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ARMofORION
August 17th, 2012, 23:36
Which, in your opinion, would be a better force to have?

Metal Gear Rex
August 18th, 2012, 01:55
Which, in your opinion, would be a better force to have?

Heroes easily. There's really no argument. Heroes are generally overall better than Creatures, with very few exceptions. I'm generally speaking from a Mercenary VS Creature stand point as that's really the only time you can normally attract Heroes. Going into detail...


Dwarf > Imp
If only slightly. Ironically, the workers probably have the most diversity compared to any other unit comparison without one being totally better than the other. Imps are obviously much faster and therefore better for general dungeon maintenance, but the Dwarf possesses enough fighting ability to help out as minor support, almost acting like the Heroes' Skeleton. Plus they can tear through reinforced walls like nothing. They may be more durable but they lack the ability of auto-healing. In large numbers after gaining experience from working, Dwarves can actually be quite threatening alongside other Heroes. That's probably their biggest advantage point.


Knight = Black Knight
No comparison really, they're the same Unit.


Thief < Rogue
The Rogue deals more damage and has slightly more Health than the Thief. All the Thief has is a faster cool down for Invisibility, which is useless as the spell effect time is still at least double the cool down time. (Plus it's still a difference of only 2.5 seconds)


Guard > Goblin/Salamander
The Guard outclasses both the Goblin and Salamander as a basic fighter. The Guard has double their Health and double the Salamander's Attack (200, compared to the Goblin's 170) while having less than double the Salamander's recharge time for Melee, overall leading to higher damage output.

The Salamander actually loses some points for having ranged abilities as they suck, (In fact, his in particular suck) only resulting in keeping him away from Melee and preventing him from dealing real damage. Especially at higher levels when he keeps fighting at range due to having three ranged spells and one of them constantly recharging. Lava access isn't too much of a perk unless the Stone Bridge is unavailable.


Wizard/Monk > Warlock
The Wizard's researching ability is double the Warlock's, granting access to advanced spells early on and offering a huge plus. The Warlock may have Heal but it's not as useful due to his long animation delaying the spell, which may often result in him casting it only after the Creature dies. As a healer, the Monk also and obviously outclasses the Warlock due to a stronger Heal, shorter casting animation, and numerous other abilities.


Giant > Troll/Bile Demon
The Bile Demon has more Health than the Giant, but he's cursed with a longer recovery time from stun, including a longer recovery animation. This pretty much kills the point of his Health and him generally being a tank. They deal equal damage overall though. Lava access does help give the Giant an advantage as well.

In the dungeon, the Giant further outclasses the Bile Demon by being literally 3x as good in the Workshop. He's also easier to manage, being a faster moving Creature and thus not having as much of a problem with getting to the Hatchery and back to the Workshop before getting hungry again.

The Troll is left completely out of the picture due to a lack of fighting ability and barely an advantage over the Bile Demon in the Workshop. (He has 60 for a Manufacturing Value compared to the Bile's 50, the main advantage is simply the Bile Demon's disadvantage of being slow moving and often hungry)


Elven Archer > Dark Elf
This one is pretty interesting. In general, the Elven Archer's basic arrow outclasses the Dark Elf's as it, despite lower damage, has a much lower cool down. It leads to an average of 112.5 DPS compared to 60 DPS. When comparing their Guided Bolts, the Dark Elf's is more of an upgrade to her standard attack due to it having a shorter recharge time. The Elven Archer's is more of an extra support ability as it deals less damage for a longer recharge time. Though they obtain them at different levels and thus makes it harder to judge properly. The Elven Archer's Grenade outdoes the Dark Elf's Knives significantly due to it having an AoE along with significant damage. It's actually better for countering enemy ranged Creatures due to the distance it travels before exploding. Again, different levels.

In short, the Elven Archer is better early and late level compared to the Dark Elf who is slightly better/about equal mid level.


Dark Mistress > Fairy > Firefly
Another counterpart pairing that has variety, though I would still say not as much as the workers. Interestingly, this one is also a pretty close match. The Dark Mistress clearly outclasses the Fairy in standard Melee combat, though the Fairy has the advantage of a better Lightning spell. The Fairy's Lightning deals double damage and has nearly half the Mistress' recharge time. Plus she can research and doubles as a scout and doesn't have the annoying Torture Chamber problem.

The Fairy loses points for later spells being not as good. While Hailstorm is admittedly not too useful, neither is Protect as far as I know. The Dark Mistress' Freeze clearly outclasses the Fairy's Wind, but mainly due to the fact that the Fairy's Wind also effects allies. The main thing that brings the Fairy down and what makes the Dark Mistress better is her attraction, at least with Mercenary Portals. It's a Temple, costing 75000 Gold for just 2 Fairies when 13500 Gold can get up to 4 Mistresses.

The Firefly is only being compared to the Fairy due to both their roles as scouts. The Firefly does have the advantage of being early game and thus makes a better scout, but obviously looking at overall ability causes the Fairy takes the cake.


Royal Guard > Dark Angel
This one is pretty interesting. The Royal Guard has much more Health, Health (and damage) that exceeds both the Knights, but the Dark Angel has much more Attack Power. They have about the same recharge time as well. Overall, they kill each other in exactly 6 hits, with the Dark Angel having some minor left over damage (40) compared to the Royal Guard doing exactly enough damage to kill the Dark Angel. With this, they'd be about equal.

However, things mix up a bit when bringing Spells in consideration. Despite being the second most damaging spell in the game, Disruption pretty much sucks as it's weaker than the Dark Angel's Attack Power at Level 2 while having ~9x as long of a recharge time. Hailstorm and Skeletons aren't much better. All they really do is delay when the Dark Angel enters battle to do the real damage, similar but not as problematic as the Salamander. Research isn't really an advantage as the Dark Angel is late game and better off spending his time in the Training Room, due to having a Research value even lower than the Warlock's.

The Dark Angel loses again due to attraction requirements, oddly having the opposite attraction comparison to the Fairy and Dark Mistress.


Vampire
The Vampire is easily the strongest Creature on the Creature side due to his high attack power, reincarnation, and the fact that he doesn't count against the Creature limit aznd is therefore easily spammable. Plus he has the advantage of spells, with Slow and Drain being very effective. Despite this, he's ironically better on the Hero Side compared to the Creature Side. The reason? The Creature Side must deal with the Monk who counters the Vampire's resurrection.

ARMofORION
August 18th, 2012, 01:58
Interesting......

Hapuga
August 18th, 2012, 07:14
MGR, I don't know how u were calculating the damage, but keep in mind that the actual game DPS is solely based on the animation speed, and not on the weapon/recharge rate of spells. That speed only affects the 1st person gameplay. I was really disappointed when I gave elves 0.1 recharge rate hoping to see a walking machine gun, but they were still shooting as usually.

Metal Gear Rex
August 18th, 2012, 07:21
MGR, I don't know how u were calculating the damage, but keep in mind that the actual game DPS is solely based on the animation speed, and not on the weapon/recharge rate of spells. That speed only affects the 1st person gameplay. I was really disappointed when I gave elves 0.1 recharge rate hoping to see a walking machine gun, but they were still shooting as usually.

Well I'm familiar with the animation speeds being important but I haven't played in a while so I'm working from memory about those. I generally relied on the recharge time of Melee and Ranged Attacks to judge them but I still tried to recall the various animation speeds. I do recall the range of attacks only effecting non-possessed Units though.

You can still create your walking machine gun by disabling the animation I think, though I suppose that's not as fun.

HerselfTheElf
September 14th, 2012, 03:01
I realize I'm semi-necroing here but I find most of your comparisons flawed. For instance: Giants are the Hero version of the Salamander. Plus Salamanders are actually quite good.
The thing is, Salamanders gain uber fast exp, and their range is really good because you can make em sit in the lava and rush your opponent while hitting his creatures and imps. The massive problem with Salamanders is fear, but having them sit in the lava and getting masses of them at level 4 quite easily means they can take on the enemy when he is busy throwing his DK's in the combat pit. This is also why the goblin rush tends to work quite alot if the enemy doesn't wall up quickly (No time to research tremor). By the time you were done you had probably more creatures then anyone (due to converting) and even if you couldn't convert due to lack of gold or imp access you still had a bunch of high level salamanders because they can get level 9/10 quite easily in combat. Level 9/10 In DK2 as I remember actually like doubled the stats. Level 10 Salamanders would rip through level 8 DK's with no problem.

So for me it's:
Salamander > Giant: Giant's are stronger, but they're too slow. Dump them on the floor and they lie down far too long. I don't recall them gaining fast exp. The biggest problem was no mercenary portals on any all lava maps. Even then, they're too slow to be of use and Royal Guards outclass them in every way. The lack of range means they have very little use for lava immunity. You're saving a few bucks on a bridge, big deal. You spent that on the damn workshop in the first place, most mercenary maps have no use for a workshop.

Rogue > Thief: Thief has a minor advantage at getting up quicker from stun. This means he can get invisibility off faster in a pinch. His damage, however is so horrible that it isn't enough. I never recall having used Rogue's successfully, though. Invisibility was so OP and awesome, but I never remember rolling over the enemy. Perhaps I did something wrong. Still, Rogue's are easily the best.

Black Knight > Knight: Knights fight like idiots. Who the hell picked these morons to put in expensive plate and fight the powerful evil underworld? They're also chickens, I'm not sure if the fear values were different but Black Knight's definately seemed way more fearless. I hate Knights. They're the epitome of useless elitists. Walking all proud in their shiny expensive armor yet having nothing to show for it. DK1 Knights were the ones truly worthy of the holier then thou attitude. I won nearly every mercenary game because everyone used Knights. So I guess they did help me gain some much needed gamer-ego.

Dark Mistress > Fairy: Technically the right opposite, although Fairy's more closely resemble the Dark Angel in actual attraction. Mistresses are much better because their room requirement is pretty much a must build anyway. Fairy's have a stupidly insane requirement to gain them, but mostly because after using lightning they will run (Fly?) straight into the melee and promptly die because they have like no HP. I suppose you could drop them then pick them up again (they do recover quickly from being dropped) but the Dark Mistresses do that much better despite having crappy lightning. Dark Mistresses are actually decent fighters, Fairy's are a waste of a creature because eventually you are going to be pressured in letting your creatures stay and fight for whatever reason. 5 Mistresses can act as semi support by dropping them behind your DK's and letting them zap the enemy so they die in an instant when stunned (sometimes the player manages to pick em up in time but a single drop of 5 mistresses is often going to one shot a random DK). Lightning/Hail at level 8 is another reason Mistresses own. When you use lightning, and then Hail, all creatures that were stunned will stay stunned for a very long time. Fairy's don't seem to do this as well as mistresses do.

Vampire > Monk: Okay, if you think that Vampires are actually the best creature you are going to have to explain it to me, because my only stamp is "useless". Same for the Monk by the way, nobody uses Vampires and that makes the Monk useless by association. Graveyards are stupidly expensive, Vampire's that die in the Combat Pit lose a level. Converting is the way to go in all cases in DK2 because of Vampires and Skeletons spawning at Level 1 and dying in the combat pit instantly. For a level 8 corpse, you SHOULD get a level 8 Vampire. What would you rather have? 1/2 of a level 1 Vampire or a level 8 DK? It's such an easy decision. I'd even rather have a level 8 Goblin, to be honest. On actual "Level 8 Fighting Strength" Vampire's are very good (Drain is the only spell that gains strength with levelling up! It does like 1/4th of the Vampire's HP as damage), but the way to get them means they are useless in all situations except when going for the "Fancy" way to beat the main campaign. I realize that sometimes you're not going to be quick enough and you'll have a bunch of dead guys, but I still think that building a graveyard then is a waste of gold. The microing required to get a Vampire above level 4 is only going to make you lose rather then win.

Dark Elves < Elven Archers: Dark Elves are horrible. Elven Archers are less horrible.

Bile Demon < Giant: Giant beats the Bile Demon because of lava immunity. The Bile Demon is certifiably useless, I could consider Giants to have a use in some obscure lava walking way. Yea I listed Giant twice. I suppose a Giant is a mix of the uselessness of the Bile Demon with a pinch of Salamander. Atleast Giants are good conversion material in the campaign...

Dark Angel < Royal Guard: Dark Angels are barely on par with DK's. They gain EXP a tad faster, and you'll get a free 1-2 with Zacharia ANYWAY (Zach is so powerful that he's worth building the 5x5 temple even without temple abuse). Royal Guards, however, are worth building the training room. They are so strong, and so easy to get in masses that they are the best creature in the entire game. The only 1 better then Dark Knights. Dark Angels can get to level 10 and then they do become very strong due to their attack gaining a massive boost (They can kill level 8s so fast then that they actually do much better then a level 10 DK or RG would). In general, however, DA's are just not that good because before level 10 not dying is a much bigger priority. Healing DA's in time is just hard and as such you could almost think about throwing the token DA out for a DK. Almost. Their spells help them to enter the melee later, and this is actually what saves them so they can do their massive damage without being initially targetted by 3 different creatures.

Warlock < Wizard: PIIIIIIIIIIIIIiiiiiiiiiiii. God I love wizards. I've used them and Wizards are the only useful support class. You need them for research, and holding onto 5 of em and letting them level to 8 turns them into surprisingly good damage dealers. The AOE effect on their fireballs means they will simply rip through closely packed enemies, and this is pretty much the only way online fights go. Once I had like 5 wizards and a bunch of Royals running into an enemy dungeon, he dropped his Knights a bit further away and the Royals couldn't reach them in time, the wizards went PIIIIIIIIIIiiii and most of the knights lost like half their health. I don't recall wizards damaging my own guys severely, but 5 wizards definately felt like an extra edge so that's what I'm basing it on. Warlocks are horrible. Actually scratch horrible (And also scratch that on the Archer's mentioned). Useless is actually the correct word.


Imp < Dwarf: At first I said Imps were better. But the thing is...Dwarves have a massive advantage of pimp slapping enemy imps outta there, so a few Dwarves as conversion or neutral finds are awesome and as such Dwarves are very valuable (much more so then imps which you can create with a bit of mana). This is the reason I consider Dwarves better. They don't have a massive expensive requirement, but the only way to gain them is temple abuse. Temple abuse is bad, hmmmkay? Even if temple abuse is allowed, I would use it to get masses of Knights and Wizards and only a few dwarves if the map is the kind where I will be fighting for land. But then the enemy is likely to have dwarves himself and...well...
Still a bunch of dwarves can hack through the enemy dungeon in no time, they're awesome. No tremor required.

Goblin > Guard: Heh, it's the only 2 left, and they both start with G! Goblins are better. They have a use. Guards are annoying guys which join you when you want to get RG's instead. Goblins are good for rushing, Guards are good for nothing. Well, conversion, but everything is good for conversion. Although the choice between level 1 guard and level 1 Skeleton still goes the direction of the Skeleton because of immediate use most of the time. Oh crap, Skeletons were also left. They suck so who cares.

Metal Gear Rex
September 14th, 2012, 09:41
I realize I'm semi-necroing here

It's only been a month and you've plenty of content to post so I don't see a problem with it. Trust me, I've seen worse. Dear god I've seen worse.


but I find most of your comparisons flawed. For instance: Giants are the Hero version of the Salamander. Plus Salamanders are actually quite good.

...I'm sorry, what was that? Are you challenging me? Do you want to know what happened to the last person who challenged me? This (http://i656.photobucket.com/albums/uu284/DarkFire4114/scr00047.png).

Anyways, on a more serious note, there are a few flaws here and there but none of which are ones you noticed it seems. Some were just things I forgot to take in consideration but I didn't really care to update because this is the original DKII and I do not like the original DKII. Other things were because of stuff I learned about the game as I did some extensive testing for my balance patch.


The thing is, Salamanders gain uber fast exp, and their range is really good because you can make em sit in the lava and rush your opponent while hitting his creatures and imps. The massive problem with Salamanders is fear, but having them sit in the lava and getting masses of them at level 4 quite easily means they can take on the enemy when he is busy throwing his DK's in the combat pit. This is also why the goblin rush tends to work quite alot if the enemy doesn't wall up quickly (No time to research tremor). By the time you were done you had probably more creatures then anyone (due to converting) and even if you couldn't convert due to lack of gold or imp access you still had a bunch of high level salamanders because they can get level 9/10 quite easily in combat. Level 9/10 In DK2 as I remember actually like doubled the stats. Level 10 Salamanders would rip through level 8 DK's with no problem.

What do you mean having them sit in the lava to attack with range? The Salamander is one of the best examples about why ranged abilities suck in this game. Salamander Spit deals 150 damage and has a recharge time of 5. At Level 1, the Salamander deals 200 damage. At Level 4, when he gets Spit, he deals 350 damage, more than double. His Salamander Fireball is even worse, if that's possible. On top of only dealing 225 damage, noticeably less compared to the 300 damage that Wizard/Warlock Fireballs deal, he gets it at Level 8 when he's dealing 600 damage per hit. Nearly triple. (Note that his Level 8 Spell is weaker than the W/W's Level 1 Spell)

Really, all the Salamander's spells do is keep him away from Melee to do the real damage. They're worthless, and their 5 second recharge time keeps him from getting up close once he hits Level 8 and has to cast them both. They pretty much make him almost less useful than a Goblin.

Also, Goblin/Salamander rushing does not work against the Black Knight spam. They have 1500 Health each and deal 170/200 damage respectfully at base level. The Black Knight has 4000 Health and deals 400 damage at base level. They have to reach Level 5 first if they want even a chance to stand against the Black Knight at base level, which is highly unlikely to occur. And even then, they only have 3000 Health and 340/400 damage. They may have shorter attack speeds, but as Hapuga mentioned, animations do count. I've found out that it takes about 2 whole seconds for the Goblin to finish up his longer attack animation, which pretty much eliminates any attack speed advantage he would have over the Black Knight. Same goes for the Salamander, though he's slightly better off. (If you can get over his range problem)

As for a Level 10 Salamander defeating a Level 8 Black Knight, I find that hard to believe. If they survive long enough to reach that level, they still will have 9000 Health and 1200 damage versus 12000 Health and 1200 damage. It's possible for them to win but for you to say "rip through level 8 DK's with no problem", I must respond by saying that you heavily exaggerate. And again, survive long enough to reach that level. The Level 9 and 10 boosts are extremely high, but to do that means facing real combat (which in this example would be facing a Black Knight) at Level 8 or so when the Black Knight is maybe Level 4 at worse. Level 8 Salamanders have 4500 HP/600 damage compared to L4 BK's 7000 HP/700 damage. I would say they're far outclassed.


Salamander > Giant: Giant's are stronger, but they're too slow. Dump them on the floor and they lie down far too long. I don't recall them gaining fast exp. The biggest problem was no mercenary portals on any all lava maps. Even then, they're too slow to be of use and Royal Guards outclass them in every way. The lack of range means they have very little use for lava immunity. You're saving a few bucks on a bridge, big deal. You spent that on the damn workshop in the first place, most mercenary maps have no use for a workshop.

Giants can be compared to Salamanders for being lava crossers, yes, but they're very different units which is what prevents them from being comparable. Giants are heavy hitters, like Bile Demons and also function a bit like tanks, also like Bile Demons. They are one of the three manufacturers in the entire game (4 including the Stone Knight and 6 including the Guard and Fairy who both have manufacturing points but have Manufacture set as their Hate Job, which is why they refuse to manufacture) and being the best manufacturer on the Hero Side, (not like they have any competition) they naturally compete with Trolls who are the best manufacturers on the creature side. Salamanders are faster creatures who are solely fighters and also serve as partial (and crappy) support units. They're very different.

Anyways, Giants are still much better than Salamanders. Their damage output may actually and surprisingly be lower, Salamanders still run into the problem of their animation speed stretching out their recharge time for melee attacks which makes them more equal. Even without, Giants have 4000 Health which allows them to outclass Salamanders easily and are also able to manufacture better than anyone else in the game. They have exactly 2.5x the manufacture rate of a Troll. Plus they don't have as much of a problem with Fear. (Salamander has 113 Fear and the Giant has 400 Fear at base level)

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that Mercenary Maps have no use for a Workshop. Of course they do, Workshops allow for building of a properly defended dungeon. There's a lot of overpowered traps and trap combinations that can easily turn the tide of battle when fighting defensively and the Giant gets to tap into that as apart of his usefulness, being the only obtainable Hero who can manufacture.

Also, your argument that Giants are outclassed by Royal Guards is invalid, simply because, aside from being untrue as Giants can manufacture, Salamanders are also outclassed by Black Knights as described above.


Rogue > Thief: Thief has a minor advantage at getting up quicker from stun. This means he can get invisibility off faster in a pinch. His damage, however is so horrible that it isn't enough. I never recall having used Rogue's successfully, though. Invisibility was so OP and awesome, but I never remember rolling over the enemy. Perhaps I did something wrong. Still, Rogue's are easily the best.

As I already stated, the Rogue is better than the Thief due to the Thief's lower damage output. Invisibility is an overpowered spell, but its power is only artificial. Against a real human player, they can easily counter the Rogue's invisibility. Possession and Turncoat are two possibilities that come to mind.


Black Knight > Knight: Knights fight like idiots. Who the hell picked these morons to put in expensive plate and fight the powerful evil underworld? They're also chickens, I'm not sure if the fear values were different but Black Knight's definately seemed way more fearless. I hate Knights. They're the epitome of useless elitists. Walking all proud in their shiny expensive armor yet having nothing to show for it. DK1 Knights were the ones truly worthy of the holier then thou attitude. I won nearly every mercenary game because everyone used Knights. So I guess they did help me gain some much needed gamer-ego.

This is one of the things I made a mistake on, but I'll get to that in a second. First off, your argument on the Knight being lesser than the Black Knight is completely irrelevant. We're talking about gameplay related performance, statistical information, etc. Also, I'm going to assume by your ending statement that your "challengers" weren't very impressive players. If they lost this badly with Knights versus Salamanders and the like then they couldn't have been that good. But if they lost with Knights against Royal Guards, then that's a different story.

Anyways, Black Knights are actually proven to be better than Knights despite all of their similarities, and for the dumbest reason. Animation Speed. Out of the two attack animations they have, one of them is equally shared but the other differs significantly. The Black Knight's second animation is much shorter while the Knight's is long enough to stretch out his recharge time. This allows the BK to attack more frequently and thus defeat the Knight practically every time.

That aside, they're identical twins in almost every way. I actually went through more of their stats to see if I could identify any more differences, though I didn't expect to find anything. Aside from the obvious change of being set to Good or Evil, the Knight being set to a MPD Random Invader, and the already mentioned attack animations, I identified a total of 4 differences. To add insult to injury, the differences are very subtle.


BK K
Annoyance No Food: 100 150
Annoyance No Work: 50 60
Torture Health Change: -15 -17
Unhappy Job: 10% Sulk 100% Drink
90% Drink

And that's it. Other than those, they're exactly the same statistically.


Dark Mistress > Fairy: Technically the right opposite, although Fairy's more closely resemble the Dark Angel in actual attraction. Mistresses are much better because their room requirement is pretty much a must build anyway. Fairy's have a stupidly insane requirement to gain them, but mostly because after using lightning they will run (Fly?) straight into the melee and promptly die because they have like no HP. I suppose you could drop them then pick them up again (they do recover quickly from being dropped) but the Dark Mistresses do that much better despite having crappy lightning. Dark Mistresses are actually decent fighters, Fairy's are a waste of a creature because eventually you are going to be pressured in letting your creatures stay and fight for whatever reason. 5 Mistresses can act as semi support by dropping them behind your DK's and letting them zap the enemy so they die in an instant when stunned (sometimes the player manages to pick em up in time but a single drop of 5 mistresses is often going to one shot a random DK). Lightning/Hail at level 8 is another reason Mistresses own. When you use lightning, and then Hail, all creatures that were stunned will stay stunned for a very long time. Fairy's don't seem to do this as well as mistresses do.

As far as combat goes, I'll just bluntly use one of your later arguments/supporting details for the Dark Angel against you. The Fairy's Lightning and spell casting keeps her away from melee long enough for everyone else to get engaged and thus she won't have as much of a problem with getting targeted and killed. Also, as what you said about using the Dark Mistresses as semi-support to drop them behind tanks and use Lightning, Fairies can do that as well and much better even, as previously explained.

Also, the thing about Hailstorm is a lie. I just tested that, it doesn't work at all. Even if it did, the stun will only keep them down for that long. Stun time increase from getting hits is based on a percentage of the remaining stun time, and it will never exceed the max stun time. The max stun time is actually the same as the initial stun time. Additionally, you can just instantly cure stun time by casting Heal. In fact, Hailstorm is pretty much useless. It deals 320 damage at max potential, which is really low. But also, it's bugged. Once you step out of its damage radius, it will no longer affect you even if you step back in.

Furthermore, I actually made a mistake. As it's been a while and I've been looking at my patch mainly rather than the original game, so I forgot that Hailstorm was gained at Level 10, not 8. I assumed it was 8 because Freeze was obviously more powerful and thus should be gained at a later level, but I guess I gave DKII too much credit. This means that the spell is even more useless considering how late it's obtained. It also makes me wonder about you as well as you also assumed it was Level 8, making the same mistake but without the same reason.

Anyways, Dark Mistresses at Level 8 are still overpowered due to them having Freeze with its effect time being 2/3s of its recharge time. The main way to counter that that comes to mind is to either fight defensively to counter with traps, or to exploit the idiot AI by sending one creature first (maybe an Imp) and allow them to all waste their spells before charging at them. They'll move to Melee range and won't be able to cast the spells anymore.


Vampire > Monk: Okay, if you think that Vampires are actually the best creature you are going to have to explain it to me, because my only stamp is "useless". Same for the Monk by the way, nobody uses Vampires and that makes the Monk useless by association. Graveyards are stupidly expensive, Vampire's that die in the Combat Pit lose a level. Converting is the way to go in all cases in DK2 because of Vampires and Skeletons spawning at Level 1 and dying in the combat pit instantly. For a level 8 corpse, you SHOULD get a level 8 Vampire. What would you rather have? 1/2 of a level 1 Vampire or a level 8 DK? It's such an easy decision. I'd even rather have a level 8 Goblin, to be honest. On actual "Level 8 Fighting Strength" Vampire's are very good (Drain is the only spell that gains strength with levelling up! It does like 1/4th of the Vampire's HP as damage), but the way to get them means they are useless in all situations except when going for the "Fancy" way to beat the main campaign. I realize that sometimes you're not going to be quick enough and you'll have a bunch of dead guys, but I still think that building a graveyard then is a waste of gold. The microing required to get a Vampire above level 4 is only going to make you lose rather then win.

:/

I'm now more than certain that the people you faced aren't very impressive. Vampires are easily exploitable because they don't count against the Portal Limit. Training them in the Pit is not a problem as Heal is overpowered, and also usually the best method to go about training creatures anyways. Their Health is decent but resurrection more than makes up for that factor. Plus when going aggressively with Vampires, you don't have to worry about enemies capturing and converting them. Also, their damage is one of their main selling points. 666 damage (lol, DKII traded balance to make a joke) outdoes the Black Knight and almost reaches up to the Dark Angel's 840.

Also, no offense but you're acting a bit single-minded with you compare a Level 1 Vampire to a Level 8 BK. OF COURSE you go with the Level 8 BK. But it takes Levels 1-7 to get to 8, and there's more than one species than the BK. There's also the Salamanders that you seem to be fond of using. Furthermore, since we're not talking about a contest of skill but simply and purely winning, there's two notable exploits with creating a Vampire. Either A) you can build a 3x3 prison and slap Goblins/Flies to death, thus instantly creating a dead body to serve as food for the Vampire. Or B) You build a Combat Pit and a 3x3 Temple then drop Black Knights in there to get a Vampire. The latter is overall more effective, though more expensive. Plus with Vampires not counting against the Portal, the Vampires won't slow down the attraction speed.

As for the Monk, I'm quite surprised. Vampire killing isn't their only use. You should know from the campaign how effective they can be, and a fine example is Level 14 when you face an early invasion with 2 Monks and a lack of resources to push them off. I recall how after dropping the Giant's health down, they would cast Heal on the giant, then I would drop his health back down, and they would cast Heal on the giant, and I would drop his health back down, and they would cast Heal on the Giant, and I'd say "Screw it" and cast Turncoat on the Giant.

The Monk's Heal is quite impressive. It restores 4000 health compared to the Warlock's 3000 and doesn't suffer from a long delay. Plus it has a 2.5 recharge time. Monks are probably the only actually good support class. Even if they aren't, they're still the best.


Dark Angel < Royal Guard: Dark Angels are barely on par with DK's. They gain EXP a tad faster, and you'll get a free 1-2 with Zacharia ANYWAY (Zach is so powerful that he's worth building the 5x5 temple even without temple abuse). Royal Guards, however, are worth building the training room. They are so strong, and so easy to get in masses that they are the best creature in the entire game. The only 1 better then Dark Knights. Dark Angels can get to level 10 and then they do become very strong due to their attack gaining a massive boost (They can kill level 8s so fast then that they actually do much better then a level 10 DK or RG would). In general, however, DA's are just not that good because before level 10 not dying is a much bigger priority. Healing DA's in time is just hard and as such you could almost think about throwing the token DA out for a DK. Almost. Their spells help them to enter the melee later, and this is actually what saves them so they can do their massive damage without being initially targetted by 3 different creatures.

Dark Angels don't gain Experience faster, it's the same values. 100 and 20 for Combat and Training EXP each. If anything, I can argue that Black Knights train faster as they don't kill as quickly, thus giving more time in combat for more EXP.

And yeah, Royal Guards outclass Black Knights easily. They have better Health (5000), better damage (500), and a better stun time (3). They're designed to be enemies, and as proof, their stats rival the Lord of the Land's. Lords have 6000 Health but 400 damage, though they have a 2 second stun time instead and of course Turncoat/Chicken immunity.

Also, no a Dark Angel's spells do not help them at all. It's a similar problem as the Salamander, though not nearly as bad. Their Disruption deals 990 damage, but they deal 1470 damage by the time they get it. At Level 8 when they get the bugged Hailstorm, which deals only 384 damage at max potential, they will deal 2520 damage normally. And the three worthless Skeletons they summon at Level 10 are worthless compared to their 5040 damage. You know, you can just as easily drop them last and a second later to prevent them from getting slaughtered. (Same with the Fairy)


Warlock < Wizard: PIIIIIIIIIIIIIiiiiiiiiiiii. God I love wizards. I've used them and Wizards are the only useful support class. You need them for research, and holding onto 5 of em and letting them level to 8 turns them into surprisingly good damage dealers. The AOE effect on their fireballs means they will simply rip through closely packed enemies, and this is pretty much the only way online fights go. Once I had like 5 wizards and a bunch of Royals running into an enemy dungeon, he dropped his Knights a bit further away and the Royals couldn't reach them in time, the wizards went PIIIIIIIIIIiiii and most of the knights lost like half their health. I don't recall wizards damaging my own guys severely, but 5 wizards definately felt like an extra edge so that's what I'm basing it on. Warlocks are horrible. Actually scratch horrible (And also scratch that on the Archer's mentioned). Useless is actually the correct word.

I believe they shout "Daaaayyyyy" or something along those lines, maybe they need sunlight.

Anyways, Wizards are as previously mentioned, outclassed by Monks and their healing. They're the second best though, but that still doesn't say much. Ranged abilities are still worthless. 600 damage at Level 10 is crappy. They deal more damage with Melee (1020) at that level for God's sake! That is pathetic, worse than the Warlock situation when he barely deals more damage at Level 10, 780 w/Melee compared to his strongest Meteor spell of 600 damage. I have to question why the old man is dealing more damage with melee though.

Also, what are you talking about AoE? Meteor/Super Meteor (despite being called Super, it still does the same amount of damage as the Warlock's Meteor) are single hitting abilities. I even tested it, and it doesn't work. As for that example, I really don't believe you. Knights at Level 1 have 4000 Health, and 2000 is ~3.3x greater than 600. If you hit them while they were stunned, yeah, but even if they were Level 3, it wouldn't have exceeded a quarter of their health.


Temple abuse is bad, hmmmkay?

But abuse of everything else is allowed? I don't follow your logic.


Goblin > Guard: Heh, it's the only 2 left, and they both start with G! Goblins are better. They have a use. Guards are annoying guys which join you when you want to get RG's instead. Goblins are good for rushing, Guards are good for nothing. Well, conversion, but everything is good for conversion. Although the choice between level 1 guard and level 1 Skeleton still goes the direction of the Skeleton because of immediate use most of the time.

:\

Guards have double Health, double damage, (2 second recharge time yeah but it takes 2 seconds for the Goblin's animation to finish) and sextuple Fear. Goblins barely train faster. They gain 40 EXP in the Training Room and Guards gain 30. Goblins gain 200 in real combat while the Guard gains 150. Goblins are just not worth anything.

Also, I'll repeat what I said about the Salamander/Giant in that your argument about Guards being outclassed by Royals is invalid, as Goblins are even more outclassed by most other creatures so it doesn't make the Goblin any better than the Guard.


Oh crap, Skeletons were also left. They suck so who cares.

No they're not. They're overpowered. That's why nobody uses them, it's just not fun anymore.

HerselfTheElf
September 14th, 2012, 12:14
Some of your points are correct. It has been a very, very long time since I played. I might forget some things.

Oh and adding a Hellhound peeing on the corpse would've made for a better picture, imho.

Salamanders: I realize where your coming from when looking at stats, but it just works that way really well. Salamanders also deal very good damage, they attack extremely fast and I have no idea what you mean with "slow" animation. Salamanders had no slow animation when I played. It was Bite, Bite, Bite, Bite. And way faster then the BK's attack. I'm sure that on equal level Salamanders don't even come close to BK's, but on level 9/10 they are definately capable of beating a lvl 8 BK (I remember testing vs Knights on Pet Dungeon and it was no contest). The stats quite honestly mean nothing to me because I never really knew how stats progressed in DK2. I know the standard values at level 1, but I got everything from in-game testing back then. I'm not sure if this progression has been changed in any later patches, but the stats you cite do not seem to be the way it looked to be in-game. Even level 9 Salamanders were very much capable of beating level 8 BK's, maybe a tiny bit weaker. At level 10 they would crush level 8 BK's. The massive advantage they had was the insane fast EXP progression (Though still a bit slower then Goblins), combined with range and lava immunity. I am talking ONLY about lava maps. I've won nearly every time I used them. Perhaps this said more about the skill of my opponents then about the viability of Salamanders, but in all-lava maps they can "siege" the heart, it's easy to pick them up and play around with the banner and continue to hit the enemies imps and creatures. The strategy involves more annoying your opponent to death rather then killing him because your Salamanders can beat his BK's. They can't because it takes longer to get Salamanders then Goblins, and by that point the enemy has BK's strong enough to take the Salamanders easily in a direct fight.

The Giant manufacturing thing: Eh...how did it work in DK2? I don't suppose RG's can manufacture? Either way I only found use for traps and such on certain maps. On Frosty's it just sucked most of the time. Combination of Gold/Amount of area you needed to trap meant it wasn't viable. I'll admit magic trap combinations weren't very sophisticated back when I played. The best I came up with was front row electric traps with sentry in the back. The biggest problem was 9 out of 10 times the enemy being capable of avoiding your traps by digging to another spot. This was especially easy on Frosties, meaning you had to trap a massive area which wasn't viable with the amount of gold you had.

Dark Mistress: I admit I might be confused here. Dark Angels get Hail at level 8. This is probably how it worked for me. And the Hail thing is not a lie, although you are completely right about Heal curing stun and making it a bit less useful. I am absolutely certain that lightning + hail caused this very long stun (I'm talking Bile Demon proportions) when I played. Maybe it was a bug and got fixed, but it did happen. Hail, by the way, was AOE. I do remember it's damage being so abysmally small that it was basicly useless, but the main problem was you couldn't get enough DA's and even then they needed level 8 to get it. Large numbers of Hail could very well been pretty deadly due to hitting 4-5 creatures at once. Maybe that's why the Mistresses gained it at level 10 and not 8. I do not remember Freeze being very good either, DK2 simply isn't DK1. Lightning was by far the best spell in the game due to stun (Actually maybe it's a bit like DK1...). The biggest problem with freeze was mistresses targetting really badly. Either the same dude all at once, or simply not using it. If you could pick/drop them and freeze 1 guy for each mistress it would be pretty awesome support.

Vampire: Depends on what you mean good. Brainless BK spam with insanely good heal/grab micro? Perhaps they lacked in other areas. I did get into an arguement with someone about Vamps/Rogues. I said vamps sucked and that rogues were better. We had a 1v1 where I used Rogues and he used Vampires. I lost and that is how my opinion got formed on Invisibility: Surprisingly awesome when you first see it, unfortunately not that great in actual use. I'm not sure how, he just went after my heart and my rogues couldn't kill his guys fast enough. Maybe I used them wrong, maybe Rogues just suck. The biggest problem is the Casino. Such an expensive room. The Graveyard is also ridiculously expensive. Yea you can get Kessler, yea you kill gobbo's and get Vampires. But it's just too slow. If I keep BK's, and keep killing everything else I still end up with maybe a few vamps when I hit the portal limit for BK's. With the very expensive graveyard, and Vamps simply being worse fighters then BK's (The joke 666 dmg is hardly unbalancing, Vamps just attack very slowly) a few of them is just not worth the cost. And if they die in the pit, they lose a level. Not being able to convert them is both a bonus and a penalty. If you lose a fight you now have a bunch of level 7 vamps (assuming you got them to 8 in the first place). If you plan a bit and use imps correctly any dead can probably be dragged back to the lair anyway, with a vamp you simply lose a level. Although he is ready to be used again, it's still better then having to let them rest, but it's certainly not all awesome.

And what abuse? Graveyard abuse? Prison abuse? It's not abuse when it sucks.
Or do you mean conversion abuse? That's simply the spoils of war. Conversion has always owned, even in DK1. It's a very good gameplay element. It's just much better in DK2. The only reason I didn't love DK2 like DK1 is because it's BK's all around. In DK1 you have Bile Demons, Mistresses, Dragons, Horned Reapers, Orcs. Some might be better then others, but they are all VIABLE. I'm not mentioning Skels/Vamps because those were broken in DK1. 99% of the game is just way better then DK1, it just misses part of that magic of how combat went in DK2. Total and complete carnage, a keeper had very little say in how it went apart from picking up/dropping which was a big problem with no stun. In DK2 it's all Heal, BK's and Inferno. And Elites. God elites are so stupid. Unneccissary neccessities for your dungeon...I got tired of multiplayer simple of how often I had to build that same stupid temple and pit combination, attract the elites, make 7x7 pit blah blah blah.

Monk: The heal sucks. They get it at level 4 and at level 8 they get speed or something useless. At level 10 protect or the other useless thing (speed). The AI is massively smart and decides to go "Homino, Speed, Homino, Protect, Homino, Heal". "Bah he died, how could that have happened? It's not like I casted heal first on a dying RG, I made sure it could walk fast and be protected first!". 9 out of 10 times heal will be casted on a dead guy, and at level 4 they're useless due to monks not being amazingly strong in the first place. They also run into melee and that gets them killed. Pick up/drop might work decently, but they're hardly worth keeping over a wizard or RG, let alone paying the massive price for a graveyard to attract them in the first place.

Fairy: DA's are very good fighters in the first place. The spell delay gives them just a bit more survivability making them viable when you get 1-2 along with Zach rather then preferring BK's. Fairy's suck and a bit of spell delay is not going to help them one bit. Apart from already being weak and dying so easily they require a frigging 5x5 temple to get 2 of them. You can't use a group of them similar to mistresses. They're too expensive to get (most Frosty's were rather gold-deprived if I remember correctly) and Wizards are far cheaper and an effort to get rid of and replace with RG's once your research is finished. Fairy's are a waste, although you might get a few with Zach but like I said, gold was so short that Kaleb was really the only elite you could go for on those maps.

Dark Angel: I was nearly certain that DA's got exp a bit faster. Maybe it's been changed, maybe it was always the same. I can get confused since it's been a very long time since I played.
Look, I admit spells do crap damage in the game. But it's not THAT bad. The DA does some damage with Hail and disruption before entering melee, should they enter melee they will forego those spells and simply start attacking. Sometimes the enemy might get a hit in but you're dropping your DA's in a very bad spot then. It happens, but usually the 1k dmg added by disruption and the pitiful aoe hail is free damage without having to be stuck in melee. You won't ever want to use dedicated support in the form of warlocks, but when the creature can fight and do some damage with spells it's overall a win situation in my opinion. Yea the Skeleton summoning sucks. I remember when getting a level 10 DA (DAMNIT I lost that game because I lagged and he died, then the dude converted him and killed me >_<) and was so disappointed. Level 1 Skeletons?! COME ON! They needed to be level 10. BUT those skeletons CAN take a hit each. It's a very small win situation, and nowhere near a good spell, but they add some cannon fodder to the mix and they're totally expendable. Maybe they manage to kill an imp by fluke, or something.

Wizard: Day? Could be because they are bringing light to the darkness in the form of fiery fireballs of fire. Here I think it must be that this has been changed in an update. I'm 100% certain Firebomb and the improved versions did AOE damage. Not as big as Hail, but closely packed mobs would certainly have atleast 2-3 guys get hit. Wizards were also SURPRISINGLY good, as in, I totally expected them to be horrible like the Warlock and unusable except for research. Out of desperation I quickly tossed them in the combat pit when getting attacked (figured I could stall and level them a bit and they might do SOMETHING rather then possibly enter a fight with 5 less creatures). They just did very good and since then I used them. They're good because they gain firebomb at level 4 and then blue sparkly firebomb at level 8. They fire these off so fast that the damage adds up quickly. And the improved fire bomb did more AOE or something. It WAS better but I can't recall exactly how.

It was a surprise to me too, the biggest surprise though was the very first time I played and got some warlocks. I was like "awesome lets see what these guys can do now" and tossed them in the combat pit. Awesome they level so easily I barely have to heal them. Level 8 and some level 1 dwarves or something came along. My level 8 warlocks got owned. Holy crap. WTF. This. Game. SUCKS. They attack SO slow. They're so damn slow they can't even get a heal off. Who the hell thought it was a good idea to give them a heal that they wouldn't use until something was nearly dying and that it couldn't heal in time even vs a level 1s.

Guard: I did not think Guards gained EXP that fast. How fast do RG's gain? Either way the point is moot. Guards are outclassed by RG's and you can't rush them because they need a training room. Kaleb's little ring of training can't attract them (atleast I think so, neither can Salamanders) and you have to build a dedicated training room. This is also the reason you can't rush Salamanders on a normal map, only on lava. Once you build the training room, RG's can also be attracted (they also need some other stuff, but it's all essential AFAIK) and the guards are just there to annoy you and having to throw them out. Guards simply are not viable in a rush and RG's are so much stronger that 50% extra exp gain doesn't help enough.

Goblin: Their EXP gain is twice that of BK's. Goblins can be attracted with nothing, I believe. I do not remember if you can only attract 1 and if you need to build a lair/hatchery for more. The point is on certain maps you can rush so effectively that it's 10 gobbo's at level 4 vs 4 BK's at level 2. The gobbo's will win, by the way.

Skeleton: Explain. Skels do crap damage, yes you can throw useless creatures in prison and smack them ready. Yes they do not count toward portal limit. I was at the point where I tried everything when this game was new because you couldn't just pick up a "guide" since the meta had yet to be formed. Skellies did not work. Perhaps my micro is too bad, but BK's never die in my pit and Vampires/Skels ALWAYS do. And skels will be GONE then. Poof. Eliminated. Suppose the enemy kills your level 8 Skel. Boom, gone. If this happens with another creature you might be able to get imps to drag the bodies back. Everything said on Vampires counts for Skels aswell. Except the prison is cheap and essential.

Metal Gear Rex
September 14th, 2012, 15:10
Some of your points are correct. It has been a very, very long time since I played. I might forget some things.

Saying that I'm partially right and then adding in that you're working entirely from memory and (may) have forgotten things is not a good way to introduce an argument, just so you know :P

Either way, I'm going to be brief here as I don't want to use up so much time with a reply. You seem to be a bit stubborn to be honest though. You're working from memory and basing arguments off of personal experiences. I'm actually going back and getting hard facts about the original game and I in general am more familiar with it as I work with it weekly, sometimes daily for my patch. I do know what I'm talking about.


Salamanders: I realize where your coming from when looking at stats, but it just works that way really well. Salamanders also deal very good damage, they attack extremely fast and I have no idea what you mean with "slow" animation. Salamanders had no slow animation when I played. It was Bite, Bite, Bite, Bite. And way faster then the BK's attack.

That's because you played it at a higher speed. At 100% Speed, the animations move pretty slowly. I also never stated they outright had a slow animation, but that their animation outlasted their recharge time. It takes a little more than 1.5 seconds from what I tested. The comparison was mostly to the Giant, which means that relatively speaking, the Giant deals 225 damage compared to the Salamander's 200. So yes, he does actually have a higher DPS due to the animation speed slowing down the Salamander if only slightly.


I'm sure that on equal level Salamanders don't even come close to BK's, but on level 9/10 they are definately capable of beating a lvl 8 BK (I remember testing vs Knights on Pet Dungeon and it was no contest). The stats quite honestly mean nothing to me because I never really knew how stats progressed in DK2. I know the standard values at level 1, but I got everything from in-game testing back then.

If the stats won't convince you then I'll give you real examples. I tested a single Level 8 BK against 2 Level 9 Salamanders. Here's what happened. One of them kept shooting fireballs at him and the BK went after the other. He killed him pretty quickly, and afterwards the second Salamander became too scared to fight. (Which is why I had to test against 2, as 1 would simply run away) I tried against 2 Level 10 Salamanders and the Salamanders barely won. However, even at Level 10 does a single Salamander flee from a Level 8 Black Knight. The BK needs to be Level 7 or lower for a Level 10 Salamander to not be afraid, and just barely. It's a difference between 565 and 532.


I'm not sure if this progression has been changed in any later patches, but the stats you cite do not seem to be the way it looked to be in-game.

I have access to both 1.3 and 1.7 versions. Aside from changing data on the elites (which, yes were intended to be in 1.3, there's data for them) there hasn't been anything actually notable if anything at all. I have familiarized myself with the 1.3 stats and looked at the 1.7 version for reference. I tell you, they're the same. Even if they weren't, the fact that I'm referencing 1.7 stats is enough as that's the version you had it seems. You wouldn't have had Mercenary Portals otherwise.


Even level 9 Salamanders were very much capable of beating level 8 BK's, maybe a tiny bit weaker. At level 10 they would crush level 8 BK's. The massive advantage they had was the insane fast EXP progression (Though still a bit slower then Goblins), combined with range and lava immunity.

Again, their range is a weakness. It hinders their damage output heavily. In fact, part of the reason why the BK won against the 2 Level 9 Salamanders was because the other one was stuck fighting at range. I even tested him against 3 Level 9 Salamanders. The Salamanders barely won. One more hit from the BK and it would have been all over.

Also, they have the same training rate as Goblins. Reference to stats and all. Only difference is in combat, they have a tendency to drag things out because instead of dealing damage, they sit in the back chucking wimpy 150 damaging fireballs.


I am talking ONLY about lava maps. I've won nearly every time I used them. Perhaps this said more about the skill of my opponents then about the viability of Salamanders, but in all-lava maps they can "siege" the heart, it's easy to pick them up and play around with the banner and continue to hit the enemies imps and creatures. The strategy involves more annoying your opponent to death rather then killing him because your Salamanders can beat his BK's. They can't because it takes longer to get Salamanders then Goblins, and by that point the enemy has BK's strong enough to take the Salamanders easily in a direct fight.

Why did no one you fought ever think of building a bridge to counter attack? :/ Doesn't even need to be there to counter attack, it can be used defensively to extend your range with Lightning or to simply boost mana income.

Also, I have a bit more insight on how you train Salamanders to higher levels, EXP off of Imps. Still, it looks more like a case of a less competent opponent.


The Giant manufacturing thing: Eh...how did it work in DK2?

You drop a Giant in a Workshop and it builds stuff.


I don't suppose RG's can manufacture?

As I said, there's only 3 creatures in the whole game that can manufacture. Stone Knight doesn't count. That's one of the things I didn't like about DKII.


Either way I only found use for traps and such on certain maps. On Frosty's it just sucked most of the time. Combination of Gold/Amount of area you needed to trap meant it wasn't viable. I'll admit magic trap combinations weren't very sophisticated back when I played. The best I came up with was front row electric traps with sentry in the back. The biggest problem was 9 out of 10 times the enemy being capable of avoiding your traps by digging to another spot. This was especially easy on Frosties, meaning you had to trap a massive area which wasn't viable with the amount of gold you had.

Sounds more like an issue with personal experience.


And the Hail thing is not a lie, although you are completely right about Heal curing stun and making it a bit less useful. I am absolutely certain that lightning + hail caused this very long stun (I'm talking Bile Demon proportions) when I played. Maybe it was a bug and got fixed, but it did happen.

Like I said, I actually went in game and tested it, and it didn't work. I tested it on a BK, who has a 4 second stun time compared to the Bile's 5 second stun time. I also knew for a fact that he was being damaged by it, I saw his Health flower flashing. If such a thing existed, it probably would be more well known. You may have been confused by the Bile Demon's normal stun time.


Hail, by the way, was AOE. I do remember it's damage being so abysmally small that it was basicly useless, but the main problem was you couldn't get enough DA's and even then they needed level 8 to get it. Large numbers of Hail could very well been pretty deadly due to hitting 4-5 creatures at once. Maybe that's why the Mistresses gained it at level 10 and not 8.

I know it is AoE, I stated it. Also, it's not really possible to realistically hit 4-5 creatures at once. They would have to be very close and knowing how collisions work, they likely would step out of bound and then Hail's bugginess would take over.


I do not remember Freeze being very good either, DK2 simply isn't DK1. Lightning was by far the best spell in the game due to stun (Actually maybe it's a bit like DK1...). The biggest problem with freeze was mistresses targetting really badly. Either the same dude all at once, or simply not using it. If you could pick/drop them and freeze 1 guy for each mistress it would be pretty awesome support.

There are better spells than Lightning, but the main problem with Lightning is the creatures its given to. They're melee based and the spells themselves have long recharge time, which limits its usefulness.

Freeze does run into targeting problems but then again so do plenty of spells. It only goes unnoticed because it doesn't really matter on basic single hitting spells. It's still a potentially powerful spell if used correctly.


Yea you can get Kessler, yea you kill gobbo's and get Vampires. But it's just too slow. If I keep BK's, and keep killing everything else I still end up with maybe a few vamps when I hit the portal limit for BK's.


B) You build a Combat Pit and a 3x3 Temple then drop Black Knights in there to get a Vampire. The latter is overall more effective, though more expensive. Plus with Vampires not counting against the Portal, the Vampires won't slow down the attraction speed.

That's what strategy B is for.


With the very expensive graveyard, and Vamps simply being worse fighters then BK's (The joke 666 dmg is hardly unbalancing, Vamps just attack very slowly) a few of them is just not worth the cost. And if they die in the pit, they lose a level. Not being able to convert them is both a bonus and a penalty. If you lose a fight you now have a bunch of level 7 vamps (assuming you got them to 8 in the first place). If you plan a bit and use imps correctly any dead can probably be dragged back to the lair anyway, with a vamp you simply lose a level. Although he is ready to be used again, it's still better then having to let them rest, but it's certainly not all awesome.

The attacking slow is mainly an illusion. They actually have very short animation speeds compared to their actual recharge time. They still do heavier damage than Black Knights.

Also, if you lose a fight on the offense, then you're practically guaranteed to lose the creature. Vampires, however, only suffer a level drop. On the defense, you aren't always able to save your creatures as the Imps will run away from the battle, so resurrection can be useful there too. Not to mention, it's a lot harder to press on with an attack if the Vampires keep resurrecting and thus become ready and able to fight again the moment they die compared to normal creatures having to wait until they're dragged back (which is not possible if the enemy wins the battle) and then recover.

Losing a level is better than losing a creature.


And what abuse? Graveyard abuse? Prison abuse? It's not abuse when it sucks.
Or do you mean conversion abuse? That's simply the spoils of war. Conversion has always owned, even in DK1.

That's because it has always been an overpowered and unchecked mechanic. It is one of the main methods to surpass the creature limit and can easily be used to break the game. Trying to coat it with a realistic term won't cover up the fact that it is a very unbalanced mechanic, nor will it make or change the situation to be any better. It is still abuse. Black Knight and Royal Guard spam tactics aren't exactly fair either. Neither are Elites. It's just abusing a more overpowered creature.


Monk: The heal sucks. They get it at level 4 and at level 8 they get speed or something useless. At level 10 protect or the other useless thing (speed).

They get it at Level 1.


The AI is massively smart and decides to go "Homino, Speed, Homino, Protect, Homino, Heal". "Bah he died, how could that have happened? It's not like I casted heal first on a dying RG, I made sure it could walk fast and be protected first!"

That would be implying that Monks start out at Level 8. Even if you just train them up to Level 4 where they have 2 abilities, and even if they use Speed first, their animation is short enough that they'll cast Heal before the injured creature dies. If you still have a problem, then don't train them that far.


9 out of 10 times heal will be casted on a dead guy, and at level 4 they're useless due to monks not being amazingly strong in the first place. They also run into melee and that gets them killed. Pick up/drop might work decently, but they're hardly worth keeping over a wizard or RG, let alone paying the massive price for a graveyard to attract them in the first place.

You're confusing their heal for a Warlock's Heal. Either way, Wizards still suck as support Units even if you do consider them to be the best. Monks are much better. At least they can actually do something useful, and restoring 4000 Health is a lot better than dealing 600 damage. Especially considering you have to work and be patient to get that 600 damage, where as the 4000 Health restore is gained immediately. If your Monk dies well then they're easily regained, not like you have to rebuild the Graveyard every time.


Fairy: DA's are very good fighters in the first place. The spell delay gives them just a bit more survivability making them viable when you get 1-2 along with Zach rather then preferring BK's. Fairy's suck and a bit of spell delay is not going to help them one bit. Apart from already being weak and dying so easily they require a frigging 5x5 temple to get 2 of them. You can't use a group of them similar to mistresses. They're too expensive to get (most Frosty's were rather gold-deprived if I remember correctly) and Wizards are far cheaper and an effort to get rid of and replace with RG's once your research is finished. Fairy's are a waste, although you might get a few with Zach but like I said, gold was so short that Kaleb was really the only elite you could go for on those maps.

The Spells are useless compared to raw damage. Sure, the delay of one casting will help them not rush into battles, but the delay of 2 or 3 is when it becomes more of a nuisance than an assistance. Plus it isn't really necessary to begin as I already explained.

We've already gone over the issue of the Fairy's attraction, no need to keep repeating it. We're talking simply about how she performs in battle. And in battle, her Lightning is better than the DA's Disruption. With 2 castings in 15 seconds, she can do 1200 damage compared to 990 from 1 casting every 16 seconds by Disruption. If they're in water, it's 2400 damage. It still doesn't truly save her but it does help, it at least makes her offensively better than the Wizard. The fact that she gets it at Level 4 is enough to make her outclass the Wizard, it's simply that she's a melee unit without the stands to support her that keeps her from being actually good. (That and attraction but we've gone over that)


Dark Angel: I was nearly certain that DA's got exp a bit faster. Maybe it's been changed, maybe it was always the same. I can get confused since it's been a very long time since I played.

You must be mis-remembering things, which is what I was referring to earlier when I compared your references to mine.


Look, I admit spells do crap damage in the game. But it's not THAT bad.

Yes, it is.


The DA does some damage with Hail and disruption before entering melee, should they enter melee they will forego those spells and simply start attacking. Sometimes the enemy might get a hit in but you're dropping your DA's in a very bad spot then.

Realistically speaking, the enemy won't get to them if they use their ranged abilities as your other melee fighters will engage with the enemy before that.


It happens, but usually the 1k dmg added by disruption and the pitiful aoe hail is free damage without having to be stuck in melee.

"Free" perhaps but it is another question of whether or not it is good.


Yea the Skeleton summoning sucks. I remember when getting a level 10 DA (DAMNIT I lost that game because I lagged and he died, then the dude converted him and killed me >_<) and was so disappointed. Level 1 Skeletons?! COME ON! They needed to be level 10. BUT those skeletons CAN take a hit each. It's a very small win situation, and nowhere near a good spell, but they add some cannon fodder to the mix and they're totally expendable. Maybe they manage to kill an imp by fluke, or something.

Your argument is really falling apart. I'm actually becoming a bit confused about certain points here and there about whom you're supporting.

Anyways, by the time you get a Level 10 DA, enemies will be strong enough to wipe out Skeletons in 1 hit. Yes, they do help by offering a brief defense for other creatures. But sometimes offense is the best defense, and by having the DA simply charge forward to eliminate the enemy will also save allies from the enemies. Their damage at that point is enough to definitely take out most enemies in 3-5 hits.


Wizard: Day? Could be because they are bringing light to the darkness in the form of fiery fireballs of fire.

Either that or it was something random made up by some guy at EA, who probably was drinking.


Here I think it must be that this has been changed in an update. I'm 100% certain Firebomb and the improved versions did AOE damage. Not as big as Hail, but closely packed mobs would certainly have atleast 2-3 guys get hit.

I jammed about 20 creatures in a narrow passage, possessed a Level 10 Wizard, and fired it off. Only one creature was hurt.


It was a surprise to me too, the biggest surprise though was the very first time I played and got some warlocks. I was like "awesome lets see what these guys can do now" and tossed them in the combat pit. Awesome they level so easily I barely have to heal them. Level 8 and some level 1 dwarves or something came along. My level 8 warlocks got owned. Holy crap. WTF. This. Game. SUCKS. They attack SO slow. They're so damn slow they can't even get a heal off. Who the hell thought it was a good idea to give them a heal that they wouldn't use until something was nearly dying and that it couldn't heal in time even vs a level 1s.

And this is one of the many things I've had to fix in my patch to actually make this game good. Thankfully the Heal issue was easy. Fun fact, it takes 2.769775390625 seconds before the Warlock's Heal actually takes effect. I set it to 0.75 seconds, though it is actually a lot shorter than you think when speaking relatively.


Guard: I did not think Guards gained EXP that fast. How fast do RG's gain? Either way the point is moot. Guards are outclassed by RG's and you can't rush them because they need a training room. Kaleb's little ring of training can't attract them (atleast I think so, neither can Salamanders) and you have to build a dedicated training room. This is also the reason you can't rush Salamanders on a normal map, only on lava. Once you build the training room, RG's can also be attracted (they also need some other stuff, but it's all essential AFAIK) and the guards are just there to annoy you and having to throw them out. Guards simply are not viable in a rush and RG's are so much stronger that 50% extra exp gain doesn't help enough.

Your point is just as moot, as the argument was a comparison between the Goblin and the Guard, not how the Guard is with everyone else.

Royal Guards train as fast as DAs/BKs. Also, they're attracted by the Torture Chamber, not the Training Room.


Goblin: Their EXP gain is twice that of BK's. Goblins can be attracted with nothing, I believe. I do not remember if you can only attract 1 and if you need to build a lair/hatchery for more. The point is on certain maps you can rush so effectively that it's 10 gobbo's at level 4 vs 4 BK's at level 2. The gobbo's will win, by the way.

First off, that comparison isn't even realistically fair. It doesn't take that long to build a Combat Pit and start reeling in BKs. 10 vs 6 is better and even then, that's kinda pushing it. Plus you can't have a BK without a Combat Pit and you can't not have a BK with a Combat Pit. In other words, the BKs will gain the upperhand with training.

Even with your given circumstances, the Goblins won't even stand up against the Black Knights. 4 Lv2 BKs have a combined Threat Level of 1064. 10 Lv4 Goblins have a combined Fear threshold of 880. They will run scared senseless.


Skeleton: Explain. Skels do crap damage, yes you can throw useless creatures in prison and smack them ready. Yes they do not count toward portal limit. I was at the point where I tried everything when this game was new because you couldn't just pick up a "guide" since the meta had yet to be formed. Skellies did not work. Perhaps my micro is too bad, but BK's never die in my pit and Vampires/Skels ALWAYS do. And skels will be GONE then. Poof. Eliminated. Suppose the enemy kills your level 8 Skel. Boom, gone. If this happens with another creature you might be able to get imps to drag the bodies back. Everything said on Vampires counts for Skels aswell. Except the prison is cheap and essential.

It was a joke, I'm surprised you didn't get that. Skeletons are shit. But they actually do have some decent attack power, it's 280. Which outdoes your beloved Salamander's 200 :P

HerselfTheElf
September 14th, 2012, 17:08
Saying that I'm partially right and then adding in that you're working entirely from memory and (may) have forgotten things is not a good way to introduce an argument, just so you know :P



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVmdTf7Vcxc

Yea I can understand you might be getting annoyed with "I thought" and "I remember" and seemingly ignoring your points. I'm just working from experience and unfortunately it has been a very long time and my memory is muddy. Sometimes you point something out and that clears my previously incorrect idea.

And Salamanders on lava maps are surprisingly good with tactics. No I don't just rush into the enemy dungeon. It's tactics that allowed me to win, but only Salamanders allow the use of these tactics because doing this with BK's and a bridge is just ASKING to get your bridge claimed. The salamanders ranged attack is a big part of that. Yea the enemy can just build a stone bridge, I'll just go somewhere else if he has sufficient BK's to kill my Salamanders. Salamanders are fast, and on the limited land map it's hard to drop your BK's in a good spot without being vulnerable to getting hit for extra damage while stunned. Is a BK rush with insane pit micro just as good or maybe better for the lazy player? Yea, but the Salamanders are something people don't expect, and certainly not in the numbers at the level I can quickly get them at. They're completely baffled and unprepared and they screw up enough to give me the win.

I did mention and admit that fear was a big problem for Salamanders. I had the exact same problem testing. My solution was drop 1 salamander close and the other further away. I only tested vs Knights. Maybe that painted a much rosier picture of 1v1 then was actually so since BK's are way better. Although if your saying that it takes 2 frigging Salamanders at level 10 to kill 1 BK then...I'm obviously not remembering correct. If I could find my disk I could install and boot up a pet dungeon and see for myself. I'm totally baffled that it's nothing like I remembered.

With Wizards it just didn't feel that way when I used them. At a certain point I was afraid the AOE of the Wizards might've been hitting my own guys. By the way, in a narrow hall the AOE probably wouldn't take effect. The guys need to be right next to each other. Either way, they were doing alot of damage for a support unit, more then I expected. Although you said Elven Archers get grenade at level 8...I remember trying them and they did surprisingly worse then wizards. I did not remember if they had grenade. Just that they sucked.

The BK temple thing is abuse. If we're abusing Temples, I remember that even Knights did not count towards portal limit (Although I could be wrong...). Still, it's abuse easily sacrificing for masses of Vampires. Even without resurrection (AFAIK you need a HUGE graveyard to let massing Vampires resurrect) they're going to break the game like that. I've also had 1v1 fights between Vampires and BK's, the BK's just ripped them apart at equal levels. It wasn't a huge difference but Vamps just don't attack very fast, they're no Bile Demons or Giants, but it's still too slow to beat the BK. They are the only one with a very good offensive spell for pure damage (although the slow is GRRRR. Such a horrible spell), so you could consider them overal more valuable then BK's, but once in Melee they will lose to the BK.

Monks at level 1 purely for healing? It doesn't work. I've tried it. Unlike in clean 1v1 duelling, fights online are a complete melee with the first guy dying often being the one ganked by 2-3 enemies. Monks cannot heal him in time, even their minor delay wouldn't work. The problem isn't really just the delay, it's the minor delay combined with the fact that they won't use it until the creature is very weak. I can't even use keeper heal succesfully in the same way, and that's instant barring lag. Sometimes the guys will just die SO fast that it's not possible to wait until like 2-3 petals, you have to keep them topped up all the time. The Warlock is much much worse, and I saw the monks healing rather fast and the first thing I did was try monks with RG's. It just doesn't work. The expense of the graveyard combined with the fact that your dealing much less damage due to basicly missing a competent fighter for every monk makes it a bad strategy. He will run over your forces if hes using anything decent, your RG's will be outnumbered and the monks will not be able to keep them topped up against the enemy outnumbering them which basicly guarantees most of your RG's being ganked and thus dying too fast for the monk to heal him.

Converting is balanced. It's to promote offensive tactics rather then huddle in the dungeon and wipe everyone out when your powerful enough. It's the reason you can't train above level 8 and why level 9 and 10 make such a huge difference. Yea you can get over the portal limit, I'm not sure how it works in DK2 (DK1 had it right, it counted towards the portal limit but you could go over it; The main problem was easily getting cheap level 10 skeletons in insane amounts that required only sufficient lair space). But I imagine that even if you convert the enemy creatures, gain his portal and then still attract the number of creatures for 2 portals + all the conversions not counting towards portal limit then it still isn't broken because you don't gain double creatures from 2 portals and the new creatures start at level 1. This is great when you rush, but in a later battle it makes very little difference.

And the whole reason I compare Guards to Royal Guards is because that's valid. I do remember someone else telling me that I only need a torture chamber, that makes RG's even better. I've always built the Training Room with them, I haven't actually tested it without. Many people asked me "Why a training room?" but they used Knights and wouldn't understand. Once I got an answer from a (by the way very good player) that said I didn't need the training room. The whole thing is, Guards are bad because they are outclassed. They need a crap room, and even if that room is needed for RG's you don't want the Guards because they have no value over the RG.

The Fairy isn't viable. Too expensive to get, and even then a bad fighter. Mistresses are better fighters and need an easy and cheap room. They are overal worse then BK's, but they have a use while Fairy's are just useless. Like I said with the Monk and in earlier posts, a creature that runs into melee and has no fighting power is bad because it requires micro while you'd prefer to use it to heal BK's. Mistresses dropped after BK's can stun some enemies, causing them to die instantly in the melee due to stun and although dying fast mistresses do have some combat ability, meaning they won't get massacred when you leave them in to fight.

Goblins have a use. No required room means you get them EARLIER. I'm not saying "Don't build a pit and get goblins!" Or "Throw out those crappy BK's, they do nothing!". The goblin's power lies in the fact that before the pit is up, you already attract some of them. Build the pit, get kaleb, throw them in and let them level while waiting for more goblins/BK's. You are going to outnumber the enemy. Your goblins are strong early on because they gain fast exp, they're no BK's but your advantage is in numbers because your enemy WILL throw out his goblins and certainly not train them due to portal supply slowing.




Even with your given circumstances, the Goblins won't even stand up against the Black Knights. 4 Lv2 BKs have a combined Threat Level of 1064. 10 Lv4 Goblins have a combined Fear threshold of 880. They will run scared senseless.


Okay so my situation just happens to show the goblins have tiny bit of a threat shortage.
With Kaleb and a few BK's Im sure that would push it higher, whereas the enemy can't get higher numbers due to having Warlocks and not being even close to his portal limit. It makes the threat less of a problem.

And on traps: Maybe that's why nobody used them? Troll's aren't very strong, Bile Demons aren't really either. No other choices. Giant's are not strong at all, you might think different due to...well...them being Giants. They're just weaklings especially when compared to the RG. There goes all the traps. It's a very hard choice to make between traps and fighters. In general fighters are better. Traps are only good on defense with the exception of the Jack in the Box and perhaps trap spamming near the enemy heart (you aint getting close with less or weaker fighters, though). JitB is just easy to not...yknow...fall for. Might be good to prevent claiming imps. Too bad they can be attacked by fighters...

Metal Gear Rex
September 15th, 2012, 00:42
Yea I can understand you might be getting annoyed with "I thought" and "I remember" and seemingly ignoring your points. I'm just working from experience and unfortunately it has been a very long time and my memory is muddy. Sometimes you point something out and that clears my previously incorrect idea.

The other thing was that I was becoming rather tired at the time of the posting and that caused me to become less tolerant of things.


And Salamanders on lava maps are surprisingly good with tactics. No I don't just rush into the enemy dungeon. It's tactics that allowed me to win, but only Salamanders allow the use of these tactics because doing this with BK's and a bridge is just ASKING to get your bridge claimed. The salamanders ranged attack is a big part of that. Yea the enemy can just build a stone bridge, I'll just go somewhere else if he has sufficient BK's to kill my Salamanders. Salamanders are fast, and on the limited land map it's hard to drop your BK's in a good spot without being vulnerable to getting hit for extra damage while stunned. Is a BK rush with insane pit micro just as good or maybe better for the lazy player? Yea, but the Salamanders are something people don't expect, and certainly not in the numbers at the level I can quickly get them at. They're completely baffled and unprepared and they screw up enough to give me the win.

That is enemy incompetence. A better strategy to deal with such hit and run tactics would be to go on the offensive, as you can't run from defending your own base. And that is where you will lose.


I did mention and admit that fear was a big problem for Salamanders. I had the exact same problem testing. My solution was drop 1 salamander close and the other further away. I only tested vs Knights. Maybe that painted a much rosier picture of 1v1 then was actually so since BK's are way better. Although if your saying that it takes 2 frigging Salamanders at level 10 to kill 1 BK then...I'm obviously not remembering correct. If I could find my disk I could install and boot up a pet dungeon and see for myself.

That strategy you mention is worse, actually. It means the farther away Salamander will simply refer to ranged attacks, which as explained suck.


I'm totally baffled that it's nothing like I remembered.

Essentially the case for all arguments, and the main thing bothering me.


With Wizards it just didn't feel that way when I used them. At a certain point I was afraid the AOE of the Wizards might've been hitting my own guys. By the way, in a narrow hall the AOE probably wouldn't take effect. The guys need to be right next to each other.

That was the whole point of putting ~20 creatures in a single tile hall way. They were all cramped together to the point that they were having collision problems.


Either way, they were doing alot of damage for a support unit, more then I expected. Although you said Elven Archers get grenade at level 8...I remember trying them and they did surprisingly worse then wizards. I did not remember if they had grenade. Just that they sucked.

It's ironic that you say that because the Warlocks have the same spell for the same damage. It takes them to Level 8 as well to obtain.


The BK temple thing is abuse.

So is a lot of other tactics you're mentioning.


If we're abusing Temples, I remember that even Knights did not count towards portal limit (Although I could be wrong...).

Converted Heroes don't count against the Portal Limit. This may apply to converted creatures as well but I'm not certain. Either way, it is another reason why the TC is overpowered.


AFAIK you need a HUGE graveyard to let massing Vampires resurrect

3x3. 9 Tiles. 18000 Gold.


I've also had 1v1 fights between Vampires and BK's, the BK's just ripped them apart at equal levels. It wasn't a huge difference but Vamps just don't attack very fast, they're no Bile Demons or Giants, but it's still too slow to beat the BK. They are the only one with a very good offensive spell for pure damage (although the slow is GRRRR. Such a horrible spell), so you could consider them overal more valuable then BK's, but once in Melee they will lose to the BK.

1vs1 fights only determine so much. Yeah the BK wins on an equal level but what about when the Vampire resurrects? Fact is that Vampires are to be gained in higher number, being as they ignore Portal Limits. Meaning you won't be facing them in equal numbers, they will surpass. And then resurrect.

Fun fact about Slow, it's also bugged. You can cancel out its effects under various conditions, such as stopping to initiate melee or getting stunned.


Monks at level 1 purely for healing? It doesn't work. I've tried it. Unlike in clean 1v1 duelling, fights online are a complete melee with the first guy dying often being the one ganked by 2-3 enemies. Monks cannot heal him in time, even their minor delay wouldn't work.


I'm totally baffled that it's nothing like I remembered.

Are you sure it's not a case of that? Either way, I actually tried it and with a Level 4 Monk so that they they have to deal with Speed getting in the way. They still had no problem healing.


Converting is balanced.

Within a matter of a few minutes, you're instantly gaining a Level 4-8 unit that would usually take you 10-20 minutes to obtain normally, and it only costs 5000-20000 Mana, which is a very easily renewed resource. Additionally, the converted creature surpasses your Portal Limit and gives you a better advantage over the enemy as it is now 16+ Units versus 15 at the most.

No, the Torture Chamber is not balanced.


It's to promote offensive tactics rather then huddle in the dungeon and wipe everyone out when your powerful enough. It's the reason you can't train above level 8 and why level 9 and 10 make such a huge difference.

You need the defeated enemy to be on your land in order to imprison and capture them. In other words, it's better to be defensive to convert. What's more is that on the defense, aside from having a higher chance to convert as you don't have to worry about rushing to claim enemy land, you have access to all Traps/Spells to help out in battle. You can't get converts until a battle occurs, meaning there's no need to rush to the offensive. If anything, waiting makes things better as the stronger the enemy, the more overpowered the TC becomes.


Yea you can get over the portal limit, I'm not sure how it works in DK2 But I imagine that even if you convert the enemy creatures, gain his portal and then still attract the number of creatures for 2 portals + all the conversions not counting towards portal limit then it still isn't broken because you don't gain double creatures from 2 portals and the new creatures start at level 1. This is great when you rush, but in a later battle it makes very little difference.

What? That doesn't even support your "Torture Chamber is not overpowered" argument.


And the whole reason I compare Guards to Royal Guards is because that's valid. I do remember someone else telling me that I only need a torture chamber, that makes RG's even better. I've always built the Training Room with them, I haven't actually tested it without. Many people asked me "Why a training room?" but they used Knights and wouldn't understand. Once I got an answer from a (by the way very good player) that said I didn't need the training room. The whole thing is, Guards are bad because they are outclassed. They need a crap room, and even if that room is needed for RG's you don't want the Guards because they have no value over the RG.

I actually made an error here, you do need the Training Room to get the RG, 25 tiles. Still, you can build them along the wall or something and you won't get a problem with Guards.

Anyways, you're missing why I say it is invalid, because the argument in question is a comparison between the Goblin and the Guard. Goblins are just as outclassed (actually even more outclassed) as Guards, so that argument also works against the Goblin. The fact that Goblins are simply attracted by the Lair makes it worse as they will always come, making them get in the way of a BK. In the Guard case, there are certain easy measures you can take to get around that.


The Fairy isn't viable. Too expensive to get, and even then a bad fighter. Mistresses are better fighters and need an easy and cheap room. They are overal worse then BK's, but they have a use while Fairy's are just useless.

Same argument as the Guard VS Goblin. Same counter. And additionally, you're very wrong there to consider the DM to have use while the Fairy is useless.

DMs are outclassed in melee combat as are Fairies, this we can both agree on, yes? What the DM is useful for is her Lightning, its stun effect. But the Fairy has Lightning at the same level. What's more, it is better than the DM's. It deals double damage and has about half recharge time. It is better in every way.

And no need to bring the Temple here, we've gone over that over and over again. It doesn't effect her raw ability in battle, more so her overall usefulness but the DM is overall outclassed as you admit, making the argument pointless.


Mistresses dropped after BK's can stun some enemies, causing them to die instantly in the melee due to stun

You even consider it to be the DM's use when the Fairy does that even better. :/


Goblins have a use. No required room means you get them EARLIER. I'm not saying "Don't build a pit and get goblins!" Or "Throw out those crappy BK's, they do nothing!". The goblin's power lies in the fact that before the pit is up, you already attract some of them. Build the pit, get kaleb, throw them in and let them level while waiting for more goblins/BK's. You are going to outnumber the enemy. Your goblins are strong early on because they gain fast exp, they're no BK's but your advantage is in numbers because your enemy WILL throw out his goblins and certainly not train them due to portal supply slowing.

What are you talking about? I wasn't lying when I said your 10 Goblins to 4 BKs was exaggerating, nor when I said that 10 Goblins to 6 BKs was pushing things. The Combat Pit costs 750 Gold. That's 6750 Gold for a 3x3 Pit, which is what you need to start attracting 2 of them. 12000 for a 4x4, which will get you 5. It costs 300 to build a Lair, which is 2700 for a 3x3 Lair and that's enough to keep creatures coming for a while. It's not a complete room, but the point is to begin attraction sooner and you can just mine for more Gold to finish the rooms as you're waiting for BKs to come.

Therefore, realistically speaking, against a true BK spam tactic, you're only going to get 2 Goblins in at the most before they start bringing in BKs. As far as training goes, if they begin training at about the same time, the BKs will be almost Level 3 by the time the Goblins are Level 4, you forgot to take in consideration the increase of needed EXP to level. They're about 750 EXP away from hitting Level 3. And if you focus more on getting Goblins rather than true BK spamming, then realistically speaking the BK Player will have the advantage of the Combat Pit before the Goblin Player and thus train faster.


Okay so my situation just happens to show the goblins have tiny bit of a threat shortage.

"Tiny"? That is extreme exaggeration. The Goblin quantity is 2.5x the Black Knight's and their levels are double the Black Knight's and they still need a 25% higher fear value to not run away. Not to mention, once the first Goblin goes down (which will likely be before the first BK) then the rest will get scared as even with a 25% higher fear threshold, they're barely able to keep their courage in one piece.

Just face is, the Goblin's crappy Fear stat makes him a worthless unit.


With Kaleb and a few BK's Im sure that would push it higher, whereas the enemy can't get higher numbers due to having Warlocks and not being even close to his portal limit. It makes the threat less of a problem.

Wait, what? Why does the Black Knight player have to have Warlocks? (I'm assuming that's what you're saying, it all sounds like a really confusing statement but either way, it still makes no sense)


And on traps: Maybe that's why nobody used them?

I used them in my last DKII match, and so did my opponent.


Giant's are not strong at all, you might think different due to...well...them being Giants. They're just weaklings especially when compared to the RG. There goes all the traps. It's a very hard choice to make between traps and fighters. In general fighters are better. Traps are only good on defense with the exception of the Jack in the Box and perhaps trap spamming near the enemy heart (you aint getting close with less or weaker fighters, though). JitB is just easy to not...yknow...fall for. Might be good to prevent claiming imps. Too bad they can be attacked by fighters...

Traps offer support for your fighters, you don't have your traps go 1-on-1 with enemy creatures.

Sentries deal 250 damage every 6 seconds. 2 of them and you're doing better than the Wizard. Plus they have range. The Lightning Trap deals 4000 damage in 12 seconds, that outright outclasses the Dark Mistress' Lightning. Then there's the Freeze Trap which keeps a creature frozen for 20 seconds. There's Barricades to help defend your Traps. Plus Traps don't count against your Portal Limit last time I checked, so now you have your more powerful support AND main fighting force. Sure you sacrifice 2 Royal Guards for Giants, but 6 Sentries is better than 3 Wizards, and 3 Wizards would cost you 3 Royal Guards. So yeah, Giants and Traps are good.

You don't need 5 Giants to make traps, only 2 at the most due to their ridiculous manufacturing rates. And that doesn't reduce your fighting abilities in the slightest, especially with Traps to more than make up for it. Also, Traps are useful for defending strategic areas. In my last DKII match, we played The Deep End and were placing Traps on the Portals as battles would surely break out there. And they did, the traps most certainly made a difference.

HerselfTheElf
September 15th, 2012, 17:26
Warlocks is for research, getting BK's takes longer then Goblins. Don't goblins need...nothing?

I remember (there I go again) that I was digging around on MPD while having a portal claimed and goblins kept pouring in. Normally you have to build a Combat Pit, but even if you build a Pit, your still going to get Goblins.

With Goblins along with BK's while rushing you would be so fast that your main focus isn't research until you beat the first enemy. Throwing out gobbo's for BK's would make you max your portal too slowly and thus not make it a rush but a normal game as everyone that spams BK's will.

Unless you use a completely different strategy (the meta wasn't very advanced as it was right after Maiden was released) you're going to need Warlocks to research Heal, preferably upgraded. Tremor is also a neccessity as people tend to be walled in by the time you max out in BK's.

Metal Gear Rex
September 15th, 2012, 18:07
Warlocks is for research

Warlocks are gained on both sides then so it doesn't really matter and isn't worth bringing up.


getting BK's takes longer then Goblins. Don't goblins need...nothing?


I wasn't lying when I said your 10 Goblins to 4 BKs was exaggerating, nor when I said that 10 Goblins to 6 BKs was pushing things. The Combat Pit costs 750 Gold. That's 6750 Gold for a 3x3 Pit, which is what you need to start attracting 2 of them. 12000 for a 4x4, which will get you 5. It costs 300 to build a Lair, which is 2700 for a 3x3 Lair and that's enough to keep creatures coming for a while. It's not a complete room, but the point is to begin attraction sooner and you can just mine for more Gold to finish the rooms as you're waiting for BKs to come.

Therefore, realistically speaking, against a true BK spam tactic, you're only going to get 2 Goblins in at the most before they start bringing in BKs.

And you need a Lair to bring in more than 1 creature.


I remember (there I go again) that I was digging around on MPD while having a portal claimed and goblins kept pouring in. Normally you have to build a Combat Pit, but even if you build a Pit, your still going to get Goblins.

Yes I know, and that is what I've been trying to tell you in the Goblin VS Guard argument, that Goblins are just as bad if not worse that Guards as they are even more outclassed and simply get in the way.


With Goblins along with BK's while rushing you would be so fast that your main focus isn't research until you beat the first enemy. Throwing out gobbo's for BK's would make you max your portal too slowly and thus not make it a rush but a normal game as everyone that spams BK's will.


The Goblin quantity is 2.5x the Black Knight's and their levels are double the Black Knight's and they still need a 25% higher fear value to not run away. Not to mention, once the first Goblin goes down (which will likely be before the first BK) then the rest will get scared as even with a 25% higher fear threshold, they're barely able to keep their courage in one piece.

In other words, even with half as many BKs as Goblins, BKs are still much greater. Not to mention, the more creatures you have the slower it will take for the next. And when you sack a creature, it does appear to increase the speed of the next arriving creature. Not much of a drawback.

* * * * *

I'm assuming by your lack of a response, you're giving up/withdrawing your other arguments?

HerselfTheElf
September 15th, 2012, 21:04
Not really, but I can't keep making walls of text. And how am I supposed to retort when you say "Monks heal just fine, even at level 4"? It's yes vs no, it's pointless to continue here. It's not an admission of being incorrect, but if you can use monks just fine and beat other players without getting steamrolled due to being outnumbered then how can I argue against that?

The Vampire resurrection thing...I remember having a 5x5 graveyard and my vamps didnt resurrect. That narrator kept saying my graveyard was too small or something. Once a bunch of the vamps died they started to resurrect. But it's pointless, again. Temple abuse is not allowed, TC is allowed. It's cheating because it's too simple a mechanic to make a huge army. TC requires you to kill an enemy and drag it all the way to your prison. It might be a very powerful room, but it isn't overpowered because an opponent can defend against it by not having his creatures die in the first place. Temple abuse has no defense other than doing the exact same thing. If you want vamps the only valid way to do so is to slap goblins to death.

And for the rush: Warlocks are not gained. That's why it's a rush. I don't even build a library, I rush the enemy and get his library. So my edge is he has a bunch of warlocks at level 1, maybe a few DK's at level 2-3 while I have maxed out creatures without warlocks.
Again, guards do NOT enter without any room being built. Rushing is not viable in mercenary games. Rushing is viable in some maps and goblins are attracted by nothing, once you have a combat pit and a lair they will start running in. Everything you need to attract multiple goblins is what you need to attract multiple DK's. Throwing out the gobbo's is worse because you will be missing those as fighters, this is their use. Early game fighters. It's only pure logic: You keep gobbos and level them, the opponent only lets Warlocks and BK's join. It's pretty obvious who is going to win the battle in the early game, the person that keeps the gobbo's and levels them. Suppose you want to rush in mercenary games, then the Guard rush would be horribly bad compared to a Knight Rush. I'm not sure if Mercenary portals have any "useless" creatures entering with only a Pit/Lair/Hatchery, but even if they do then those "useless" creatures warrant use over the guard because hes worse then the Knight (If you show through stats that this isn't true, THEN the guard would be useful as opposed to useless) and therefore building a useless training room is simply never warranted.

Traps: A Wizard can be dropped near your heart if the enemy digs around your traps. You can't always choose to fight near traps. People aren't stupid. In certain maps, yes, traps are essential to defend key locations.
I also think the trap damage is incorrect. I think you meant 400 dmg for the lightning trap. I remember doing a calculation back then and the sentry DPS was better then the lightning DPS. Again, it usually depends on the map. Salamanders are only useable with lava maps, gobbo's are only usable in small maps with a portal very closeby, preferably low gold aswell and traps require maps with key locations where controlling them gives you an advantage.

Fairy's are crap, do you even want to compare the combat ability of a frigging fairy to the DM? Do you even want to compare the cost of a DM (by the way entirely essential and very very cheap considering you only need a strip around a prison which ALSO gains you an elite PLUS the ability to convert). You get 2 for a 5x5 temple, they're too expensive. Zach on most frosties is too expensive, but suppose you do get him then you can get 1-2 fairy's with that and that's it. A DA is 10x better then a fairy and people don't build 5x5 temples to attract those because it's too expensive.

And by convert you thought I meant turncoat somewhere, isn't turncoat a 1 creature only thing? It's essential to use, but hardly overpowering since it's equal. Both keepers have access to it. You might consider it lame, but then again so are DK's.

MeinCookie
September 16th, 2012, 00:54
I would say it isn't about whether any one player can win with them - for any creature - because ultimately every adversary will vary in skill, in luck, in intuition and in strategy. Winning with something is is a wholy unreliable way to judge its worth as there are far to many extraneous variables influencing the outcome. Far to many.

The only way to judge a creature is to look at their individual merits and see how that influences friends and allies.

Also, adding subjective pronouncements like 'this is allowed' and 'this isn't allowed' and what is valid and what is not. Who made you god? Bullfrog included it when they made the game. It may not have been wise, and it may not have been balanced but they included both. Only they can say what is allowed and what is valid and they aren't around anymore, god bless their festering corpse.

That is all.

HerselfTheElf
September 16th, 2012, 13:14
That comment about "Who made you god?" just shows you know nothing about DK2 MP meta. It was agreed upon by pretty much every decent player that it was gamebreaking and pointless to use because every game would revolve around the temple.

MeinCookie
September 16th, 2012, 14:31
Different people play by different rules. Is every decent player here? No? What is a 'decent' player may I ask? You're definition of decent player seems quite self-serving by context - 'everyone who agrees with the ruleset I enforce is a decent player.' Nice.

DK2 has been out for a good 13 years and the only way to get a game going for most of that is to arrange it. Strictly that means small reference pools. That comment is plainly flawed. You don't have a clue - you can't have a clue - how most people play, or have played, and by what rules over the nigh decade-and-a-half since the game was released. That is common sense.

You assume everyone plays like you. That is not something that can be assumed. It is just labelling any tactic that you don't like as 'invalid.'

Furthermore, as soon as you start enforcing outside rules on a game you can't make statements about how effective units are. You don't like vampires or their mechanics, and so you don't use them and think they suck and are useless - worthless even - when quite clearly they are the most powerful creature in game. Suddenly it's 'abuse', but it doesn't change the facts that it isn't useless and is in fact very powerful. The base game is what matters here - with all the mechanics and exploits it came with. Arguably meta rules in whatever multiplayer circles you have played in are totally irrelevant.

I'm not a very competative player myself which is a fact I'm glad of; between broken multiplayer and flawed balancing across the board in everything from unit stun to traps it is impossible to ever have a truly competative and balanced game even if you do try to enforce meta rules. I go up against others for a relaxed game every now and then, but anything more is pointless.

HerselfTheElf
September 16th, 2012, 15:15
Don't "like" Vampires? I love Vampires, they just suck in DK2. You can't beat a decent player by using vamps over BK's. And notice how I said "pretty much". That's not everyone, although it was very rare to see someone disagree. In fact, it was never mentioned in the games I played. It was very common knowledge that the temple was broken and people played accordingly. It was very rare to see someone with millions of dwarves and lets just say nobody was too happy about that. People didn't just say "remember guys no temple abuse" before every game, it was that common.

I don't like elites, I don't like BK spam. Yet I can't say those are "invalid" because everyone plays like that, and trying to make everyone change the way they play is futile.

And Vampires are not very powerful because there are better sacrifices instead. The fact that you need to abuse a broken mechanic to make them usable just says enough about how bad they are. Building a pit and spamming BK's is just twice as fast and by the time you beat the portal limit by slapping gobbo's the enemy is already digging out your dungeon.

And how does a "relaxed" game justify abusing game mechanics? If you are so mellow in your MP approach, the last you would want is a tactic being available that makes it impossible for you to win unless you use the exact same tactic. The last thing I would want to do in a relaxing game is manage 50 Vampires.

Mothrayas
September 16th, 2012, 16:55
Don't "like" Vampires? I love Vampires, they just suck in DK2. You can't beat a decent player by using vamps over BK's. And notice how I said "pretty much". That's not everyone, although it was very rare to see someone disagree. In fact, it was never mentioned in the games I played. It was very common knowledge that the temple was broken and people played accordingly. It was very rare to see someone with millions of dwarves and lets just say nobody was too happy about that. People didn't just say "remember guys no temple abuse" before every game, it was that common.

I don't like elites, I don't like BK spam. Yet I can't say those are "invalid" because everyone plays like that, and trying to make everyone change the way they play is futile.

Again with this "everyone", "people", "common knowledge", "nobody", etc.

You clearly missed the point of MeinCookie's post. You have no idea about what all of the DK community thinks or does. You only have your limited reference pool, consisting of yourself and your buddies who you played with. As Cookie said, you can't have a clue about how most people play the game.


And how does a "relaxed" game justify abusing game mechanics? If you are so mellow in your MP approach, the last you would want is a tactic being available that makes it impossible for you to win unless you use the exact same tactic. The last thing I would want to do in a relaxing game is manage 50 Vampires.

Again, spectacularly missing the point. When you don't play competitively, but rather play it relaxed and mellow, you don't necessarily care about tactics that make it impossible for one to win. A relaxing game doesn't necessitate requiring to manage 50 vampires. Quite the opposite, actually.

Relaxed players don't apply the competitive mindset to do what they win using any tools and exploits possible. That's simply competitive play without meta-rules. Those are very different things.