PDA

View Full Version : Campaign - New game plus



YourMaster
November 14th, 2014, 17:16
I've made a campaign: "A Dungeon Keeper - New Game+ (https://keeperklan.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=107)". It is the original bullfrog campaign, tweaked for for experienced players.

The levels have received minor tweaks to make them interesting again. A slight increase in difficulty, but still below that of "The Deeper Dungeons".
Requires KeeperFX nightly build (http://keeper.lubiki.pl/html/dk_keeperfx_nightly.php) 1466 or newer. People using the full version (http://keeper.lubiki.pl/html/dk_keeperfx_dwnld.php) should use 0.4.6 or newer. This because it uses the new keeperfx script commands.

What's different from the original campaign:

• Tutorial levels streamlined for experienced players: Faster, no tutorial messages.
• Additional hero’s added in first few levels. Not to increase difficulty, but to at least include a fight.
• Boosted all rival keepers with the best AI, a dungeon to start out with and a prison. This to compensate for the lack of a brain.
• Transfer creature special is no longer ‘easy mode’. The first 7 levels assume you transfer a creature when available; the other levels have the transfer special removed or only accessible by earning it.
• The two secret levels with the ‘Rogue Imps’ now truly have Rogue imps. It will take a skilled player to get complete them, and the reward is reduced.
• Small tweaks to the levels to prevent the player cheesing through. Starting on level 7, expect to be challenged.
• In level 16 and 18 the player is rewarded for taking the second portal.

To install extract the archive to your KeeperFX installation directory.

-----------------------------------

I've played through it myself a few times, and I'd love to hear feedback: Not just on what you like or dislike, but also if the levels seem to play out like they should. Keepers act out differently every time, and I can only play-test so much.
I will update the file when people have issues.

Personally I was surprised how enjoyable some of the levels became with some minor modifications. It almost seems like the original map designers where told the keeper AI would improve before release, but it never did. Giving them a head start makes a world of difference.

UnknownMaster21
November 14th, 2014, 18:55
Going to try it immediately!

EDIT: Wait, wut? 0.4.6?

EDIT: Nvm, I did misread lol. Anyway, going for it --->

Woudo
November 15th, 2014, 04:35
You are the devil. I was just dabbling with the idea for a New Game+ and even made a few of the levels for it.

Guess i'll have to name it to something else.

YourMaster
November 15th, 2014, 09:50
Or we could lay them side by side, and integrate the two based on which levels are best.

Woudo
November 15th, 2014, 16:06
Wouldn't work at all. You said yourself you made few but significant changes which is probably the opposite of what I intended. As long as it was recognizeable at a glance and the core gameplay played like the original map, it was okay.
Either way, i've only done three maps and one of them is from deeper dungeons so for this conversation, it doesn't count. It's not like I was a map or two away from completion. Why'd you decide to do it? For me, it was because it's so much easier to work when you have a template of sorts to go on. Creating a new map is hard because, even though I know how I want the level to play and I can visualize it to an extent, I can't translate it into something I actually like in the editor. It makes finishing campaigns quite difficult; it's so much easier to open up an already made map and then cut it, chop it, dissect it and stitch new parts on until there is a functioning frankenstein of a map. The issue is, the map that pops out might not necessarily be one that fits into any of the campaigns i'm working on.

Here's my chopped version of Belbata. It's in the finished folder but I don't think i've actually fully finished it so if you get around to playing it and see some misaligned traps or whatever, do tell. Wouldn't be surprised if it still had the reveal map special at the heart.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/ggech4743txt700/Teltaba.rar
I'll give your campaign a go tomorrow morning. If what you say is true, I shouldn't be able to blaze through it in a few hours like every man and his dog can do with the default campaign.

YourMaster
November 15th, 2014, 16:25
I did it not because I wanted to make maps, but because I like playing the original campaign. However, whenever I play the campaign, there are things that frustrate me,... level 1 for example you get 101 silly messages, level 2 you get a training room and plenty of creatures and yet you still face only one lvl 1 knight. Further on, every level can be easily won by just the level 10 Mistress you can transfer indefinitely, even if you don't claim a portal. Then there are also levels where you have to face a keeper and he doesn't do anything (this was even worse on release day with the original AI)

So those are the changes I made. It is still the same basic campaign, and I you can still blaze through in a few hours (the first few levels should go even faster then they used to). Like mentioned, I have not tried to increase the difficulty, it is still below deeper dungeons difficulty. For example the party that now spawns in level 2 consists of 7 low level creatures and comes a lot sooner, but can still be defeated no problem with the creatures you have if you claim the portal and train properly.

It is possible to finish the entire campaign without dying once. I did die a few times however, simply by being overconfident and not expecting to be attacked by the rival keeper just yet.

Edit:

I've played Teltaba, and I enjoyed it. It played nothing like Belbata.

Hades
November 15th, 2014, 20:43
I'm working on a revised campaign, and the difficulty is cranked up (stronger heroes, exploits being closed, enemy keepers getting prefabbed bases.

YourMaster
November 16th, 2014, 10:17
Update:
I made a dumb mistake on level 15 and 16. The transfer creature specials are behind a wall and should only become available on a special condition. However, you can research the destroy_walls spell in these levels. I've fixed this. Please redownload ('https://keeperklan.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=107') the file.


I'm working on a revised campaign, and the difficulty is cranked up (stronger heroes, exploits being closed, enemy keepers getting prefabbed bases.

Yes, I assumed I would not be the only one with this idea.

Krizzie
November 19th, 2014, 19:29
I've started this campaign and it got me a few times already (the AI on level 8 is pretty fast with expanding if you don't intervene fast enough)

I just finished level 9, but I fail to see how to obtain the Transfer creature special, you've blocked it off with a hero wall and there's no destroy walls spell to be found? Is it the point to play the secret level and transfer a creature from there?

darkkingkongman
November 19th, 2014, 21:18
Only just started this Campaign. Managed to do level one and two, and after taking a look at the scripts the AI is set to the hardest difficulty. Something to look forward to. Nice!

YourMaster
November 19th, 2014, 21:29
I've started this campaign and it got me a few times already (the AI on level 8 is pretty fast with expanding if you don't intervene fast enough)

I just finished level 9, but I fail to see how to obtain the Transfer creature special, you've blocked it off with a hero wall and there's no destroy walls spell to be found? Is it the point to play the secret level and transfer a creature from there?
You should be able to win all the levels without a transfer creature or secret level creature, the levels are mostly designed for that (the first few waves tend to be low-level creatures, which are no match for a level 10 Mistress/Vampire/Knight). You are free to try to do get the transfer special to help you in the next level, but that will make the current one more difficult. To get the transfer special in level 9, you have to meet the special conditions of this level, at which point a tunneler will spawn and dig out the special.

What condition it is in level 9 is a secret, but if you must know I could spoil the secret:
Convert all the heroes that aid the wizards

Are you having fun so far?


Only just started this Campaign. Managed to do level one and two, and after taking a look at the scripts the AI is set to the hardest difficulty. Something to look forward to. Nice!

Try not to look at the scripts too much, you'll spoil some of it for yourself. Let me know what you think after you've completed the first 9 or 10 levels, the first 5 are basically unchanged but with the tutorial messages removed.

Woudo
November 20th, 2014, 13:47
On level 9, you need to shrink action point 1 using the -/+ keys. The tunneler doesn't always spawn on the inside.

YourMaster
November 20th, 2014, 15:58
On level 9, you need to shrink action point 1 using the -/+ keys. The tunneler doesn't always spawn on the inside.

Thanks for the feedback! This will be included in the next update. It used to be a hero gate, but for testing I had made it an action point I could trigger from the outside. I will turn it back into a Hero gate.

Edit: Done. ('https://keeperklan.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=107')

Krizzie
November 20th, 2014, 18:57
The spoiler didn't work (atleast not here) but I've checked the .txt file.

Nice twist there!

But you might give a hint on that when you start the map. :)

YourMaster
November 20th, 2014, 19:42
The spoiler didn't work (atleast not here) but I've checked the .txt file.

Nice twist there!

But you might give a hint on that when you start the map. :)

The forum is a bit broken, seems like an issue with the SSL - probably has the site running partially on one server and partially on another or something. If you want spoilers to work, and the post buttons, you have to accept the security risk in your browser. For example in firefox click the little shield icon in the address-bar, and then select 'Disable protection on this page'.

I've considered giving hints, but I simply don't speak the 20 languages required to do so,... I'm only using texts already part of the game. Also, I basically want you to play it without the transfer creatures mostly. If the scripts weren't accessible to everybody I would have kept the transfer-conditions a secret, and people would eventually find out themselves with enough play, because they aren't that convoluted. It would be a nice and special bonus when you would get it, instead of a regular and expected occurrence.
On some of the maps I give a little hint when you lose the ability to get the transfer special, but not on this one. There you can try remember it for your second play-through.

I like attempting to get the transfer special on level 14, makes the level really challenging.

Woudo
November 20th, 2014, 23:59
You are the devil. Level 9 could've been blazed through but instead I had to sit there and make sure none of them ghost. There's always that one Hero that takes 8+ minutes and 25k in healing fees to convert.

I didn't even use the transfer special in the end.

YourMaster
November 21st, 2014, 00:38
You are the devil. Level 9 could've been blazed through but instead I had to sit there and make sure none of them ghost. There's always that one Hero that takes 8+ minutes and 25k in healing fees to convert.

I didn't even use the transfer special in the end.

Glad you're having fun:). You don't have to go for the specials of course! Good luck on level 10.

Woudo
November 21st, 2014, 03:41
I somehow skipped level 10, or at least I think so.
According to the script, map 10 is that lava map where the player and a keeper start on separate dirt banks. I went from map9; the map with the golden question marks, straight to map11; the wave defense map.

I did do a secret level inbetween, do you think that'd be why?

YourMaster
November 21st, 2014, 10:02
Yes, I certainly think so: https://code.google.com/p/keeperfx/issues/detail?id=420

This is not an issue with the campaign, but with the game. Which version are you using, because if it is the latest, the above issue is not fixed correctly?

To play the level you missed, run the game with the '-alex' command line option, and on the world-map press Ctrl+F9.

Krizzie
November 21st, 2014, 17:07
Getting the special on level 14 would be very tricky indeed, or you could be lucky and the AI gets it for you. ;)

YourMaster
November 21st, 2014, 18:08
Getting the special on level 14 would be very tricky indeed, or you could be lucky and the AI gets it for you. ;)

You mean level 15? Level 14 is the one with all the gold in the middle.

Krizzie
November 21st, 2014, 18:36
Yes, with the two keepers on the sides.

If you want the special you need the bridge, but if you don't have that anymore (because you went the easy route of winning :P ) then the AI might build one for you. ;)

YourMaster
November 21st, 2014, 19:30
That one's easy - the one in level 15 it is a lot more difficult - because level 16 has the early duplicate creature special.

Question: Did you understand the condition from playing the level, or did you check the script?

Krizzie
November 21st, 2014, 21:30
At 14 I got it when I reached a certain area and my bridge went missing. So if you really want to transfer a creature prepare for a big battle all level long.

In the end transferring a creature was not necessary cause with 50 level 10 vampires and one suicidal keeper (Green, this time.. Thought that blue was scripted to die?) level 15 was a walk in the park.

I didn't bother with finding out how to get the special at level 15.


Level 16 will be interesting I guess. (Haven't started that yet)

Krizzie
November 25th, 2014, 19:46
I didn't really notice much difference from level 16 and on.

The AI in level 16 killed itself over the traps that were there from the start, my Horny's were level 5 when he attacked the doors. His (level 10) orcs walked into the boulder trap and he didn't have much strong creatures left except the vampire (at level 7) which was no match for 2 horny's.
Getting the transfer special is kinda hard though. Not sure if you can get it if blue suicides himself so soon.

Level 17 went a lot faster, but wasn't that much harder (without a transfered creature)

Level 18 felt unchanged for me, it's still pretty easy to win without claiming a portal.

Level 19 didn't feel that different either except for a moved special box.

Level 20 was a walk in the park, blue only had 2 vamps and didn't get any more than that..

YourMaster
November 25th, 2014, 20:15
Thanks for the feedback! Did you try the two imp-killing-secret levels? Overall, did you enjoy it, and would you sooner play this one again or the original campaign?

The last few levels I didn't change too much on, true, as I felt they are already quite ok on the difficulty front.

16 - That shouldn't happen of course, I feel the main challenge on this level are the heroes and they come sooner. If blue kills himself that won't matter. I think I'll update to remove some of the traps, that probably makes a big difference.

17 - Big difference next to the no transfer creature being no early access to prison. Did you find it an enjoyable level like this, or too boring?

18 - Very little changes here yes. I think 18 is already quite reasonable in difficulty, especially early on. Big difference is that the respawn-party now harasses you instead of crowding the heart.

19 - This should actually have some big changes:

You don't start with a level 10 creature anymore
You can't use the temple anymore to create a lot of reapers/orcs
You can't scavenge all the heroes to your side
But most importantly, when you try to mine the gems of the blue keeper, he will attack you. Also, when you mine the gems where to monks are, he will attack the heroes with a delay and transfer them into more skeletons.
How did this play out for you? Which gems did you go to, and how did blue respond?

20 - What do you mean he didn't get anymore? Did he end up with just 2 vampires, or do you mean I didn't boost blue?
It is true, I did very little to level 20 compared to what DragonsLover already did to it. I hope the original is reverted to not needing to kill the blue keeper - as it originally was. And then this one as a boost has you killing blue. I did change some of the ingame messages.

Krizzie
November 26th, 2014, 17:21
Thanks for the feedback! Did you try the two imp-killing-secret levels? Overall, did you enjoy it, and would you sooner play this one again or the original campaign?

The last few levels I didn't change too much on, true, as I felt they are already quite ok on the difficulty front.

I would play this one instead of the original. (if the maps after 15 get a little tougher ;) )


16 - That shouldn't happen of course, I feel the main challenge on this level are the heroes and they come sooner. If blue kills himself that won't matter. I think I'll update to remove some of the traps, that probably makes a big difference.

The hero patrol came at around the same time blue decided to attack me, I easily killed the party with just the Horny's (level 5) and then cleaned up blue who as mentioned weakened himself too much on the traps. I'm not sure if blue's attack gets triggered by something, but maybe that can be delayed or just removed so you have to attack him?

I guess you have to let the hero party take it's course to get the transfer box? (If blue doesn't interfere)


17 - Big difference next to the no transfer creature being no early access to prison. Did you find it an enjoyable level like this, or too boring?

I've never used the prison (or skeletons for that matter) on this map, I open the map up as soon as possible so that I can kill the hero parties before they even start digging.

The multiply creatures box could be removed for some more challenge but even without it you can win the map.

When I first played it as a kid I was stuck for days, because I kept turteling and let all the heroes spawn before I'd attack (and lost most of the time) Killing them one party at a time is much easier.


18 - Very little changes here yes. I think 18 is already quite reasonable in difficulty, especially early on. Big difference is that the respawn-party now harasses you instead of crowding the heart.

The start is quite challenging indeed, but after that it's very easy.

Removing the boulder trap and magic door would make things a lot more difficult, cause you can't kill the heroes that easily then.


19 - This should actually have some big changes:

You don't start with a level 10 creature anymore
You can't use the temple anymore to create a lot of reapers/orcs
You can't scavenge all the heroes to your side
But most importantly, when you try to mine the gems of the blue keeper, he will attack you. Also, when you mine the gems where to monks are, he will attack the heroes with a delay and transfer them into more skeletons.
How did this play out for you? Which gems did you go to, and how did blue respond?

-Which level 10 creature do you start with? There was a level 4 vampire in the library, but I didn't even miss that haha, now I think of it I noticed it wasn't there. :P

-I made 2 reapers out of the temple to kill and convert the heroes to the east to reach the gems. So I guess something went wrong here?
I've never seen Orcs come out of the portal on this map and I'm not aware of a temple recipe to get them? (maybe added later in KFX?)

-I've never used the scavenger room cause of gold shortage, so didn't really miss it. Blue's scavenger room was a bit useless though, cause he gets creatures I don't get (except if you go for skeletons out of the heroes)

-Normally I would've gone for blue's gems and starve him to death, but I did some scouting with the Sight Spell to notice just in time that that wasn't a smart idea to do. So I walled him in (to stop him from workshop spamming and not to bother me while I was killing white and training up)
Then I easily overrun him with the converted heroes and some vampires I made.

Some Ideas:

Remove the Thiefs from the map or remove the option to turn them into knights.
Give blue vampires instead of warlocks (5 or 6 or so, not too much)



20 - What do you mean he didn't get anymore? Did he end up with just 2 vampires, or do you mean I didn't boost blue?
It is true, I did very little to level 20 compared to what DragonsLover already did to it. I hope the original is reverted to not needing to kill the blue keeper - as it originally was. And then this one as a boost has you killing blue. I did change some of the ingame messages.

He had 2 level 10 vamps when I attacked him and he got some more cause of the deaths that happened while fighting. But they stayed low level or died instantly cause of the ongoing fight. He didn't scavenge them like he used to do. (no vamps in the creature pool?)

I had to kill blue first before the hero invasion came. (which was kinda easy to kill with 2 level 10 reapers and some smartly placed traps) The Avatar died instantly (both times) even with imprison on (that should go out imo, but that's another discussion)

YourMaster
November 26th, 2014, 23:04
[LEVEL 16]

The hero patrol came at around the same time blue decided to attack me, I easily killed the party with just the Horny's (level 5) and then cleaned up blue who as mentioned weakened himself too much on the traps. I'm not sure if blue's attack gets triggered by something, but maybe that can be delayed or just removed so you have to attack him?

I guess you have to let the hero party take it's course to get the transfer box? (If blue doesn't interfere)


In this level there are some really strong hero parties after a while (level 9 samurai, level 8 Wizard, Level 8 Barbarian, Level 7 Giant), which spawns up to 3 times, and sooner then it the original campaign. That should be enough to give two low level horny's a run for for their money, but not if Blue dies before they spawn of course. I see about helping out blue a bit, so the level won't end too soon.

The transfer special you can earn some other way: Kill blue without letting a single of your creatures get annoyed


[LEVEL 17]
I've never used the prison (or skeletons for that matter) on this map, I open the map up as soon as possible so that I can kill the hero parties before they even start digging.

The multiply creatures box could be removed for some more challenge but even without it you can win the map.

When I first played it as a kid I was stuck for days, because I kept turteling and let all the heroes spawn before I'd attack (and lost most of the time) Killing them one party at a time is much easier.
Yes, that is now the way to beat the level, you have to take initiative to win. In the original you can sit back a lot more, and your transferred creature could mop up everything alone letting the other creatures train unhindered.
I'll like to hear from other people on this as well, if other people are now a lot more challenged you can just give yourself a compliment for being really good and I'll keep it like this, but if other people have similar experiences I'll up the difficulty a bit.


[LEVEL 18]
The start is quite challenging indeed, but after that it's very easy.

Removing the boulder trap and magic door would make things a lot more difficult, cause you can't kill the heroes that easily then.

I see,... I'll look into the endgame on this map.


[LEVEL 19]
-Which level 10 creature do you start with? There was a level 4 vampire in the library, but I didn't even miss that haha, now I think of it I noticed it wasn't there. :P

-I made 2 reapers out of the temple to kill and convert the heroes to the east to reach the gems. So I guess something went wrong here?
I've never seen Orcs come out of the portal on this map and I'm not aware of a temple recipe to get them? (maybe added later in KFX?)

-I've never used the scavenger room cause of gold shortage, so didn't really miss it. Blue's scavenger room was a bit useless though, cause he gets creatures I don't get (except if you go for skeletons out of the heroes)

-Normally I would've gone for blue's gems and starve him to death, but I did some scouting with the Sight Spell to notice just in time that that wasn't a smart idea to do. So I walled him in (to stop him from workshop spamming and not to bother me while I was killing white and training up)
Then I easily overrun him with the converted heroes and some vampires I made.

Some Ideas:

Remove the Thiefs from the map or remove the option to turn them into knights.
Give blue vampires instead of warlocks (5 or 6 or so, not too much)


Normally you would start with a level 10 creature from one of the two secret levels. A level 10 Vampire/Mistress or Hellhound. That alone was enough to get you to the gems right away. You may have noticed those secret levels have undergone some big changes,...
In KFX two trolls transform into one orc, and as you have trolls from the portal in 19, you can have as many level 2 orcs as you like(until portal limit). I changed this that once you have more than 2 orcs, you won't get any trolls anymore. If you get a single horny, you can't get any more bile demons, so no more horny's either. You can get 2 horny's, if you sacrifice the bile demon first, wait for a second one to spawn, before sacrificing the mistress/troll. A third one would be impossible.

You walling him in was the right thing to do, or he would have moved out and take the heroes for himself. I did disable the workshop-spam on this level and caused him to train up faster.

You seem like a patient player,... I would never train up my vampires to level 10, nor my thieves to knights because I would get bored and attack long before that time.

I don't want blue to have vampires on this level for two reasons:
- He would scavenge your vampire
- Level 20 has a rival keeper with vampires.

I'll take your feedback on this level on board - to see how to make the final fight a bit more interesting. I'd love to hear the experiences of some others as well,... to see if you just got lucky or if nobody got bothered by blue.


[LEVEL 20]
He had 2 level 10 vamps when I attacked him and he got some more cause of the deaths that happened while fighting. But they stayed low level or died instantly cause of the ongoing fight. He didn't scavenge them like he used to do. (no vamps in the creature pool?)

I had to kill blue first before the hero invasion came. (which was kinda easy to kill with 2 level 10 reapers and some smartly placed traps) The Avatar died instantly (both times) even with imprison on (that should go out imo, but that's another discussion)

I double checked,... I made no changes to blue in level 20 at all. Same pool, same availability, everything. So I don't know why he only had two vamps, but I recently discussed (https://keeperklan.com/threads/4847-Skybird-Trill) level 20 of the original campaign on this board where somebody also mentioned blue hardly having any vampires. I then played it, and blue attacked really soon before I even dug out of my dungeon, so that level ended quickly.
So I'm not sure it has anything to do with what I did,... perhaps simply changes to the game made this happen.

What do you mean the avatar dying instantly, do you mean when he got transported to the prison? If that happened twice, I made a scripting error. Or did he die during the fight? If so, then that would be dragon fire or bile demon gas. Those things kill even with imprisonment on.

Krizzie
November 27th, 2014, 09:10
In this level there are some really strong hero parties after a while (level 9 samurai, level 8 Wizard, Level 8 Barbarian, Level 7 Giant), which spawns up to 3 times, and sooner then it the original campaign. That should be enough to give two low level horny's a run for for their money, but not if Blue dies before they spawn of course. I see about helping out blue a bit, so the level won't end too soon.

The transfer special you can earn some other way: Kill blue without letting a single of your creatures get annoyed

From the original campaign I know that the (same) hero party spawned at least 2 times, but I usually cut them of by surrounding the herogate. This time I just waited till they reached my portal and I broke the wall open and dropped both horny's, they easily slaughtered the party. The second and third never came.

I'm not sure if helping blue is the right thing to do, he's strong already. It's that the AI doesn't respond well to traps, which makes it a suicide mission when he attacks. Removing the traps would make it quite hard to beat him I think, especially if the heroes join at around the same time.

From the original campaign I remember that blue reacted different each time I played the map, sometimes he attacked fast, other times he turtled and started digging around me instead of attacking my doors.




Yes, that is now the way to beat the level, you have to take initiative to win. In the original you can sit back a lot more, and your transferred creature could mop up everything alone letting the other creatures train unhindered.
I'll like to hear from other people on this as well, if other people are now a lot more challenged you can just give yourself a compliment for being really good and I'll keep it like this, but if other people have similar experiences I'll up the difficulty a bit.

Haha thanks. ;)

In my opinion you can raise the levels or amount of heroes of the parties a little. (just 1 level up should be quite a challenge already I guess)



I see,... I'll look into the endgame on this map.

The hero party that keeps coming until you've claimed the gems, can be made a lot stronger. (it's just an easy way of getting vampires now..)

Btw, did you move that spawning point or was this moved already? I remember that these guys kept spawning at the hearth until the creature limit was reached and the map would crash or became unplayable..



Normally you would start with a level 10 creature from one of the two secret levels. A level 10 Vampire/Mistress or Hellhound. That alone was enough to get you to the gems right away. You may have noticed those secret levels have undergone some big changes,...

I hate the secret levels, so I did not play them. I like to make dungeons, not having timers and being forced to do a specific thing. So I can't give feedback on those. :)

So I didn't know about the level 10 creature. :P


In KFX two trolls transform into one orc, and as you have trolls from the portal in 19, you can have as many level 2 orcs as you like(until portal limit). I changed this that once you have more than 2 orcs, you won't get any trolls anymore. If you get a single horny, you can't get any more bile demons, so no more horny's either. You can get 2 horny's, if you sacrifice the bile demon first, wait for a second one to spawn, before sacrificing the mistress/troll. A third one would be impossible.

You walling him in was the right thing to do, or he would have moved out and take the heroes for himself. I did disable the workshop-spam on this level and caused him to train up faster.

I did not know that recipe, and did I know, I wouldn't have used it, cause low level Orcs aren't that strong.

I guess I was lucky with the reapers, but even with the limit in place, just 1 reaper is enough to clear the gems.

I always wall him in, but in the original campaign I would take his gems and let him dry out. So giving him the gems is a good thing, makes him a little tougher and harder to beat.


You seem like a patient player,... I would never train up my vampires to level 10, nor my thieves to knights because I would get bored and attack long before that time.

Frameskip is the answer here. ;) If I know I'm safe I just raise it to 4 times above normal and creatures will be at level 10 in no time.


I don't want blue to have vampires on this level for two reasons:
- He would scavenge your vampire
- Level 20 has a rival keeper with vampires.

I'll take your feedback on this level on board - to see how to make the final fight a bit more interesting. I'd love to hear the experiences of some others as well,... to see if you just got lucky or if nobody got bothered by blue.

You have a good point, having two keepers of the same kind in a row is a bit repetitive.

But he does need a buff (or the player a nerf) somehow, having 2 reapers, a couple of vamps and knights will make short work of him.



I double checked,... I made no changes to blue in level 20 at all. Same pool, same availability, everything. So I don't know why he only had two vamps, but I recently discussed (https://keeperklan.com/threads/4847-Skybird-Trill) level 20 of the original campaign on this board where somebody also mentioned blue hardly having any vampires. I then played it, and blue attacked really soon before I even dug out of my dungeon, so that level ended quickly.
So I'm not sure it has anything to do with what I did,... perhaps simply changes to the game made this happen.

When the scavenger bug was still present he would get the maximum amount of vampires within seconds. But now he reaches his portal limit faster than he can scavenge the vampire pool. If the player doesn't make a graveyard he doesn't get extra vampires until the fights break out. Which by then it's too late for him to make use of them.


What do you mean the avatar dying instantly, do you mean when he got transported to the prison? If that happened twice, I made a scripting error. Or did he die during the fight? If so, then that would be dragon fire or bile demon gas. Those things kill even with imprisonment on.

I'm not sure what happened exactly cause blue interfered by dropping a lot of creatures when I attacked the Avatar. But his death looked scripted to me. (Also got the message that his body was vanished etc..) The second wave I didn't even saw him alive cause he got slaughtered by my Reapers and vamps before I even noticed the parties had dropped. :P But I was sure I had imprison on at both times. Reapers and vamps don't have gas or flame breath so he couldn't have died from that.

Oh and I didn't get the ending movie when I won the map! :(

YourMaster
November 27th, 2014, 10:37
[LEVEL16]From the original campaign I know that the (same) hero party spawned at least 2 times, but I usually cut them of by surrounding the herogate. This time I just waited till they reached my portal and I broke the wall open and dropped both horny's, they easily slaughtered the party. The second and third never came.

I'm not sure if helping blue is the right thing to do, he's strong already. It's that the AI doesn't respond well to traps, which makes it a suicide mission when he attacks. Removing the traps would make it quite hard to beat him I think, especially if the heroes join at around the same time.

From the original campaign I remember that blue reacted different each time I played the map, sometimes he attacked fast, other times he turtled and started digging around me instead of attacking my doors.

Yes, I'll have to look into this. I can keep a lot of the traps, but for example taking out the boulder trap might help, it is impossible to balance having blue potentially losing up to 10 of his strongest creatures without a fight. I can also tweak the AI and Gold level to keep him from attacking for too long, although him claiming your hallway does leave you open to the hero attack.


[LEVEL18]

The hero party that keeps coming until you've claimed the gems, can be made a lot stronger. (it's just an easy way of getting vampires now..)

Btw, did you move that spawning point or was this moved already? I remember that these guys kept spawning at the hearth until the creature limit was reached and the map would crash or became unplayable..

I moved it. In DragonsLovers patch which is included in the game, the party keeps spawning on the heart and the numbers keep growing till it is just plain silly. No challenge either, because you can still kill everything with a few lightning strikes. I moved the AP, added a hero gate, caused the party to move out and harass the imps mining, and also caused the spawning to stop when you reach the gate. This motivates the player to just attack the heart when he reaches the gems, as the map is basically over at this point.


[LEVEL 19]
I hate the secret levels, so I did not play them. I like to make dungeons, not having timers and being forced to do a specific thing. So I can't give feedback on those. :)
So I didn't know about the level 10 creature. :P

I did not know that recipe, and did I know, I wouldn't have used it, cause low level Orcs aren't that strong.
I guess I was lucky with the reapers, but even with the limit in place, just 1 reaper is enough to clear the gems.
I always wall him in, but in the original campaign I would take his gems and let him dry out. So giving him the gems is a good thing, makes him a little tougher and harder to beat.

Frameskip is the answer here. ;) If I know I'm safe I just raise it to 4 times above normal and creatures will be at level 10 in no time.

You have a good point, having two keepers of the same kind in a row is a bit repetitive.

But he does need a buff (or the player a nerf) somehow, having 2 reapers, a couple of vamps and knights will make short work of him.


Two of the secret imp killing levels are really easy, especially the one where you have to kill all imps but have access to locked rooms and the collapse spell. You can kill them in 20 seconds and have over 4 minutes of time left and get a level 10 creature to transfer. The other imp killing level you can dig out an enemy hound that simply kills all your imps for you, and there are 3 boulders to make it easier. No challenge at all. So anybody who wanted could start every level with a creature strong enough to beat each level alone. This is especially bad for level 19, as the whole challenge here is to do things without trained creatures. In the original campaign that is.

Level 2 orcs aren't that strong, but 6 level 2 orcs are still a whole lot stronger then 6 level 1 trolls. And strong enough to take out many of the heroes up until the gems.

This level simply is a strange level. To me it is more about managing to build up an army without a training room, strong enough to take the fortress then it is about the rival keeper. This is now too easy, but this is very hard to make more difficult, as removing heroes will make reaching the gems really easy, and adding heroes will end up feeding your torture chamber and making the rest of the level a snooze.

I think I'll try to make walling him in a bit more difficult.



[LEVEL 20]
When the scavenger bug was still present he would get the maximum amount of vampires within seconds. But now he reaches his portal limit faster than he can scavenge the vampire pool. If the player doesn't make a graveyard he doesn't get extra vampires until the fights break out. Which by then it's too late for him to make use of them.

I'm not sure what happened exactly cause blue interfered by dropping a lot of creatures when I attacked the Avatar. But his death looked scripted to me. (Also got the message that his body was vanished etc..) The second wave I didn't even saw him alive cause he got slaughtered by my Reapers and vamps before I even noticed the parties had dropped. :P But I was sure I had imprison on at both times. Reapers and vamps don't have gas or flame breath so he couldn't have died from that.

Oh and I didn't get the ending movie when I won the map! :(

Good point about the scavenging bug! Now that is fixed, the balance of the map is completely different of course. Having a 30-vampire rival or a 2 vampire rival is not quite the same. I'll see about getting blue back into the game.

I really did not script the avatar dying in combat. The message 'his body is vanished' is simply triggered by there being no avatar around. The 'Death' command is triggered when the first avatar is in prison. You should be able to move both avatars to prison, and be able to convert the second one(to win the game).

I'lll look into the ending movie, we want that of course. I know recently there have been some changes to the campaign-files related to the cinematics.

Woudo
November 28th, 2014, 08:38
Keepers in this game have a serious issue with training their creatures. They usually only have a small handful of high level troops and they're the ones that automatically train. Half their creature pool is taken up by low level trolls/biles/locks. They don't react well to traversing lava either. Just convert their bridge when they build it and sell it. Attack over. The end. Everybody go home. We'll try again in five minutes.

If you can find a way around those problems, it'll definitely spike the difficulty of the game a bit.

YourMaster
November 28th, 2014, 11:07
Yes, they don't always have the best trained creatures. However, it is already completely different in KeeperFX from the original game. There only creatures with primary job as training would train, and then only until gold ran out. There you always faced mostly level 1 creatures.
In KeeperFX the AI prioritizes research - and uses all creatures who can for this, including the bile demons and spiders - but afterward will throw his creatures into the training room. When gold runs out he will use the workshop to gain gold until enough to train a bit more. This is of course a slow process. All in all, the result is a lot more trained creatures.
What helps is to give the AI more gold or fewer spells to research, which I have occasionally done.

Are there any particular maps where you found the keepers creatures under leveled?

The bridge thing,... yes, claiming the ai bridge is an overly successful way of dealing with your rival. I don't think there is anything I can do about it, except for completely redesigning levels so that the AI doesn't need to use bridges.

Where there any particular maps which you didn't enjoy because of this issue?

YourMaster
November 29th, 2014, 12:40
Oh and I didn't get the ending movie when I won the map! :(

This was a bug with the game, I reported it and it is now fixed. I also needed to update my file to match. See: issue (https://code.google.com/p/keeperfx/issues/detail?id=436)

I've also updated the last 6 levels to boost the difficulty a bit:

15: When one keeper is almost dead, the other one gets a boost in power
16: More difficult to wall in hero party, boulder trap removed
17: Some levels of heroes raised, additional party spawns at endgame
18: Most of the gems removed
19: Thieves replaced with dwarves, temple moved to be inaccessible
20: Slowed creature generate speed, this increases the advantage of blue's starting vampire.

Download here (https://keeperklan.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=107).

12114_v2
December 13th, 2014, 17:36
may be an obvious question but... i dont see 0.4.6 on the official website? i only see 0.4.5

YourMaster
December 13th, 2014, 17:56
0.4.5 is the latest full release. Work on the next version has been going on for quite some time, and this includes a some new script commands. This campaign already uses them.

So the choices are wait until the 0.4.6 release, or download the latest nightly build (http://keeper.lubiki.pl/html/dk_keeperfx_nightly.php), which has all recent improvements.

YourMaster
July 27th, 2015, 23:10
KeeperFX 0.4.6 has been released, and it contains a bug where computer players do not do anything including mining gold when you don't give them enough gold. I was informed that level 5 in New Game + became unplayable in version 0.4.6 because the blue keeper stopped working there. I reported the bug, but in the meantime I have updated the level to give blue more gold and the level works again.
So please redownload the campaign (https://keeperklan.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=107) if you are on KeeperFX 0.4.6.

If any other levels have problems in 0.4.6 (or beyond) please let me know.

Ecarus
November 2nd, 2015, 22:04
What a dissapointing campaign, i expected more than a challenge, but almost nothing has changed from the original. Im still playing it, so i will only do a review for the 13 levels i have played so far.

Eversmile: Its the first level so there is little to say here. It is faster and the heroes are a bit stronger.
Cosyton: This is for me, the hardest map compared to the original one, the heroes are a lot stronger, and they come faster, the lord of the land literally killed all of my minions, i won because of my imps. No joke it was so funny hahahaha.
Waterdream Warm: Almost no changes, heroes are stronger, but nothing more.
Flower Hat: I just frameskip until i have all my creatures lvl10, so this was easy.
Lushmeadow-on-Down: I transfered a lvl10 demon spawn from Flowerhat, so i cheesed really easy.
Snuggledell: Just wait for blue to end without gold, creatures will soon leave ;) and it they dont you have lvl advantage.
Wishvale: This is the map that really annoyes me. Blue plays so aggresive, but in a bad way. I transfered a lvl10 Mistress from Snuggledell when he started digging out my NW gold, he breached my dungeon when most of his creatures were lvl3, so my mistress killed them easily and blue too. Heroes are a joke. Btw i didnt knew that there was a transfer creature special in this realm.
Tickle: Same as Wishvale, but atleast in this case blue attacked later, so most of my creatures died. How ever it was easy.
Moonbrush Wood: The lack of gems in my side made it a lot harder, i didnt meet the criteria for the transfer creature special because of this. Heroes here are a joke too.
Nevergrim: Same as original except that there is no Transfer creature special. If i wanted to use the transfer creature special from Moonbrush or the secret realm I would cheese here so easy.
Hearth: The lack of Transfer Special in Nevergrim made it a lot harder. Also i liked that you have to get the Transfer Special before final wave or byebye special lol.
Elf's Dance: Another map where i dont feel any change. Also the Transfer Special has no criteria, so you could easily cheese here and use it.
Buffy Oak: Same as Elf's Dance but here you can cheese easier, i transfered a lvl10 Orc from ED. Blue died quickly, green was a little bit harder but as i have numeric advantage he died easily.

YourMaster
November 2nd, 2015, 23:05
Sorry to disappoint, but yes it is supposed to be almost the same as the original campaign. It's not a 'hard version of the original campaign, or a 'new campaign inspired by the original campaign', it IS the original campaign, just a bit streamlined with the tutorial taken out.

Take level 3(waterdream warm) where you say the only change is the heroes are stronger, in fact there are many more changes.
For example in the original you have to build all rooms before you get a library and instructions on how to use it, in NG+ you get it straight away. In the original the level waited with the timers until you had built everything, in NG+ it starts straight away. The original level had 269 lines of script, NG+ has reduced that to 149 lines and this includes 80 setup lines in both files. All that is tutorial stuff taken out. This doesn't make the level difficult, it just makes it less annoying for somebody who has played the game before.

Simply put, play this campaign if you feel like playing the original levels again, not if you're looking for something new.
(I did tweak the two imp-killing bonus levels to play completely different though, be sure to try those)

I am a bit puzzled though about your comment on Elf's Dance and Buffy Oak,... it sounds like you are somehow playing the original campaign again. I ran into a bug before that my game continued from a campaign back to levels from the original campaign, perhaps this affected you too. On NG+ this would be very difficult to notice. On Elf's dance on the original campaign you could just claim the transfer special, in NG+ it is across from lava and when you kill heroes your bridge disappears so you can no longer get it. Did you have to cross lava to get the special on this map? If not, you're now playing the original campaign somehow.

Ecarus
November 2nd, 2015, 23:40
No, i didnt. That explains why i got the tutorial message when i first researched the chicken spell
Well you advertise this campaign as "Original campaign for experienced players with increased difficulty" so i thought it was to be harder.
I tried the imp slapping secret, that is the harder lvl of the campaign hahahaha But for some reason the game crashed to me on this map like 2 times

YourMaster
November 3rd, 2015, 02:24
That's the opposite of what I tried to communicate. I tried to say that yes there's a slight increase in difficulty, but still below deeper dungeons, so not hard, and that the changes I made were not to increase the difficulty. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

And the level isn't supposed to crash and didn't used to. Which version of the game are you playing it with, then I'll also give it a shot and see if it crashes for me.

Edit: I reported the bug here (https://github.com/dkfans/keeperfx/issues/678). Doesn't seem to be confined to just the NG+ campaign.

Ecarus
November 3rd, 2015, 13:19
Dont worry :P

Im playing it with 0.46 with no nighty builds.

YourMaster
November 5th, 2015, 00:03
I tried the imp slapping secret, that is the harder lvl of the campaign hahahaha But for some reason the game crashed to me on this map like 2 times

The bug that caused this level to crash is supposed to be fixed now on the stable branch (http://keeper.lubiki.pl/html/dk_keeperfx_nightly.php). Please let me know if your game still crashes on this level on v0.4.6 r1735 patch or beyond.

pikovich
March 3rd, 2016, 17:48
Well done the Campaign update. Its better for experienced players without monster transfer. But still not challenging enough.


Godd work!

Greetz pikovich

YourMaster
March 3rd, 2016, 18:53
Thank you. Try the imp-killing secret levels.

If I made it even more difficult it would play nothing like the original campaign, and I'd be better off just making totally new levels. I made a few actually, this one (https://keeperklan.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=113) is my favorite and I think the hardest one.

If you want an entire campaign that's difficult, try the undead keeper campaign included in KeeperFX made by Duke Ragereaver, it's well made.

Ogre
September 10th, 2016, 12:11
Heya YourMaster, just found out about the NG+ when i just cleared the campaign with the unoficcal 0.4.6 +½ patch, though lvl 1 has nothing in it, i get defeated instantly and all you can see are like.. purple squares where the assets should be.

EDIT: Found this in the log file which explains it all.

Error: load_level_file: The level "map00001" doesn't exist; creating empty map.
Sync: Created menu ID 1 at slot 0, pos (0,0) size (140,400)
Sync: Created menu ID 2 at slot 1, pos (0,0) size (140,400)
Warning: Map file "map00000.txt" doesn't exist or is too small.

YourMaster
September 10th, 2016, 16:06
You're right, I see the level files are not included with the package. Sorry. I'll reupload the file with the levels included soon, in the meantime you can download the campaign here: https://keeperklan.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=107.

Edit: I've updated the package, in the new version (https://keeperklan.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=121) the campaign should work without any trouble.

Ogre
September 10th, 2016, 18:30
Aye i did, very nice. And goddamn lvl 7 with the enemy keeper rushing you like that, thank the gods for my transffered mistress!

Woudo
September 10th, 2016, 19:57
A simple change from one AI setting to another did that "rush". The original campaign has AI-5; it only builds tiny rooms and because of that, it's very unlikely to expand horizontally enough to discover the tunnels and subsequently claim up a lot of territory. Because it doesn't expand enough, it doesn't "see" a lot of the gold on the map so it doesn't feel the need to slap dicks with the player over the player's gold seams. The end result is it just sits there and jacks off.

kix
August 22nd, 2017, 07:01
Aye i did, very nice. And goddamn lvl 7 with the enemy keeper rushing you like that, thank the gods for my transffered mistress!

Well yeah he rushed but those demons spawns and warlocks didnt stand a chance against my 7 lvl 3s bile demons. It actually made the level go faster as I won under ten minutes. I did not find any transfer special previous round I thought it got removed.


On lvl 8, Tickle AI was much more stronger though. Even with converted barbarians I didnt stand a chance in direct battle. However I used invisibility to steal all his lair that pissed off his orcs and then they disappeared - either left or died idk.

I did not know how to get transfer special in lvl 9 Moonbrush Wood. I did not see any hero tunneler I could imprison and blow through the corner. Checking the script I see I had to convert all heroes. Never mind next level was easy without transfer anyway.

YourMaster
March 17th, 2018, 14:56
Aye i did, very nice. And goddamn lvl 7 with the enemy keeper rushing you like that, thank the gods for my transffered mistress!

I recently replayed the campaign to test some changes to KeeperFX Unofficial, and it caused me to make a few changes to it. I also changed this level, preventing the computer from bridging towards your island until you get off it, and I think it works better. It's a pretty challenging map now, quite fun, with a very limited change. It is included with KeeperFX Unofficial, but I also updated the separate download.

RickyC
September 2nd, 2020, 11:07
I'm on the last level (level 20). It's a mess because, at the beginning, you can hear that the "supposedly imprisoned" Avatar destroys the blue Keeper. Afterwards, the hero waves pop up from hero portals near your base (all level 10 + the second Avatar). Seems like a scripting bug right at the start of the map. You lose in less than 5 minutes.:D

YourMaster
September 2nd, 2020, 15:00
O, great. I'll look into it, thanks.

EDIT: I accidentally left my test-code in. You can replace the file in keeperfx\campgns\origplus with this one to make it work as it used to do: 2062

EDIT2: I updated the 0.4.8 package to make sure this script file is included.

wtx
September 16th, 2020, 09:40
Hey. I think that secret level 2 is bugged... or it is very hard. Is that correct when imps do nothing when Hound is attacking dungeon heart? Also disabled picking up ability is intended?

YourMaster
September 16th, 2020, 13:58
Disabling pickup is intended. Imps should fight the hound though, but only if they are close.

wtx
September 16th, 2020, 14:04
hmm.. the hound runs into dungeon heart with ca. 3 imps and that's it.

Note about Nevegrim.
Quote from wiki:

Surrounding a room with Guard Post Icon Small Guard Posts will maximize its Efficiency. This is something to consider seriously in a realm without walls. Efficiency in a Training Room Icon Small Training Room is quite literal: creatures will train faster for the same amount of money.
It doesn't work for me

YourMaster
September 16th, 2020, 14:42
That guard post bug has long been fixed.

And it's harder to get the imps to fight if you can't pick them up. There's ways to get them there though.
You could mark some walls for digging, causing the imps to go there to dig for example.

wtx
September 17th, 2020, 10:33
Yeah, thanks for reply.
I thought that guard post ability wasn't bug.
As for your spoiler comment, I knew that. I was finding some bugs for unknown reason :/ ok, let's play imp lvl

YourMaster
September 17th, 2020, 11:36
Walls and doors determine rooms, and thus efficiency. Other high slabs like dirt, gold and rock also help. Without it, it would be best to always build your dungeon without interior walls and doors, and just use guard posts. The same bug is also fixed for bridges.

wtx
September 23rd, 2020, 21:07
Ok. I've played imp level (secret 2) and did it once. The reward is dark mistress 4 lvl. Now i've just passed Sleepiburgh (14th) and got bad luck. AI built the bridge to the Resurrect Creature so I needed to do the secret level again. Just after the beggining, all imps die. Cannot do anything.

YourMaster
September 24th, 2020, 00:06
Didn't you get 2 mistresses the first time? In any case, in the latest version of NG+, you only get to transfer each secret unit just once.

wtx
September 25th, 2020, 21:48
Yeah, only one. You should do some kind of guide about differences between OC and NC+ or point me that one or even tell me that i'm to lazy to read :D

YourMaster
September 25th, 2020, 23:39
Strange, I just had a quick look, and I really do get 2 mistresses in that level.
I'm not doing a full write up on all the changes. Mostly because I can't be arsed, but also because it's part of the charm to be get the unexpected surprises.

In general though:
- Tutorial removed
- Made is harder to cheese all levels with a transferred or bonus unit
- Removed some exploits that allowed people to skip playing the original levels.

wtx
October 4th, 2020, 20:58
Thanks for reply.
I'm on 20 level. I have similar bug like quote:

I'm on the last level (level 20). It's a mess because, at the beginning, you can hear that the "supposedly imprisoned" Avatar destroys the blue Keeper. Afterwards, the hero waves pop up from hero portals near your base (all level 10 + the second Avatar). Seems like a scripting bug right at the start of the map. You lose in less than 5 minutes.:D

In my case, heros appear from portals with avatar and walk right to the my dungeon heart. After that they go to blue keeper and kill him.
2073
2074
Dungeon Keeper FX ver 0.4.8.2154. I will try the fix that was made.

YourMaster
October 4th, 2020, 23:12
Yeah, sorry, everybody who downloaded KeeperFX 0.4.8 before 2020-09-02 will have that issue there, unless they download that new text file. It's really that I left my test-code in that spawned the heroes right from the start.

wtx
October 5th, 2020, 20:33
ok, no offense.
I really like your interpretation of Dk campaign. This is my favourite game ever and thanks for you, i felt like playing new game.
I had hated you at 14th and 15th but finally it made me to play those maps very different way. Let's play 20th.

YourMaster
October 5th, 2020, 21:56
Great, happy to hear it.

TasGama
June 19th, 2021, 09:12
I'm on level 9 and i can see a special box surrounded by impenetrable rock. In the normal levels this part of the map is accessible. But i can't see a way through now?

I get that this is supposed to be harder and maybe you aren't supposed to get some of those special boxes but wouldn't be better to remove it completely instead of making it inaccessible? If it's visible it makes me think there's must be a way to get it. Maybe there is?

YourMaster
June 19th, 2021, 14:32
There's secret objectives on how to get them. Pay attention to hints. But the intended way to complete the campaign is without the transfers, so no loss if you miss them.

TasGama
June 23rd, 2021, 14:11
I'm at level 15 and still can't figure out some things.

A lot of magic boxes are hidden behind indestructible rock in many levels. Still can't figure out how to get them.

The secret levels also giving me trouble. For instance, the one where you have to kill your imps have 4 increase level boxes behind a trap. There is no way through other than activating the trap. If the imp triggers it, it dies so you can't get the boxes. If any of the two creatures gets killed (to give enough time for the imp to get the block) all the creatures vanish, including the imp.

So don't know if it's possible to get those. Can't tell if it's just tease.

Is there a guide for those harder versions of the secret levels? All i can find is guides for the normal ones but those are very different. Also a guide on how to get the boxes behind rock? Not that i need them, i'm just curious. I like the harder versions and prefer to play without transfer creatures. But i'd like to know they are tested and possible. And you can get everything, without impossible teasing items.

YourMaster
June 23rd, 2021, 15:51
I'm at level 15 and still can't figure out some things.

A lot of magic boxes are hidden behind indestructible rock in many levels. Still can't figure out how to get them.

The secret levels also giving me trouble. For instance, the one where you have to kill your imps have 4 increase level boxes behind a trap. There is no way through other than activating the trap. If the imp triggers it, it dies so you can't get the boxes. If any of the two creatures gets killed (to give enough time for the imp to get the block) all the creatures vanish, including the imp.

So don't know if it's possible to get those. Can't tell if it's just tease.

Is there a guide for those harder versions of the secret levels? All i can find is guides for the normal ones but those are very different. Also a guide on how to get the boxes behind rock? Not that i need them, i'm just curious. I like the harder versions and prefer to play without transfer creatures. But i'd like to know they are tested and possible. And you can get everything, without impossible teasing items.

Level 14, and most other keeper levels are quite a bit harder in NG+ yes. The secret levels are all possible yes, but it is a puzzle. Are you sure you want them spoiled?

If so, this is the solution to the secret level that's giving you trouble: You need to get rid of the traps with the imps you get at the start. And you can do that by slapping imps across the lava until the traps run out of charges.

NG+ is meant to basically be played without the transfers though, but you can get them. You should notice the special boxes are available at the start of the map, but they might become unavailable at some point if you fail the secret objective. When such a thing happens you will hear a rockslide when rocks make them inaccessible, or see a twinkle when you lose the bridge to get across lava for them. Try to remember what just happened. In almost all cases, the secret objective is directly related to the initial objective message of the map.
For map 15: Don't lose a single creature in battle before killing all heroes

TasGama
June 24th, 2021, 10:35
I actually tried that but it takes too much time to disable them, leaving no time to complete the objective.

Or maybe i'm too slow :P

YourMaster
June 24th, 2021, 10:42
It's hard, but possible. Using low walls helps, or fixed perspective, and middle mouse to flip the camera around to alternate lightning traps.