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Trotim
February 15th, 2010, 16:21
As you all probably know, it's possible to keep any creature from moving from water onto a tile by placing Guard Post tiles on it, effectively blocking them out. Now while some advanced realms require that... I was wondering if that exploit was fixable. It simply wasn't intended by the original developers and doesn't make sense gameplay-wise either.

So can this exploit be fixed, and how? Should it be fixed?

Mothrayas
February 15th, 2010, 16:27
IMO this doesn't need to be fixed.

Krizzie
February 15th, 2010, 16:55
Same goes for the Temple, but "fixing" it would be wrong imo.

Besides some maps require this trick to win them.

Mothrayas
February 15th, 2010, 17:22
Besides some maps require this trick to win them.

Official/DD maps or unofficial maps? If it's the former, this definitely needs to remain as is.

Krizzie
February 15th, 2010, 17:31
The (Post) Ancient Keeper Campaign requires it. :)

Sire
February 15th, 2010, 18:38
I personally like the Guard Post blockades, that way I can mess around without much interference from the enemy.

However, if the developers really didn't plan on them being in the game, it may be fun to try and make our way through the campaign mode without the blockading posts.

Trotim
February 15th, 2010, 19:45
Err... I am very certain the original Dungeon Keeper campaign never required this exploit (or that the devs intended it to be used - they most likely didn't even know this bug existed).

mefistotelis
February 15th, 2010, 21:28
It is true that many unofficial maps uses this as a game feature.

But it's also true that it looks ridiculous when evil monsters can't go up such short wall...

Currently I can't fix that yet, but it's definitely good subject for discussion.

Metal Gear Rex
February 15th, 2010, 22:26
Personally, it is upon the player if you ask me. I have never took advantage of this bug recently, but in the past I did. Like when I opened up into the water too soon with the Heroes (The water that connects up to the direct Northern Keeper) in that one DD level (#4 I think, can't remember the name) where you begin with 4 Warlocks. I wanted to be ready, but now I just let what happens happen.


Official/DD maps or unofficial maps? If it's the former, this definitely needs to remain as is.

I think you mean the latter, but if you are correct in your term of use it in being the former, I dare say I have no idea what you mean since I never need that (Especially in official, it is too damn easy, some DD is easy too)

I'm urged to play Belial again... last time I was there I had total pawnage with SKeletons. Maybe now I'll ignore that, going to be a real Dungeon Keeper this time and not abuse the Prison/Torture Chamber...

DragonsLover
February 16th, 2010, 06:16
I don't think it should be fixable. I guess it can be a nice feature.

In my unofficial patch, I make sort that some levels don't use that exploit, especially in Deeper Dungeons levels. But for the custom levels, it's something that you must think about carefully when you design your level. If you don't want that exploit in your level, just avoid giving "Guard Post" and "Temple" to that player. Otherwise, if you wanna give those rooms, design your level to avoid that trick, if you want.

Simple as that.

Krizzie
February 16th, 2010, 09:33
I find it pretty logical imo, go in first person and look how high it is. Unless someone can make a climbing animation I see no reason to change it.

Maybe change it so flying creatures can go over it, since that is possible in first person aswell.

DragonsLover
February 16th, 2010, 11:39
I'd agree on that. :)

dotted
February 16th, 2010, 11:45
way too easy to exploit, should be completely fixed

Krizzie
February 16th, 2010, 12:54
I don't see why, a human player has tons of ways to get passed this tactic.

-Bridge
-Flying 1st person and putting a CTA on it so creatures attack it.
-Destroy Walls

To name a few.

dotted
February 16th, 2010, 13:44
it's an exploit

Krizzie
February 16th, 2010, 15:06
it's an exploit

Your opinion. ;)

Mothrayas
February 16th, 2010, 15:12
Your opinion. ;)

It's a fact that it's an exploit.

That it needs to (not) be removed is an opinion, however.

dotted
February 16th, 2010, 16:35
Fact: It's an exploit.
Fact: Exploits should be fixed
Fact: Guard post is not a barricade, it's a guard post oddly enough.
Fact: Just because an exploit has been accepted and embraced by players doesn't mean it should not be fixed.

Mothrayas
February 16th, 2010, 17:03
Fact: It's an exploit.
Opinion: Exploits should be fixed
Fact: Guard post is not a barricade, it's a guard post oddly enough.
Opinion: Just because an exploit has been accepted and embraced by players doesn't mean it should not be fixed.

Fixed.

dotted
February 16th, 2010, 17:21
Fixed.

I disagree. Exploits must always be fixed. But the core of the problem is whether or not this is intended. And by saying it's an exploit you also say it is an unintended mechanic, and therefor i think it should be fixed.

edorien
February 16th, 2010, 17:51
How about being able to toggle it on and off dependent on the campaign/map/multiplayer option.
That way, it fixes the problem for multiplayer without breaking maps that require it. Same goes for the wind through diagonals, and the diagonal water tricks.

Duke Ragereaver
February 16th, 2010, 17:53
How about being able to toggle it on and off dependent on the campaign/map/multiplayer option.
That way, it fixes the problem for multiplayer without breaking maps that require it. Same goes for the wind through diagonals, and the diagonal water tricks.

The problem is that the data is universal.

Metal Gear Rex
February 16th, 2010, 19:33
God, how about just not using it? Now I know how annoying I am with "fixing" DK2.

Seriously, if you want to rely on such a trick, good for you. If not, well yay.

Mothrayas
February 16th, 2010, 19:47
God, how about just not using it? Now I know how annoying I am with "fixing" DK2.

Seriously, if you want to rely on such a trick, good for you. If not, well yay.

This.

I mean, it's not drastically game-changing, is it?

dotted
February 16th, 2010, 21:25
This.

I mean, it's not drastically game-changing, is it?

I think it is, and the behavior is totally unintuitive

Metal Gear Rex
February 16th, 2010, 21:45
I think it is, and the behavior is totally unintuitive

If you use it, otherwise it doesn't effect the game. Honestly, if you built a Guard Post or Temple just over the edge of land, it shows you're trying to use this trick. What's more is that you can easily build a bridge on the otherside to fix this even if you want to put a Guard Post there but have no space.

I mean if you're not ready to deal with Heroes or a Keeper (Which will probably bridge to your land anyways, countering this defense most of the time) then you should know how to hear when a passage opens via dripping/lava effects. Then there's Sight of Evil. I have found it boring if we use this trick because it becomes too easy, so I build a bridge on the other side just to fix this if I ever put a guard post there in the first place.

So if you want to bore your game of possiblity or joy, fine by me.

dotted
February 16th, 2010, 22:27
If you use it, otherwise it doesn't effect the game. Honestly, if you built a Guard Post or Temple just over the edge of land, it shows you're trying to use this trick. What's more is that you can easily build a bridge on the otherside to fix this even if you want to put a Guard Post there but have no space.

I mean if you're not ready to deal with Heroes or a Keeper (Which will probably bridge to your land anyways, countering this defense most of the time) then you should know how to hear when a passage opens via dripping/lava effects. Then there's Sight of Evil. I have found it boring if we use this trick because it becomes too easy, so I build a bridge on the other side just to fix this if I ever put a guard post there in the first place.

So if you want to bore your game of possiblity or joy, fine by me.

I had no idea this exploited existed until this topic was created, so no it doesn't show that you are using any trick whatsoever. Just because an exploit can be countered doesn't mean the exploit should be left in unfixed. Personally any obscure exploit should be removed, as you have to be a hardcore fan that knows every single aspect of the game to know of their existence.

Mothrayas
February 16th, 2010, 22:42
I think it is, and the behavior is totally unintuitive

I think creating walls too high to climb over is pretty intuitive.

And since you didn't know about it before, I assume you may not even have tried it out and see how non-broken this is. It keeps out a bunch of heroes in some specific situations if you want to, big deal. (Not.)

If you want to remove all 'exploits', then just scrap all WoP-damage dealing ideas as well, because that's gonna be exploited more than this.

Krizzie
February 16th, 2010, 23:10
I think creating walls too high to climb over is pretty intuitive.

And since you didn't know about it before, I assume you may not even have tried it out and see how non-broken this is. It keeps out a bunch of heroes in some specific situations if you want to, big deal. (Not.)

If you want to remove all 'exploits', then just scrap all WoP-damage dealing ideas as well, because that's gonna be exploited more than this.

Amen...

It's not like you win every map in 5 minutes with this "trick". :rolleyes:

Trotim
February 16th, 2010, 23:15
If you want to remove all 'exploits', then just scrap all WoP-damage dealing ideas as well, because that's gonna be exploited more than this.
WoP not dealing damage was a bug. It was an intended feature that did not work.
This blocking is the opposite, an exploit. It was never intended as feature but affects gameplay because something doesn't work right. =P

I'd say it should be fixed and available as an option, with "not fixed" being the default. Now the only problem is that I can't really think of an easy way to fix this, but I'm sure mefistotelis can think of a solution~
Either way, this shouldn't have priority. It's not too important.

Metal Gear Rex
February 16th, 2010, 23:55
WoP not dealing damage was a bug. It was an intended feature that did not work.
This blocking is the opposite, an exploit. It was never intended as feature but affects gameplay because something doesn't work right. =P

I'd say it should be fixed and available as an option, with "not fixed" being the default. Now the only problem is that I can't really think of an easy way to fix this, but I'm sure mefistotelis can think of a solution~
Either way, this shouldn't have priority. It's not too important.

Something I wonder... I'm sure that they discovered this through playtesting and such, this was farely obvious but perhaps they kept it in for a reason?

It is pretty humerous when a Knight is trying to climb onto your land and can't reach.

Trotim
February 17th, 2010, 01:11
I'm quite certain they did not know of these bugs, and if so, then they were only kept due to time constraints (despite the fact they postponed release quite a lot back then). Deeper Dungeons is probably the best example for the fact the Bullfrog developers weren't perfect =P

Metal Gear Rex
February 17th, 2010, 01:16
I'm quite certain they did not know of these bugs, and if so, then they were only kept due to time constraints (despite the fact they postponed release quite a lot back then). Deeper Dungeons is probably the best example for the fact the Bullfrog developers weren't perfect =P

Well true, they aren't perfect as nothing is but remember that Deeper Dungeons was rushed more than the original game by EA.

Either way, that is not part of this conversation... Unless we have proof EA was the cause of why they had not time.

Krizzie
February 17th, 2010, 09:02
I don't believe this is a bug/glitch.

A bug is like WOP or the Speed spell at level 10, same for the Healing spell. They are fixed now. (Except for WOP then)

I mean, if it was a bug than it's pretty stupid that they make it in two buildings now would it?

It's a tactic/way of playing. I rarely use it, only if the map requires it (Ancient Keeper for instance) Else you would never need it.
And as said before, you can easily get passed a blockade like this. If you don't know how, I suggest you start playing more instead of whining here. :p

CargoOfDarkness
February 17th, 2010, 11:12
Its true, its not a bug, its okay this way. I mean there are walls - you cant get through them, too. And there is only one spell against walls. For the temple / guard post you can still use brides and they are more avaiable then "destroy walls". ;)

Trotim
February 17th, 2010, 12:56
I mean, if it was a bug than it's pretty stupid that they make it in two buildings now would it?:p
Sorry to burst your bubble there but I'm sure they only wanted Guard Post / Temple to look pretty. If they intended them to block enemies coming from the water, they would at least have mentioned it somewhere, either in the manuals or in one of the information messages ingame. As it is, we can hardly ask the original developers what they actually wanted. Thing is: Even if they wanted Guard Post and Temple to block in this fashion, is it a behavior worth keeping? Just because some user-made levels were built specifically around this exploit doesn't mean it was intended.

Back when we fixed Speed at level 10, some folks were against it too. It was a feature, some said, to make level 10 Horned Reapers and Giants not overpowered. :|

But I imagine it might be too difficult for mefistotelis to fix at the moment, plus there are more important things to do first.

Krizzie
February 17th, 2010, 13:26
You're sure? (as in have knowlage we don't have?) Or you think you're sure?

That things aren't mentioned doesn't mean they aren't meant this way.. If everything was known it wouldn't be much fun, now would it?

Is the granade a bug too? Cause it can move objects, this isn't listed either...

Trotim
February 17th, 2010, 14:06
You're sure? (as in have knowlage we don't have?) Or you think you're sure?

That things aren't mentioned doesn't mean they aren't meant this way.. If everything was known it wouldn't be much fun, now would it?

Is the granade a bug too? Cause it can move objects, this isn't listed either...
No, I don't have any knowledge you guys don't have, in fact I'm pretty sure I have a lot less =P

Grenade is another such thing. Creatures never use it which leads me to believe that ability wasn't finished before release either, kind of like Sight or the Ghost's ability to go through doors (which they apparently had in but then removed shortly before release?). I suppose the Bullfrog devs should get the benefit of the doubt, but to be completely honest I can't imagine those things being like this on purpose. *shrug*

Mothrayas
February 17th, 2010, 14:30
Is the granade a bug too? Cause it can move objects, this isn't listed either...

Is the fact that Dragons learn Meteor at level 7 a bug too? It's not listed in the manual.

Just because something's not in the manual doesn't mean that it isn't supposed to be there.

And yes, explosion attacks such as Meteor and Grenade can move objects, which is probably intended.

@Trotim: I think Grenade's never used by unpossessed creatures because it's a very complex move to pull off correctly - something a simple AI cannot do. And Bullfrog probably didn't have the time to put in the ghosts-through-doors mechanism before release, or removed it at some point because it'd cause other bugs or annoyances.

Trotim
February 17th, 2010, 16:05
Is the fact that Dragons learn Meteor at level 7 a bug too? It's not listed in the manual.

Just because something's not in the manual doesn't mean that it isn't supposed to be there.

And yes, explosion attacks such as Meteor and Grenade can move objects, which is probably intended.

@Trotim: I think Grenade's never used by unpossessed creatures because it's a very complex move to pull off correctly - something a simple AI cannot do. And Bullfrog probably didn't have the time to put in the ghosts-through-doors mechanism before release, or removed it at some point because it'd cause other bugs or annoyances.
But it does mean that the development of the game did not go smoothly. I think we all know this anyway, I thought it was common knowledge that Dungeon Keeper 1 was kind of a mess when it was released? Whenever they wrote the manual, they were still very busy working on the game. That means they were running out of time, simply enough.
Grenade might be a complex move, yeah. It might never have been intended as a spell creatures use on their own, or it was supposed to be used but the devs simply couldn't get the AI to work right. Again, we can only speculate about these things, just like the Ghost mechanic.

My point is this: What the original game did and does is not hallowed. Just because we've been playing the game for about 13 years now and are used to all its tricks and shenanigans doesn't mean they should be in there. It might be hard to accept their removal, yeah. In some cases these little tricks may have been intended. Judging by how messy DK1 was at release, however, I think it is safe to say if the developers had kept working on it, they would have fixed these things as well. KeeperFX is made by DK1 veterans for DK1 veterans, so far. If you'll ever aim for a wider audience, you might consider getting rid of some of these exploits. It depends on how accepted they are in the community in general, I suppose. I kept asking myself: Would the original Bullfrog development team have fixed this issue if they had had the time?

In this Guard Post/Temple case, yes, I think they would have. It just didn't have priority - they had to release the game already and too soon. They fixed most major and game-breaking bugs, which is why now we're left with these little overlooked exploits that barely warrant this kind of discussion.

I'm kind of exaggerating the actual problem here, I'm sorry - I'm just trying to make a point for future, similar issues. I've been stalking these forums for quite some time and sensed a kind of... lack of professionality that can only come when you've had experience in the actual game development industry. I'm not trying to make this all formal or anything and I'm not trying to offend anybody, it's just that these kind of problems are quite common in the industry - you just obviously have never had to deal with them before as I doubt any of you are working in the field. I'm just trying to help, you know?

I complain because this has huge potential and I'm looking forward to future versions.

Madkill
February 17th, 2010, 16:42
I disagree...

And therefore, you have proved his point. :spider:


Also, if Fairies and flies etc can get past it then it doesn't need fixing.

Trotim
February 17th, 2010, 17:23
Okay, after some more actual testing in gameplay I can say the following:

It would, in my opinion, totally be fine if Guard Posts/Temple tiles still blocked. Flying creatures being able to move over them would be a nice addition but isn't needed. (It would make flying a little more important, I guess.)

One easy and easily accessible level where using this trick actually makes it a lot easier so you guys who didn't know of this can see it in action: BurdenedImp's level 1, Moonshadow Keep

Krizzie
February 17th, 2010, 18:20
In 1st person you can fly over the block, the AI flies lower and doesn't change the height of the flight so they wont be able to cross it. Changing that would probably take a lot of time, which I think isn't the effort.

dotted
February 17th, 2010, 18:54
I mean, if it was a bug than it's pretty stupid that they make it in two buildings now would it?
It makes perfect sense the this bug applies to both guard post and temple, you dont create bugs intentionally. It makes so much sense, that it is because of this I believe its an exploit as was unintended.


Its true, its not a bug, its okay this way. I mean there are walls - you cant get through them, too. And there is only one spell against walls. For the temple / guard post you can still use brides and they are more avaiable then "destroy walls". ;)

Is the granade a bug too? Cause it can move objects, this isn't listed either...
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_CVyf2DKxmB0/SGQ1o4lkHII/AAAAAAAAAAU/hlCjAYHC0bg/s320/guns%2Bprotesters.jpg


And therefore, you have proved his point. :spider:
Uhm no, saying that an exploit should not be fixed is simply wrong.

If we are not to fix it, then it should be fully embraced with descriptions updated to reflect it. Bugs where AI cannot fly over then needs to be fixed. And temple should not block either.

I can live with guard post functioning as a barricade, how it makes any sense is beyond me, but I'm really against not doing anything at all. Either remove it or embrace it.

Mothrayas
February 17th, 2010, 19:07
Uhm no, saying that an exploit should not be fixed is simply wrong.

That's your opinion. Your opinion is not a fact.

Krizzie
February 17th, 2010, 19:15
Stop calling it an exploit :o It's not that you will be invincible or overpowered if you make use of it...

It's just a logical hindernes nothing more. Use it or not..

dotted
February 17th, 2010, 19:52
That's your opinion. Your opinion is not a fact.
Which is the same as saying: Exploits should not be fixed, and should be kept for others to abuse.


Stop calling it an exploit :o It's not that you will be invincible or overpowered if you make use of it...

It's just a logical hindernes nothing more. Use it or not..

It's an exploit. Being a thermonuclear bomb is not a requirement to be called an exploit.
It's illogical. How exactly do you make the connection for a guard post, or a temple, to a barricade?

Mothrayas
February 17th, 2010, 20:05
Which is the same as saying: Exploits should not be fixed, and should be kept for others to abuse.
BOOHOO IT'S SO ABUSABLE IT'S BREAKING THE ENTIRE FREAKING GAME ;_;



Really, it's not worth the trouble to fix it.


It's an exploit. Being a thermonuclear bomb is not a requirement to be called an exploit.
And your point is? We should keep ourselves busy with pointless ****?

It's illogical. How exactly do you make the connection for a guard post, or a temple, to a barricade?

Both rooms consist of elevated ground, which is too high to get onto from deeper places such as water. Makes sense, in a way.

Trotim
February 17th, 2010, 20:05
One more pro blocking argument: Guard Posts don't really have an important function in the game if we fix this. Officially giving them the ability to block enemies in this way adds value to the Guard Post room which I think it severely needs (I can't think of a single time when I used guard posts to really win a mission (apart from blocking enemies~) - they're eye candy and I like placing them but the actual guard function is just not important enough).

I said "officially giving them the ability" which leads me to the next big suggestion: An official KeeperFX manual, preferably in the form of a wiki. All the little changes we're making should be documented somewhere, I think, and not just in the changelog.

Metal Gear Rex
February 17th, 2010, 20:33
Grenade might be a complex move, yeah. It might never have been intended as a spell creatures use on their own, or it was supposed to be used but the devs simply couldn't get the AI to work right. Again, we can only speculate about these things, just like the Ghost mechanic.

I felt like mentioning that most players (Not even me) can use this to its fullest potential. Most of the time I use it is in a narrow passage and then I just place it between the walls and run like hell XD

Sure, there's one way if we calqulate its speed and time for explosion to find out where it will explode but we need to calqulate surrounding terrain too and not to mention the speed of the enemy. It is a pretty complex move and if you get the hang of it, it can be pretty strong.

Also note it hurts allies and enemies so it may become more so damaging than helpful.


My point is this: What the original game did and does is not hallowed. Just because we've been playing the game for about 13 years now and are used to all its tricks and shenanigans doesn't mean they should be in there. It might be hard to accept their removal, yeah.

Yeah that was the main problem with the Word of Power changes. It was the acception of change. But I admit those were alot more drastic than these. I personally like it there for possibility.


KeeperFX is made by DK1 veterans for DK1 veterans, so far. If you'll ever aim for a wider audience, you might consider getting rid of some of these exploits. It depends on how accepted they are in the community in general, I suppose.

Community in general, yes. It seems the majority here like this "exploit" and it is a game too. So obviously we want to make the majority happy.


In this Guard Post/Temple case, yes, I think they would have. It just didn't have priority - they had to release the game already and too soon. They fixed most major and game-breaking bugs, which is why now we're left with these little overlooked exploits that barely warrant this kind of discussion.

Blame EA. :D

Though I really do become curious what the game's intentions are in the first place. Alot of stuff that can be real damaging too.


It makes perfect sense the this bug applies to both guard post and temple, you dont create bugs intentionally. It makes so much sense, that it is because of this I believe its an exploit as was unintended.

Well duh, why would you bug something intentially? What makes you so certain it is a bug... I'll explain it to you further down...


Uhm no, saying that an exploit should not be fixed is simply wrong.

A game, depends how enjoyable it is.


If we are not to fix it, then it should be fully embraced with descriptions updated to reflect it. Bugs where AI cannot fly over then needs to be fixed. And temple should not block either.

I dare say, can you jump that high?


I can live with guard post functioning as a barricade, how it makes any sense is beyond me, but I'm really against not doing anything at all. Either remove it or embrace it.

I think we're trying to move towards the direction of the latter but a little someone is holding us back.


Which is the same as saying: Exploits should not be fixed, and should be kept for others to abuse.

RIght... Do you have any idea how many "exploits" there are? Do you know how many there are in DK1?

Let's fix the Prison, Torture Chamber, Graveyard, Scavanger Room, and Workshop too!

Prison: Huge load of Skeletons can easily be obtained when fighting the Heroes
Torture Chamber: Convertion is a real easy thing to do.
Graveyard: Vampires are freaking powerful! And you can get alot of these real easily.
Scavanger Room: Clearly is obvious that I can scavange a keeper infinitely.

It is a question of usage. You can easily spam a huge load of Skeletons and converts, it is an exploit. Lets remove its potential.

So what happens when I come to play on an ordinary day, when I don't plan on abusing the rooms? I get so little out of them after "fixing" them that it isn't even worth it. They're good rooms that offer huge potentials and can be the true turn of the game, yet they are not so godmodding when you use them fairly and create only a few skeletons and such.

Those things can make a game real easy and you can win without any real strategy. Yet you don't have to use them so far that you exploit its weakness. Just like Horned Reapers too. The Guard Post's block isn't going to make you win the game just like that, so why are you complaining about it so much?

Word of Power is something that cannot be avoided (From ingame, you would have to mod it outside) yet these things can easily be avoided simply by not abusing them. It gets stale and boring after a while, you'll see.


One more pro blocking argument: Guard Posts don't really have an important function in the game if we fix this. Officially giving them the ability to block enemies in this way adds value to the Guard Post room which I think it severely needs (I can't think of a single time when I used guard posts to really win a mission - they're eye candy and I like placing them but the actual guard function is just not important enough).

Guard Posts serve as a very high purpose (To me) but mostly it is how you use them. I never use them for the blocking technique anymore. But what I do with them is build one tile at the entrance to my dungeon. I build a door there, and I set a creature to guard. And he stands guard to attack intruters as well as notify me.

I usually keep the door a distance away from the Guard Post so it isn't opened. This is so that in case a stealth unit has carefully hidden himself attempts to sneak past the guard, they must break down the door which reveals himself to me or rather the guard... then I'm notified.

It doesn't have to deal with winning the game but helps prevent losing the game.

As a side note, usually you might want to try Orcs as guards. They are pretty damn good and with speed they'll return to their posts rather quickly whenever they leave for food or payday. But most of the time you don't worry about it as Orcs' secondary is to guard which means once they can no longer train, they will guard (For either they are level 10 or hit a max level (set by script) or you're low on gold)

Krizzie
February 17th, 2010, 20:57
Both rooms consist of elevated ground, which is too high to get onto from deeper places such as water. Makes sense, in a way.

My point exactly.


For the real use of the Guardpost.. I usualy put vampires on guard, when I don't have the luxury of a Scavanger Room. They get bored pretty fast and with a Temple near by they even get themselves angry. With Teleport they are only away for a few seconds and can stand their ground for a while alone.

dotted
February 17th, 2010, 22:04
BOOHOO IT'S SO ABUSABLE IT'S BREAKING THE ENTIRE FREAKING GAME ;_;
http://forum.keeperklan.com/keeper-klan-forum-rules-t769.html


Really, it's not worth the trouble to fix it.

And your point is? We should keep ourselves busy with pointless ****?
Isn't the entire point of a remake to be able to fix these things? Surely you are not suggesting KeeperFX is pointless.


Both rooms consist of elevated ground, which is too high to get onto from deeper places such as water. Makes sense, in a way.
From a realism perspective sure, that makes sense. But from a game perspective, considering the fact that both rooms do completely different tasks, it makes no sense.



Well duh, why would you bug something intentially? What makes you so certain it is a bug... I'll explain it to you further down...
Well at some point Mefistotelis will have to address this, as he can't completely recode the game without doing so, which is the entire point of KeeperFX if I'm not mistaking. If not he will have to intentionally recreate the exploit.


A game, depends how enjoyable it is.
What does that have to do with what i said?


I dare say, can you jump that high?
As mentioned this will have to be addressed at some point or another.


I think we're trying to move towards the direction of the latter but a little someone is holding us back.
What are you smoking? Mefistotelis has 100% control over what he puts in KeeperFX, neither me nor you or anyone else can change that. What we can do is discuss these things so Mefistotelis can see the pros and cons of different suggestions and make a decision based on that. And the more we discuss and the better we can argue our case without falling back to silly caps and yelling like Mothrayas has done, the easier it is for Mefistotelis to make an informed decision. Things like these exploits should not be decided just by the majority, because the majority wants anything that artificially boosts themselves higher. If that wasn't the case we wouldn't have so many doping incidents in sports.



RIght... Do you have any idea how many "exploits" there are? Do you know how many there are in DK1?

Let's fix the Prison, Torture Chamber, Graveyard, Scavanger Room, and Workshop too!

Prison: Huge load of Skeletons can easily be obtained when fighting the Heroes
Torture Chamber: Convertion is a real easy thing to do.
Graveyard: Vampires are freaking powerful! And you can get alot of these real easily.
Scavanger Room: Clearly is obvious that I can scavange a keeper infinitely.

It is a question of usage. You can easily spam a huge load of Skeletons and converts, it is an exploit. Lets remove its potential.
So because there are X amounts of exploits we should ignore them all together? Personally when KeeperFX is around version 1.0 with working multiplayer i'd like to win because I'm the better player not because i knew more exploits than the other guy. And yes thos should be fixed/addressed aswell.


So what happens when I come to play on an ordinary day, when I don't plan on abusing the rooms? I get so little out of them after "fixing" them that it isn't even worth it. They're good rooms that offer huge potentials and can be the true turn of the game, yet they are not so godmodding when you use them fairly and create only a few skeletons and such.
Because you can chose not to use the exploits we should ignore them?


Those things can make a game real easy and you can win without any real strategy. Yet you don't have to use them so far that you exploit its weakness. Just like Horned Reapers too.
Exactly.


The Guard Post's block isn't going to make you win the game just like that, so why are you complaining about it so much?
Because it is an exploit, I don't care if the exploit is big or small. An exploit is an exploit, and needs to be addressed.


Word of Power is something that cannot be avoided (From ingame, you would have to mod it outside) yet these things can easily be avoided simply by not abusing them. It gets stale and boring after a while, you'll see.
Well the use of exploits make all game boring, which is why they should be fixed so the game remains fun.

Mothrayas
February 17th, 2010, 22:41
http://forum.keeperklan.com/keeper-klan-forum-rules-t769.html
Elaborate, please?

Isn't the entire point of a remake to be able to fix these things? Surely you are not suggesting KeeperFX is pointless.
As far as I know, KeeperFX still uses the same engine as the original game, with only minor differences. Sure, when the engine gets a complete remake it should just not be added, but now... it doesn't need fixing. And by pointless I referred to fixing this, not KeeperFX in general. I sure as **** know that KeeperFX is not pointless.


From a realism perspective sure, that makes sense. But from a game perspective, considering the fact that both rooms do completely different tasks, it makes no sense.
Fair enough, which is why it's in in the first place. Now why should mefistotelis bother fixing this, when there's plenty of more important things?


Well at some point Mefistotelis will have to address this, as he can't completely recode the game without doing so, which is the entire point of KeeperFX if I'm not mistaking. If not he will have to intentionally recreate the exploit.
Then just not recreate it?



...without falling back to silly caps and yelling like Mothrayas has done...

Instead of being bothered so ****ing much by the caps, how about you actually read what I posted?


...because the majority wants anything that artificially boosts themselves higher. If that wasn't the case we wouldn't have so many doping incidents in sports.
'artificially boosts themselves higher'? Only marginally at most. There's way bigger 'artificial boosts' than this, such as Word of Power dealing damage - something deliberately not just kept in, but added. I don't see how you're making such a big deal out of this, something very minor compared to other things..


So because there are X amounts of exploits we should ignore them all together? Personally when KeeperFX is around version 1.0 with working multiplayer i'd like to win because I'm the better player not because i knew more exploits than the other guy. And yes thos should be fixed/addressed aswell.
FYI, this doesn't even work in multiplayer - and it's so minor, skill is going to be infinitely more relevant than this. Better fix the things what MGR mentioned, than whine about this.


Because you can chose not to use the exploits we should ignore them?
Isn't it the same case with Word of Power, which I felt was getting at least borderline broken, but it was added in because it was ignorable?



Exactly.
Way to derail the topic by agreeing about something completely irrelevant.



Because it is an exploit, I don't care if the exploit is big or small. An exploit is an exploit, and needs to be addressed.
Let's do absolutely nothing about it, let's keep it in, and when the code gets rewritten let's keep it out.


Well the use of exploits make all game boring, which is why they should be fixed so the game remains fun.
If it makes it boring (which might be subjective) don't use it, which was the point MGR was making all along.

Trotim
February 17th, 2010, 22:45
I'm pretty sure mef figured out WoP was supposed to deal damage, but the code was bugged? That's not "adding", that's fixing XP

Mothrayas
February 17th, 2010, 22:47
The game was released without damage dealing. Sure, the developers intended it to do damage, and there was (faulty) code for it, but still...

Metal Gear Rex
February 18th, 2010, 01:26
dotted, do you realize you have just joined out cause of not fixing it with your own logic and yet you don't seem to realize it?


Isn't the entire point of a remake to be able to fix these things? Surely you are not suggesting KeeperFX is pointless.

No those thoughts are just wildly popping in your argument of defense... or rather of attack...

There is a lot of things FX has changed and fixed. And in time it will be alot more. That Speed thing was annoying as well as dexterity, I'm glad to see that fixed. And the increase of power for spells? Well I previously only trained my Warlocks to level 4 but now that sounds shabby, it makes me want to further excell training to higher levels.


As far as I know, KeeperFX still uses the same engine as the original game, with only minor differences. Sure, when the engine gets a complete remake it should just not be added, but now... it doesn't need fixing. And by pointless I referred to fixing this, not KeeperFX in general. I sure as **** know that KeeperFX is not pointless.

Yes, FX is fixing alot of things. dotted, look at previous things that were fixed. They were all for the better, people like them, and they're also modable, like temple sacrifices or the Word of Power spell. Something like this will certainly be loss for those who use the trick, (Several ways of gameplay I can think of which is why someone would want to use this, I've done so for one example and thats because I didn't feel like creating a war but by building one fine dungeon and I didn't want the Heroes ruining that) and for those who don't use this trick, it shows how pointless it is to "fix" it since obviously there are better things to do.


From a realism perspective sure, that makes sense. But from a game perspective, considering the fact that both rooms do completely different tasks, it makes no sense.

If you ask me, the Dragon with melee makes not much sense. The Dragon is a tank unit, he's not meant to be returning heavy damage. Of course, I don't really complain about it. It only takes a few seconds to remove it (Thanks to FX's new easy format) and the time it would take to actually "fix" this compared to making it an on or off switch via FXrules may not be even worth it. It can easily be avoided for those who dislike it, and it can be used for those who do like it.

By removing it you are taking away the rights of the latter which may be displeased to hear such news.


Fair enough, which is why it's in in the first place. Now why should mefistotelis bother fixing this, when there's plenty of more important things?

Well it is a question of finding things that are open for discussion and this, at the moment, has the spotlight.




Well at some point Mefistotelis will have to address this, as he can't completely recode the game without doing so, which is the entire point of KeeperFX if I'm not mistaking. If not he will have to intentionally recreate the exploit.

Then just not recreate it?

Simple as that, not everything has to be recreated. You sound as if EVERYTHING must be recreated, but yet it seems you don't know what it means by everything. Creatures too are effected, some stuff were taken from DL's patch but not everything and not everything has to be fixed.


What does that have to do with what i said?

It means that if you think it is lame to use this trick, then you will find the game boring. At some point or another, people will try a different approach and then not use this trick. Or as previously stated, they may wish to use this trick to help them win. Losing all the time isn't fun, I am sure we can all relate to that specifically to pros compared to noobs, so this little trick can be used to help someone win and have fun.


As mentioned this will have to be addressed at some point or another.
Thank you for your "wisdom" oh wise fortune teller.

Not all changes are for good you know.


What are you smoking? Mefistotelis has 100% control over what he puts in KeeperFX, neither me nor you or anyone else can change that. What we can do is discuss these things so Mefistotelis can see the pros and cons of different suggestions and make a decision based on that.

Thanks for the insult, but you just answered the meaning of that statement. It is in bold there that I highlighted for you.


And the more we discuss and the better we can argue our case without falling back to silly caps and yelling like Mothrayas has done, the easier it is for Mefistotelis to make an informed decision.

Insults are even worse, therefore you're not even making yourself the better man in this case. You should know better than to directly try to annoy someone.


Instead of being bothered so ****ing much by the caps, how about you actually read what I posted?

Mothrayas, the swearing helps not. While tis true your statements had meaning, clearing the swearing doesn't add much more but apparently make dotted amused judging by his previous reaction.


Things like these exploits should not be decided just by the majority, because the majority wants anything that artificially boosts themselves higher. If that wasn't the case we wouldn't have so many doping incidents in sports.

There are alot deeper things that can actually effect the game, those that have a higher "boost" so to say.


'artificially boosts themselves higher'? Only marginally at most. There's way bigger 'artificial boosts' than this, such as Word of Power dealing damage - something deliberately not just kept in, but added. I don't see how you're making such a big deal out of this, something very minor compared to other things..

Technically it was "fixed" however this was more like an entirely new element to the game. The problem with this is that it cannot be avoided in game. Only by modifying some things out of the game. And the Guard Post can easily be avoided in the game, more so easily than this.



So because there are X amounts of exploits we should ignore them all together? Personally when KeeperFX is around version 1.0 with working multiplayer i'd like to win because I'm the better player not because i knew more exploits than the other guy. And yes thos should be fixed/addressed aswell.

This is the turning point in your arguement...

That's exactly what I mean, because you're a better player. So you wouldn't abuse such exploits and that means you wouldn't use this trick, just as you stated.


FYI, this doesn't even work in multiplayer - and it's so minor, skill is going to be infinitely more relevant than this. Better fix the things what MGR mentioned, than whine about this.

Mothrayas has it correct, this doesn't really effect the game at all. Enemies would be bridging anyways but this trick obviously can be countered extremely easily. Building a huge load of Skeletons or Ghosts (Vampires even) can widely effect the turn of events in the game. You'd be surprised how powerful Ghosts are in huge groups in high levels, more powerful than Vampires but not so great against Skeletons...

"Because it is an exploit, I don't care if the exploit is big or small. An exploit is an exploit, and needs to be addressed."
-dotted


Because you can chose not to use the exploits we should ignore them?

The thing is... If Mefisto made it so that those things were impossible to exploit, it means I (The player) would have to drastically use each room to get an average amount of usage, which isn't much fun and may result in ignoring it.

You can ignore it or simply not abuse it, like you stated. Yet like you stated, the same thing can be replied to the Guard Post.


Isn't it the same case with Word of Power, which I felt was getting at least borderline broken, but it was added in because it was ignorable?

Yes, it offers potential to use. Some things I always thought were the point in being added was to satisfy all. If half the people want no damage in WoP and half of the people want damage in WoP, how about adding the feature to add damage to WoP but for default set it to 0 so people can easily modify this.

This is not something that can be easily modified, unless Mefisto has some line of code that refers to the rules on this, but it is the most pointless thing to do.

Those who will be wanting to use it will leave it on as in the defaults and then play with it.

Those who do not want it would turn it off but would probably also never even set it up so this feature would be needed, unless diliberately, which is also pointless.

A feature like this is just a waste of time, Mefisto has more important things to work on.


Exactly.

Way to derail the topic by agreeing about something completely irrelevant.

It is not irrelevant dotted, it is an exploit.


Because it is an exploit, I don't care if the exploit is big or small. An exploit is an exploit, and needs to be addressed.

So lets fix Horned Reapers, Prison, Graveyard, all that stuff so like previously, you need to use it to the point where before the "fix" it can be abused but in the case of after the "fix" it can be an ordinary usage.

What I was saying was that those modifications will surely limit the player. Making nearly the entire game "noob-friendly" and not fun for those who want to play as real keepers for the need of drastic usage of a room to get something worthwhile out of it.

I'm pretty sure


Well the use of exploits make all game boring, which is why they should be fixed so the game remains fun.

One way to fix the exploit of Skeleton spamming is to make it so there's a 50% chance of getting a skeleton... So I guess it is fun to get half the amount of skeletons as you can get from converts.

Basically the point is simply avoid being a total noob in using them to abusive levels, unless of course you're trying to build the biggest army possible (Which I attempted with some of these rooms)


If it makes it boring (which might be subjective) don't use it, which was the point MGR was making all along.

Yes, it is also what dotted mentioned too but he doesn't seem to realize it.

Jibbits
February 18th, 2010, 02:41
I think the guard post and temple should be fixed. It makes the game too easy when I can just put down one guard post near the water and keep all the hero forces out of my dungeon for the rest of the game. I've done that many times; path of least resistance ;)

The fix would be as easy as making the guard post and temple the same height as every other tile. That would look better too, in my opinion.

Metal Gear Rex
February 18th, 2010, 03:57
I think the guard post and temple should be fixed. It makes the game too easy when I can just put down one guard post near the water and keep all the hero forces out of my dungeon for the rest of the game. I've done that many times; path of least resistance ;)

Can... you don't have to. You admit the game becomes too easy, so you obviously want it to be a challange. So why not simply not use it?

Madkill
February 18th, 2010, 04:12
Dotted needs to realise that no one is saying he is wrong. He needs to realise that what he is saying is his opinion, an opinion, and it is not a fact.

Whether you are right or wrong on the matter is down to other peoples' opinions as well.

DragonsLover
February 18th, 2010, 06:45
First, we have no idea if it was intentional or not, like as many other weird things being left in the game. It's a mystery and only the programmers and developers of the game could say the answer, but that game is very old and I don't think those who created the game could remember. Conclusion: we can't even know if this is an exploit or if it's something intended.

So, to be fixed or not to be fixed? That is the question.

I can agree that it may ruins the game, making the level easier to complete than intended, but AFAIK, you can perform a similar thing to block the path of enemies into your dungeon:

You can use the "pass through corner" bug (the little hole that opens diagonally to a watery/lava area) to dig a path to enemy Keeper with an Imp so that heroes of the level attack his dungeon instead of yours by walling the earth slabs. This even work with a creature with :whirlwind: spell that would blow the Imp through a normal corner.

On the final, solving the Guard Post and Temple elevation exploit would be pointless as it works exactly the same with the point above. Both situations require a watery/lava area to work. The only differences here are that the guard post/temple exploit makes easier for our own creatures to go free outside, without the possibility for the enemies to come in, but also, most importantly, allows to claim the outside territory next of the water/lava by temporarily building a bridge and sending Imps, but anyway, a lava area would act the same with the only exception of flying and lava-safe creatures that could cross the pit. It's only with a watery area that it becomes more nasty as ALL the creatures can't get access to the dungeon. So, the proposals of only sending flying creatures would be good I think. It could counter that situation. I consider way more stupid that they can't get over the room than those that walk.

Also, this is generally useful in single player maps as AI Keepers may be too stupid to place a bridge. But if there's no AI Keepers on the map (only heroes), then this trick becomes useless as it just prevents heroes to come in. For original campaign and Deeper Dungeons, I did my best to avoid the exploit in my unofficial patch. For the custom levels, just think twice about that exploit when you give the rooms to that player, but also the lava trap. And just design your level carefully.

AFAIK, there are way much worse exploits than that, like: freeing our own imprisoned and tortured creatures with Cave-In spell, possessing an invisible creature to attack the heart without being noticed, dropping an Imp next to the enemy portal when their imps are digging the path, trapping the heroes over a built bridge, creating infinite Vampires with Imps, resurrecting a creature that has been sacked or that has morphed into a stronger creature...

But anyway, as I already said one time, you are free to use the exploits if you want an easy win. Good for you if you don't use the hard and much fun way.

Jibbits
February 18th, 2010, 07:37
The problem is that I can use something that is supposed to be a guard post and turn it into a wall to make it impossible for heroes to kill me. The room is supposed to be for guards to scare away imps and kill enemies, it shouldn't be a wall.


Can... you don't have to. You admit the game becomes too easy, so you obviously want it to be a challange. So why not simply not use it?

Why would anyone give up an advantage like that? And anyway I like beating levels as fast and easily as I can, it's the game's and the game creator's job to make it hard for me.

And anyway, how silly that the same heroes who smash down thick wooden doors in seconds find small wooden platforms with flags on them invincible.