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Hades
January 8th, 2014, 00:47
Split from this thread (http://keeperklan.com/threads/3938-Revised-campaign-idea).

Anyway, my point was that if I did Dungeon Keeper from the start, I'd have gotten a band like Megadeth, Pantera or Slayer to do the music for Dungeon Keeper, if I couldn't get the rights to their songs (plagiarising them like Doom did wasn't an option.)

Let's face it, the original music wasn't very fitting considering that it was just four pieces (one every four levels) that were looped in the background, and didn't really fit the mood. Whenever I played Dungeon Keeper while listening to metal such as the Aforementioned bands or Lamb of God, It actually complimented the mood a lot more than the original soundtrack did.

I mean compare "Ghostly Waterways" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NymAT_-JZAc):

To Bad Omen by Megadeth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHcPNr7Ifq0)

Which gives you a stronger feeling that a Dungeon Keeper is present?

\m/:horny:\m/

Shonji
January 8th, 2014, 05:09
I think the music should stay the same, the point of the music was to be ominious (Yes i probably spelt that wrong) or dark. Just because you are playing an evil game doesn't mean it has to be some type of metal music. Personally I would never play DK 1 or 2 if it had metal music as i hate that kind of music, and it doesn't suite the game in my opinion. Give me varying levels of battle music on how intense the battle is and something calm yet slightly disturbing while I build up and I am happy.

I think the problem is most people think evil, demonic concepts or ideas mix with metal music, when they in-fact don't very often. Since most times demonic music is usually a polar opposite of holy music, church music in a ways. Which is often represented in choirs and orchestras that give a powerful, but good and calming and generally positive feel to them. Demonic does the same but gives a sense of powerful, greed, fear, disturbing, negative traits. I personally think hearing the screams of creatures as well as a forboding music that makes it sound like all hell(literally) is about to break loose over someone bashing their face against a guitar or screaming(which it often sounds to me)

I think I remember Skarok saying similar in the thread your splitting from. It wouldn't be worth it to the few fans that would like it vs the majority that like the music as is(like me).

That said, I wouldn't keep that from remaking DK if that is what you so choose, but I would highly suggest either having the music as a seperate, optional choice vs the normal music, or just still to having a playlist on youtube and listen to it while you play.

Also I doubt you have to worry too too much about rights, as long as you don't make money off it, you are pretty much always in the clear.




Also wanted to say, how could someone NOT long a song like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNAU-ccQBE4
The Horny Battle theme is godly.
Or this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKa-wFE12DA
The intro or Horned Reaper theme is just totally badass. Yes it is a bit metal, but it matched Horny, and only Horny perfectly. Just hearing this in the intro without watching the video I knew shit was going to go down.

I would also say that yes DK1 was a bit weak in music, but DK2 made up for it.

Metal Gear Rex
January 8th, 2014, 07:52
I find it hilarious how far you've taken this. I noticed you mentioning Slayer for quite some time and expressing your liking of it in various threads, but then when you're challenged on the idea of using it for DK, this thread pops up. It's a bit ridiculous actually.


Anyway, my point was that if I did Dungeon Keeper from the start, I'd have gotten a band like Megadeth, Pantera or Slayer to do the music for Dungeon Keeper, if I couldn't get the rights to their songs (plagiarising them like Doom did wasn't an option.)

If I did Dungeon Keeper from the start, I'd probably use music similar to what already existed in DK1 or DKII. I'm sure Shonji, Skarok, DragonsLover, etc would all have their own thoughts on the matter. It's what we think is best for the project.

My point being that everyone has their own different opinion on what would be best. A lot of it depends on where you really want to take the project. This is why I really don't like any DK project idea that claims to be better than the original or in some cases, claims to be the perfect DK game. I mentioned it in this thread (http://keeperklan.com/threads/3424-An-idea-for-a-Dungeon-Keeper-game) before. It basically comes down to there being no better version of the game than the original as its essentially subjective, there's only one guy's ideal Dungeon Keeper game and that might not be the same as another's ideal. How good of a game it could be considered is another factor entirely.


Let's face it, the original music wasn't very fitting considering that it was just four pieces (one every four levels) that were looped in the background, and didn't really fit the mood. Whenever I played Dungeon Keeper while listening to metal such as the Aforementioned bands or Lamb of God, It actually complimented the mood a lot more than the original soundtrack did.

That's your opinion. Stop trying to push it on others like some kind of fact. It's kind of annoying actually.

I've been ignoring these comments you've been making up until now because they were just some idle comments that didn't really deserve discussion. But since you're now taking it to its own thread, now is the time I speak out against it because I think you're taking it to a more ridiculous level as I've said before. Nothing's wrong with creating a thread for discussion, but the reason you're creating it is because you had your opinion challenged in one of the many times you've mentioned it in various other threads, and you're not exactly coming in with an open mind or a legit question you're trying to ask. It's pretty obvious you're merely seeking to continue stating your opinion as fact.


I mean compare "Ghostly Waterways" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NymAT_-JZAc):

To Bad Omen by Megadeth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHcPNr7Ifq0)

That Bad Omen song doesn't sound like a song at all, it just sounds god awful. Simply terrible. I can't imagine myself being able to listen to that for even a full minute. If that was the music for Dungeon Keeper 1 and 2, I'd probably just never play the game without turning the music off. If forced to listen to that while playing DK, I'd probably just never play DK. I can't pretend to understand how anyone could possibly listen to it without getting crazy annoyed by what they're listening to. That's how bad this music is.

Does seeing this bother you? Because this is actually quite similar to how you sound whenever you go off on a thread criticizing the original music of DK1 in favor of this. It's all opinion. That music still sounds terrible to me, but that's just me.


Which gives you a stronger feeling that a Dungeon Keeper is present?

The original dungeon keeper music was supposed to be more ambient, to better suit the idea of being in a dungeon. It's not meant to be some kind of theme song for Dungeon Keepers, I'd say the opening theme was better for that.

I find the original music far more fitting for the atmosphere in general. What you have sounds way too over the top, drawing too much attention to itself, rather than being that quieter but more atmospheric theme in the background as you're creeping around the dungeon or underworld in general. There is also what Skarok mentioned before.


Ever thought of the notion that a neutral, fitting piece of music is a better marketable choice than something just a marginal group of fans would like? I'd feel horrible to play with that music, but to each their own. It's not like you can't play the music in the background if you want to hear something else aside from the standard game music.

That's all I have to say on the matter and I think what really needs to be said about the subject.

Mothrayas
January 8th, 2014, 08:26
A key factor in music design for video games is that the music has to enhance the game atmosphere. (Game music is actually generally not intended in particular to be played standalone.) Metal music for Dungeon Keeper fails this in two ways.

One, Dungeon Keeper's atmosphere is quiet and gloomy. Dungeons generally don't have a lot of loud noise. Metal music is the exact opposite, lots of loud noise and screaming. This detracts from Dungeon Keeper's dungeon-y atmosphere.

Second, because metal music is very loud and screamy, it doesn't enhance Dungeon Keeper's more quiet atmosphere, it instead overruns it. With metal screaming blaring to your ears, the player won't notice or feel that he is still supposed to be in the quiet, dungeon-y atmosphere. This ruins game design intentions. Game designers want to capture the player into their world (of quiet dungeons) as much as possible. Metal music ruins this idea.

Your personal mileage may vary of course, but overall it would be a bad idea.

Hades
January 8th, 2014, 11:42
@Shonji

1) one overarching problem with the original DK soundtrack is that there's no variety (it's just 4 in-game pieces that are looped over and over again) and doesn't match the situation (C&C had a lot of variety and an in-game jukebox, or GTA and its radio stations).

2) The thing with heavy metal is that it has accumulate a demonic image because of controversial songs like Number of The Beast or the entire discography of Slayer, Testament or Judas Priest. That sort of music would be appropriate for DK and is actually quite diverse because (see point#1 Mothrayas)

@MGR

1) fair enough

2) I didn't want to derail the previous thread.

3) The "Bad Omen" song wouldn't be general mood, agreed, but whenever you are possessing a Horned Reaper, you've got to admit you'd want to put on something at least as heavy as the Horned Reaper theme because you are going on a rampage.

@Mothraya

1) Metal can be quite diverse (for non-combat situations it could be something like South of Heaven (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7rpoZE8X8Y) or The Thing That Should Not Be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pnS_7YsYzM)

2) Dungeon Keeper loses its "quiet and gloomy" nature when you first encounter heroes or rival keepers. Then it becomes a game where you are out to raze everything to the ground murder everyone and their dogs and their cats before creating a pyramid of skulls.

Mothrayas
January 8th, 2014, 16:17
@Mothraya

1) Metal can be quite diverse (for non-combat situations it could be something like South of Heaven (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7rpoZE8X8Y) or The Thing That Should Not Be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pnS_7YsYzM)

Neither of these give me any sense of fitting in a quiet Dungeon Keeper situation. They also don't give me any sense of diversity compared to other metal I've heard. Just sounds like more of the same.


2) Dungeon Keeper loses its "quiet and gloomy" nature when you first encounter heroes or rival keepers. Then it becomes a game where you are out to raze everything to the ground murder everyone and their dogs and their cats before creating a pyramid of skulls.

Admittedly true to an extent, the music is somewhat underwhelming for combat situations (depending on the DK1 track, some are more prominent than others). Though overall I see more non-combat time than combat time in DK. Adaptive music in RTS games was uncommon at the time, and it's better to have the music be underwhelmed by the game at certain times than having the game be underwhelmed by the music at other times.

However, that still does not justify metal music at any point in DK. (Again, personal opinion may vary, but judging from the overall response here, still would be a bad idea to apply overall).

Hades
January 8th, 2014, 17:26
1) I always thought that those tracks gave a bit of a gloomy feel to the situation, as they weren't anywhere near as fast as Bad Omen and had a sense of foreboding and mystery to them.

2) I'd have gone for something like C&C's system, where the soundtrack was on a jukebox system (i.e. you could change the track for combat/non-combat/whatever situation.)

Noanechu
January 8th, 2014, 20:49
Although I also listen to metal I don´t want it in a game like DK. It wouldn´t fit the atmosphere. The intro music fits good as this but it wouldn´t fit as in-game music. That DK has no battle music is also something I like as it often annoys me in games that have this feature. The only games where metal really fits are IMHO racing games like Carmageddon(which has a metal OST) and FPS shooters. But that are totally different genres. For me the DK1 music fits perfect although more tracks would be nice.


The intro or Horned Reaper theme is just totally badass. Yes it is a bit metal, but it matched Horny, and only Horny perfectly.

Well, that´s your opinion. But "badass" would only fit for DK2 Horny and IMO DK2 lacked the atmosphere of DK1, also because of that, it was all more like a parody while DK1 more felt like a serious game with mysterious atmosphere. DK 1 Horny is pure evil killermachine and that´s the way it should be IMHO. The DK 2 Horny character is more like a mix between Duke Nukem and Hellboy but doesn´t look really "evil".

If someone wants to listen to metal when playing Dungeon Keeper or other games, then play it beside. My opinion. Game music shouldn´t be too obtrusive, more a support for atmosphere.

Hapuga
January 8th, 2014, 21:47
Metal completely unfits DK1/2 Theme. DK needs ambient/dark ambient/industrial/rock music. I say this as a metal fan, btw. No, Megadeth is a horrible pick for DK. Megadeth is for Duke Nukem, Serious Sam, Postal, Carmaggedon. It has a completely different feel to it, a completely different type of "angry". Same goes for almost any other type of metal. I would say that even rock does not fit DK.

Also, agreeing here with MGR, it's a bit annoying how you try and force your opinion on music. Be more neutral.

DragonsLover
January 8th, 2014, 22:49
I'm mostly with the others. I way prefer the dark ambient soundtrack of the game rather than having a dark metallic beat and loud shouts that would break our ears. I'd love to hear more ambient tracks. Those of KeepShow weren't bad, but lacked of something.

Something that could be neat would be to have some kind of jingle with a beat where a strong battle is engaged. Something short which would add a punch to the fights, a bit like DK2 but not quite the same. I don't know if you know what I mean.

Anyway, there's nothing that prevent you to put your own CD of Megadeth or any other heavy metal CD in your drive and listen to that music during the game. When custom mp3 tracks would be supported, then you could surely put these tracks in your own campaign.

Shonji
January 8th, 2014, 23:12
Is OP still pushing this? It is starting to sound like what your saying is fact and trying to force it down our throats, like our opinions are wrong.

Seriously dude lay off. Do what Hapuga said and be more neutral and understand that some people don't agree with you. Neither of us are wrong, but you trying to force it on us is what is wrong.

Make a playlist and listen to music in the background while playing DK, is it really that hard? I do it sometimes when I don't want to listen to the soundtrack of the game. I have listen to things that would NEVER match this game, like the Metal Gear Zeke final battle music which is Japanese Pop, or Live and Learn from Sonic. I like listening to them though, but would never force them on anyone.

The problem with forcing it is
1. You get all our responses and feel like we are against you and feel the need to get defensive by trying to push the idea further and trying to give your opinions as facts, when all we are doing is answering your question with our own opinions, key word, opinions.
2. Maybe a lot of us just don't like Metal? If you did go ahead and made that remake and forced us to listen to that music. I wouldn't even download it. Hence why I said before that make such optional.
3. It makes you sound immature since you are trying to push your idea as being correct and we should all agree with you, and explain why your thoughts are better than ours. This is what it is starting to sound like to me when you keep pushing this when it is honestly something extremely trivial.

Not trying to bash on you OP but seriously, just listen to a CD or Youtube while you play.

_David_R
January 11th, 2014, 00:32
Tbh, the origional soundtrack is subtle, atmospheric, most of all fitting and effective. Megadeath is just cheesy as hell, rather than making me think of something dark it just makes me think of a big fat sweaty guy with greasy hair in a mosh pit