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Metal Gear Rex
March 18th, 2010, 00:34
Alarm Trap, Invisibility, and a possible suggestion for the campaigns.

For the Alarm Trap, I noticed it is pretty buggy. The creatures just surround the trap but they don't seem to attack at all, although they still give out battle cries. You can also notice this strange action if you possess a creature, you're forced to the alarm trap.

The Invisibility spell I feel needs a bit of tweaking. It isn't very useful unless using DL's or my own patch to make the melee not reveal, but that's not what I want to talk about. Do you think it is possible to make an invisible creature disappear from the mini-map as well as the Map Overview? For AI computers they react the same to it either way, but for Human Players it makes it trickier as you know have to listen to find where the enemy is, instead of just looking at the map.

And for your campaigns, a suggestion is to make a new pathway thing for creature data and other data. Like how you did with the levels, a pathway defining where the levels are. Something like that for the creature data and other game data (Rules, Magic, etc) which would be essencial for campaigns like... umm, I believe it was "Quest for the Hero" that needed alternative data? Anyways, for campaigns that use the normal settings you can easily have it go to the default areas. But this allows easier use for campaigns with different settings.

Trotim
March 18th, 2010, 05:52
The first is true (though hard to notice for me since I never use them anyway).

Invisibility... yeah, it's only useful for imps who are claiming tiles in enemy territory. If Melee didn't reveal creatures it could get a little more viable, yes, and your map tweak would certainly make fighting Thieves a tiny bit more challenging. I'd say go for it, that spell is pretty underused. Perhaps an increasal in cooldown is in order when this is done, though?

Simply agree on the third one.

Metal Gear Rex
March 18th, 2010, 07:31
Invisibility... yeah, it's only useful for imps who are claiming tiles in enemy territory. If Melee didn't reveal creatures it could get a little more viable, yes, and your map tweak would certainly make fighting Thieves a tiny bit more challenging. I'd say go for it, that spell is pretty underused. Perhaps an increasal in cooldown is in order when this is done, though?

Well DragonsLover has his own patch, and I'm working on my own. Both have those changes, except mine only allows melee. Don't worry about that, it isn't much of your concern at the moment. The real issue is the visibility on the maps.

Krizzie
March 18th, 2010, 09:38
I'd rather see it the other way around with the invis spell. The annoying thing about it is that when a warlock or thief uses it, and then they do speed/sight that the spell is canceld. If they do an attack they should become visible imo.

If you want melee to be ignored, then make sight work for every creature that is near the creature with sight. So that they are visible for the creatures and maybe within a line of sight for the keeper too.

Madkill
March 18th, 2010, 10:40
Wouldn't mind 'Quest for the Hero' to be fixed, anyone able to attach the creatures.txt file for it by any chance?

Metal Gear Rex
March 18th, 2010, 12:06
Wouldn't mind 'Quest for the Hero' to be fixed, anyone able to attach the creatures.txt file for it by any chance?

Unfortunately no because Mefisto uses a different format with sepperate files. I like the new system with the only drawback is converting from the old system. :(

It still is really nice and organized though. :D


I'd rather see it the other way around with the invis spell. The annoying thing about it is that when a warlock or thief uses it, and then they do speed/sight that the spell is canceld. If they do an attack they should become visible imo.

Well it was rather worthless the other way around, all it is is an escape ability which doesn't work well with AI.


If you want melee to be ignored, then make sight work for every creature that is near the creature with sight. So that they are visible for the creatures and maybe within a line of sight for the keeper too.

Well I have no idea how to do that. I made Melee not possible to reveal invisible creatures only because it is nice and basic, I asked DL on how. And from what you said only Mefisto is capable of that, but he can only go so far.

Don't worry recharge and effect time is changed too to balance it more.

Searingflame2
March 18th, 2010, 13:04
Invis would probably be pretty friggen imba if you could do any attacks with it on, unless these attacks were against doors or rooms.

I myself use Invis very frequently because i've never been one for what others may call "climactic fights".

I enjoy watching Orcs destroy their own lairs when they are refused pay... which makes invis essential for me. Its also enjoyable watching warlocks starve to death and having vampires kill their friends...

Good old invis.

Mothrayas
March 18th, 2010, 15:06
Melee without invisibility deactivating would be broken.

Retaining invincibility when using moves like Speed or Sight would be a better idea, imo.

Metal Gear Rex
March 18th, 2010, 23:26
Melee without invisibility deactivating would be broken.

Retaining invincibility when using moves like Speed or Sight would be a better idea, imo.

How would you know? The ones who have invisiblity are Avatar, Fairy, Ghost, Warlock, and Thief. Plus Avatar's invisiblity is removed in my patch so it works well either way.

Fairy and Warlock don't count because they have too many spells and they lose their invisiblity when casting these spells. And the Ghost only can use it at levels below 8 for drain.

Thief is the only one who can use it, and that's not much of a threat.

Not to mention the long wait to reobtain the spell.

I've done tests, it isn't broken at all. Maybe you should have tried doing a little test before calling it broken.

Krizzie
March 19th, 2010, 08:56
My point (and probably his too) is that the spell wasn't meant to be used as an attack bonus. If you set a Thief to steal gold, his spell keeps working fine. Except when he uses the speed spell, which I agree with that it should be ignored so the spell keeps working.

It's nice that people want to "improve" the game and "fix" things that are not working properly but some things should be left alone. Else there won't be much of a Dungeon Keeper left if everything is altered.

Keep in mind that since the Spells and Values of creatures were "fixed" the game totally changed in gameplay. Some things positive others negative (like the Heal Spell or some new spells that creatures got) It was the point of KeeperFX to improve the game where needed not change the gameplay so everything is different.

I have the uttermost respect for Mefistotelis for doing this awesome job, but some people here are trying a bit too hard to "perfect" the game to their wishes or thoughts. It is not as it was intended (bugged or not)! KeeperFX should be an improvement in stability, serious bug fixing, custom maps and Internet play not in "rebalancing" the whole game.

So if you make a campaign that needs stats altering, fine, but keep it to your campaign only. I want to play the original campaign the way it was meant to be played. If that means that some things aren't working as they might have, so be it. It never bothered anyone the last 13 years.

Nothing personal against anyone in here. But hopefully people understand my point. :)

Mothrayas
March 19th, 2010, 12:15
I totally agree with Krizzie.


How would you know? The ones who have invisiblity are Avatar, Fairy, Ghost, Warlock, and Thief. Plus Avatar's invisiblity is removed in my patch so it works well either way.

Fairy and Warlock don't count because they have too many spells and they lose their invisiblity when casting these spells. And the Ghost only can use it at levels below 8 for drain.

Thief is the only one who can use it, and that's not much of a threat.

Not to mention the long wait to reobtain the spell.

I've done tests, it isn't broken at all. Maybe you should have tried doing a little test before calling it broken.

Cast Invisibility on a bunch of Orcs, throw them in combat, one sided battle ensues. Also works on Horned Reapers, Giants, Barbarians, etc.

Or go possess a Thief, walk into an enemy dungeon, unpossess, invisible imp slaughtering ensues.

Metal Gear Rex
March 19th, 2010, 16:11
I totally agree with Krizzie.



Cast Invisibility on a bunch of Orcs, throw them in combat, one sided battle ensues. Also works on Horned Reapers, Giants, Barbarians, etc.

Or go possess a Thief, walk into an enemy dungeon, unpossess, invisible imp slaughtering ensues.

Thanks for the obvious set of information, but I've alreay solved that as well.

Honestly you two just want to whine about something, that's why it is my own patch and not yours. Plus it is so easily changable it isn't even worth a complaint.

Now both of you stop it right now. That is not the point of this thread. And I will not allow you to ruin it either.

@Krizzie
Well why do you think I want to include a data bit for each campaign? That makes everything easier managable but my work is my work so don't be getting into that.

Krizzie
March 19th, 2010, 16:46
If it was for your own patch which you will be using on your system you would've made a topic for your patch alone. Since you posted this in the KeeperFX part we asume you want Mefistotelis to implent it in KeeperFX and that's where the "whining" begins.

That you think these's changes are right and correct doesn't mean others think they are. And since this is a forum where people can comment on each other you will get comments. So don't start being an ass if people don't agree with you.

If you were a fan of the game you would understand my point in changing too many things.

So if you want this topic to be about your patch than change the topic name and get it out of the KeeperFX forum..

Metal Gear Rex
March 19th, 2010, 17:06
If it was for your own patch which you will be using on your system you would've made a topic for your patch alone. Since you posted this in the KeeperFX part we asume you want Mefistotelis to implent it in KeeperFX and that's where the "whining" begins.

If you have been paying attention, this thread is for three suggestions.

The first is the Alarm Trap bug I would like to see fixed, otherwise it is a useless trap. In Level 16 in particular I noticed this.

Invisiblity Spell has a flaw. AI doesn't notice it either way but the player does, and I was thinking of getting that exploit cleared up.

And a suggestion on adding something new to the campaigns for easier play with alternative creature data which is different for whatever reason.

I mentioned my patch because this is how I noticed the second suggestion, and the third one was created from that idea.


Alarm Trap, Invisibility, and a possible suggestion for the campaigns.

This whole thing started to Mothrayas calling that invisiblity thing broken, which prevoked my actions however his might have been prevoked by you. You began talking about off-topic things, bringing in this pointless and needless arguement.


I'd rather see it the other way around with the invis spell. The annoying thing about it is that when a warlock or thief uses it, and then they do speed/sight that the spell is canceld. If they do an attack they should become visible imo.

If you want melee to be ignored, then make sight work for every creature that is near the creature with sight. So that they are visible for the creatures and maybe within a line of sight for the keeper too.


Melee without invisibility deactivating would be broken.

Retaining invincibility when using moves like Speed or Sight would be a better idea, imo.

So you see this was started by you.


That you think these's changes are right and correct doesn't mean others think they are. And since this is a forum where people can comment on each other you will get comments. So don't start being an ass if people don't agree with you.

Are we down to insults now? I'm not the one who wanted to argue, mind you. I just wanted these things fixed.

I was going to PM Mefisto myself on the subject at hand, but I thought if I created a thread I could hear other people's opinons on those issues and if they should be altered. I guess that was my mistake, I forgot about human carelessness and possible stupidity.

It is rather annoying when you're fighting an off-topic arguement created by the person you argue with, you should pay attention more.


If you were a fan of the game you would understand my point in changing too many things.

No duh, I'm not even going to waste my time explaining it to you since you might miss the point as you did of this topic.


So if you want this topic to be about your patch than change the topic name and get it out of the KeeperFX forum..

Yeah and if you'd been paying attention you'd realize this isn't about my patch but you two seem to want to talk about it don't you? Yes let's complain about something we don't even have to do.

You cannot win this arguement simply because it doesn't exist. As far as I'm concerned you're just posting hate filled comments and trolling. Why do I say trolling? Because you picked that little thing out and turned it into a big arguement. Seriously reading over I feel like I'm reading over a Troll's work.

Both of you stop it seriously, or I'll get someone else who you'll listen to.

Krizzie
March 19th, 2010, 17:34
I'd rather see it the other way around with the invis spell. The annoying thing about it is that when a warlock or thief uses it, and then they do speed/sight that the spell is canceld. If they do an attack they should become visible imo.
Well it was rather worthless the other way around, all it is is an escape ability which doesn't work well with AI.


If you want melee to be ignored, then make sight work for every creature that is near the creature with sight. So that they are visible for the creatures and maybe within a line of sight for the keeper too.

Well I have no idea how to do that. I made Melee not possible to reveal invisible creatures only because it is nice and basic, I asked DL on how. And from what you said only Mefisto is capable of that, but he can only go so far.

Don't worry recharge and effect time is changed too to balance it more.

Your original comments on my post about the Conceal spell. Not really offtopic is it?


Don't worry recharge and effect time is changed too to balance it more.

My point comes from there, by changing everything it isn't Dungeon Keeper like it's supposed to be anymore. For example you want to change A and to do so you will edit B, C and D. so infact you have changed four things instead of fixing one. You want to make creature A more effective by it but what happends to creatures B, C and D how to they make use of it, and how will it affect the game balance, cause that's whats been left out here.

Yes it's not really ontopic for your three suggestions but it might be worth considering when trying to fix these "problems".

Cause and Effect. ;)

Madkill
March 20th, 2010, 10:59
Invis is useless unless you possess the creature, literally speaking, since whether or not the creature goes invisible they're going to attack and when they attack they expose themselves, sometimes literally.