just a waste of a hero unit space apart from when you convert and train them)

What are you think about all that? Any suggestions?

DragonsLover
June 22nd, 2013, 22:32
And iam understand that part too, but why?... uhm, i... not agreed with it. And yes, i know about that - "Conceal is a Stealth related ability" oriented on Possession mode primaly, but... why? It is a small but vile condition breaks the whole interesting battle concept. So, the main question, is it possible to bypass this without changing the "ForceVisibility" of other actions?

Again, it's possible to make the spell to reactivate at the exact time it stops reloading, but keep in mind that it varies from a creature level to another. You can make the spell's reloading time to be the same of the its duration. Just play with the values in both "creature.cfg" and "magic.cfg" files. As for why it is a stealth related ability, well, it is like that actually. You can make creatures to remain invisible, whatever they do, but this can results in overpowered situations with creatures being able to attack enemies without being attacked back. In fact, actually, the way the game works, when an invisible and an enemy visible creatures meet together, battle is engaged between those two creatures, but since the visible creature cannot spot the invisible one, the battle cancels, resulting with another engaging battle immediately after between those two same creatures which is immediately cancelled again, and so on in a constant loop. What I once suggested would be for the attacked visible creature to flee instead of cancelling the battle, but if there would have more creatures, each of them would flee one after the other if they cannot spot the invisible one unless a creature can spot the invisible one or the spell takes end.

About the ideas, the first one by YourMaster can be done. I'm not sure if it would work properly for ranged fighters though. :warlock: are already that way and it would make them extremely powerful if they can pummel enemy creatures with :meteor: without being seen. As fpr Trotim idea, it surely can be done with a bit of coding, but how would you make it to work? If a bunch of invisible minions cross the alarm trap, would it affect only the creature triggering it or the whole bunch?

Something problematic would be for the first person usage. It would become overpowered for a possessed invisible minion to reach the enemy heart and destroy it without being seen at all, causing levels to be easily and pathetically done, unless you make first person attacks to cause the creature to be visible back, but that would be pointless because once you reach the enemy heart, you would simply have to cancel possession.

So, as you can see, it's not as easy as it may seem. Something has to be done, true, but without breaking the balance.

mefistotelis
May 6th, 2014, 00:38
I just changed how ForceVisibility works in KeeperFX, to what I think was original intention of the authors:

ForceVisibility is now amount of game turns during which the creature is visible after using an instance.

This means creature can now be visible for a few seconds after hitting an enemy; as long as it won't continue fighting, it will become invisible again.

YourMaster
May 6th, 2014, 21:24
Great!
This can have some huge changes to gameplay,... also see this topic (http://keeperklan.com/threads/2640-A-return-on-Conceal-spell) about the conceal spell,...

It used to be completely useless, but now may be useful again. Warlocks with invisibility for example may now cast the occasional spell against strong opponents, flee, turn invisible and lose their fear and attack again. I wonder how long the different spells will force visibility.