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A New Room
February 26th, 2010, 17:43
How is training going to be done?

Dungeon Keeper Training System:

All Creatures can train to level 10 in Training Room.
Also get levels and experience though combat.
Imps only get levels in the training Room.
Dungeon Special.



Pros:

Creatures can be trained to high levels in bulk.

Cons:

Allows players to take their time inside their walls, making for very long multi-player games.

Dungeon Keeper 2 Training System:

All creatures (except Imps and Horny) can train in Training Room till level 4.
Also gain experience till level 8 in the Combat pit.
Creatures also gain.
Imps gain levels and experience by digging.
Dungeon Special.



Pros:

Forces the player to move more, making multiplayer matches move quite a bit quicker.

Cons:

2 rooms that do the same thing.


a combination of both?

or a new plan?


(If I have forgotten anything or got something wrong please tell me. Also I know there are a few other Pros and cons, just can't remember them)

Mothrayas
February 26th, 2010, 17:49
I prefer the DK1 system, personally. Combat Pit basically allows you to train for free, and it works faster and up to higher levels as well, making the Training Room completely useless.

Changing it so the Combat Pit won't be available (researched) until late isn't a good option either, it basically disallows getting anything above level 4 until then, which I don't think I would like.

Hapuga
February 26th, 2010, 17:56
You can read 100 books about hunting and defend a thesis in PhD on hunting.... but when you first take a real gun in your hands you are in a totally different world.

Same with training. You can do as much practice as you wish, but it will never be the same for a real combat.

As such, I would leave TR at level 4-5.

Combat pit is another level, so I find it useful for levels 4-8-10.

Btw, who said that we have to stick to the original 10 level system? that's history.

How about 30 levels? 40? 50? Imbalanced you say? I say, bullshit.

Your creatures may train up to level 8 lets say, and gain skills up to level 20. The rest of 20-30 levels is simply a stat improvement.
Another way of reducing "pwness" is by making levels after 20 very difficult to obtain.

Imagine a truly "veteran" level 40 goblin, so good that he doesnt even fear a level 5 knight. I bet you'd hate to lose him in battle ) Makes the gameplay a bit more lively.

Tassadar44
February 26th, 2010, 18:55
I think it should be so:
• The original level 10 system
• All creatures can train to Level 5 in the training room
• Imps can get levels in the training room and by digging
• Dungeon Special

Necror
February 26th, 2010, 19:16
i preffer the dk2 system

Metal Gear Rex
February 26th, 2010, 22:33
Oh goody, I just remembered I prepared a topic starter for this, now where is that file...?

My personal preferance is DK1.

But you're forgetting one more very basic thing... costs.

Multiply all the Training Room costs in DK1 by 3, and see how many are actually less than 20, the overall DK2 cost. That's to compare considering the gold amount through each gold block.

Also, unless you have a gem rock or gold supply ready with you, how do you suppose to last very long walling yourself in? In my experiance, it only makes it more challanging, because you have to break out at the right time. Too early and the challange you face outside of creatures training and fighting is too great, too late and you'll find the gold escaping your grasp.

Also, while you're walled in on a limited gold supply (Even if you have a gem rock, you only get so much out of it so quickly) your enemies will be fighting to gain more experiance faster, and will never worry about the gold running low as they can simply get more. And also this strategy doesn't allow you to expand your dungeon, there are alot of faults in this strategy so don't think it is actually so easy. I speak from experiance, I've done this quite some amount of times.

@Hapuga
I couldn't agree with you anymore, but it is difficult to say which way to go. DK1 had some realistic stuff too, I mean if you look at the Vampire's/Dark Mistress' high damage stats, even though they are support, it is because a claw will do more damage than a fist. Getting stabbed clearly hurts more, so from a realistic point of view that's why they did that.

On the otherhand, it is like Imp training. How many times in DK2 did you care when you lost an Imp? How many times was it level 4 or 8 and you cared? And in DK1, it was alot more difficult to train your Imps and you got good out of it. But you also became more cautious about everything. When I had nothing but level 4 DK1 Imps, I would always create another Imp or possess a Bile Demon and walk through enemy land to make sure there are no traps to kill them, then I let the Imps go.

I even had a little "Storage" to lock the Imps inside durring battle.

I prefer the DK1 system on that too because from a gameplay perspective, it is strategy.

Evi
February 26th, 2010, 22:38
Imps gaining EXP from digging = YES. :p

Training Room that levels 1 to 6. Rest of levels in battle.

Less turtleing, more action! :D

Necror
February 27th, 2010, 11:33
training in battle should go way faster then in training room

MeinCookie
February 27th, 2010, 12:00
DK 2 system was better in my opinion. Being able to train creatures all the way in a single room doesn't appeal to me. Certain skill should only be obtainable through battle.

Perhaps Training Room can rank creatures to Level 8, but the training time takes progressively longer so by that time it takes ages to rank. By the time creatures gets to Level 6 you want to build a Combat Pit for efficiency. Combat Pit is only slightly slower than actual combat, but also still ranks only to Level 8.

This would also allow you to rank Skeletons and undead more easily and higher than the DK 2 model.

Metal Gear Rex
February 27th, 2010, 12:08
DK 2 system was better in my opinion. Being able to train creatures all the way in a single room doesn't appeal to me. Certain skill should only be obtainable through battle.

Perhaps Training Room can rank creatures to Level 8, but the training time takes progressively longer so by that time it takes ages to rank. By the time creatures gets to Level 6 you want to build a Combat Pit for efficiency. Combat Pit is only slightly slower than actual combat, but also still ranks only to Level 8.

This would also allow you to rank Skeletons and undead more easily and higher than the DK 2 model.

However I think we all agree on DK1's fighting experiance system on experiance when hit rather than experiance per second of battle because I'm sure I'd clearly be gaining experiance as fast as killing Imps as fighting Horny.

MeinCookie
February 27th, 2010, 12:19
However I think we all agree on DK1's fighting experiance system on experiance when hit rather than experiance per second of battle because I'm sure I'd clearly be gaining experiance as fast as killing Imps as fighting Horny.

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean you can't drop down the experience earned per hit by a level-dependent fixed percent in Combat and Training Rooms. Basically you would earn more fighting a Horner Reaper in combat pit than say, a dwarf, but it is still quite a bit less than actual combat experience gain.

Training Room:
Level 1-2: 15% Less than Combat
Level 2-3: 20% Less than Combat
Level 3-4: 25% Less than Combat
Level 4-5: 30% Less than Combat
Level 5-6: 35% Less than Combat
Level 6-7: 45% Less than Combat
Level 7-8: 70% Less than Combat

Combat Pit:
Level 1-2: 5% Less than Combat
Level 2-3: 5% Less than Combat
Level 3-4: 10% Less than Combat
Level 4-5: 10% Less than Combat
Level 5-6: 15% Less than Combat
Level 6-7: 15% Less than Combat
Level 7-8: 30% Less than Combat

Metal Gear Rex
February 27th, 2010, 12:25
Perhaps, but that doesn't mean you drop down the experience earned per hit by a hit by a level-dependent fixed percent in Combat and Training Rooms.

Training Room:
Level 1-2: 15% Less than Combat
Level 2-3: 20% Less than Combat
Level 3-4: 25% Less than Combat
Level 4-5: 30% Less than Combat
Level 5-6: 35% Less than Combat
Level 6-7: 45% Less than Combat
Level 7-8: 70% Less than Combat

Combat Pit:
Level 1-2: 5% Less than Combat
Level 2-3: 5% Less than Combat
Level 3-4: 10% Less than Combat
Level 4-5: 10% Less than Combat
Level 5-6: 15% Less than Combat
Level 6-7: 15% Less than Combat
Level 7-8: 30% Less than Combat

Training Room should work by training values, DK1 and DK2 worked like that, therefore don't use the experiance when hit. Combat Pit should use that, but like you said a discount otherwise it is too strong.

Oh and I don't think it should decrease as they level, that would be really annoying. Just keep it at like 15 or 20 or something, remember experinace needed increases too.

MeinCookie
February 27th, 2010, 12:33
Oh and I don't think it should decrease as they level, that would be really annoying. Just keep it at like 15 or 20 or something, remember experinace needed increases too.

A good point... but I still think that it should take much longer to rank in Training Rooms the higher your creature gets. Because it is simply training, and while it might make do on lower levels it shouldn't have as much effect higher up. You don't see crack troops going through trainee assault courses.

Not necessarily an issue in the Combat Pit although a fixed value below ordinary combat would be nice :D

Zander353
February 28th, 2010, 01:52
I do think that the training room should have some kinda of a level limit b/c alot of people like to make gem maps :/ that means unlimited money and training... I also think that the cap should be raised about to 20 just because i want to see a goblin beat the hell out of a dark knight xD ... then again those are just my opinions

Metal Gear Rex
February 28th, 2010, 01:59
I do think that the training room should have some kinda of a level limit b/c alot of people like to make gem maps :/ that means unlimited money and training... I also think that the cap should be raised about to 20 just because i want to see a goblin beat the hell out of a dark knight xD ... then again those are just my opinions

Well a reason of just to see that isn't a very good reason, not even EA changed that so are we going to go farther than that?

MeinCookie
February 28th, 2010, 04:37
Perhaps you can toggle that on skirmish maps. Classic and Expanded.

A New Room
February 28th, 2010, 11:30
How about something like this:
In the Training Room Creatures train at normal speed 1-6, Level 7-10 is slower.

Combat gives creatures the most exp.

They also gain a small amount of experience for doing jobs (ie reading and working)

Creatures who enjoy training will continue to do so for fun when idol. (This way there is no empty training room when creatures are level 10)

Imps gain a small amount of exp from digging, they gain more experience by using the Training Room but cost a lot to train.



Personally I prefer the DK style, but I can sort of see what they were trying to do with training in DK2.

MeinCookie
February 28th, 2010, 11:47
I don't know. I really feel that Levels 9-10 or equivalent should be gained by combat only. I suppose that clashes with being able to have higher levels but perhaps that is what combat pit can be for.

Ok... Perhaps this:

Training Room trains to Level 4 at a speed only just below normal combat. At Level 6-7 it is perhaps slower, a noticeable difference, and at Level 8-9 it becomes quite inefficient. Combat Pit can't train creatures lower than Level 4 and can train to Level 10 but is consistently 20%-30% less experience gained per hit than actual combat equivalent. Combat... well that can train you from Level 1-10 with no percentage deducted.

This means that Combat Pit doesn't make Training Room redundant at early stages and that Training Room can train creatures to reasonable levels, abet at a slower pace. Combat still rules.

A New Room
February 28th, 2010, 12:40
Why is the combat pit needed? It is just another room...

I'll put it this way, the less rooms there are the smaller the Dungeon needs to be. A smaller dungeon makes for a more manageable dungeon, which therefore can increase efficiency. :/

Hapuga
February 28th, 2010, 13:33
ok, let's have 4 rooms with 4 types of creatures, one defends, one attacks melee, one attacks ranged, and one attacks magic.

Perfect efficiency. Will you play such a game?

A New Room
February 28th, 2010, 13:42
Most probably not :D

I'm merely asking why have 2 rooms for the same thing?

Hapuga
February 28th, 2010, 14:17
Most probably not :D

I'm merely asking why have 2 rooms for the same thing?

Yeah, I'm asking the same thing, why having 20 different creatures when we can have 1 that serves the same purpose - k-kk-kk-kill?

Think out of that box of yours. Different elements, even if they look the same bring some flavour to the game. CP is not only the mean to train, but the ultimate bloody entertainment. They had no television, remember?

A New Room
February 28th, 2010, 14:45
I see... I would suggest something like combining the combat pit with the Training Room, but I don't even like that idea.

So how best to make it so both rooms don't become completely useless once they have fulfilled their purpose?

Madkill
February 28th, 2010, 15:15
You can read 100 books about hunting and defend a thesis in PhD on hunting.... but when you first take a real gun in your hands you are in a totally different world.

Same with training. You can do as much practice as you wish, but it will never be the same for a real combat.


Its a game and there are some realisms that should be ignored, especially in these circumstances.
If its a map where the players start with gems make sure that lovely 'Destroy Walls' is available, that way the keeper can't hide himself away forever!
...Go with the DKI system with the 20% decrease to experience gained from the training room and Imps slowly gain levels by digging. (DKII's was a bit rapid)

I think it'd work well like that.

Dungeon Keeper I had the white bar which showed you how effective the room was, maybe expanding on that idea would be good.
If you have a 4x7 room it won't be as effective as a 4x6 room, it'll only be able to train another 1-2 creatures at a time.

Maybe if you can make the training room large enough...Like if you were to build a training room, It would have to be a training room of a 6x6 size to be able to have even a small pit large enough for two creatures, this would boost the experience gained with only a 5-10% penalty to experience gained.
And if its using the large amounts creatures require in order to train as it does in DKI, then making a training room so large would drain your cash with 30-or-so creatures in there all whacking away.

Metal Gear Rex
February 28th, 2010, 17:34
Yeah, I'm asking the same thing, why having 20 different creatures when we can have 1 that serves the same purpose - k-kk-kk-kill?

Think out of that box of yours. Different elements, even if they look the same bring some flavour to the game. CP is not only the mean to train, but the ultimate bloody entertainment. They had no television, remember?

Bloody lies, they kept asking me for cable. Standard was good enough for them lazy slackers!

I recall a certain someone critisizing on the quanity, did you change your idea of thinking hmm?

Honestly, though, Combat Pit is better than advancing to hold 20 levels or something like that, I mean it barely works in my RPG and that's because would you really want to wait 10 levels to be considered Leveling Up? I brought it that high up for a reason, damn it...

We WILL have to reinvent the Combat Pit though, do to the cheapness and crap. I mean it would be risk free if there was no Imp bug, when they wouldn't take my creatures. It isn't about the risk, I'm talking cost and crap like that.

Duke Ragereaver
February 28th, 2010, 19:36
Stick with just the trainingsroom is my opinion, and a maximum of 10 levels.

Hapuga
February 28th, 2010, 19:39
Stick with just the trainingsroom is my opinion, and a maximum of 10 levels.

Tell me more.

A New Room
February 28th, 2010, 19:52
Tell me more.
It would be like Quantum Leap, except there would be no Scott Bakula, oh and I would be Al...

I'm not sure there is much more that really needs explaining ',:|

Hapuga
February 28th, 2010, 20:27
It would be like Quantum Leap, except there would be no Scott Bakula, oh and I would be Al...

I'm not sure there is much more that really needs explaining ',:|

I see.

A classic example of conservative thinking. You never encountered a system like that, didn't you.

Plus, it is fairly easy to implement it.

MeinCookie
February 28th, 2010, 20:34
Yeah, well you need to be true to both games and the combat pit really added something to DK 2.


Its a game and there are some realisms that should be ignored, especially in these circumstances.

Now that can be explained. DK 2 quite honestly had a better and more realistic system of training. What is wrong with glorious realism in all it colour, and why not exactly?

As for going for DK 1 just because wall-experience is slow and you can train them... well you can just as easily add that to DK 2's mechanic.

I still like my last suggestion. If you ask me it combines both Training Room and Combat Pit in a way that resembles both sufficiently.

Metal Gear Rex
February 28th, 2010, 20:43
Yeah, well you need to be true to both games and the combat pit really added something to DK 2.



Now that can be explained. DK 2 quite honestly had a better and more realistic system of training. What is wrong with glorious realism in all it colour, and why not exactly?

As for going for DK 1 just because wall-experience is slow and you can train them... well you can just as easily add that to DK 2's mechanic.

I still like my last suggestion. If you ask me it combines both Training Room and Combat Pit in a way that resembles both sufficiently.

For gameplay, that's what's wrong with it. With gameplay in perspective Imps were trained by Training, not digging. It was quite well. I think the Combat Pit was done rather poorly in DK2, which makes it hard to believe it is worth fitting in WftO. Make room for more unique rooms.

Zander353
February 28th, 2010, 20:53
I think MeinCookie had the right idea, the training room should be able to train people to 7 or 8th level, and the combat pit cant be used until 4th level. this makes both the rooms have importance and gives variety to the game. However, if you insist on leaving out the combat pit :/ I think the creatures should at least have to get to levels 9 and 10 by true combat.

Hapuga
February 28th, 2010, 20:54
With gameplay in perspective Imps were trained by Training, not digging. It was quite well.

Imps are fighters or diggers? What fits best for a digger, fighting training or digging training? What does your common sense suggest?


I think the Combat Pit was done rather poorly in DK2, which makes it hard to believe it is worth fitting in WftO.

Interesting logic. How about learning on previous mistakes and improving?


Make room for more unique rooms.

Like?

MeinCookie
February 28th, 2010, 20:54
But it isn't just a room, is it? It is a way of training. And WftO is a completely different game. Just because some of the coding was iffy in DK 2 it doesn't mean it would be in WftO. Less so in fact, since it has a bad history people will pay specific attention.

As said... training imps can't be claimed against DK 2's system for WftO. It could easily be incorporated.

As for making way for more interesting rooms, I notice that there are very few in suggestions??...

I'm not suggesting DK 2's system.


I don't know. I really feel that Levels 9-10 or equivalent should be gained by combat only. I suppose that clashes with being able to have higher levels but perhaps that is what combat pit can be for.

Ok... Perhaps this:

Training Room trains to Level 4 at a speed only just below normal combat. At Level 5-6 it is perhaps slower, a noticeable difference, and at Level 7-8 it becomes quite inefficient. Combat Pit can't train creatures lower than Level 4 and can train to Level 10 but is consistently 20%-30% less experience gained per hit than actual combat equivalent. Combat... well that can train you from Level 1-10 with no percentage deducted.

This means that Combat Pit doesn't make Training Room redundant at early stages and that Training Room can train creatures to reasonable levels, abet at a slower pace. Combat still rules.

This issue should only be settled with compromise.

Metal Gear Rex
February 28th, 2010, 21:11
Imps are fighters or diggers? What fits best for a digger, fighting training or digging training? What does your common sense suggest?

Training, why? Because we're making a game and that does widely effect the gameplay. It means Imps have a higher value.


Interesting logic. How about learning on previous mistakes and improving?

My point on that near exactly, but it is hard to see the light when it has already been dimmed in one tunnel.


Like?

Well if we stop wasting time on one room we could probably think of some. I mean the Labortory idea was more usefull than this because it still had different things, this is basically a Guard and Royal Guard since one is an upgrade of the other.

Notice I didn't say Barbarian and Giant? Giant can't fight an Archer for sh!t. One isn't an upgrade of the other but simply has different stats so when they face each other the Giant wins in that situation. And not in every situation compared to the Barbarian.

Oh and I end this arguement here or rather on your next reply since you will reply unless to prove me wrong that you love to argue like this, and thus ruin threads by forcing closure.


But it isn't just a room, is it? It is a way of training. And WftO is a completely different game. Just because some of the coding was iffy in DK 2 it doesn't mean it would be in WftO. Less so in fact, since it has a bad history people will pay specific attention.

As said... training imps can't be claimed against DK 2's system for WftO. It could easily be incorporated.

As for making way for more interesting rooms, I notice that there are very few in suggestions??...

I'm not suggesting DK 2's system.



This issue should only be settled with compromise.

I'm not sure where to go with the Imps. If training by digging, the training by the room has less value in strategy to me.

We don't have to level up all the way in training inside the dungeon, not even DK2 did that. And to be honest, that was pretty smart. Because when you are allowed to train to level 10 from your own rooms it encourages some people to stay inside their dungeons and hide.

Without the ability to train to the max level, it isn't much of a problem. Level 6 or 7 I think for the Training Room, maybe 8 but that is seriously pushing it. After that it could be going into battle, the Combat Pit eliminated purpose for the Training Room really. I don't think we should really force them to be at least level 4 though. It is like Bomberman Jetters game when they made the game annoying by creating blocks in the path that only the secondary character could destroy with his special ability (Which was worthless otherwise)

Oh yeah and how about I mention the Scavanger Room! Instead of wasting our time trying to fix the Combat Pit, a clone of the Training Room, we try and fix the Scavanger Room. That was actually something entirerly new anyways. There is your room Hapuga.

Zander353
February 28th, 2010, 21:16
I could go without a combat pit, I would rather not, but I can xD
just as long as the training room can not level your creatures all the way up. But still, in my opinion all the combat room does is add more flavor, which is good last time i checked xD

Evi
February 28th, 2010, 21:30
Training, why? Because we're making a game and that does widely effect the gameplay. It means Imps have a higher value.

I am currently watching a Lets Play of Dungeon Keeper 1, and he doesn't give a crap if he loses a Imp. :p

I agree with Madkill's suggestion of Imp training, very slow, slower than Dk2's exp for them while digging/claiming/humping walls.

Metal Gear Rex
February 28th, 2010, 21:32
I am currently watching a Lets Play of Dungeon Keeper 1, and he doesn't give a crap if he loses a Imp. :p

I agree with Madkill's suggestion of Imp training, very slow, slower than Dk2's exp for them while digging/claiming/humping walls.

A trained Imp I might add.

Are you talking more so about the 1.3 way? In one of the later versions of DK2 they increased the training rate of the Imp because it was too slow.

Evi
February 28th, 2010, 21:35
A trained Imp I might add.

Are you talking more so about the 1.3 way? In one of the later versions of DK2 they increased the training rate of the Imp because it was too slow.

His Imps were are level 5-7.

Yeah, that slow.

Hapuga
February 28th, 2010, 22:08
Oh and I end this arguement here or rather on your next reply since you will reply unless to prove me wrong that you love to argue like this, and thus ruin threads by forcing closure.


Not very nice of you. First, you force your opinion, that I disagree on, by closing further debates. Second, you skip any arguments made. If it has "DK2" in it somewhere, you immediately oppose it.

Have it your way.

I still think that we should go beyond 10 levels with having about 4-5 levels in dummy training, spilling minor blood up to level 8-10, and rampaging further on after up to level 20-30-40.

A New Room
February 28th, 2010, 22:55
The interesting thing is that nothing is going to get decided this way. I say we leave the Combat pit to the side for a bit.

Now what is this business with the higher level cap?

What would these new levels bring if it were to be included?

Metal Gear Rex
February 28th, 2010, 23:02
The interesting thing is that nothing is going to get decided this way. I say we leave the Combat pit to the side for a bit.

Now what is this business with the higher level cap?

What would these new levels bring if it were to be included?

Would there be

If we include that I can add some strong reasos as to why it should be in only Skirmish and Multiplayer as an Add On to combat levels, toggle thing so we don't have to force it for those who don't want it, and for those who want it can use it.

Simply because the difficulty level... To make the last level most difficult we have to use higher levels like level 20 Avatar and Knights, samurais and real high level stuff. Other wise if we don't, it means people can overlevel and kill them without any real challange. But this also means we force the player into a long stressful game to train, which might not be good.

Imagine DK1 final invasion at that level, yikes...

Or facing more and more of those DK2 final level invasions just to get stronger to kill the level 100 (Exageration but you still get the point) King Reginald?

Hapuga
February 28th, 2010, 23:32
If we include that I can add some strong reasos as to why it should be in only Skirmish and Multiplayer as an Add On to combat levels, toggle thing so we don't have to force it for those who don't want it, and for those who want it can use it.

Simply because the difficulty level... To make the last level most difficult we have to use higher levels like level 20 Avatar and Knights, samurais and real high level stuff. Other wise if we don't, it means people can overlevel and kill them without any real challange. But this also means we force the player into a long stressful game to train, which might not be good.

Imagine DK1 final invasion at that level, yikes...

Or facing more and more of those DK2 final level invasions just to get stronger to kill the level 100 (Exageration but you still get the point) King Reginald?

What does "overlevel" mean? How can you "overlevel" in a game with limited training and monsters?

Leveling simply gives a +parry, block, evade, dodge, attack rating, life, mana etc.

You put too much emphasis on the level. Give one uber spell to level 1 and he pwns everyone. now, ofc, thats imbalanced.

Leveling should be an addition, a reward for a creature, a small bonus that still adds a little something to it's power.

I really don't like the level 10 system because it's like we train so quickly up to level 8, fight 2 more levels and here's the cellar. It is stupid, how can you get so perfect so soon? There is no limit for perfection, remember?

I suggested levels as a way to make your army more defined. Creatures may get more hp/mp/other on lower levels (1-10) and less on 10-20, for example. But still, it will play a role when you put effort in protecting, training and rescuing your creatures.

Your view on levels, MGR, is very... how to say... orthodox. You see it as a primary attribute of power and dominance.


I want to move away from that, because that is OLD and BORING and every damn game has it today. Get X creatures of Y type to level Z and rush. BORING. If I want that kind of a game I can always play DK 1/2. No need to make another DK 1/2 with new graphs.

That's why I suggested to include Iron (remember my iron idea?). To make blacksmiths, to make armours and weapons, to have alchemist's lab (or how it was called?) for enchants and mutations, to make different classes of same creature types, to make a high level cap that would be very HARD to reach, to make unique and interesting creatures/rooms. Combat Pit has a lot of lore in it, it is a way to entertain. It can be left even without any strong purpose like leveling, as a temple of some sort, for creatures to increase moods.

Now that's a game I would like to play, not another dig-rock-make-many-overpowered-level-10-creatures-and-rush game. Such game has very little replayability. That's why nobody plays DK2 online (one of the reasons). Because everyone knows how it will go. Whoever is faster to make 10-15 BK's level 5-6 to rush. Everyone who doesn't follow this tactic sucks big time. Cool.

Metal Gear Rex
February 28th, 2010, 23:58
What does "overlevel" mean? How can you "overlevel" in a game with limited training and monsters?

Leveling simply gives a +parry, block, evade, dodge, attack rating, life, mana etc.

You put too much emphasis on the level. Give one uber spell to level 1 and he pwns everyone. now, ofc, thats imbalanced.

Leveling should be an addition, a reward for a creature, a small bonus that still adds a little something to it's power.

I really don't like the level 10 system because it's like we train so quickly up to level 8, fight 2 more levels and here's the cellar. It is stupid, how can you get so perfect so soon? There is no limit for perfection, remember?

I suggested levels as a way to make your army more defined. Creatures may get more hp/mp/other on lower levels (1-10) and less on 10-20, for example. But still, it will play a role when you put effort in protecting, training and rescuing your creatures.

Your view on levels, MGR, is very... how to say... orthodox. You see it as a primary attribute of power and dominance.


I want to move away from that, because that is OLD and BORING and every damn game has it today. Get X creatures of Y type to level Z and rush. BORING. If I want that kind of a game I can always play DK 1/2. No need to make another DK 1/2 with new graphs.

That's why I suggested to include Iron (remember my iron idea?). To make blacksmiths, to make armours and weapons, to have alchemist's lab (or how it was called?) for enchants and mutations, to make different classes of same creature types, to make a high level cap that would be very HARD to reach, to make unique and interesting creatures/rooms. Combat Pit has a lot of lore in it, it is a way to entertain. It can be left even without any strong purpose like leveling, as a temple of some sort, for creatures to increase moods.

Now that's a game I would like to play, not another dig-rock-make-many-overpowered-level-10-creatures-and-rush game. Such game has very little replayability. That's why nobody plays DK2 online (one of the reasons). Because everyone knows how it will go. Whoever is faster to make 10-15 BK's level 5-6 to rush. Everyone who doesn't follow this tactic sucks big time. Cool.

I'm sorry but I'm guessing a Level 10 Troll is so weak compared to my level 3 Dark Mistress. Well do you know how long it will take to level that far? You make it sound like an hour to level 10 not including resting eating, other tasks, and payday leaving trips, is done within seconds! Of course it is not, so stop speaking of it so easily.

It takes a long time to train already, and "overleveling" is going up to that new max level making everything so easy. The level 20 invasion would be nothing if my creatures were level 13 or 14... But with the fighting the enemy keeper and being to careful keeper I am (Not letting anyone die but no doing the save trick) I could get to level 17 eventually and wipe out the Avatar.

Not use the trick, that's how to come around it, but the same logic can be used on some things you mentioned as well like the Black Knights.

My suggestion, find yourself a new game.

Why is it that you seem bent more on attacking me with aggression than my ideas?

Yes you can add on new ideas but changing the ideas becomes a bit more difficult as the sacrifice of the old system must be made.

And there are alot of reasons why nobody plays DK2 online, one of them being the many cheap things in DK2, well that can be solved with game settings. It is also very difficult to get it to work at times and that can be stressful. I speak from experiance.

Yeah thanks for pointing out the Black Knight trick, you know that does suck. That some people are actually so weak and noobish that after playing for so long they still must rely on such cheap tricks in order to win.

Have you ever played DK1? There are alot more fixed things in there, and things that were exploits they did fix in DK2 but some of those things were just fixed to an unfun and unfair thing, example is the Skeleton and Boulder Trap. One fixed thing as I previously mentioned is the not leveling up to level 10 so easily within your own dungeon to prevent locking yourself in and hiding cowardly. Although due to some other unfair things in there it kind of undid it.

I'm so sorry but it seems I've made a terrible mistake. Yes why I didn't reply to you was this. You are very stubborn. Live with it. I am very stubborn, I admit it. I know it and you may as well. I've come to this conclusion by watching our previous arguments as well as yours with others.

Stubbornness runs in my family so I am used to dealing with stubborn people, so I know the only way to get rid of that person's arguement is to ignore it since they will keep going until they win. I also know the fighting doesn't lead anywhere good, the Maiden suggestion is a good example of that.

You kept fighting and fighting to make sure the Maiden was something completely broken and a clone, which came to my surprise for someone who seems rather fond of DK2 style gameplay and makes such referances so you should be used to clones and broken features.

It is a suggestion, that's why we're trying to improve it and the arguing did nothing. That is why I didn't want to reply, to stop the arguing because it would only destroy any chance of changing this. My mistake in feeding you Hapuga.

Hapuga
March 1st, 2010, 00:11
Good point on stubbornness.

I see a good game from my height and experience. You see from yours.
I want the game to be like that. You want the other way.

Now tell me please, what's wrong with that?

This is getting offtopic.

So lets end this.

PS I still think that a mistress with fireballs and healing is an overpwning fail :D

Metal Gear Rex
March 1st, 2010, 00:20
Good point on stubbornness.

I see a good game from my height and experience. You see from yours.
I want the game to be like that. You want the other way.

Alright, well I think this is gonna be a never ending thing because either way it takes a 3rd party higher up to decide and we don't even know who that is... Or who they are...


Now tell me please, what's wrong with that?

The fact that we're human and designed for war?


This is getting offtopic.

So lets end this.

Alright... The training idea is getting a bit out of hand, my opinion still lies in multiplayer and skirmish options because if as you stated it can lead to more gameplay. I am unsure about singleplayer because of the forced as it is also fixed levels but I think Skirmish and Multiplayer are good on that because it is optional and can keep the fun going. I'd try it even if I don't like it because I'm still curious how it will work out. (I could even mess with DK2 to test this going up to "level 20" but that would take forever)


PS I still think that a mistress with fireballs and healing is an overpwning fail :D

Yes but she was the answer to my dreams. :P

A New Room
March 1st, 2010, 21:20
I think that your ideas may just be a little bit too radical...

Zander353
March 2nd, 2010, 01:24
honestly I was with the leveling to 20 but Rex had a good point.. if u went to high it would prove to be very problematic with the campaign. having creatures with weapons would be different. Would they use their money that they get from payday for weapons and armor instead of just gambling? that does seem like a fun idea as long as you don't make it to complicated. This way also has it where there is money circulate in your dungeon and u get some of the money back from payday from when the creatures buy armor and weapons. In fact, it is like a game I played awhile back called Majest. which is very fun. I for one am all for the weapons idea and think it should be implemented! :)

Hapuga
March 2nd, 2010, 13:36
honestly I was with the leveling to 20 but Rex had a good point.. if u went to high it would prove to be very problematic with the campaign. having creatures with weapons would be different. Would they use their money that they get from payday for weapons and armor instead of just gambling? that does seem like a fun idea as long as you don't make it to complicated. This way also has it where there is money circulate in your dungeon and u get some of the money back from payday from when the creatures buy armor and weapons. In fact, it is like a game I played awhile back called Majest. which is very fun. I for one am all for the weapons idea and think it should be implemented! :)

Again, the problem of most people is that they judge the system they have never seen. I'm working with a 100 lvl strategy now, and it works out PERFECTLY fine. The game's called Majesty 2: The Kingdom Sim

A New Room
March 2nd, 2010, 18:40
When you say you are working with a 100 lvl strategy do you mean that you are working on one for WftO, or you have changed something to allow it in DK game, or that there is one in Majesty 2?

Or just that you and this 100 lvl strategy have the same job, and he is pretty good at it?

If it is the first one, could you try and explain it clearly, last time there were to many ideas to comprehend at once.

Hapuga
March 2nd, 2010, 21:08
When you say you are working with a 100 lvl strategy do you mean that you are working on one for WftO, or you have changed something to allow it in DK game, or that there is one in Majesty 2?

Or just that you and this 100 lvl strategy have the same job, and he is pretty good at it?

If it is the first one, could you try and explain it clearly, last time there were to many ideas to comprehend at once.

I am making a mod for Majesty 2 with my team. read here (http://fanfantasy.info/_en/)

The point in more-than-10-level-system is simple: It is more effective in terms of balance. It is able to show how powerful your cleature is by implementing that "learning" element into the game. A creature that killed millions deserved to be better at combat than a creature that is not so well advanced.

I wrote about this before, but I think people missed the point. In 10 level system we have skills spread out through all levels. 1 skill at lvl 3 2 at lvl 5 and 3 on lvl 10. Now this assumes that a creature has learned all it could at level 10 and will never improve beyond that. Glass ceiling? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_ceiling) :D A more-than-10-level system offers another approach. You still may have your skills spread from level 3 to 10, but you CAN train beyond level 10. You are still getting a tiny bit better. Because you're a so much experienced veteran badass, this training will be very slow, but it will still be able to provide some pros for your minion.

I think what many thought is that you have a chaotic system with many levels where all creatures are imbalanced because they level up quickly and overpower bosses etc. No. You get all the base skills before you reach the "ceiling" of level 10 or maybe 15. This is the levels when you will learn all your talents. Your further levelling is simply the mastering of these skills in combat and getting more and more brutal, AGAIN VERY SLOWLY.

I think it is a great RPG feature to implement. Again, the implementation of such feature is very easy, and it sure may provide a kick.

A New Room
March 2nd, 2010, 23:09
That idea sounds a hell of a lot better when there is less rage in it :p

I like it.

Mothrayas
March 3rd, 2010, 18:20
I am making a mod for Majesty 2 with my team. read here (http://fanfantasy.info/_en/)

The point in more-than-10-level-system is simple: It is more effective in terms of balance. It is able to show how powerful your cleature is by implementing that "learning" element into the game. A creature that killed millions deserved to be better at combat than a creature that is not so well advanced.

I wrote about this before, but I think people missed the point. In 10 level system we have skills spread out through all levels. 1 skill at lvl 3 2 at lvl 5 and 3 on lvl 10. Now this assumes that a creature has learned all it could at level 10 and will never improve beyond that. Glass ceiling? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_ceiling) :D A more-than-10-level system offers another approach. You still may have your skills spread from level 3 to 10, but you CAN train beyond level 10. You are still getting a tiny bit better. Because you're a so much experienced veteran badass, this training will be very slow, but it will still be able to provide some pros for your minion.

I think what many thought is that you have a chaotic system with many levels where all creatures are imbalanced because they level up quickly and overpower bosses etc. No. You get all the base skills before you reach the "ceiling" of level 10 or maybe 15. This is the levels when you will learn all your talents. Your further levelling is simply the mastering of these skills in combat and getting more and more brutal, AGAIN VERY SLOWLY.

I think it is a great RPG feature to implement. Again, the implementation of such feature is very easy, and it sure may provide a kick.

I approve of this idea.

Now there's still the Training Room / Combat Pit problem.
IMO Combat Pit shouldn't be usable for creatures of level 4 or below, and Training Room shouldn't be usable for creatures of level 7 and up.

A New Room
March 9th, 2010, 18:52
I'm interested what would be the reaction if the developers decided not to put the combat pit in WftO?

Mothrayas
March 9th, 2010, 18:56
The DK2 fans would collectively lynch the WftO devs.

Or at least, not be pleased with the decision.

Hapuga
March 9th, 2010, 19:46
Who are these mysterious "WftO devs" you are talking about? =)

Metal Gear Rex
March 9th, 2010, 19:47
Who are these mysterious "WftO devs" you are talking about? =)

I'm pretty sure they're in hiding to avoid the work... XD

A New Room
March 10th, 2010, 00:32
Who are these mysterious "WftO devs" you are talking about? =)

Is just a hypothetical.

If there are any Developers tasked with the making of solid decisions, I really would like to know their opinions.

Then again this could be a clever trap to get all Dungeon Keeper fans to gut each other... :P

Madkill
March 10th, 2010, 16:00
Going from Hapuga's idea, maybe if the main level was stopped. However the creature would gain a second ring of petals, this means that it is more 'advanced'. More advanced in 'what' depends on what creature it is, so for a vampire its attacking spells would be more deadly, for a dragon its fire breath would be more vicious and it'd have more health, for a Warlock all of its spells would be more chaotically devastating, that could mean more damage and less time in its recharge rate.

So rather than having it surpass '10' it just gets a slowly growing circle of petals, and the one creature would have to do a lot of killing/training to get all the petals and it doesn't just stop there, the creature will still gain more experience and its attributes will improve.

Remember, Dungeon Keeper I had creature stats for a reason so lets expand on that instead of just adding more overall-levels to the creature. :spider:
...Nothing better than making an enemy keeper think twice about your high-levelled creatures.

QwentyJ
March 30th, 2010, 19:22
I think it should be so:
• The original level 10 system
• All creatures can train to Level 5 in the training room
• Imps can get levels in the training room and by digging
• Dungeon Special


Pretty much agree with this. Though, might I make a small suggestion; Imps gain 5 levels by working and 5 by training/fighting. How about that?

sly
June 1st, 2011, 13:22
I don't know. I really feel that Levels 9-10 or equivalent should be gained by combat only. I suppose that clashes with being able to have higher levels but perhaps that is what combat pit can be for.

Ok... Perhaps this:

Training Room trains to Level 4 at a speed only just below normal combat. At Level 6-7 it is perhaps slower, a noticeable difference, and at Level 8-9 it becomes quite inefficient. Combat Pit can't train creatures lower than Level 4 and can train to Level 10 but is consistently 20%-30% less experience gained per hit than actual combat equivalent. Combat... well that can train you from Level 1-10 with no percentage deducted.

This means that Combat Pit doesn't make Training Room redundant at early stages and that Training Room can train creatures to reasonable levels, abet at a slower pace. Combat still rules.

I like your idea ;)

and what about integrating it in a lvl 20 system?
- all creatures can train to Level 8 in the training room but leveling becomes slower and slower until lvl 8
- 6-10 in the combat pit, then leveling only in battles until 20
- Imps can lvlup to 10 by digging, then leveling 10-20 in the training room

A limit in lvling is needed I think since making an unlimited lvling system would bring up some concerns; what if the "transfer creature" thing is being re-introduced (or something similar)
Remember those little bonus boxes? I fogot their name:) transferring a let's say lvl 99 creature through most of the levels would ruin the whole game imho...

Smygarn
June 9th, 2011, 20:44
Hello everyone.

I hope I am not too late to make a suggestion of my own, because I find it a rather interesting and solid way to begin my time on this forum, by providing my idea for how Training could work.

000=============================================== ==000

Speaking as a general player, I was always favoring both training methods out of several reasons. Because DK1 allowed to train and upgrade units, but without a limit. DK2 added a limit but did not add anything else to expand on the concept.
My Idea I had is a bit complicated, so I will be using a picture to help explain. I will be trying to expand on the ideas of both training methods and make a combined result.
Lets start with showing my picture that displays the graph of a Mistress (DK1 Abilities).

http://i955.photobucket.com/albums/ae33/Smygarn777/MistressGraph.jpg

(I will be referring to the Training room and Combat pit in this)

This method I am going to describe here is dividing the unit abilities into "Experience" and "Ability". A creature can train his Experience in the "Training Room". Once it reaches a proper level of experience, it can begin to train on a new ability in the "Combat Pit".

In the case of the picture above, Penumbra is a level 7 Mistress currently training in the "Training Room". She is on an high level enough to start training in the Combat Pit to unlock Speed but is continuing to improve her Experience.
A creature cannot train an ability if the previous ability is not unlocked already, or if the creature is of an inappropriate level.
Some? creatures can unlock an ability in combat, assuming it is strong enough to do so. Others will require the "Combat Pit" in order to acquire their abilities.

(Some questions I asked myself while thinking this up)

Question: Why is this way going to be any different?
Answer: I like having two rooms for training a creature, so one for training the raw experience and one for refining the abilities of said creature would work pretty well as I imagine it.
But it does not really expand other than giving each room its own role for completing the creature, but at least better than them colliding on the same front.

Question: What about the limit applied in Dungeon Keeper 2?
Answer: It would be free to discuss and I have read previous posts, but I all favor the limit of level 8 (Combat pit extent). So I would suggest granting a limit of 8 in the "Training Room". There is no need to apply a limit in the Combat Pit, since the creature has to be able to unlock an ability in order to use it.
I suggest a limit on Level 8, but who am I to decide?

000=============================================== =000
In this idea I was assuming that creatures could freely use the "Combat Pit" instead of having to be dropped into the room. So the actual "Combat Pit" is just a specialized room for the creatures to develop their abilities instead of scaling the restriction of level 4 to level 8.

I hardly even think there is a point in having two rooms do the same thing, so I thought perhaps we'd split the creature Levels into 2 kinds. one thats for unlocking abilities and one for improving the raw attributes. I didnt see any of this posted earlier, may have missed it. If so, I am sorry for stealing the idea.

Although, if I had to pick between the two methods, I'd go with Dungeon Keeper 2 because the training style in the first game encourages hiding and thus takes away from the fun of playing multi player.

kyle
June 9th, 2011, 21:31
We had the idea of putting a limit of 8 or 9 I think it was, and then the rest has to be achieved through combat, making level 10's rarer and more valuable.

Metal Gear Rex
June 9th, 2011, 21:42
We had the idea of putting a limit of 8 or 9 I think it was, and then the rest has to be achieved through combat, making level 10's rarer and more valuable.

It was Level 9, I remember the conversation we had about that, but I don't remember who came up with the idea. You also mentioned the Combat Pit was going to be removed I think.

One advantage to the Level 9 limit was that the powerful Level 10 spells like Word of Power could not be obtained so easily amongst so many Units. It also would add an effective drawback to the strategy where Players would wall themselves in.

natchoguy
June 10th, 2011, 00:10
I, at the very least, think that there should be a training limit before the higher levels only obtainable by actual combat. Level 9 and 10 would be fine. Being locked in is much too cheap and uninteresting. I think that it would be cool if you sent your level 8 creatures to train on neutrals too gain the final amounts. This way, there is more competition between keepers in a different way. In fact, a race to see whose creatures find and kill the boss creature (pretty sure they were accepted) fastest seems like a nice idea (that is, if they are on the map)

amcoops
June 24th, 2011, 00:16
How can people prefer DK1's method? It's boring, just stick them in the training room for the whole game and you have a perfect army. DK2's method is much better, however, I noticed they're not including the Combat Pit in WftO, it's going to be training room to level 9 and real combat to 10. I think that's a good compromise, I do think the training room cap should be brought down to 6 though, making level 10s much more valuable to a keeper.

I want the reaction to a level 10 to be...

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/entries/icons/medium/000/004/077/Raisins_Face.jpg?1286515652

...rather than...

http://blogs.mozillamessaging.com/docs/files/2011/06/whatever-150x150.jpg

...do you see?

natchoguy
June 24th, 2011, 00:36
I don't know, level 8 seems sufficient enough but I get your point. And can I get feedback on my comment; don't like leaving stuff hanging out there

Metal Gear Rex
June 24th, 2011, 00:54
With DK1's combat system, it is much more difficult to train Units up a Level through combat. The reason is because you only gain experience when hitting enemies. Through this method, training up a large amount of Units is difficult as not everyone can get the same amount of Hits in before the enemies are dead. With this method, even with a Training Cap of 9, it will be difficult to reach Level 10. Especially since you'll probably have about 20-25 Creatures on the average map. You won't be able to get them all to Level 10.

In DK2, Units gained Experience just by being in a battle. It didn't really matter if they got to attack at all, they just had to be there. So the amount of experience every unit got was equal, and they gained Experience based on how long the battle was. With DK2's slower combat, it made it even easier to train up Units. Even with a Max Training Rate of 8, it was still pretty easy to get Level 10 Units. Therefore, I don't think it is really a fair comparison.

Setting the Training Cap to Level 6 is going way too far. It doesn't take that long to get a Level 6 Unit, so the Training Room will be put out of Use pretty early. It also will make obtaining a Level 10 Unit so difficult that unless it is litterally given to you, you won't ever see it. It also will put a great limit on Spell Casters, as they won't be able to get a lot of the Spells they really need to survive better/be effective Units.

I think you're also underestimating the power of a Level 10 Unit. They're going to have a better stat increase, and also have access to Level 10 Spells. They're going to be practically your Elites, and will definately stand out in battle. Sure they won't be powerful enough to take out 5+ Units on their own, but they'd be pretty broken if they could.

amcoops
June 24th, 2011, 01:32
I wasn't aware how the combat experience was going to work, I thought it was going to be like DK2 (which I abused :D). I still think 9 is too high though, but I suppose it really needs testing.

I used to abuse DK2's training by turning a creature against me by slapping him, knocking him out, taking him to jail and then plonking him on a single bridge tile in lava. I then put all my level 4 vampires on a single bridge tile nearby, so my vampires would gain experience by constantly casting "slow" on the hero goblin, and neither could reach with their melee combat :D. However, as soon as my vampires reached level 8, they tore the poor little goblin to shreds :(.....:D.

Lquiz
June 24th, 2011, 03:00
Setting the Training Cap to Level 6 is going way too far. It doesn't take that long to get a Level 6 Unit, so the Training Room will be put out of Use pretty early. It also will make obtaining a Level 10 Unit so difficult that unless it is litterally given to you, you won't ever see it. It also will put a great limit on Spell Casters, as they won't be able to get a lot of the Spells they really need to survive better/be effective Units.


Who's to say what's "way too far"? We can overhaul this game as much as we like.

You could make getting to level 6 in the training room time-equivalent to getting to level 10 in DK1. Whack up the rate of XP gained in battle to something like 4x the training room, and then chuck in camps of neutral hostiles scattered around as a sort of training resource. These camps should guard specials, gold seams and unalligned creatures. This would make it a constant battle for XP, as well as a battle for gold.

I want level 10s to be something special. No creature should "need" to be level 10 to function, having a level 10 spell caster should be game changing, not average, otherwise it's going to be a stalemate, and we don't want stalemates.

Please don't put it to level 9 in the training room, otherwise we're going to have boring games.

MeinCookie
June 24th, 2011, 07:06
I am personally for a level 4-6 cap on the training room and always have been, preferably with the later levels being cumulatively slower - possibly a higher cap if the training effectiveness really slows down. You can't become a karate master by bashing a manikin all day, you have to actually spar against real people. You can only advance so far against stationary enemies who aren't actually anything like what you'll be facing when real combat comes around. The Combat Pit offers a more realistic, more advanced take on combat which quite frankly would help minions more. No it still isn't a perfect representation of a real combat situation, but it would actually be far more useful in preparing a host of minions for it. There would still have to be a cap on levelling in the combat pit of 8-9, but it would force a strategic decision if you sought to polish off your creatures training with a couple of levels in the combat pit, or skip it and attack earlier, levelling the remaining levels after the training room in combat

The Combat Pit quite simply made sense, though its implementation wasn't perfect in DK 2 - taking note that this, however, is not DK 2 but WftO - and it is the perfect opportunity to improve on what was one of the better mechanics, conceptually and practically, of DK 2.

Quite frankly though, no consensus was ever reached. Also...



Without the ability to train to the max level, it isn't much of a problem. Level 6 or 7 I think for the Training Room, maybe 8 but that is seriously pushing it. After that it could be going into battle, the Combat Pit eliminated purpose for the Training Room really. I don't think we should really force them to be at least level 4 though. It is like Bomberman Jetters game when they made the game annoying by creating blocks in the path that only the secondary character could destroy with his special ability (Which was worthless otherwise)

My ideal suggestion which I believe still has merit:


I don't know. I really feel that Levels 9-10 or equivalent should be gained by combat only. I suppose that clashes with being able to have higher levels but perhaps that is what combat pit can be for.

Ok... Perhaps this:

Training Room trains to Level 4 at a speed only just below normal combat. At Level 6-7 it is perhaps slower, a noticeable difference, and at Level 8-9 it becomes quite inefficient. Combat Pit can't train creatures lower than Level 4 and can train to Level 10 but is consistently 20%-30% less experience gained per hit than actual combat equivalent. Combat... well that can train you from Level 1-10 with no percentage deducted.

This means that Combat Pit doesn't make Training Room redundant at early stages and that Training Room can train creatures to reasonable levels, abet at a slower pace. Combat still rules.

Keeper_Infernal
June 24th, 2011, 09:12
I have an idea, why not making the training room train creatures till level 4 Really fast, then having a combat pit train the from level 4 to level 8 and then let the realistic combat do its magic at level 10.

Why will combat pit be less better then training room till level 4?
b/c we can make it be too dangerous for them. Lets add a death percentage to the pit. Creatures who are unexperienced will have a high chance to die in combat pit, and at level 4~5+ it will be much more lower. This feature will make the combat pit much more realistic and balanced, thus making the training room a usefull room, even if we have a combat pit.We can allso make it have a higher precentage of death, if creatrures of lower level fights with level 7 veteran creatures, thus we can reduce the abuse of training a low level ageinst a veteran creature to get creatures training super fast.

what do you say guys?

Patrician
June 24th, 2011, 20:44
I have an idea, why not making the training room train creatures till level 4 Really fast, then having a combat pit train the from level 4 to level 8 and then let the realistic combat do its magic at level 10.

Why will combat pit be less better then training room till level 4?
b/c we can make it be too dangerous for them. Lets add a death percentage to the pit. Creatures who are unexperienced will have a high chance to die in combat pit, and at level 4~5+ it will be much more lower. This feature will make the combat pit much more realistic and balanced, thus making the training room a usefull room, even if we have a combat pit.We can allso make it have a higher precentage of death, if creatrures of lower level fights with level 7 veteran creatures, thus we can reduce the abuse of training a low level ageinst a veteran creature to get creatures training super fast.

what do you say guys?
That's actually a bloody good idea!

amcoops
June 25th, 2011, 00:02
In DK2 I tend to heal my creatures as they fight in the combat pit, so there will be no risk of them dying in WftO. Are you suggesting that the death of a creature could happen at random during a combat pit fight if their level is below 4? That could work I guess.

Skarok
June 25th, 2011, 10:23
In DK2 you can set a dying chance to the pit, but I'm not sure if it works, never tested it. But if so, I guess it only happens when the creature would go to the dying state, so you can simply heal the creature or pick it up and drop it in the lair like the AI does. I personally liked the Combat pit better that just the training room in DK1. You needed to watch your creatures, if you simply drop them in the pit it would need ages for them to reach level 8. You'd also be in trouble when the enemy attacks and most of your creatures are weakened in the pit. But the instant death idea is really good, but it would be better if the chance of the instant death would count for the high leveld creatures too. Not that high like for low leveld creatures, but let it still be possible. If the trainings rate in the pit would be nerfed to the rate of the training room or even more it would be perfect. But there could be the problem that this slows down the gameplay to much, maybe just the instant death chance would be enough. That would make the combat pit more dangerous to use and you really have to watch out for the fighters instead of simply leave them in the training room.

Keeper_Infernal
June 26th, 2011, 10:42
So you like my idea? :)

Sharok,what i meant to say is that evey one on the pit has a death chance,but veteran creatures has much less chance,and levels 1-4 are most likly to die.This how the training rooms kicks in,a costy,yet life saving trainin for creatures at low levels.

Edit:Maybe we can let kyle know of this suggestion,or its to early yet?

Mothrayas
June 26th, 2011, 10:50
Blargh, combat pit.

I think the current 'training room to level 9, level 10 through combat' is still a better idea IMO.

Also, unless you're doing really stupid things (and the game itself is not doing stupid things), training in the combat pit would still be easy enough.

Keeper_Infernal
June 26th, 2011, 11:02
Blargh, combat pit.

I think the current 'training room to level 9, level 10 through combat' is still a better idea IMO.

Also, unless you're doing really stupid things (and the game itself is not doing stupid things), training in the combat pit would still be easy enough.

i have allready said that the combat pit will be effective till level 8..

Mothrayas
June 26th, 2011, 11:06
i have allready said that the combat pit will be effective till level 8..

Yes, I know that. I'm still for not having the Combat Pit at all.

Keeper_Infernal
June 26th, 2011, 11:13
Why? This is such a cool and creative idea,why not?

Skarok
June 26th, 2011, 11:34
So you like my idea? :)

Sharok,what i meant to say is that evey one on the pit has a death chance,but veteran creatures has much less chance,and levels 1-4 are most likly to die.This how the training rooms kicks in,a costy,yet life saving trainin for creatures at low levels.

Edit:Maybe we can let kyle know of this suggestion,or its to early yet?

Yeah I like your idea. The best thing would be that low leveld creatures can die by the first two hits. Then would surely no one try to train in the pit in the beginning. Also high costs for the pit would be good. But maybe it would be possible to combine the training room and the combat pit? If you build a big enough training room, then there will be an arena in the middle. It musn't be a real arena that is below the ground, even just a cordon can do this.

Keeper_Infernal
June 26th, 2011, 11:40
Umm that will be wierd,since the arena is like a kind of entretiment,not a task/job like the training room,the casio shold be combined with the pit if you gonna do any combinations between rooms..

edit:ignore the wierd unrelated link on the casino word,dont have a clue how did it happen...

Skarok
June 26th, 2011, 11:56
Well it doesn't increase the happiness of your creatures in DK2, they just come and watch. Maybe this impended creatures from becoming unhappy because they have no work to do, but I'm not sure about this. But even if it entertains them, the main task is to train your creatures. And if it'd be combined with the training room creatures can also come to watch the fight. That could make the pit even more harder to use, if you have a fight in the arena all the creatures in the training room willl watch the fight or will be slightly distracted what decreases their trainings rate. But thats just a idea, I personally like them more as seperate rooms too.

Keeper_Infernal
June 26th, 2011, 12:06
Umm it sounds like a semi dojo,were the masters shows the moves they need to practice on.. that actually sounds nice.. :)
But it defenetly not suposed to be a pit,rater a stage. And i still stick with my opinion,that they shold be seperated.The training room resembles training for a fight,and the combat pit resemble the "test".They shold be seperated.

sly
June 30th, 2011, 16:15
Actually this "arena" idea has some potential: this room would fill the role of DK2's combat pit but also as an entertaining facility where creatures cheering at the arena would gain massive happiness?

Regarding how the fights would work: You would be able to form two teams, the room would contain the fighting ground itself and two pits for the teams where you drop the creatures. If you put some warlocks for each team, they would heal their team members thus increasing the efficiency of the training.

I still go with the training room + combat pit idea, nothing is more boring than fortifying yourself in and wait till all your creatures train up to lvl 10, 9 or whatever the limit will be... Please bring some interaction/life into our dungeon! ;)

I have already read an quite interesting idea, but don't remember whose it was: what if the training room would only upgrade the stats of the creatures and abilities could only be upgraded in an other combat pit-like room?

Keeper_Infernal
June 30th, 2011, 20:42
Sly,listed to yourself, not only that the idea is already broken,(happieness+fast training)you also offered a way to abuse the room,for a never ending fun and training.. (warlock heal) You want entreteiment while your cowardly hide behind you walls? build a combat pit,for the fun and training of the creatures and the keeper.

natchoguy
June 30th, 2011, 21:10
what if the pit was only for prisoners? it would only be a room to make creatures happy if there's no work; maybe even add a creature connected to it (prison=>skeleton, torture=>ghost or simply attracting someone)

Keeper_Infernal
July 1st, 2011, 08:18
Like in grick times,when they were throwing hopeless prisoners to a area and fight lions.. you want a creature who will raise after death at the pit? how about a death/enternal/undead gladiator? (personaly I will pick the enternal..) yet it makes the Pit a bit useless,since we have already the casino/tample/torture chamber (:mistress:) for the happienses thing.. I have another idea,why not making the pit avalabile to use only angeinst prisoners? the pit will give extra exp/happienses if a creature will win.(if he looses,the pit will release the lions to eat the prisoner,entreteining the crowd.. :horny:)

Yet,I belive my first idea was much better,I realy wanna see someone like Metal Rex/Mothrayas/Kyle feedbacking me on this.. (Moth,this time its not one of my suggestion its something general,so can we put the "patient virtue" away for once,Pleass?,same for you Rex..)

edit:I just realize that i have suggested natchoguy`s idea who is one post above me,subconscious.. Sorry Natcho.

natchoguy
July 1st, 2011, 21:27
nah, you're over complicating it. there will be NO casino in WftO. people are against using the pit for training purposes, so I made a different version. just make it a gladiator arena wannabe

Mothrayas
July 1st, 2011, 23:24
nah, you're over complicating it. there will be NO casino in WftO.

But there will be a tavern as a replacement instead.

natchoguy
July 1st, 2011, 23:41
how exactly will it work? there isn't a single page on it and the only info I have on it is that it's an accepted room for creature moral. This is a room decided on the old forum right?

kamikazecopilot
August 23rd, 2011, 21:53
Okay, I know it is a few months later since this thread has been touched. I came up with an idea that I think might be worth tossing around. Everyone is wishy-washy on the level cap. But I have an idea that might make the 20-30-40-ect. level cap more appealing.

Why not have auras that each creature radiates that becomes more powerful with each benchmark. Say level 10 Goblin (since it is a swarming-type) adds a bonus 5% to attack speed to every other creature of yours that is lower than level 10 (i.e. levels 1-9) because they are empowered by the presence of this more powerful creature. And if said Goblin hits level 20, the bonus bumps to 10%. So creatures 1-19 would gain 10% attack speed bonus. And the bonuses could not stack. Just the most powerful aura take priority, all others are moot.

Its just an idea. Flame away.

Metal Gear Rex
August 23rd, 2011, 21:58
Okay, I know it is a few months later since this thread has been touched. I came up with an idea that I think might be worth tossing around. Everyone is wishy-washy on the level cap. But I have an idea that might make the 20-30-40-ect. level cap more appealing.

Why not have auras that each creature radiates that becomes more powerful with each benchmark. Say level 10 Goblin (since it is a swarming-type) adds a bonus 5% to attack speed to every other creature of yours that is lower than level 10 (i.e. levels 1-9) because they are empowered by the presence of this more powerful creature. And if said Goblin hits level 20, the bonus bumps to 10%. So creatures 1-19 would gain 10% attack speed bonus. And the bonuses could not stack. Just the most powerful aura take priority, all others are moot.

An interesting idea, but I think that it moves away from the direction of the original Dungeon Keeper. The Level 10 cap is definately something that should be kept, for this game anyways.


Its just an idea. Flame away.

:flame_breath::flame_breath::flame_breath::flame_b reath::flame_breath:

You have been set on fire.

Dizzi
August 23rd, 2011, 22:00
Hey, didn't know there was a thread for training. I've been working on something that makes game play flow fluently and units useful from 0:00 to ∞. So it will include unit stats/training/battle/the lot. I'm still working on it but I'll make a big post in the suggestions hopefully next week. Will keep it concise as possible.

kamikazecopilot
August 24th, 2011, 04:15
An interesting idea, but I think that it moves away from the direction of the original Dungeon Keeper. The Level 10 cap is definately something that should be kept, for this game anyways.

So has it been confirmed that there is going to be a level-10 Cap? I am sorry if i seem like i am pulling teeth. As I was reading before work, there was the idea of the DK:Classic and DK:Beyond (or something of the sort) that talked about having the new system. If so, I guess I can code something that might be worth a true look-at. I downloaded the UDK and am going to play with it a bit, but then I am going to put some lines where my mouth is.

Would the DEVs be willing to talk about it more then?

Metal Gear Rex
August 24th, 2011, 08:30
So has it been confirmed that there is going to be a level-10 Cap? I am sorry if i seem like i am pulling teeth. As I was reading before work, there was the idea of the DK:Classic and DK:Beyond (or something of the sort) that talked about having the new system. If so, I guess I can code something that might be worth a true look-at. I downloaded the UDK and am going to play with it a bit, but then I am going to put some lines where my mouth is.

Would the DEVs be willing to talk about it more then?

Yeah pretty much a confirmation. As an added note, the Training Room will train units up to Level 9 only and Level 10 must be achieved through battle.

Galf1
August 24th, 2011, 23:32
The Training Room will train units up to Level 9 only and Level 10 must be achieved through battle.
Is this set in stone? As to me this still encourages avoiding battle until high levels. While I did dislike the combat pit from DK2 in the way it worked, I did like the concept.
A room for more advanced training, but it comes with more risk. I do like previous suggestions that if you tried to use low levels in this room that you run a high risk of them dieing while doing this, and by dieing I mean that
one of their buddy accidentally stabs them in a vital spot (like their face) because they're both inexperienced fighters (could be represented as a hit that does something like 5x damage and if it would knock out the creature it instead kills them), not that your imps were to busy to drag their unconscious butt back to their lair. It still needs a bit more refining, but I still prefer DK2's leveling scheme over DK1's. DK1's was an incredibly passive watch your creatures train and do nothing until they're strong enough to go kill your opponent. While DK2's was a much more active go after your opponents as your creatures can only get so strong if you just hang back and wait, which also added tension if the enemy was going to attack with higher leveled creatures at some point in time.

Metal Gear Rex
August 24th, 2011, 23:41
Is this set in stone? As to me this still encourages avoiding battle until high levels. While I did dislike the combat pit from DK2 in the way it worked, I did like the concept.
A room for more advanced training, but it comes with more risk. I do like previous suggestions that if you tried to use low levels in this room that you run a high risk of them dieing while doing this, and by dieing I mean that
one of their buddy accidentally stabs them in a vital spot (like their face) because they're both inexperienced fighters (could be represented as a hit that does something like 5x damage and if it would knock out the creature it instead kills them), not that your imps were to busy to drag their unconscious butt back to their lair. It still needs a bit more refining, but I still prefer DK2's leveling scheme over DK1's. DK1's was an incredibly passive watch your creatures train and do nothing until they're strong enough to go kill your opponent. While DK2's was a much more active go after your opponents as your creatures can only get so strong if you just hang back and wait, which also added tension if the enemy was going to attack with higher leveled creatures at some point in time.

Pretty much as far as I know, or is pretty close to being set in stone if it isn't already.

Neither the DK1 nor DK2 Training/EXP system worked out as well so comparing the two against each other doesn't do you much good. Don't forget that one problem with DK1's Training system was that you could gain experiance faster in the Training Room compared to real actual combat. I will most definately fix that. DK1 was probably closer to getting it right than DK2, it just had a few other flaws that weren't directly tied to the Training Room.

kamikazecopilot
August 26th, 2011, 01:35
Okay. Then I will leave this alone, then.

But I must say that I agree with the previous post and that going 1-9 in the training room keeps people away from battle until they have high level units. It is also a very big gold sink. So...there's my 2 coppers. But thank you for your consideration on that.

Metal Gear Rex
August 26th, 2011, 10:16
Okay. Then I will leave this alone, then.

But I must say that I agree with the previous post and that going 1-9 in the training room keeps people away from battle until they have high level units. It is also a very big gold sink. So...there's my 2 coppers. But thank you for your consideration on that.

The Combat Pit allowed Units to go up to Level 8, yet not too many Players, from my own experiance of playing multiplayer, were able to train their Units until they were Level 8 before they encountered a bunch of battles. The only way you would be able to pull something like that off is if you wall yourself in. However, I'm going to make sure that Players are usually punished by limitations for attempting that strategy.

Also, remember that I'm going to make sure that Units gain more experiance from battle than in training. For that same reason, I can't have the Combat Pit as it would give the Player the power to gain that kind of experiance while walling themselves in.

Galf1
August 29th, 2011, 09:36
Perhaps replace the old training room style with the combat pit entirely? Gold cost is now more hazard pay for your creatures, also makes training less passive and forces you to manage when you want to train and when you want your creatures to do other things. Also adds value to prisoners as training fodder, and adds risk to training, as if you train an the wrong time you could suddenly have a battle on your hands and a large portion of your population is injured from training. I know the training room is kind of iconic for DK, but I also want to check myself to see if I accidentally have my rose tinted goggles on. Coding for either shouldn't be too big of an issue, so it's more a question of style and feel.

Metal Gear Rex
August 29th, 2011, 13:09
Perhaps replace the old training room style with the combat pit entirely? Gold cost is now more hazard pay for your creatures, also makes training less passive and forces you to manage when you want to train and when you want your creatures to do other things. Also adds value to prisoners as training fodder, and adds risk to training, as if you train an the wrong time you could suddenly have a battle on your hands and a large portion of your population is injured from training. I know the training room is kind of iconic for DK, but I also want to check myself to see if I accidentally have my rose tinted goggles on. Coding for either shouldn't be too big of an issue, so it's more a question of style and feel.

One serious problem the Combat Pit has that I just realized is proper balance between the Creature and Hero side. The thing is, you can only train the Units you drop in there, which is usually a low amount. They also gain experiance as if they were in real battle. (EXP when hitting the target)

Both these things are a problem because the Hero Side will train their Units overall much faster. Since they have fewer Units, they can spread training out to their whole army quicker than the Creature Side.

An example is that perhaps you train 5 Units in the Combat Pit at one time. Say the differences between the Creature and Hero Side is something like 30 vs 10 Units. (Example!) The Hero Side will get the training experiance spread out to their whole army in two training sessions. The Creature Side, however, will require six. The last thing that's a problem is that the Heroes will generally train faster. Because Hero counterparts are stronger than Creature counterparts, Units recieve more experiance when hitting them. As a result, when in the Combat Pit fighting against each other, they'll Level Up faster as they're getting more EXP from hitting each other.

If there is no Training Room and only the Combat Pit, you could give Units a Training Value so you fix the second problem I mentioned. But the first problem is more noticable and serious, which cannot be easily fixed.

So a huge "No" to that idea and also to having the Combat Pit exist in general.

MeinCookie
August 29th, 2011, 14:20
What if the bloodless Training Room was Hero only, and the Combat Pit being more grisly and more martial was Keeper only?

Keeper has more creatures but they are weaker (on whole).
They wouldn't be able to train the bulk of them, but those they do train reach higher levels faster and are thus able to provide a core of a few 'elite' levelled creatures backed up a greater amount cannon fodder which is the bulk of the force. This is in sync with Keepers massing weaker creatures, because the bulk of their force is such.

Heroes have less creatures but they are stronger (on whole).
With the Heroes having the training room they are more likely to be able to give their creatures an equal training across the board. The entire force, rather than a small portion, is trained - but not as highly due to its speed limitations. This focuses on maximizing the strength of ever individual together equally which is also in sync with heroes.

I think that could work. It would balance out.

The early game layout would be like this, as an example:


Heroes (10)
10x creatures between levels 4-5

Keeper (16)
12x creatures at level 1
4x creatures between levels 8-9

That could work yes? Also take into account heroes intrinsic higher power and depending how much better they are you could tweak the training speed of the training room.

This creates an interesting dynamic, because the fodder for the Keeper is cheap as chips and easy to regain. It doesn't matter if he loses heaps. But his high-level creatures are a pain to have to replace and he can only ever have a limited number training at any given time, plus the inherent risks. He needs that fodder to shield his elite.

With the heroes every creature lost is a set-back, an order of magnitude worse than a Keeper losing his fodder, but an order of magnitude better than a Keeper losing his elite. Plus reinforcements can level en masse.

Metal Gear Rex
August 29th, 2011, 16:52
What if the bloodless Training Room was Hero only, and the Combat Pit being more grisly and more martial was Keeper only?

If only it were that easy. As much as I like creating differences in gameplay between the Hero Side and Creature Side, I'm not going to touch any of the Basic 5/6 Rooms. (Treasury, Lair, Hatchery, Training Room, Library, and Workshop (Which wasn't one of the Basic Five in DK1 but may become one of the Basic Six in WftO)) Those rooms need to remain the same and equal for both sides. I will be trying out new revisons of certain other Rooms for the Hero Side, however, such as the Graveyard. I'm certain you can see why I "need" to change some of the Rooms for the Hero Side.

I'm not sure if you realized this or not but allowing one side use the Training Room and the other use the Combat Pit effects more of the game than you think. There are huge differences between the two. The former relies on Gold to function properly and the latter relies on Mana to function more efficiently.

The more Gold the Training Room owner has makes no difference, as long as he has enough to Train his Units. No matter how rich he is, his Units aren't going to train any faster. On the other hand, if he's broke for whatever reason or is very limited on the amount of Gold he can use, he cannot use the Training Room very often.

The more Mana the Combat Pit owner has does allow him to train his Units much faster. With more Mana, he can easily cast Heal on his Units and they will fight even more, gaining much more experiance. If a Combat Pit owner has a good source of Mana, he will easily outdo the rich Training Room owner. If the Combat Pit owner has no Gold nor Mana, he can still use the Combat Pit as it is free.

Making the Combat Pit cost money or not allowing a Player to cast Heal on the Units in the Pit doesn't help the situation. The Combat Pit already has enough drawbacks, and putting more limitations on it would allow the Training Room owner to outdo the Combat Pit owner. Even so, there are other problems with the Combat Pit. Some Units will simply train much faster than others. Example would be DPS Units or even tanks like the Dragon. DPS Units would get a lot of hits in and gain a lot of EXP. Dragons simply wouldn't damage each other enough to kill each other very quickly, and they can sit in the Combat Pit for a long time much like how two Warlocks could in DK2.

Units that would have problems with the Combat Pit would be Heavy Hitters like the Ogre or Giant, since they don't attack as often and hit very hard. They'd kill their enemy before recieving much EXP as a result. It would make it very difficult to train with Ogres and Giants for that very reason. It would reduce their usefulness and raise the usefulness of Units like the Dragon, simply because of the way the Combat Pit functions.

I find it unneccessary to try and revise the Combat Pit because then you need to balance the Combat Pit revision with the Training Room. Making the Hero/Creature Side use different types of Training Rooms isn't even needed, so it would be a lot of work for a result that probably isn't worth it, especially due to another reason I'll explain later in the post.


Keeper has more creatures but they are weaker (on whole).
They wouldn't be able to train the bulk of them, but those they do train reach higher levels faster and are thus able to provide a core of a few 'elite' levelled creatures backed up a greater amount cannon fodder which is the bulk of the force. This is in sync with Keepers massing weaker creatures, because the bulk of their force is such.

Heroes have less creatures but they are stronger (on whole).
With the Heroes having the training room they are more likely to be able to give their creatures an equal training across the board. The entire force, rather than a small portion, is trained - but not as highly due to its speed limitations. This focuses on maximizing the strength of ever individual together equally which is also in sync with heroes.

The most ironic thing is that that means the Heroes should have the Combat Pit. The Heroes are the ones who focus on having a small group of Elites. But the thing is, that isn't how it is going to end up working. Heroes aren't stronger than Creatures because they have a better rounded Training level. Creatures are statistically inferior to Heroes. Heroes also specialize so they are more efficient at most tasks compared to Creatures, who usually end up with multiple functions. Not too many Creatures specialize, but an example of one would be the Witch.


The early game layout would be like this, as an example:


Heroes (10)
10x creatures between levels 4-5

Keeper (16)
12x creatures at level 1
4x creatures between levels 8-9

That could work yes? Also take into account heroes intrinsic higher power and depending how much better they are you could tweak the training speed of the training room.

No that wouldn't work. The Heroes would tear those Level 1 Units into pieces. Remember that they're only Level 1, so they have no real abilities or spells or anything. They can't pull their own weight and wouldn't last a second against a Hero Unit who is both statistically and potentially stronger than them as well as several Levels higher than them.

There was also a mode I wanted to add to Multiplayer to expand gameplay that involved playing as the Dungeon Keeper with all the same Rooms, Spells, etc except they use Heroes instead of Creatures. It would be easy to give Heroes access to the Combat Pit then, and then we'd run into the same problem as I posted above. Removing the Combat Pit or anything else from them would kill the point of that mode, which is to allow the Player to play as the Dungeon Keeper instead of the Lord of the Land with all the Dungeon Keeper's abilities, except allowing them to use Heroes.

For this same reason, doing tweaks to the Combat Pit to fit the Creature Side wouldn't work out very well at all.


This creates an interesting dynamic, because the fodder for the Keeper is cheap as chips and easy to regain. It doesn't matter if he loses heaps. But his high-level creatures are a pain to have to replace and he can only ever have a limited number training at any given time, plus the inherent risks. He needs that fodder to shield his elite.

With the heroes every creature lost is a set-back, an order of magnitude worse than a Keeper losing his fodder, but an order of magnitude better than a Keeper losing his elite. Plus reinforcements can level en masse.

That's the basic idea of how the Creature VS Hero Sides will play out when it comes to differences of Units. Though as I stated before, this will be done through differences in the Units statistically, not differences in the types of Training Rooms that both sides use as they're both going to use the same type of Training Room.

MeinCookie
August 30th, 2011, 06:59
Yes... mana and gold are not much alike which is the flaw with that, I must agree, and are not easily balanced without altering the very nature of the rooms :o. The only way I could see of doing that would be ongoing gold maintenance costs for the CP and mana maintenance costs for TR. Nonetheless, with different types of units coming into play (glass cannons and such) and also the late game to consider it probably wouldn't be ideal. Some hero units would be overlooked and left among the rabble, and even if they had extremely powerful latter abilities, wouldn't be trained for the hassle.

Thanks for answering so comprehensively.

Metal Gear Rex
August 30th, 2011, 14:06
Yes... mana and gold are not much alike which is the flaw with that, I must agree, and are not easily balanced without altering the very nature of the rooms :o. The only way I could see of doing that would be ongoing gold maintenance costs for the CP and mana maintenance costs for TR. Nonetheless, with different types of units coming into play (glass cannons and such) and also the late game to consider it probably wouldn't be ideal. Some hero units would be overlooked and left among the rabble, and even if they had extremely powerful latter abilities, wouldn't be trained for the hassle.

Thanks for answering so comprehensively.

No problem.