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dotted
April 4th, 2010, 18:11
Hah I bet that got your attention ;)

I think at this point we can declare WFTO dead, simply because we don't have any programmers to take our ideas and bring them to life.

Now we would all like to see a DK3, and there is still hope. Namely OpenDungeons (http://opendungeons.sourceforge.net), I've talked with their lead programmer and he said they would very much like for us to come on board for the OpenDungeons project.

Personally I think this would be the best course of action, as they already got the organization in place. The development is completely open, which is something that has been lacking here. Also if we teamed up I could comfortably step down as project lead and focus on Keeper Klan itself, something I have considering for quite a while now.

One thing this would mean is that it will no longer be a Keeper Klan project, but I don't really see that as an issue either. So I suggest you go to their website and check it out and read some of their ideas.

But I'll leave it up to you if go with them or not.

/discuss ;)

Attached is their latest release, I had quite a bit of trouble getting it to work, mostly due to missing files. If you have performance issues make "ogre.log" read-only.

EDIT: To enable gameplay press F12 to activate the console, type "nick nickname" where nickname is your nickname, and then type "host" all without quotes.

Mothrayas
April 4th, 2010, 18:23
I think it'd be a good idea to work with them, since it doesn't look like WftO would ever be finished anyway. It's better to have at least something that has more of a chance to ever be finished.

natchoguy
April 4th, 2010, 18:43
best chance for actually doing something. we don't need a poll on this since everyone agrees, right? *looking around the room, looking for victims*

Hapuga
April 4th, 2010, 18:53
I think it is the only logical thing left to do in a current situation. Their models are not good at all... But if our gurus Syn and Bluto would help them, I think it has a chance for living.

natchoguy
April 4th, 2010, 18:56
I'll check the packs later, hope they do a good job

MaxHayman
April 4th, 2010, 19:19
NBKE also dead?

Hapuga
April 4th, 2010, 19:37
long ago...

Sire
April 4th, 2010, 19:40
Another good project dies.

Go figure, there's always a complication and nobody ever wants to push onward, even if it is a lost cause.

I also take it that the proposed Test Realm will forever be dead as well, since WFTO suggestions will no longer require testing.

dotted
April 4th, 2010, 19:42
Another good project dies.

Go figure, there's always a complication and nobody ever wants to push onward, even if it is a lost cause.

I also take it that the proposed Test Realm will forever be dead as well, since WFTO suggestions will no longer require testing.

You sir should read the thread before commenting

Sire
April 4th, 2010, 19:49
As I have stated before, I am a madman what doesn't know what I am talking about.

I understand about the lack of programmers. Personally, I rather see a shattered dream repiece itself together and live once more, but no one else ever seems to share that ideal.

However, if you truely want something done, then you can team up with the OpenDungeons team and help them with their developement.

One question though, we have three development things going on at once, right? There was an Ogre, Kopaval, and another one. What exactly happened to those?

Mothrayas
April 4th, 2010, 19:53
I also take it that the proposed Test Realm will forever be dead as well, since WFTO suggestions will no longer exist.

Fixed.

How WftO creatures suddenly wouldn't require testing is beyond me.

dotted
April 4th, 2010, 19:54
One question though, we have three development things going on at once, right? There was an Ogre, Kopaval, and another one. What exactly happened to those?

Well i believe Kopavel is moving away from WFTO and doing something else with his engine. Ogre I'm not really sure what the status of it is currently. And NBKE is dead.


Fixed.

How WftO creatures suddenly wouldn't require testing is beyond me.

I would like to know what makes the WFTO suggestions incompatible with OD :/

Hapuga
April 4th, 2010, 20:10
Their Wiki is open.

All you have to do is take all our ideas and implement them in their Wiki. We have many good ideas and great creatures/characters.

You're still here?

Duke Ragereaver
April 4th, 2010, 20:13
Bombard their wiki with our suggestions and ideas I would say then, I personally find their own stuff rather... questionable to the Dungeon Keeper legacy at first, and for their orginality.

@Sire, this does not change anything.

dotted
April 4th, 2010, 20:25
Bombard their wiki with our suggestions and ideas I would say then, I personally find their own stuff rather... questionable to the Dungeon Keeper legacy at first, and for their orginality.

@Sire, this does not change anything.

From what i gather and what they told me the only thing that is different, is the factions something they are reconsidering.

As for posting suggestions on the wiki, i dont think thats the intention, i would suggest posting them on their forum instead.

Duke Ragereaver
April 4th, 2010, 20:31
From what i gather and what they told me the only thing that is different, is the factions something they are reconsidering.

That's for sure the thing that stood out. I even doubted for a moment the whole thing was actually something related in the range of Dungeon Keeper. Hell, I can only find ONE hit on the Horned Reaper.


Blasphemy! ! !

(though it's classified as a super-creature)

Mothrayas
April 4th, 2010, 20:40
That's for sure the thing that stood out. I even doubted for a moment the whole thing was actually something related in the range of Dungeon Keeper. Hell, I can only find ONE hit on the Horned Reaper.


Blasphemy! ! !

(though it's classified as a super-creature)

I wouldn't give a **** whether loads of existing DK-material or original content would be put in, if the result would be an actually playable new DK-esque game.

AndrewBuck
April 5th, 2010, 02:11
Hello my name is Andrew Buck, I am the lead coder for the OpenDungeons project which is being discussed in this thread. I would love to see more people joining our project and just thought I would make a post here to discuss how our project is structured and what our goals are.

As I am sure many of you will agree, the cancellation of the third part of the Dungeon Keeper series was a disappointment to all of us. The goal of OD is to fill this void. Beyond that not much has really been decided for sure. The current aim is the implementation of a DK-like game built entirely from opensource and opencontent work.

As has been mentioned previously in this thread we had planned to implement a "factions" system, whereby a player would choose a side which would determine what creatures/rooms would be available to them. This is currently our biggest departure from the original DK series, and is one which even some of our members do not totally agree with. Currently there is a discussion here (http://forum.freegamedev.net/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=246) about how exactly that should work. The current thinking (and something I personally like, is that we should implement "soft factions" where you don't choose a side explicitly, but rather the actions you take (torturing, massacring, stealing, etc) influence what kind of creatures are attracted to your dungeon. None of these things are yet set in stone and we are open to suggestions, however I somewhat dislike the notion of "taking over" our project via bombarding our wiki. We are welcoming you into our project and feel both parties would benefit from this decision. Please keep in mind though that OD is a community effort and your opinions will be taken into consideration but if you expect us to change our design entirely you will have to convince us of that through reasoned discussion.

Our codebase is currently quite sophisticated and would hugely benefit from the addition of the models you have developed here. My only concern is that your models are very much like the original DK models. This is something that we (for legal considerations) have tried to avoid as much as possible, and this is likely why many of you found the game more different from the original DK series than you would have liked. I am not opposed in principle to the content you have created (and it is fantastic) however I am concerned about the similarity to the original series. I do not want to see many hours of hard work destroyed by lawyers representing the current owners of the DK content just because our game looks like their's does.

Hopefully we can come to an understanding and the project can move forward to completion. If, after reading this, you still want to join our community then I personally welcome you into it. If, however, you feel our projects are too different to be merged then I wish you luck in your pursuits; competition is the essence of what makes opensource software a success, and I would hate to see a budding project die simply for a (possibly temporary) lack of development resources. Whether you decide to join our project or not, our content is open under various licenses (GPL, CC, etc) and you are welcome to make use of it in any way you feel is appropriate.

EDIT: I started a thread here (http://forum.freegamedev.net/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=306) on the OD forums letting people knwo the status of your project (at least as far as I understand it). If you would like to introduce yourselves and join our project, this is where I would suggest you start.

-Buck

Metal Gear Rex
April 5th, 2010, 04:26
When I was reading through the wiki, I did also feel it may drift too far from Dungeon Keeper. Then I saw a video and realized I was wrong there. I feel this will be a good project, plus we don't really have to worry about legal matters and we technically never got permission on WftO... did we?

Anyways, I joined there and I hope I can provide some good ideas. :)

PS: Wasn't the original DK3 supposed to have 3 sides, the third some kind of nature based on called the Elders or something?

MaxHayman
April 5th, 2010, 09:37
PS: Wasn't the original DK3 supposed to have 3 sides, the third some kind of nature based on called the Elders or something?

Yes

'The third major change we had in mind was to add a new race, and to let you play any of the three: Heroes, Dungeon-Dwellers, or the third race, the Elders. '

Monsterbaby
April 5th, 2010, 16:20
Sad to see this happening to WFTO, especially for those people who has put a big effort in creating this. But as always I'm up for it, as long as something is getting done, and it seems like it is, at the new project.

kyle
April 5th, 2010, 16:22
Well i believe Kopavel is moving away from WFTO and doing something else with his engine.

Actually kopavel is moving away from WTFO and focusing on his spin tires game.

Monsterbaby
April 5th, 2010, 16:30
We should use their stuff, but use this site. It looks way better xD ;)

Metal Gear Rex
April 5th, 2010, 16:42
Well it isn't a total loss, we can always give out a few of our own suggested ideas. Certain creatures, however, can go into this game from the original DK game without much of a problem due to its commoness... or something... Example be the Dragon and Knight, but also the Orc and Troll. Unfortunately we would have to redo them, too bad we can't use a Bile Demon. >_<

Besides, I still am pretty fond of what I've seen. I can't say the same for WftO because we never got that far. Heh, imagine once we import some of bluto's graphics, heehee...

Although wouldn't we have some unit similar to Horny? Does that mean we'll need to create one for each side as well? (One of DK3's original problems)

A New Room
April 6th, 2010, 04:14
I hope they have space for a mentor voice. Otherwise I'm pretty useless... :/

I'm glad that something is going to replace WftO, even if one of the requirements is that it be less Dungeon Keeperish :(

natchoguy
April 6th, 2010, 04:53
ask them, they will probably accept you

QwentyJ
April 6th, 2010, 04:56
WTF? That's a bit quick to declare it dead ain't it?

Why don't we come to a common consensus via voting as to what needs to be done and then get everything done that we can do before then trying to find a programmer willing/able to help us in this work? I just think it's far too early to throw in the towel! I'm not moving forums yet again, and tbh, I'm not willing to compromise with the stuff that we've already thought about; I'm not liking where their project is headed frankly.

AFAIC, this doesn't need to be called dead - rather the next dvelopment of the phase is on hold until we a) find a coder and b) finish off the decisions.

What's causing a stem in the flow of ideas is that there is no set dead-lines or whatever. Why don't we try doing some of that first BEFORE we make any rash decisions? I've been on this case for 3 years now and I don't rea;;y see why we should piss all our energy away.

I am going to continue with my ideas and keep putting them up on this board, because I don't think this project is dead and I also don't see a collaboration with opensource possible.

Dates. Dates. Dates. If this means I have to take a more active role in getting this ship sailing, then so be it. I'm here for the bloody long haul.

Rant over.

Evi
April 6th, 2010, 05:06
Read through their wiki.

Makes me sad their Pixie is gonna be a Hero Worker... Wait... What does make my Pixie then? o_o


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWaLxFIVX1s

Metal Gear Rex
April 6th, 2010, 05:07
Read through their wiki.

Makes me sad their Pixie is gonna be a Hero Worker... Wait... What does make my Pixie then? o_o

Nooooooooooo! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWaLxFIVX1s)

No room for your Pixie torture, huh Evi? Heehee...

QwentyJ
April 6th, 2010, 05:09
So basically, what I'm saying is that I'm going to carry on the WFTO project myself in story and design, felshing it out. If this means I am the only person working on it, then so be it; but I will still use this forum as my base of operations. Anyone who is wanting to stay on is welcome to join me. I think we've come too far to simply let go and be absorbed into another community which varies differently.

I don't consider WTFO dead.

Evi
April 6th, 2010, 05:14
No room for your Pixie torture, huh Evi? Heehee...

I don't care about that anymore.

I'm just wondering how most of the suggestions will be in the game, the Scorpion for the villians?
The Evil Pixies for the Heroes?
Beholders for Cave Dwellers?

While I am not trying to bash them, they're ideas are cool like the "Gateway" becoming like a Barracks when claimed by Heroes, or a Graveyard once claimed by the undead.

Pretty awesome things right there. :D


So basically, what I'm saying is that I'm going to carry on the WFTO project myself in story and design, felshing it out. If this means I am the only person working on it, then so be it; but I will still use this forum as my base of operations. Anyone who is wanting to stay one is welcome to join me. I thi k we've come far to let go and be absorbed into another community which varies differently.

I don't consider WTFO dead.

You're gonna one-man this?

You remind me of the person who made Cave Story then, he single-handly created the entire game. o_o

You can do it!

QwentyJ
April 6th, 2010, 05:21
I don't care about that anymore.

I'm just wondering how most of the suggestions will be in the game, the Scorpion for the villians?
The Evil Pixies for the Heroes?
Beholders for Cave Dwellers?

While I am not trying to bash them, they're ideas are cool like the "Gateway" becoming like a Barracks when claimed by Heroes, or a Graveyard once claimed by the undead.

Pretty awesome things right there. :D



You're gonna one-man this?

You remind me of the person who made Cave Story then, he single-handly created the entire game. o_o

You can do it!
Hi Evi,

I'm going to finish off what I set out to do - the story and campaign, the crux of the issue.

I think we can wait until a coder comes along. The problem is is we've got people either too busy or jumping on the bandwagon saying "let's do this" but do no work themselves. The time for procrasting is over; we needed to set out our guidelines early but the progress we made over on KK back in the day was lost.

Anyone who is willing to carry on with WFTO and is actually willing to put some graft in, then you're help will be appreciated. I'm going to fulfil my side of the bargain as I will have plenty of time to work on it over the rest of the year.

Metal Gear Rex
April 6th, 2010, 05:28
So basically, what I'm saying is that I'm going to carry on the WFTO project myself in story and design, felshing it out. If this means I am the only person working on it, then so be it; but I will still use this forum as my base of operations. Anyone who is wanting to stay on is welcome to join me. I think we've come too far to simply let go and be absorbed into another community which varies differently.

I don't consider WTFO dead.

Wow, you sound like me a few years back. If only I can find the information I had gathered, maybe I could share it. Yes I had created quite a few ideas. Unfortunately that's as far as I got.

You see this project would require alot of work to be done alone, and unless you can do the coding, the engine, the models, the ideas, then you won't get very far. We didn't have a complete team, and it had been like this for some time now. So don't act as if we went a few days without a coder and then suddenly quit.

Not to mention they're already way ahead of us, and they don't have to worry about legal matters like we do. If you can't even get permission, how are you going to pull this off?

I've seen it, it isn't so far from Dungeon Keeper to not attract Dungeon Keeper players like myself, but it is far enough to not be considered Dungeon Keeper.

What am I saying? I can't force you to come along. You can just stay here alone and see what you can do. It isn't impossible to do it.


I don't care about that anymore.

I'm just wondering how most of the suggestions will be in the game, the Scorpion for the villians?
The Evil Pixies for the Heroes?
Beholders for Cave Dwellers?

While I am not trying to bash them, they're ideas are cool like the "Gateway" becoming like a Barracks when claimed by Heroes, or a Graveyard once claimed by the undead.

Pretty awesome things right there. :D

Well not all our suggestions will be going in there, as much as I'd like to see some of them in there. Although Pixie and Scorpion seem to be far enough from DK to be qualified for the task at hand.

Scorpion to the Spider? I dunno, maybe?


Hi Evi,

I'm going to finish off what I set out to do - the story and campaign, the crux of the issue.

I think we can wait until a coder comes along. The problem is is we've got people either too busy or jumping on the bandwagon saying "let's do this" but do no work themselves. The time for procrasting is over; we needed to set out our guidelines early but the progress we made over on KK back in the day was lost.

Anyone who is willing to carry on with WFTO and is actually willing to put some graft in, then you're help will be appreciated. I'm going to fulfil my side of the bargain as I will have plenty of time to work on it over the rest of the year.

I think you need to focus more on yourself working for the coding.

Considering the past experiances, it is hard to believe a coder will arrive for you like that. And also they're going to be discourage if the community has dropped the project, it is hard to believe in this one single person.

We had coders remember? But something kept going wrong, if it weren't for that then WftO would be still alive. It is also easier to move with this larger group than to stick to our smaller disorganized team. Remember we didn't even have a team and it was totally disorganized and everything.

However being the creative writer I am, I can always share ideas with you, since I know my own ideas won't always be at use for their team as it seems the idea thinking time is slowly fading away for them. Well maybe not, but WftO definately still is in the idea phase.

QwentyJ
April 6th, 2010, 05:39
Wow, you sound like me a few years back. If only I can find the information I had gathered, maybe I could share it. Yes I had created quite a few ideas. Unfortunately that's as far as I got.

You see this project would require alot of work to be done alone, and unless you can do the coding, the engine, the models, the ideas, then you won't get very far. We didn't have a complete team, and it had been like this for some time now. So don't act as if we went a few days without a coder and then suddenly quit.

Not to mention they're already way ahead of us, and they don't have to worry about legal matters like we do. If you can't even get permission, how are you going to pull this off?

I've seen it, it isn't so far from Dungeon Keeper to not attract Dungeon Keeper players like myself, but it is far enough to not be considered Dungeon Keeper.

What am I saying? I can't force you to come along. You can just stay here alone and see what you can do. It isn't impossible to do it.


I think you need to focus more on yourself working for the coding.

Considering the past experiances, it is hard to believe a coder will arrive for you like that. And also they're going to be discourage if the community has dropped the project, it is hard to believe in this one single person.

We had coders remember? But something kept going wrong, if it weren't for that then WftO would be still alive. It is also easier to move with this larger group than to stick to our smaller disorganized team. Remember we didn't even have a team and it was totally disorganized and everything.

However being the creative writer I am, I can always share ideas with you, since I know my own ideas won't always be at use for their team as it seems the idea thinking time is slowly fading away for them. Well maybe not, but WftO definately still is in the idea phase.

I've got friends and acquaintancies IRL who'd be willing to help. Th essential thing is that we need to have some sort of grounding. A solid base and proposed project. We had a sketchy beginning and look what's happened. A firm hand is needed. Hey, if the Open boys finish something off, they can come along too. It goes without saying that the rate of work will be much much reduced, but I'm going to take it on in small chunks - with a view to getting something dolid by the end of the year. We'll recap then and se what the situation is. Therefore, if people are jumping ship and if I can be presumptuous enough, I'd like this board to stay open so I can use it.

If I can't get permission, well, there are ways around it and I have my lawyer chums who can advise me. it may very well mean a change of name. As I said, I'll come back to that at the end of the year.

Coders don't drop by, sure, but there are enough to go around and consult. I have what I have and a free run in pretty much. If I can take the project nb, I will. No bull-shit, no unrealistic expectations - I am going to continue what I started.

dotted
April 6th, 2010, 08:12
WTF? That's a bit quick to declare it dead ain't it?
No it isn't.


Why don't we come to a common consensus via voting as to what needs to be done and then get everything done that we can do before then trying to find a programmer willing/able to help us in this work? I just think it's far too early to throw in the towel! I'm not moving forums yet again, and tbh, I'm not willing to compromise with the stuff that we've already thought about; I'm not liking where their project is headed frankly.
Thats fine but don't think all the ideas we have come up with are being thrown out. Some I hope to get implemented in OpenDungeons.


AFAIC, this doesn't need to be called dead - rather the next dvelopment of the phase is on hold until we a) find a coder and b) finish off the decisions.
You need several programers to get anywhere.


What's causing a stem in the flow of ideas is that there is no set dead-lines or whatever. Why don't we try doing some of that first BEFORE we make any rash decisions? I've been on this case for 3 years now and I don't rea;;y see why we should piss all our energy away.
I don't remember what they call this, but that is pretty much the same attitude that was the downfall of 3DRealms. They worked on Duke Nukem Forever for so long that they couldn't just let it go. They have invested too much in the game to just give up.


I am going to continue with my ideas and keep putting them up on this board, because I don't think this project is dead and I also don't see a collaboration with opensource possible.
Feel free, but you really should put all that effort into OpenDungeons instead, it is silly to work on something that is unlikely to ever amount to anything. And not going opensource would be a bad way to go, unless you have a team of coders which you don't.


Dates. Dates. Dates. If this means I have to take a more active role in getting this ship sailing, then so be it. I'm here for the bloody long haul.

Rant over.
Well you never were active in this project, at least not on this board nor did you ever even login to Google Apps so forgive me me i say i really doubt you are up for the task. While I'm not stopping you, I think you should also be a little realistic.

Oh and btw, if you aren't going open-source remember you won't be able to use the current source code for your WFTO.


I've seen it, it isn't so far from Dungeon Keeper to not attract Dungeon Keeper players like myself, but it is far enough to not be considered Dungeon Keeper.
The only thing that deviates is the faction thing, which is something they are still discussing - so i doubt it is actually something thats set in stone. It is just an idea, nothing more.

Blutonium
April 6th, 2010, 09:06
Hey Guys - just saw the thread

can't talk much, at work at the moment

1) I have no problem supplying the end-result low poly models - they can do whatever they want with them.
2) Blender WILL be able to open low poly models (although I have never used it before)
3) Hi-res models will not be supplied....low-res is all they need anyway.
4) I might release them all one day, or If I leave the project before it is finished (99% chance it won't happen though)

i'll check out their forum tonight and read...

QwentyJ
April 6th, 2010, 12:27
No it isn't.


Thats fine but don't think all the ideas we have come up with are being thrown out. Some I hope to get implemented in OpenDungeons.


You need several programers to get anywhere.


I don't remember what they call this, but that is pretty much the same attitude that was the downfall of 3DRealms. They worked on Duke Nukem Forever for so long that they couldn't just let it go. They have invested too much in the game to just give up.


Feel free, but you really should put all that effort into OpenDungeons instead, it is silly to work on something that is unlikely to ever amount to anything. And not going opensource would be a bad way to go, unless you have a team of coders which you don't.


Well you never were active in this project, at least not on this board nor did you ever even login to Google Apps so forgive me me i say i really doubt you are up for the task. While I'm not stopping you, I think you should also be a little realistic.

Oh and btw, if you aren't going open-source remember you won't be able to use the current source code for your WFTO.


The only thing that deviates is the faction thing, which is something they are still discussing - so i doubt it is actually something thats set in stone. It is just an idea, nothing more.

I think that's a little bit of a slur. I've been active with this community as much as possible, yet I haven't always been able to do what I could due to work constraints. After 6 months or so of this new forum, we're already chucking in the towel? Of course I'm realistic, I'm just determined enough to not allow our vision to not be realised.

You think I'm not up for this task? Think again. Open Dungeons will pretty much continue with their designs and I doubt that much of what we wanted will let interfere with their overall grand design. I don't like it's look, hence I don't feel the need at the moment to co-operate with said team. If we can come to an actual compromise, where we know what we can achieve with them, then great.

There was the thing with the developers where we had interest of that Dev forum didn't we? Everyone blew that off; regardless of the waiting time it took for EA to reply. Sums it up really. I think (no offense intended) we've all been a little half hearted.

Madkill
April 6th, 2010, 12:49
Oh! So Dotted was the project leader. I see.


That explained a lot. :D

kyle
April 6th, 2010, 13:19
I dont know like, im starting to agree with QwentyJ. The reason i joined this project in the first place is that it was a remake of dungeon keeper. I like the Dungeon keeper play style, but its the things within it that makes me love it more. The Bile demons, imps, the chickens in the hatchery and all that crap, They are all signature things and when DK III was stopped this project was hope (Not very much though). I would like to help QwentyJ and OpenDungeons ( Even though I cannot do anything)

A New Room
April 6th, 2010, 13:54
To me it looks like they are in the same boat as we are, all ship and no sails. Except theirs in an "Open source" paddling boat :P

MaxHayman
April 6th, 2010, 14:01
Lol, We are OpenSource :P

Sire
April 6th, 2010, 14:05
Looks like I'm not the only one staying on a sinking boat.

My allegiance lies with a project that some may declare dead. Perhaps it is, but I am willing to try and repatch this vessel and get it sailing once more. If it fails, then let me sink into the watery abyss.

I came to this forums starting with my WFTO Valkyrie suggestion. When WFTO is forgotten, so will I.

A New Room
April 6th, 2010, 14:17
And the Oscar goes to...

Some guy who went down with a ship :p

_______________


I'll do whatever I can for either project. Though "War for the Overworld" still has the better project name :D

MaxHayman
April 6th, 2010, 14:28
Can we focus on the subjects, without referring everything to boats.

A New Room
April 6th, 2010, 14:38
This metaphor will not sink! :D

dotted
April 6th, 2010, 14:45
I think that's a little bit of a slur. I've been active with this community as much as possible, yet I haven't always been able to do what I could due to work constraints. After 6 months or so of this new forum, we're already chucking in the towel? Of course I'm realistic, I'm just determined enough to not allow our vision to not be realised.

You think I'm not up for this task? Think again. Open Dungeons will pretty much continue with their designs and I doubt that much of what we wanted will let interfere with their overall grand design. I don't like it's look, hence I don't feel the need at the moment to co-operate with said team. If we can come to an actual compromise, where we know what we can achieve with them, then great.

We are talking about joining with OD to be a part of their team, we are not talking about just handing over our ideas and let them deal with it. Sure some of our ideas may need to be adapted to theirs, but that is something you can discuss.

A for throwing in the towel, WFTO has been in development much longer than this forum has even existed, it began on the old forum quite a while ago. So I fail to see the relevance here, besides we are just moving to a different project, a project that atually has something going for it.


There was the thing with the developers where we had interest of that Dev forum didn't we? Everyone blew that off; regardless of the waiting time it took for EA to reply. Sums it up really. I think (no offense intended) we've all been a little half hearted.
I'm sorry but post count doesn't lie. Google Apps didn't lie. With your participation in this project atleast for the past 4-5 months has been pretty much non-existent so please don't talk about being half hearted.


I dont know like, im starting to agree with QwentyJ. The reason i joined this project in the first place is that it was a remake of dungeon keeper. I like the Dungeon keeper play style, but its the things within it that makes me love it more. The Bile demons, imps, the chickens in the hatchery and all that crap, They are all signature things and when DK III was stopped this project was hope (Not very much though). I would like to help QwentyJ and OpenDungeons ( Even though I cannot do anything)
Personally i would much rather see a DKish game rather than let all our work go to waste. Because i see no future in WFTO to be quite honest, development has been stalled for several months our project leader is gone and I guess i just took over that role, at least noone else stepped up to the plate.

So I urge all of you to actually read what thet have, provide feedback on their forums so we can actually create a DK3, instead of just dismissing OD without even reading what their thoughts are. They have a forum where you can provide comments, so if there is something you dont like then post it there.


To me it looks like they are in the same boat as we are, all ship and no sails. Except theirs in an "Open source" paddling boat :P

Err they have had several releases already, and development is currently active. They certanly have sails, and with us onboard they will have not just sails but a proper engine ;)

Hapuga
April 6th, 2010, 14:46
Okay, this may sound very rude, but this project sank because 95% of people involved in the project were useless and incompetent.

You should choose wisely who you work with. If a person is unable to help in any significant way (making models, textures, drawing, coding, voiceovering, etc) the person should not be considered. Too many people become a burden for a project because it is not a team but a crowd.

Another reason was bad management. I remember talking about it a hundred millions times, but nobody listened, unfortunately. I was one of the first to offer the premade engine as a base because making a brand new engine was a suicide. Nobody listened again.

Our project leaders were not leading anywhere.

dotted
April 6th, 2010, 15:13
You should choose wisely who you work with. If a person is unable to help in any significant way (making models, textures, drawing, coding, voiceovering, etc) the person should not be considered. Too many people become a burden for a project because it is not a team but a crowd.
I agree there was a crowd of nonworking people on the team, however they all indicated that they could help in a signifigent way. Level designers and beta tester were all dismissed for example.


Another reason was bad management. I remember talking about it a hundred millions times, but nobody listened, unfortunately. I was one of the first to offer the premade engine as a base because making a brand new engine was a suicide. Nobody listened again.
And if none of the programmers are willing to use a premade engine then what do you do? In the end i believe we ended up deciding to use the Ogre port of NBKE, Ogre3D being a premade engine (used by Torchlight among other games), now the problem with that was that the development was closed off, much like Kopavels engine and NBKE and NBK before it.


Our project leaders were not leading anywhere.
Our project leader were actually never here. But noone really stepped up the plate, and i guess i sort of took over as time passed on, but it was a task I didn't want to do and as such i offer this oppertunity to join OD to actually go anywhere.

A New Room
April 6th, 2010, 15:31
I don't think I'm going to be any use to them. Reading through their boards and wiki I get this really uncomfortable feeling as if I'm an electrician at an Amish hippy convention.

Hapuga
April 6th, 2010, 15:37
And if none of the programmers are willing to use a premade engine then what do you do? In the end i believe we ended up deciding to use the Ogre port of NBKE, Ogre3D being a premade engine (used by Torchlight among other games), now the problem with that was that the development was closed off, much like Kopavels engine and NBKE and NBK before it.

Thats the problem. THats something that had to be decided on two years ago. We had too many disagreements.



Our project leader were actually never here. But noone really stepped up the plate, and i guess i sort of took over as time passed on, but it was a task I didn't want to do and as such i offer this oppertunity to join OD to actually go anywhere.

It may sound that I'm blaming you personally. I'm not. It simply turned out as it did.

dotted
April 6th, 2010, 15:41
Thats the problem. THats something that had to be decided on two years ago. We had too many disagreements.
Well it was pretty much agreed we were to use NBKE back then, beside we did not really have any programmers available at the time so our only option was IKSLM and he was busy with NBKE. But back then there was absolutely no heirachy no organization at all, so such a decision would have been impossible to make back then.

QwentyJ
April 6th, 2010, 15:51
Ok Dotted, see my PM - I don't see the reason why we should continue attacking each other's standpoints. I have to make it clear though that I was unable to contibute due to work commitments. If I had the time - I WOULD HAVE BEEN HERE.

I agree with Hapuga that none of us stepped up/were unable to step up - if decisions aren't made, then development suffers.

Metal Gear Rex
April 6th, 2010, 16:14
I don't think I'm going to be any use to them. Reading through their boards and wiki I get this really uncomfortable feeling as if I'm an electrician at an Amish hippy convention.

Don't feel bad ANR!

There has to be some way to notify the player of things going on in the dungeon/overworld, I bet you can voice for that! :)

@Sire
Your suggestion could still be listed in OD, ya know.

@Everybody Sinking
The ship was built with holes, yet you boarded it anyways?

Hapuga
April 6th, 2010, 17:22
@Everybody Sinking
The ship was built with holes, yet you boarded it anyways?

Don't try to be a wise guy. you were one of the most active "passengers".

It turned out as it turned out, the last thing left to do is to learn not to make the same mistake again.

A New Room
April 6th, 2010, 17:29
Don't feel bad ANR!

There has to be some way to notify the player of things going on in the dungeon/overworld, I bet you can voice for that! We will have to see :)


@Everybody Sinking
The ship was built with holes, yet you boarded it anyways?

Gaarrr, but she looked to be such a sea worthy vessel?! :D

Metal Gear Rex
April 6th, 2010, 17:32
Don't try to be a wise guy. you were one of the most active "passengers".

It turned out as it turned out, the last thing left to do is to learn not to make the same mistake again.

Heehee, :P

I'd something else but not really into starting something.

Although I still think OD is a smarter decision, a simple name change isn't much to help WftO. Well now that it seems we're not much of a chance on getting this project done, since it still is impossible without EA permission, I'm moving onto OD. I prefer not to waste my time here no more. Luckily our ideas can make of some use.

We can't force people to make their decisions, but having a big split like this is helpful to neither project. Well except maybe OD as they have a team already, we're adding onto it.

So now I don't find much sense in staying with WftO, if we couldn't get the project done in our larger "team" then I don't suppose it is much possible to get it with a smaller "team". Not to mention WftO's state is extremely repelling to coders and programmers, who don't want to see their work a waste. OD is probably going to be their pick if they had a choice, which is more likely to succeed.

Blutonium
May 14th, 2010, 20:31
i've posted on their forum, and might move over - i havent been on their forum for long so far...

i'll probably end up batting for both teams - keep on working on my models till a project gets far enough to make use of them.

not sure about 5 factions though - sounds like a totally different game to me :confused:

natchoguy
May 14th, 2010, 21:10
you sound like a double-agent, you should take a look at their wiki and vids

QwentyJ
May 14th, 2010, 21:56
i've posted on their forum, and might move over - i havent been on their forum for long so far...

i'll probably end up batting for both teams - keep on working on my models till a project gets far enough to make use of them.

not sure about 5 factions though - sounds like a totally different game to me :confused:

You pimp! :p

natchoguy
May 14th, 2010, 22:32
Hope you don't get overloaded Bluto

Metal Gear Rex
May 15th, 2010, 02:58
not sure about 5 factions though - sounds like a totally different game to me :confused:

Actually they're discussing it to be different, I think some kind of alignment system? I haven't been paying as much attention to OD or WftO lately, but I know they wanted to make it more like DK. (Where you could have all types of units but as long as you're on the evil/good side or something)

MeinCookie
May 15th, 2010, 03:20
WftO is dead... the melodrama.

}=(

Sire
May 15th, 2010, 03:26
We attempt to post our progress weekly in private.

Although, to my limited knowledge, not much is going on. Of course, it is May, the month of massive tests, exams, and other such things.

Wait till summer break, and maybe activity may kick up a bit.

Hapuga
May 15th, 2010, 12:42
usually its the other way around. people go to vacations, beaches etc. the most active months are September-December and February-April.

Metal Gear Rex
May 15th, 2010, 12:43
usually its the other way around. people go to vacations, beaches etc. the most active months are September-December and February-April.

Not unless they're lifeless. :3

Yeah but Hapuga has a point... hopefully it doesn't slow down WftO too much...

natchoguy
May 15th, 2010, 22:59
month and a half till vacations. Hope something will get done

Hapuga
May 15th, 2010, 23:44
month and a half till vacations. Hope something will get done

;D ;D

nice joke.

MeinCookie
May 16th, 2010, 00:46
I still have faith in WftO, whether there is the slightest bit of prrogress or not... and even if I was to jump ship? In opinion it would be jumping to a worse ship.

OD is a cobbled togethor mess for its wiki, and games like that can't succeed. If you create a game without a starting clear vision it will almost always be terrible and lack an essance/aura that is one of the best things DK can claim.

natchoguy
May 16th, 2010, 01:09
OD is actually in a better condition than Wfto, they already have an engine and already an alpha (smaller than beta test).

MeinCookie
May 16th, 2010, 01:28
But even if they did succeed... what would they come up with? That is my point. A game without direction.

EDIT ~
At any rate, you don't know how it will turn out... it is reckless to through away WtfO for that. Many others have fallen by the wayside. So hedging bets on OD is bad.

A New Room
May 16th, 2010, 02:19
Either way, I'll try to help out as evenly as possible on both WftO and OD.

dotted
May 16th, 2010, 02:35
But even if they did succeed... what would they come up with? That is my point. A game without direction.
OD has direction Wfto has none.

Hapuga
May 16th, 2010, 09:49
But even if they did succeed... what would they come up with? That is my point. A game without direction.

EDIT ~
At any rate, you don't know how it will turn out... it is reckless to through away WtfO for that. Many others have fallen by the wayside. So hedging bets on OD is bad.

How can you put a judgment without evidence? Did you play it? Then how can you claim that it has no direction?

I can say that we are currently totally disorganized, have no clear picture of what to do and are in a stalemate situation when nobody is doing anything. They, at the very least, have a picture, different, yes, I dont like their ideas, yes, but they HAVE it. We dont. Otherwise I cant explain how WFTO could be around for 2 years and not a slightest bit of progress was made. Except Bluto and Synth, who pretty much made all the work for themselves, for their personal fun of it and for the portfolio.

natchoguy
May 16th, 2010, 12:42
yeah... we haven't confirmed about half the things we want in Wfto (as in we still don't know what to put in)

dotted
May 16th, 2010, 12:44
yeah... we haven't confirmed about half the things we want in Wfto (as in we still don't know what to put in)

It is not about confirming stuff, that wont be possible until we reach 1.0

natchoguy
May 16th, 2010, 12:54
how can we even get close to completing it if we still don't know what we're going to put in?

Hapuga
May 16th, 2010, 12:59
(facepalm)
because it is not the matter of confirming some random user ideas. It is totally not the matter of that.

Metal Gear Rex
May 16th, 2010, 13:03
Isn't it more important to get an engine and other more obvious stuff implimented, then we can test the creature types and that's when we're able to confirm them?

natchoguy
May 16th, 2010, 13:04
@Hapuga

no but in general,the only thing we know about Wfto is that it is going to be in a DK style

Metal Gear Rex
May 16th, 2010, 13:07
@Hapuga

no but in general,the only thing we know about Wfto is that it is going to be in a DK style

That and the obvious rooms and creatures like the Lair, Hatchery, Training Room, Warlock, Bile Demon, etc.

We work with that information and then once we reach the right stage, we can test the new ideas and decide then if we impliment them or not depending on the results.

Edit:
lol, dotted has been like triple ninjaed XD

dotted
May 16th, 2010, 13:08
how can we even get close to completing it if we still don't know what we're going to put in?

The problem is that confirming anything at this point makes the thing sacred, you cannot remove it again if it doesnt work out.

I guess what i'm saying is that the project needs a director. Someone with a vision of the final game, someone who can say hey that's a nice idea, but can also say that the nice idea isn't going in the final game anyway because it didn't work out.

The current collaborative directing just isn't working at all, mainly because there are too many people who just have single ideas like creatures. No one has an overall goal.

Hapuga
May 16th, 2010, 13:43
I'll say even more =)

The project does not need 75% of people who are now in the "dev" team. They are unneeded due to their absolute incompetence, uselessness and their light-headed attitude towards the project.

People just cant get it how HUGE the "lets make a game" type of a project is. This type of a project will take all their free time, it will require their full integration and attention. It will 90% cost them real money, and these people should be willing and able to sacrifice that required amount.

In serious projects, nobody needs you brilliant ideas if you are useless to the project in overall. Everyone has brilliant ideas.

EDIT:

When Quenty resurrected the project, he made one single, but critical mistake. He started to recruit devs from keeperklan. FAIL. He should have gone to websites like gamedev.net, where serious people lurk, with 5-10-15 years of experience in the field.

dotted
May 16th, 2010, 13:51
So you wanna cut the dev team from 12 down to 3?

Hapuga
May 16th, 2010, 13:53
yes, I want to do that. Because there is no difference, if there are 5 people in the dev or 25, if the output is the same.

Edit
I will tell you even more! I will gladly pass my position to anyone who is more professional than I am.

dotted
May 16th, 2010, 13:55
yes, I want to do that. Because there is no difference, if there are 5 people in the dev or 25, if the output is the same.

Well the way i see it we have 5 people with jobs, so cutting down to 3 would be overkill and damaging :p

EDIT: Haven't we already been on gamedev though? And to me recollection that failed?

Hapuga
May 16th, 2010, 13:59
dotted, the "been" thing is not enough. If you want results (human resources), you have to "be" there all the time. throwing a message once or twice wont help at all. Dont expect people to rush in your project by jus mentioning it once somewhere.

dotted
May 16th, 2010, 14:00
dotted, the "been" thing is not enough. If you want results (human resources), you have to "be" there all the time. throwing a message once or twice wont help at all. Dont expect people to rush in your project by jus mentioning it once somewhere.

Let me clarify, it failed because we didn't and still do not have permission from EA.

Hapuga
May 16th, 2010, 14:01
So why is nobody getting it? An idiotic question it is, but.... what is everyone doing if it is the ONLY thing that drags us back (while it surely isnt)?

dotted
May 16th, 2010, 14:04
So why is nobody getting it? An idiotic question it is, but.... what is everyone doing if it is the ONLY thing that drags us back (while it surely isnt)?

Well the project needs a director as i pointed out a few posts back, someone to give the project direction.

Hapuga
May 16th, 2010, 14:04
And how are we planning to get him in?

Edit.

You see, it returns to my statement. The problem is not in the license, programming, whatever. The problem is in people.

dotted
May 16th, 2010, 14:12
And how are we planning to get him in?

Edit.

You see, it returns to my statement. The problem is not in the license, programming, whatever. The problem is in people.

I never said the license was a problem (other than on gamedev).

Hapuga
May 16th, 2010, 14:16
Anyway, I hope you understand why this project will never succeed. It needs a complete reconstruction.

Oh yes. And no matter how agistic it may sound...
It simply needs mature people. 22-25+

Synesthesia
May 16th, 2010, 16:08
Wow this thread is depressing...

Anybody know how much would it cost to hire a coder or two? just long enough to get us up and running, either with the current engine or using something like Ogre 3D. We briefly discussed paying for Richard Ridings services at one time. At the moment I don't really see any other option.

Edit: I just had a look at the Recruitment section of the Ogre 3D forums and it's not looking good. Most of the Job posts have no replies, even paid ones... :(

dotted
May 16th, 2010, 17:33
Wow this thread is depressing...

Anybody know how much would it cost to hire a coder or two? just long enough to get us up and running, either with the current engine or using something like Ogre 3D. We briefly discussed paying for Richard Ridings services at one time. At the moment I don't really see any other option.

Edit: I just had a look at the Recruitment section of the Ogre 3D forums and it's not looking good. Most of the Job posts have no replies, even paid ones... :(

That doesn't solve the problem of project direction, which is in my opinion the biggest problem currently.

Blutonium
May 16th, 2010, 18:07
We need someone to lead us with a clear vision for this project.

A New Room
May 16th, 2010, 20:22
I would say that project has been made too over complex. I think there is far too much project for people who haven't any experience in games design to handle.

If we do 180 it, I think we should look very hard and in great detail at the old games. See what factors really make the games great.

Ie:


How the dialogue is structured.

How to the characters act towards each other. (Note that the mentor in DK1 hardly, if ever, says "lets go here")

dotted
May 16th, 2010, 20:36
I would say that project has been made too over complex. I think there is far too much project for people who haven't any experience in games design to handle.

If we do 180 it, I think we should look very hard and in great detail at the old games. See what factors really make the games great.

Ie:


How the dialogue is structured.

How to the characters act towards each other. (Note that the mentor in DK1 hardly, if ever, says "lets go here")

Aren't you contradiction yourself? You say we have too much project, yet if we were to start over you would go into greater detail with it :p?

Hapuga
May 16th, 2010, 20:46
Realistically, our "team" can do a very very, VERY simple isometric strategy. with very basic interface.

Or, even more realistically, lets do a good old text rpg! =)

dotted
May 16th, 2010, 20:51
Realistically, our "team" can do a very very, VERY simple isometric strategy. with very basic interface.

Or, even more realistically, lets do a good old text rpg! =)

That depends entirely on time frame.

Hapuga
May 16th, 2010, 21:05
cool. should I freeze myself and unfreeze in one million years when WFTO will be a super awesome game? =-)

dotted
May 16th, 2010, 21:07
cool. should I freeze myself and unfreeze in one million years when WFTO will be a super awesome game? =-)

please do

Mothrayas
May 16th, 2010, 21:21
Actually, freezing yourself and then unfreezing alive is not possible because of the fact that-- *shot*

A New Room
May 16th, 2010, 21:21
What I mean is get a better scope of what we are to do, rather than saying "lets do this!" and then not really understand what it is we are doing. But then again that like a lot of this project is purely theory.

This project is really starting to become quite over stocked on depressing people and sarcasm, I really preferred it when it was just you guy and I was just the voice actor :P

Metal Gear Rex
May 17th, 2010, 02:24
We need someone to lead us with a clear vision for this project.


I would say that project has been made too over complex. I think there is far too much project for people who haven't any experience in games design to handle.

If we do 180 it, I think we should look very hard and in great detail at the old games. See what factors really make the games great.

Ie:


How the dialogue is structured.

How to the characters act towards each other. (Note that the mentor in DK1 hardly, if ever, says "lets go here")


Well I'd offer my services to said role but if complexion isn't wanted then... D:

That and I can think of a few members on board who "have something smart to say" and probably don't think I can do it just because they don't understand the difference between silly and serious.

I mean I'd like to lead this project, I believe it has alot of potential, but nobody seems to actually be giving full effort because it isn't that the ending is far away but that no ending is even in sight, as it was mentioned.

Does anyone else want to take on such a responsibility?

Wait a minute, isn't QwentyJ the leader and director of this project? Are you saying he's not even capable of foreseeing the end result? Or is he not here... because I don't remember the last time he appeared...

dotted
May 17th, 2010, 05:41
Wait a minute, isn't QwentyJ the ... director of this project?
Since when?

Metal Gear Rex
May 17th, 2010, 06:52
Since when?


•QwentyJ - Project Leader, Story & Campaign

If that's not the case then we have him moderating powers here why?

dotted
May 17th, 2010, 10:59
I don't see director anywhere...

A New Room
May 17th, 2010, 11:18
I think we should really wait for Qwerty to come back before we make any huge decisions in terms of team shifting. (Friday or the Monday after that would be my estimate, based on what he has posted in the Dev section). He is after all marked as Project Leader and absent.

Metal Gear Rex
May 17th, 2010, 11:43
I don't see director anywhere...

The definition of director and leader in this case would be quite similar. It wouldn't really matter which one we called Quenty since he still would fill the same shoes, the same role.

Anyways, there ARE more important matters to discuss than what title we give Quenty: "Project Director" or "Project Leader"

dotted
May 17th, 2010, 12:20
The definition of director and leader in this case would be quite similar. It wouldn't really matter which one we called Quenty since he still would fill the same shoes, the same role.

Anyways, there ARE more important matters to discuss than what title we give Quenty: "Project Director" or "Project Leader"

I disagree, being project leader has nothing to do with the direction of the game itself. The leader taking care of the project, making sure it doesnt fall apart a drasticly different function than creating a game from your own vision.

In short:
Project leader: Business position
Game director*: Creative position

In the movie business, the project leader would be what you call a producer, and the game director would be the director.

*I figured the term game director differentiates the role more, compared to project director.

Metal Gear Rex
May 17th, 2010, 12:32
I disagree, being project leader has nothing to do with the direction of the game itself. The leader taking care of the project, making sure it doesnt fall apart a drasticly different function than creating a game from your own vision.

In short:
Project leader: Business position
Game director*: Creative position

In the movie business, the project leader would be what you call a producer, and the game director would be the director.

*I figured the term game director differentiates the role more, compared to project director.

Are you so determined to prove you are right in something so pointless, that you're going to continue this instead of focusing on more important matters?

Yes this is pointless since nothing really comes out of it. We're arguing on definition. If this was something like a suggestion then it would be a different story, but it isn't so.

dotted
May 17th, 2010, 12:37
Are you so determined to prove you are right in something so pointless, that you're going to continue this instead of focusing on more important matters?

Yes this is pointless since nothing really comes out of it. We're arguing on definition. If this was something like a suggestion then it would be a different story, but it isn't so.

The thing i have been saying is there is NO game director, and that you need one. This is not about QwentyJ being the director or not, because he simply isn't as it is currently.

Metal Gear Rex
May 17th, 2010, 12:40
The thing i have been saying is there is NO game director, and that you need one. This is not about QwentyJ being the director or not, because he simply isn't as it is currently.

Was there/who was the director from before this little "revision"?

dotted
May 17th, 2010, 12:57
Was there/who was the director from before this little "revision"?

no one, it was collabrative (lol polls), but that just isnt working.

A New Room
May 17th, 2010, 13:14
I would think this should be put into the Vacancies and Job seeking thread, but either way I would like to put myself forward as an applicant for this. That is if there is no objection to it?

Synesthesia
May 17th, 2010, 13:49
The biggest problem facing any newly appointed director is going to be earning everyones trust and respect.

For example, if our new director decides to scrap a certain idea that's been around for a while (be it a creature, room or spell) because it doesn't fit in with their personal vision of the game, then the owners and supporters of that idea may take offense and arguments could start.

Metal Gear Rex
May 17th, 2010, 13:58
I would think this should be put into the Vacancies and Job seeking thread, but either way I would like to put myself forward as an applicant for this. That is if there is no objection to it?

Hmm...


no one, it was collabrative (lol polls), but that just isnt working.

I know! Let's start a poll! XD

Actually... isn't that how Asterick got in? O_o


The biggest problem facing any newly appointed director is going to be earning everyones trust and respect.

For example, if our new director decides to scrap a certain idea that's been around for a while (be it a creature, room or spell) because it doesn't fit in with their personal vision of the game, then the owners and supporters of that idea may take offense and arguments could start.

Yeah. But what's even more difficult is who will select said director? Then there will be objections and arguements before this new director is... well... a director. And do they have the time for this task? (I imagine it would take alot of time)

I'd like to be the director because I really would hate to see WftO go to waste like that. OD is nice, but there are some things (To avoid licence issues) that lose some of the original DK stuff. Unfortunately, I know a number of people who I don't exactly get along with, and those personal feelings will surely intervene with their judgement of any possibility that I could become director.

Even so, I'd still like to see this project go through.

dotted
May 17th, 2010, 13:58
The biggest problem facing any newly appointed director is going to be earning everyones trust and respect.

For example, if our new director decides to scrap a certain idea that's been around for a while (be it a creature, room or spell) because it doesn't fit in with their personal vision of the game, then the owners and supporters of that idea may take offense and arguments could start.

But wouldn't that be better than the current stalemate?

A New Room
May 17th, 2010, 14:04
So long as it is in some way an informed decision, yes.

Metal Gear Rex
May 17th, 2010, 14:07
Shouldn't we wait until Quenty comes by and has some say in this? I mean he IS Project Leader.

EDIT:
And now I feel as if people missed my last post. :(

A New Room
May 17th, 2010, 14:08
Shouldn't we wait until Quenty comes by and has some say in this? I mean he IS Project Leader.

I think we should really wait for Qwerty to come back before we make any huge decisions in terms of team shifting. (Friday or the Monday after that would be my estimate, based on what he has posted in the Dev section). He is after all marked as Project Leader and absent.

I thought that was the idea... :p

Metal Gear Rex
May 17th, 2010, 14:10
I thought that was the idea... :p

Yeah and nobody seemed to listen/it got burried somewhere.

Reminds me of the removal of the User Title, "WFTO Developer" from Bluto... I mentioned it first... :P

dotted
May 17th, 2010, 14:10
Shouldn't we wait until Quenty comes by and has some say in this? I mean he IS Project Leader.
We can discuss just fine without his input, we aren't doing anything other than simply discussing how to move on.



Reminds me of the removal of the User Title, "WFTO Developer" from Bluto... I mentioned it first... :P
I blame QwentyJ for that ;)

Metal Gear Rex
May 17th, 2010, 14:14
We can discuss just fine without his input, we aren't doing anything other than simply discussing how to move on.

Ah okay... but how would we decide this new Director anyhow? I mean it shouldn't be up to just Quenty. He may be project leader, but if this is to so important that we're not going anywhere without it... it shouldn't be under the decision of one being.


I blame QwentyJ for that ;)

Lol

Synesthesia
May 17th, 2010, 14:15
But wouldn't that be better than the current stalemate?

No, not really because unless the community agreed with 90% of the new director's decisions, then things would quickly fall apart and we'd be back here again before we know it.

Personally I think polls can work if they are done properly. If we give people a detailed written description of the pros and cons of each choice and how it will affect gameplay in the long run, then they'll be able to make an informed decision, and the community is involved as a whole.

I know polls can't be used for all decisions, there will be times when someone with past experience is needed in order to make the right choice for the game, but we simply don't have that at the moment.

dotted
May 17th, 2010, 14:23
Ah okay... but how would we decide this new Director anyhow? I mean it shouldn't be up to just Quenty. He may be project leader, but if this is to so important that we're not going anywhere without it... it shouldn't be under the decision of one being.
Well it is about having a greater plan for the project, you cannot simply assign someone the task and be done with it.

So basicly anyone who would like to be the director should should be able to show that they have a plan of some sort, they would need to have their own ideas about the prject (If they are just gonna mash suggestions together and put out the game we could "hire" anyone to do it).

That, and i would imagine being the director will be one of the more demanding tasks so being online frequently is preferable.

Those are just my thoughts.


No, not really because unless the community agreed with 90% of the new director's decisions, then things would quickly fall apart and we'd be back here again before we know it.

Personally I think polls can work if they are done properly. If we give people a detailed written description of the pros and cons of each choice and how it will affect gameplay in the long run, then they'll be able to make an informed decision, and the community is involved as a whole.

I know polls can't be used for all decisions, there will be times when someone with past experience is needed in order to make the right choice for the game, but we simply don't have that at the moment.
The problem with polls is that they will be based on ill informed voters. They see 1 issue, not the overall picture. They wont be thinking "how will this affect other gameplay elements", they just pick the choice they like the most in a poll, and in my opinion the game would loose any overall coherence.

Another issue is that polls are limited, you would only be able to use them when ideas to a particular issue have been fully explored. That would mean that a poll would only be feasible in 3-4 years after active development has started. Just look at http://forum.keeperklan.com/dropping-creatures-poll-t996.html prime example of a useless poll, it effectively limits our options two 3 different choices none of which are my suggestion (i believe that was on the old forum if my memory serves me right).

Not only that it is a slow process, it is gonna take ages just to get a decision.

But if all of those points are a non issue you will still need someone that can overrule a poll of the results simply doesnt fit with the final game

Metal Gear Rex
May 17th, 2010, 14:38
No, not really because unless the community agreed with 90% of the new director's decisions, then things would quickly fall apart and we'd be back here again before we know it.

Personally I think polls can work if they are done properly. If we give people a detailed written description of the pros and cons of each choice and how it will affect gameplay in the long run, then they'll be able to make an informed decision, and the community is involved as a whole.

I know polls can't be used for all decisions, there will be times when someone with past experience is needed in order to make the right choice for the game, but we simply don't have that at the moment.

Our community, even while small, does seem to have a wide variety of opinions. Some take at first glance, others can be quite ignorant about changing their original personal liking. I'm sure you've seen some arguements that do show some difference. We can't even get such a high rating on some of the things the original DK had.

Some examples are Word of Power Creature Spell doing damage, Boulder Traps being overly powerful, Guard Post exploid, etc. There are always going to be that kind of thing, even with polls. People will argue quite alot on polls. But without a director of some kind, I suppose how will we decide overall with the final decision?

It is also hard and difficult to get such details of a pro or con without personal influence. Whoever writes these must not have alot of personal influence. And if the developers behind the scenes work on Pros or Cons, we could begin an arguement there on personal influence. It isn't needed, and would be incredibly time consuming for a variety of these polls to get them right.

It isn't that we don't have someone who can fill a developer's shoes, it is more so that we don't have anyone who obvious to decide on.

Or at least this is how I see it.


Well it is about having a greater plan for the project, you cannot simply assign someone the task and be done with it.

So basicly anyone who would like to be the director should should be able to show that they have a plan of some sort, they would need to have their own ideas about the prject (If they are just gonna mash suggestions together and put out the game we could "hire" anyone to do it).

That, and i would imagine being the director will be one of the more demanding tasks so being online frequently is preferable.

Those are just my thoughts.

If it were as that easy, we would probably be in a WftO lobby getting ready to play a match with each other.

I would like to be the director, shall I try and make some kind of proposal now or after Quenty gets some say?

And I am online quite often. [Nonserious moment]:)[/Nonserious moment] (No I don't take smilies very seriously)


The problem with polls is that they will be based on ill informed voters. They see 1 issue, not the overall picture. They wont be thinking "how will this affect other gameplay elements", they just pick the choice they like the most in a poll, and in my opinion the game would loose any overall coherence.

Another issue is that polls are limited, you would only be able to use them when ideas to a particular issue have been fully explored. That would mean that a poll would only be feasible in 3-4 years after active development has started. Just look at http://forum.keeperklan.com/dropping-creatures-poll-t996.html prime example of a useless poll, it effectively limits our options two 3 different choices none of which are my suggestion (i believe that was on the old forum if my memory serves me right).

Not only that it is a slow process, it is gonna take ages just to get a decision.

But if all of those points are a non issue you will still need someone that can overrule a poll of the results simply doesnt fit with the final game

I agree with you 100% there, dotted.

Agzarah
May 17th, 2010, 14:40
it sounds to me like we need some form of election

if everyone feels that no one person should be able to decide who gets that job, then why not have all the applicants create their own thread as to how they would go about taking control and giving this project some direction etc
and 'argue' their case for why they should get the role

then from that everyone can make their own descisions as to who they believe should run it. and a final poll can be made and people can vote

getting people to present their reasonings would hopefully eliminate the "it sounds cool to do" people and will leave only the ones who actually sound liek they understand the full extent of the role, and what to do with it

dotted
May 17th, 2010, 14:42
it sounds to me like we need some form of election

if everyone feels that no one person should be able to decide who gets that job, then why not have all the applicants create their own thread as to how they would go about taking control and giving this project some direction etc
and 'argue' their case for why they should get the role

then from that everyone can make their own descisions as to who they believe should run it. and a final poll can be made and people can vote

getting people to present their reasonings would hopefully eliminate the "it sounds cool to do" people and will leave only the ones who actually sound liek they understand the full extent of the role, and what to do with it

Which would then make the election about who has the best idea, and not about who is most qualified. It is absolutely vital that whoever gets this job is also qualified for it.

Metal Gear Rex
May 17th, 2010, 14:42
it sounds to me like we need some form of election

if everyone feels that no one person should be able to decide who gets that job, then why not have all the applicants create their own thread as to how they would go about taking control and giving this project some direction etc
and 'argue' their case for why they should get the role

then from that everyone can make their own descisions as to who they believe should run it. and a final poll can be made and people can vote

getting people to present their reasonings would hopefully eliminate the "it sounds cool to do" people and will leave only the ones who actually sound liek they understand the full extent of the role, and what to do with it

Sounds like you may have missed some points. Trust me, even if people "just think it sounds cool", they'll still put up a fight on who they want. It is that personal influence that I feel should not be.


Which would then make the election about who has the best idea, and not about who is most qualified. It is absolutely vital that whoever gets this job is also qualified for it.

Again I agree with you there. You've nailed anything I missed... amazing how a page ago we were arguing...

Hapuga
May 17th, 2010, 14:43
MGR, please state your vision of the project.

Please, tell us how are you going to find the required people for the project. Also please state how you see yourself as a leader. Please, tell how you see the work done on the project, in what order who is doing what etc.

And the most important thing. Do you have experience in leading such projects? If yes, please list the projects you participated in.

dotted
May 17th, 2010, 14:44
MGR, please state your vision of the project.

Please, tell us how are you going to find the required people for the project. Also please state how you see yourself as a leader. Please, tell how you see the work done on the project, in what order who is doing what etc.

And the most important thing. Do you have experience in leading such projects? If yes, please list the projects you participated in.

Read the damn thread first, we already have a leader fucking hell

A New Room
May 17th, 2010, 14:44
I'm kind of cautious of an election, since with a community this small there isn't going to be a very clear winner. :/

Metal Gear Rex
May 17th, 2010, 14:45
I'm kind of cautious of an election, since with a community this small there isn't going to be a very clear winner. :/

What would really be a twist is a tie.

@Hapuga
I wish to apply for director, the vital job we're missing, and not leader, the vital job we have.

Hapuga
May 17th, 2010, 14:46
dotted, why wont you go and chill a little bit, you look a bit on the edge. And be meaning specific, not definition specific.

dotted
May 17th, 2010, 14:47
dotted, why wont you go and chill a little bit, you look a bit on the edge. And be meaning specific, not definition specific.

No your post(s) are currently deviating this thread because you have some kind of personal vendetta against MGR.

Hapuga
May 17th, 2010, 14:50
I have a personal vendetta against those who try to get into the project without any understanding about what they will do. I dont care who direct the project, MGR, you, me, the guy next door, as soon as it goes the right direction.

Please, dont apply your guessworks to me. I hate nobody here.

dotted
May 17th, 2010, 14:56
I have a personal vendetta against those who try to get into the project without any understanding about what they will do. I dont care who direct the project, MGR, you, me, the guy next door, as soon as it goes the right direction.

Please, dont apply your guessworks to me. I hate nobody here.

Then why


MGR, please state your vision of the project.

Please, tell us how are you going to find the required people for the project. Also please state how you see yourself as a leader. Please, tell how you see the work done on the project, in what order who is doing what etc.

And the most important thing. Do you have experience in leading such projects? If yes, please list the projects you participated in.

those questions have something to do with leading and not directing. We are not discussing a replacement for QwentyJ.

But if you had any understanding yourself wouldnt you also be aware that those who are willing to step up would need some time to think, noone will be able to flesh out a design plan for wfto over the course of 5 minutes.

Hapuga
May 17th, 2010, 14:59
(facepalm)
dotted, are you in the mood for arguing, or I dont get it?

The WFTO has been around for two years, everyone has a view about it. Not everyone's view will lead to successful project completion.

Now stop spamming. seriously. I will delete all the trash from this thread.

Agzarah
May 17th, 2010, 15:03
Sounds like you may have missed some points.
i may have chosen to overlook a few of the points, agreed

but i think you missed the key point of my post- as did others

the key thing to my post was the word "HOW"
ideas doesnt really come into the HOW
saying i want to do this, want to do that, gonna take the game this way, not that way

those are all ideas, and the winner woudl be the one with the most popular ones

that is NOT what i meant by an election/poll

if people put forward HOW they are going to take the project forward in the said directions you can get an idea of what experience they may have.

Hapuga
May 17th, 2010, 15:06
At last, someone with bright head.

dotted
May 17th, 2010, 15:08
(facepalm)
dotted, are you in the mood for arguing, or I dont get it?

The WFTO has been around for two years, everyone has a view about it. Not everyone's view will lead to successful project completion.

Now stop spamming. seriously. I will delete all the trash from this thread.

No, i was discussing with the others how to move the project forward - that was until you came along obviously which caused the thread to deviate, again thanks to you. Now we are in a situation where those I was discussing with have now gone and putting the whole thing on a halt.

Now it is my turn to ask question, is it your job to sabotage any attempt at moving the project forward?

PS. I suggest you don't delete anything, as neither of us are in a position to objectively decide what to delete.



i may have chosen to overlook a few of the points, agreed

but i think you missed the key point of my post- as did others

the key thing to my post was the word "HOW"
ideas doesnt really come into the HOW
saying i want to do this, want to do that, gonna take the game this way, not that way

those are all ideas, and the winner woudl be the one with the most popular ones

that is NOT what i meant by an election/poll

if people put forward HOW they are going to take the project forward in the said directions you can get an idea of what experience they may have.
Ah i misread you then, this is certainly what i had in mind.

Agzarah
May 17th, 2010, 15:13
if you thinks hes arguing, dont rise to the challenge

or if he thinks you are arguing, dont prove him right

either of you can decide if you are "he" or "you" but the point is the same

Both of you are making valid points but lets not have those get ovewhelmed by floods of needless comments




Ah i misread you then, this is certainly what i had in mind.
not a problem - i can see how it was quite clearly overlooked, after all it was jsut one small word
but in the correct contex, one word can make a hell of a difference

Synesthesia
May 17th, 2010, 16:19
Ok I'm happy to have prospective Director candidates post their prosposals. Maybe we should write a description of exactly what the role entails so that there is no further confusion with the role of Project Leader.

dotted
May 17th, 2010, 16:34
Ok I'm happy to have prospective Director candidates post their prosposals. Maybe we should write a description of exactly what the role entails so that there is no further confusion with the role of Project Leader.

Sounds like an idea, but you should wait for QwentyJ before starting anything.

Kopavel
May 17th, 2010, 19:18
Lol... why do you need a director? You need a lead developer xD
CEO's wont help moving the game forward, except for making a visibility of activity like you have/had now.
And the idea with polls is most absurd... will you make a poll, like, hey - what do I write
a) a = b + c;
b) a = b * c;
c) a = (++b) * pow(c, 2) - .1f;
???
Some 14 year guy voting for c) will make a difference

dotted
May 17th, 2010, 19:27
Lol... why do you need a director? You need a lead developer xD
CEO's wont help moving the game forward, except for making a visibility of activity like you have/had now.
And the idea with polls is most absurd... will you make a poll, like, hey - what do I write
a) a = b + c;
b) a = b * c;
c) a = (++b) * pow(c, 2) - .1f;
???
Some 14 year guy voting for c) will make a difference
What part of this article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_director) says anything about CEOs?

Now could we please cut the noise in this thread?

zerg_rush
May 17th, 2010, 23:21
Hey guys, no offense, but have you, you know, tried to actually advertise for a programmer? There are plenty of those people whilling to work for free on places like gamedev.com forums. You guys don't seem to lack artwork nor any of that stuff, so I trust it won't be that hard to get one or two decent programmers.

A New Room
May 18th, 2010, 00:16
We have tried (http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=558182), but the thread got locked. :(

Agzarah
May 18th, 2010, 09:10
and lets say we do employ a programmer..
whats he going to code if we dont know ourselves?

A New Room
May 18th, 2010, 10:56
That is probably the reason dotted is suggesting a Game Director. Some one who can basically say clearly what they think WftO will move and feel like.

zerg_rush
May 18th, 2010, 11:46
We have tried (http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=558182), but the thread got locked. :(

Well that moderator was a major asshole, but you guys did some things wrong too. First of all you should've never announced your project as being a DK sequel as that puts you in direct conflict with EA's copyrights. Second, I think you should've avoided terminology close to dungeon keeper. You should've called the project "a dungeon simulator" or something in the likes. You oughta realize most of gamedev mods are a bunch of frustrated idiots who can't stand seeing a project succeed more than their own and thus, have a special pleasure in taking down projects that claim tend ot be associated to official trademarks, as those tend to be an easy prey. The trick is to keep a low profile to mods, and answer all question regarding the project's theme and inspiration in a vague manner, so they won't be able to take your thread down without having to directly denounce you first, which technically is a position of disvantage on basic argumentation. On the other hand, technical details should be incisive and clear when answering to possible candidates.

I think you guys shouldn't quit so prematurely. You have loads of stuff to show, and I trust it wont be that hard to look for a decent programmer. Create a simple design doc, outlining most basic features, while compiling a small wishlist of probable ones in an organized manner, so you can hand it directly to any applying talent. And finally be persistant. Keep creating threads in multiple forums. giving a minimum time span so previous ones can get archived. Search other online communities like those built around game engines who mainly composed by amateur or intermediate programmers. Go to IRC and attempt to engage conversation into several game development channels.

Heck the possibilities are limitless, and you already have a lot more than most amateur projects.

dotted
May 18th, 2010, 12:19
Well that moderator was a major asshole, but you guys did some things wrong too. First of all you should've never announced your project as being a DK sequel as that puts you in direct conflict with EA's copyrights. Second, I think you should've avoided terminology close to dungeon keeper. You should've called the project "a dungeon simulator" or something in the likes. You oughta realize most of gamedev mods are a bunch of frustrated idiots who can't stand seeing a project succeed more than their own and thus, have a special pleasure in taking down projects that claim tend ot be associated to official trademarks, as those tend to be an easy prey. The trick is to keep a low profile to mods, and answer all question regarding the project's theme and inspiration in a vague manner, so they won't be able to take your thread down without having to directly denounce you first, which technically is a position of disvantage on basic argumentation. On the other hand, technical details should be incisive and clear when answering to possible candidates.
So you want to decieve new members? That doesn't sound like a smart move. There is no denying that this is a spritual successor to the DK franchise. What needs to be done is that the "Hasslers of EA" do their job and contact EA and hopefully get permission.


I think you guys shouldn't quit so prematurely. You have loads of stuff to show, and I trust it wont be that hard to look for a decent programmer. Create a simple design doc, outlining most basic features, while compiling a small wishlist of probable ones in an organized manner, so you can hand it directly to any applying talent. And finally be persistant. Keep creating threads in multiple forums. giving a minimum time span so previous ones can get archived. Search other online communities like those built around game engines who mainly composed by amateur or intermediate programmers. Go to IRC and attempt to engage conversation into several game development channels.
No one is quitting, this thread is quite old actually.

Agzarah
May 18th, 2010, 12:24
i dont think he means deceive as such
just dont make it public attentions

if some one is interested you can always inform them privately and if they want to continue then great.

but stating from the get go and having a mini flame war is as good as entitling the thread "THIS IS ILEAGLE, but..."
and that isnt going to get you very far - and as shown last time, the thread locked

zerg_rush
May 18th, 2010, 12:28
So you want to decieve new members? That doesn't sound like a smart move. There is no denying that this is a spritual successor to the DK franchise. What needs to be done is that the "Hasslers of EA" do their job and contact EA and hopefully get permission.

That's not deceiving. It's actually the truth. WFTO will never be a DK sequel simply because it's not officially supported by the detainers of the copyright. Claiming it's a simple dungeon simulator is no lie either, since everyone is allowed to take their own conclusions. A person who is not familiar with the franchise will probably end up knowing the same regardless of him/her knowing about original DK. Claiming inspiration on Dungeon Keeper might be allowed on certain game development communities, but apparently gamedev is an exception. So sometimes one has to be witty. You're already on the borderline of legality the second you chose to begin this project, so I suggest you don't cross that treshold to the wrong side. Besides, it's not that you've previously removed "Dungeon Keeper 3" from the title when you created the gamedev thread, as opposed to your moddb profile.

dotted
May 18th, 2010, 12:29
i dont think he means deceive as such
just dont make it public attentions

if some one is interested you can always inform them privately and if they want to continue then great.

but stating from the get go and having a mini flame war is as good as entitling the thread "THIS IS ILEAGLE, but..."
and that isnt going to get you very far - and as shown last time, the thread locked

Which is why we should get permission from EA. Doing what has been suggested is bad faith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_faith) and is just as illegal.

zerg_rush
May 18th, 2010, 12:34
Which is why we should get permission from EA. Doing what has been suggested is bad faith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_faith) and is just as illegal.

Don't be fools. Not only that will never happen, as things wouldn't change much if they ever did. Ever heard the designation of "game clone"? That's what WTFO needs to turn into in order to avoid legal issues and develop itself conceptually. Doesn't have to be an exact copy, but then again, it doesn't have to be officially supported either. EA would sooner hand the DK rights to some obnoxious chinese MMO developers than to a devoted fan community.

oh wait...

Metal Gear Rex
May 18th, 2010, 12:34
That's not deceiving. It's actually the truth. WFTO will never be a DK sequel simply because it's not officially supported by the detainers of the copyright. Claiming it's a simple dungeon simulator is no lie either, since everyone is allowed to take their own conclusions. A person who is not familiar with the franchise will probably end up knowing the same regardless of him/her knowing about original DK. Claiming inspiration on Dungeon Keeper might be allowed on certain game development communities, but apparently gamedev is an exception. So sometimes one has to be witty. You're already on the borderline of legality the second you chose to begin this project, so I suggest you don't cross that treshold to the wrong side. Besides, it's not that you've previously removed "Dungeon Keeper 3" from the title when you created the gamedev thread, as opposed to your moddb profile.

Actually, getting someone who is familiar with DK would be better than decieving someone who's not. If they're familiar than DK, there's a good chance it is because they like it (Since if they didn't, they wouldn't have played it long enough to remember it :P)

That is good, it means they'll be more so motivated to help us out.

Yes as dotted said, it still would be legal. I don't see Bile Demons and Horned Reapers as common creatures.

zerg_rush
May 18th, 2010, 12:41
Actually, getting someone who is familiar with DK would be better than decieving someone who's not. If they're familiar than DK, there's a good chance it is because they like it (Since if they didn't, they wouldn't have played it long enough to remember it :P)

That is good, it means they'll be more so motivated to help us out.

Yes as dotted said, it still would be legal. I don't see Bile Demons and Horned Reapers as common creatures.

But like Azgarah said, one can do that privately. And as far as creatures go, I don't think the names other than "Horned Reaper" are copyrighted. even if they were, legally you could still keep the same appearance as long as you renamed them.

Seriosuly, I suggest you do a bit of research on game clones. Some of 'em don't even care if they're using graphics from the original. It's not that EA really cares about DK, you know, it's just that looks bad on public eye and often leads to U GONNA GIT SUED comments. Even when that rarely or pretty much never happens.

dotted
May 18th, 2010, 12:58
Don't be fools. Not only that will never happen, as things wouldn't change much if they ever did. Ever heard the designation of "game clone"? That's what WTFO needs to turn into in order to avoid legal issues and develop itself conceptually. Doesn't have to be an exact copy, but then again, it doesn't have to be officially supported either. EA would sooner hand the DK rights to some obnoxious chinese MMO developers than to a devoted fan community.

oh wait...

K (http://www.apathbeyond.com/)

And since you don't know, these guy have permission and they have several times been promoted by EA itself, so yeah EA has a record of giving project such as this permission and there are several other projects aswell using EA IP.



But like Azgarah said, one can do that privately. And as far as creatures go, I don't think the names other than "Horned Reaper" are copyrighted. even if they were, legally you could still keep the same appearance as long as you renamed them.

Seriosuly, I suggest you do a bit of research on game clones. Some of 'em don't even care if they're using graphics from the original. It's not that EA really cares about DK, you know, it's just that looks bad on public eye and often leads to U GONNA GIT SUED comments. Even when that rarely or pretty much never happens.
And again there is still a legal issue doung this, EA could still sue us regardless.

Synesthesia
May 18th, 2010, 12:59
and lets say we do employ a programmer..
whats he going to code if we dont know ourselves?

Well we already have a basic list of the rooms, creatures and spells that we know are going into the game. All we need to do is make a list of the things that we would like to see in the next version of wfto, such as:

-add three new creatures, using low poly models from Bluto, and give them some basic AI (walking from point to point, buiding a lair).

-Start to modify the engine to suit the graphical needs of wfto (ie: modelling some of the new 'blocks' that will make up the new rooms and walls)

-Decide on the best method of storing textures, seeking advice if needed. (We're currently using NBKE's method of an Atlas file)

-Get the art department to work on some new, placeholder textures.

-Get the art department to start work on a new GUI.

I'm sure that's enough to get us to the next version.

Metal Gear Rex
May 18th, 2010, 13:02
But like Azgarah said, one can do that privately. And as far as creatures go, I don't think the names other than "Horned Reaper" are copyrighted. even if they were, legally you could still keep the same appearance as long as you renamed them.

Seriosuly, I suggest you do a bit of research on game clones. Some of 'em don't even care if they're using graphics from the original. It's not that EA really cares about DK, you know, it's just that looks bad on public eye and often leads to U GONNA GIT SUED comments. Even when that rarely or pretty much never happens.

You need to pay more attention. If we were working towards a game clone, then we probably would be talking in a thread called NBKE, not WFTO.

A New Room
May 18th, 2010, 13:02
K (http://www.apathbeyond.com/)

And since you don't know, these guy have permission and they have several times been promoted by EA itself, so yeah EA has a record of giving project such as this permission and there are several other projects aswell using EA IP.

It isn't really written that they have permission, just that EA is aware of them.

Also they are using an engine that was previously used to make EA games, though I don't think that is really much of a factor as Renegade X (http://www.moddb.com/mods/renegade-x) uses the Unreal 3 engine. To be honest I don't really think EA give permission to use IPs they own unless you can pay them.

Metal Gear Rex
May 18th, 2010, 13:27
K (http://www.apathbeyond.com/)

And since you don't know, these guy have permission and they have several times been promoted by EA itself, so yeah EA has a record of giving project such as this permission and there are several other projects aswell using EA IP.

I still think we need to get something working before attempting to approach EA. I wouldn't want to piss them off and ruin our chances of something happening with our "EA Hasselers", before we even show them we're serious.

Agzarah
May 18th, 2010, 13:58
approaching ea is never going to work tbh

immagine if you owned an extinguished game franchise and didnt care about it
then some guys said can we use the name
KAPOW - interest is repsarked
this once dead genre has an active audience, and people willing to make the game
ea are then gonne either go "NO" like they did with the doom3 DK mod and forcefully shut it down or say "yeah sure... it'l cost you £100k
http://www.moddb.com/forum/thread/dungeon-keeper-iii 6th post i believe


its supply and demand really.

we demand it, they'l supply it... but it'l cost you more


The best bet is a Clone.
similar enough to DK that we know and love it as DK, but isnt.

Agzarah
May 18th, 2010, 14:15
wasnt nbke a copy of DK1? which makes me think youve missunderstood the word "clone"

a clone in game terms doesnt mean an exact copy of a specific game
but the franchise/genre etc eg you cold say rollercoaster tycoon is a theme park clone. essentially the same game, but sufficiently different to not infringe on copywrite/liscence

making a DK clone doesnt mean it has to be DK1 or 2. but a game where by the player controlls a dungeon, attracts creatures digs out rock etc..

the ideas are the same, it plays the same, but the exact visual/audio, names etc are different

A New Room
May 18th, 2010, 14:31
It could work, but it would mean renaming a lot of the content and could in the end be counter productive (could look like we are trying to steal the IP by dressing it up).

But tbh I'm pretty sure that EA aren't going to attack us unless we are selling it.

Synesthesia
May 18th, 2010, 14:44
But tbh I'm pretty sure that EA aren't going to attack us unless we are selling it.

What makes you so sure?

The guy with the Doom 3 mod said that he made it abundantly clear to EA that no money would be involved, and look at what happened there. I'd like to know how A Path Beyond got the green light.

Agzarah
May 18th, 2010, 14:44
i know that link i posted is 4 years old, but they still shut that guy down even though he wasnt selling it. they demanded $100k from him - Edit doh you beat me

dotted
May 18th, 2010, 14:46
approaching ea is never going to work tbh
Didnt i just prove that it does?

Agzarah
May 18th, 2010, 14:59
Didnt i just prove that it does?
where?

Agzarah
May 18th, 2010, 15:05
I'd like to know how A Path Beyond got the green light.

im guessing its due to the fact that the RA universe is based on completely real entities (first one atleast - cold war etc), so EA dont exactly 'own' them, and that its an FPS simply based in a world that is similar to that of RA.
ea recognise it because they cant sue, but by supporting it, it gives the possibility of drawing people into their own RA games?
but thats just a guess

dotted
May 18th, 2010, 15:21
K (http://www.apathbeyond.com/)
Here

Synesthesia
May 18th, 2010, 15:27
I think we should contact the makers of APB and ask for their advice on how to approach EA. EA are obviously happy to let them use their brand names in their project so we should find out how they won them over.

dotted
May 18th, 2010, 15:33
im guessing its due to the fact that the RA universe is based on completely real entities (first one atleast - cold war etc), so EA dont exactly 'own' them, and that its an FPS simply based in a world that is similar to that of RA.
ea recognise it because they cant sue, but by supporting it, it gives the possibility of drawing people into their own RA games?
but thats just a guess
MAD Tank, Chronosphere and all that jazz is based on real entities? You are kidding right?

Agzarah
May 18th, 2010, 15:35
Here

didnt realise that was a link

Agzarah
May 18th, 2010, 15:48
i did say "first game" which didnt have either of those in.
and actually, yes. They are based on real entities. not exactly correct ones, but based upon

MAD Tank

Mutual assured destruction (MAD) is a doctrine of military strategy and national security policy in which a full-scale use of nuclear weapons by two opposing sides would effectively result in the destruction of both the attacker and the defender.[1]

odly enough, a HUGE variable in the cold war, in which RA was set

Chronosphere is based on a principal that time and space is set into 2 hemispheres, past and future - in RA however its a teleporter, which doesnt quite make sense with Chrono meaning time, but i suppose you could justify that by saying they time travel, move to the location, and travel back?

i suppose next you are going to tell me that westwood invented the telsa coil

dotted
May 18th, 2010, 15:56
i did say "first game" which didnt have either of those in.
Chronosphere most certainly, MAD Tank was in the aftermath expansion but this changes the arhuement how?


and actually, yes. They are based on real entities. not exactly correct ones, but based upon

MAD Tank

Mutual assured destruction (MAD) is a doctrine of military strategy and national security policy in which a full-scale use of nuclear weapons by two opposing sides would effectively result in the destruction of both the attacker and the defender.[1]
By that defenition everything is based on something real, good luck with that in court.


Chronosphere is based on a principal that time and space is set into 2 hemispheres, past and future - in RA however its a teleporter, which doesnt quite make sense with Chrono meaning time, but i suppose you could justify that by saying they time travel, move to the location, and travel back?

i suppose next you are going to tell me that westwood invented the telsa coil
But this still doesnt change the arguement now does it? EA would easily win in court of APB didnt have permission and EA sued.

A New Room
May 18th, 2010, 16:02
I think we should contact the makers of APB and ask for their advice on how to approach EA. EA are obviously happy to let them use their brand names in their project so we should find out how they won them over.

*shrug* kyle has tried to contact their lead producer but hasn't got any reply.


What makes you so sure?

The guy with the Doom 3 mod said that he made it abundantly clear to EA that no money would be involved, and look at what happened there. I'd like to know how A Path Beyond got the green light.

As crap as it may sound: Google has no results for "EA Sues fan project" or "Electronic Arts order cease and desist". Either they do it really quietly, everyone fears them doing it or they don't really care.

Synesthesia
May 18th, 2010, 16:17
We should try again. I'll join their forum later and see if can find anything out. Did IKSLM have permission to make NBKE? I'm sure I remember reading that he had it. I've still got his email so I'll ask him.

Synesthesia
May 18th, 2010, 16:47
*shrug* kyle has tried to contact their lead producer but hasn't got any reply.



As crap as it may sound: Google has no results for "EA Sues fan project" or "Electronic Arts order cease and desist". Either they do it really quietly, everyone fears them doing it or they don't really care.

I just typed in "C&D from EA" into Yahoo search and it came back with two results, so it does happen, just quietly as you said.

http://uk.search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A1f4cfhytfJLPQABZb9LBQx.?p=%22C%26D+fr om+EA%22&fr2=sb-top&fr=yfp-t-702&rd=r1&sao=1

dotted
May 18th, 2010, 17:07
By the way why are we even discussing not to contact EA and get permission?

kyle
May 18th, 2010, 17:12
They don't seem to have C&D'd much

dotted
May 18th, 2010, 18:34
Took the easy way out and edited the title just in case people are misunderstanding the title of the thread.

Metal Gear Rex
May 18th, 2010, 20:00
wasnt nbke a copy of DK1? which makes me think youve missunderstood the word "clone"

a clone in game terms doesnt mean an exact copy of a specific game
but the franchise/genre etc eg you cold say rollercoaster tycoon is a theme park clone. essentially the same game, but sufficiently different to not infringe on copywrite/liscence

making a DK clone doesnt mean it has to be DK1 or 2. but a game where by the player controlls a dungeon, attracts creatures digs out rock etc..

the ideas are the same, it plays the same, but the exact visual/audio, names etc are different

Copy, clone, the first line makes you sound kinda stupid since they're relatively similar.

But yes in game terms they are quite different. I'll give you a better example.

Fine then, if you think we should aim for avoiding EA altogether and make a clone? Then quit your whining and go here (http://forum.freegamedev.net/viewforum.php?f=15&sid=6925e0b7f95ccba2972de96162ae6b8e) and help with the "Open Dungeons" project. They are making a clone.

They're aiming for the Dungeon Keeper feel but it is clearly far enough from DK to avoid any legal matters. They're finding ways to make similar stuff for some unique DK stuff like the Dungeon Heart yet it is farther away from the original concept. A clone in other words.

There's no point in having two projects with the same goal, especially if one has things the other doesn't and vice versa. So quit disturbing with WftO's path. It is quite unneccessary.

zerg_rush
May 18th, 2010, 21:21
Copy, clone, the first line makes you sound kinda stupid since they're relatively similar.

But yes in game terms they are quite different. I'll give you a better example.

Fine then, if you think we should aim for avoiding EA altogether and make a clone? Then quit your whining and go here (http://forum.freegamedev.net/viewforum.php?f=15&sid=6925e0b7f95ccba2972de96162ae6b8e) and help with the "Open Dungeons" project. They are making a clone.

They're aiming for the Dungeon Keeper feel but it is clearly far enough from DK to avoid any legal matters. They're finding ways to make similar stuff for some unique DK stuff like the Dungeon Heart yet it is farther away from the original concept. A clone in other words.

There's no point in having two projects with the same goal, especially if one has things the other doesn't and vice versa. So quit disturbing with WftO's path. It is quite unneccessary.

Sorry but I disagree. Just because two projects are clones it doesn't mean they have the same goals. Besides what's the point of having "dungeon keeper" in the name? It's just designation, what matters is the game itself. It wasn't even gonna be a straight copy of older games in the first place, so one might aswell resume the project and, if you guys wish, contact EA in the meantime. If they give permission, well that's good, but if they don't, just keep it renamed. Simple as that. After all would you rather have a project with a different name or no project at all? I think the choice is rather obvious.

For someone who played Dungeon Keeper for so long, you guys surely haven't learned the Keeper's Way of doing things, that is to say, if the tunnel is blocked, dig around.

Oh and.


Didnt i just prove that it does?

No.


It isn't really written that they have permission, just that EA is aware of them.

Also they are using an engine that was previously used to make EA games, though I don't think that is really much of a factor as Renegade X (http://www.moddb.com/mods/renegade-x) uses the Unreal 3 engine. To be honest I don't really think EA give permission to use IPs they own unless you can pay them.

What he said. Path Beyond is a mod of a game whose engine was released as a standalone. It doesn't even infringe copyright laws as it is modding on the same copyright as the original.

dotted
May 18th, 2010, 21:32
Sorry but I disagree. Just because two projects are clones it doesn't mean they have the same goals. Besides what's the point of having "dungeon keeper" in the name? It's just designation, what matters is the game itself. It wasn't even gonna be a straight copy of older games in the first place, so one might aswell resume the project and, if you guys wish, contact EA in the meantime. If they give permission, well that's good, but if they don't, just keep it renamed. Simple as that. After all would you rather have a project with a different name or no project at all? I think the choice is rather obvious.
Since when is this about the name? Perhaps you should lurk a bit more and understand what we are trying to do first?


No.
Yes.


What he said. Path Beyond is a mod of a game whose engine was released as a standalone. It doesn't even infringe copyright laws as it is modding on the same copyright as the original.
APB is a game not a mod. It it would be infringing copyright had they not permission.

By the way please respond to
By the way why are we even discussing not to contact EA and get permission?
or dont bother at all.

zerg_rush
May 18th, 2010, 21:47
Since when is this about the name? Perhaps you should lurk a bit more and understand what we are trying to do first?

All I see right now is what you're not doing. And the reasons for that seem to be related with your stubborness on presenting this project as a sequel to DK rather than a more humble approach, as you've been making clear with your position. That's the thin line that separates new member support from getting your recruitment threads closed. See where it has brought you so far.



APB is a game not a mod. It it would be infringing copyright had they not permission.

APB was a mod that subsequentially got released as a standalone. There's a huge difference on that.



By the way please respond to
or dont bother at all.

You can do that while developing at the same time. Refering to my previous line:


so one might aswell resume the project and, if you guys wish, contact EA in the meantime. If they give permission, well that's good, but if they don't, just keep it renamed. Simple as that.

dotted
May 18th, 2010, 22:00
All I see right now is what you're not doing. And the reasons for that seem to be related with your stubborness on presenting this project as a sequel to DK rather than a more humble approach, as you've been making clear with your position. That's the thin line that separates new member support from getting your recruitment threads closed. See where it has brought you so far.
Nothing is stopping the current team working on something related to the game.

The problem is we want the permission from EA, we want to stay true to the originals. And that just isn't gonna happen with a clone, and to be honest a clone is only relevant if we dont get the permission from EA. You are trying to convince to not go and get permission, and i'm pretty damn sure no one wants to do that.


APB was a mod that subsequentially got released as a standalone. There's a huge difference on that.
No.


You can do that while developing at the same time. Refering to my previous line:
Sure, but I don't have mental powers to control people.

A New Room
May 18th, 2010, 22:15
I really think we have a pretty good idea of what everyone is trying to say, though this is just turning into a bit of a ridiculously repetitive discussion.

So could we please put the posting for the sake of argument to the side?

zerg_rush
May 18th, 2010, 22:26
I really think we have a pretty good idea of what everyone is trying to say, though this is just turning into a bit of a ridiculously repetitive discussion.

So could we please put the posting for the sake of argument to the side?

I agree. I'll delete my previous post, as this was turning into a huge strawman-for-a-discussion. Reposting the last part of it however:

Either way, I propose we organize all current data, in a coherent design and start a new PR campaign. Pick some forums, target some communities, and get busy once again. I can try pull out some contacts of my own. Getting some programmers shouldn't be too hard. So far I wasn't able to find out about what engine are you guys currently using. Could someone clarify that for me?

Metal Gear Rex
May 18th, 2010, 22:47
I really think we have a pretty good idea of what everyone is trying to say, though this is just turning into a bit of a ridiculously repetitive discussion.

So could we please put the posting for the sake of argument to the side?

God damn it, I hate you. I was about to post for everyone to shut the hell up and with the stubborness involved we would all be going around in circles endlessly and pointlessly.

Really nothing matters until Quenty comes along. And yeah, since you're all just as stubborn this isn't going anywhere so the point of discussing has lost its taste. Neither side will give up no matter what points are made so yeah... I think it is time for us all to stfu... kthx.

Also... what happened to the Game Director? Wouldn't we need that in whichever direction we go?

toureffeil
August 18th, 2010, 07:09
Hi guys,

I bumped into this forum when tonight I discovered DK3 would never happen. I've been a hardcore player of DK1 and DK2 years ago and it was a brilliant game, very intelligent. And the touch of humor was genius.

I'm an Art Director in advertising/web and I think you guys put together a very interesting concept and have amazing creative people on board. I really liked many ideas and the art concepts.
I def think you should not give up, but instead find solutions to make this work, even changing the platform.

Reading this thread I was thinking the best way to make this happen was to put together a well done pitch deck and present it to different dev companies like EA, then I saw you actually brought it up.
We are not 100% sure that the DK3 project has been shut down for economical reason. Seeing a huge interest like this might bring the flair back.

Along my exp in pitching projects to brands I would say the best is to look at an investor, either a game dev company or something else.

Did you guys think at doing WFTO for iPad instead?
This might make EA or someone else really interested in developing it since it's the new marketing media platform that really sells.
And would actually be more innovative idea.

I'm writing this since I saw passion in you guys and the exp and living in NY thought me if you believe in something you should bring it to reality.
Keep it up the good work and don't give up.

Best,
G

Necror
August 18th, 2010, 09:36
we can't be commercial
and with all that iCrap (http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/IPoop) you'll never get on iPad.
EA makes shit thats easy to make and makes a lots of money
football manager is a good example,I've seen screens of it, it looks like an amateur made it.
DK is quite unique and hard to make and less people will buy it.

dotted
August 18th, 2010, 11:46
I def think you should not give up, but instead find solutions to make this work, even changing the platform.
Changing the platform wont work without changing the core of the game


Reading this thread I was thinking the best way to make this happen was to put together a well done pitch deck and present it to different dev companies like EA, then I saw you actually brought it up.
We are not 100% sure that the DK3 project has been shut down for economical reason. Seeing a huge interest like this might bring the flair back.

Along my exp in pitching projects to brands I would say the best is to look at an investor, either a game dev company or something else.
Most of us are not professionals, we do this for the love of the game alone. So it is not a goal to actually sell it off.


Did you guys think at doing WFTO for iPad instead?
How do you right click on an iPad? iPad is also incompatible both technologically and legally, and will only limit our audience. Also i wouldn't mind actually being able to play the game myself.

Please note this topic is outdated, WFTO isn't dead anymore and is still in development.

Sire
August 18th, 2010, 12:44
From my perspective, presenting this to other companies will be a complete waste. All companies care about now is money, and they will offer us money that some of us can not refuse, and WFTO will just become another crappy game cranked out for cash than for pleasing the fans.

Should this ever happen, count me out. I will not be part of any group that gives up its core values for money or anything else for that matter.

TSDR: (Too Short, Didn't Read)

Do not change the direction we are heading, its a bad idea. Should WFTO turn back on its fans for the promises of money, then I'm out.

A New Room
August 18th, 2010, 13:26
The title of this thread is pretty misleading...


From my perspective, presenting this to other companies will be a complete waste. All companies care about now is money, and they will offer us money that some of us can not refuse, and WFTO will just become another crappy game cranked out for cash than for pleasing the fans.

Should this ever happen, count me out. I will not be part of any group that gives up its core values for money or anything else for that matter. I would say the main issue with another company would be due to having to make changes a lot of the beloved content and characters so as to avoid copy right issues. Which is something I personally would like to avoid.

Did you guys think at doing WFTO for iPad instead?
This might make EA or someone else really interested in developing it since it's the new marketing media platform that really sells.
And would actually be more innovative idea.
While it would be indeed innovative, it would require a lot of extra research, testing and a lot of feature shaving to get that same amount of control that you get with a mouse and keyboard. But it is a nice Idea ;)


I'm writing this since I saw passion in you guys and the exp and living in NY thought me if you believe in something you should bring it to reality.
Keep it up the good work and don't give up. Thank you for your interest and advise :)

Madkill
September 3rd, 2010, 05:17
So what stops them from coming here? Control of the project? They have code, and keeperklan has the graphics + An Animator (If my memory serves me right).

Merge and have them migrate to here, or at least share their goods here. With their current code, it shouldn't be too difficult to get keeperklans models and textures into their coded-creation in-order to get this entire thing back on track.

All in all, if anyone wanted to go back to the NBKE project (since IKSLM is usually MIA), keeperklan could probably try fishing for a programmer on ModDB.com, if anything catches and what's caught enjoyed their time even after NBKE's completion (since the models and textures that have been worked on were originally remakes for the DKI-Remake, y'know, the project that got everyone interested in the first place) then WFTO might rise and shine and a DKI-Remake would be a brilliant base since you'd have the dungeon part sorted out already. (Why the hell not?)


Edit: Although, since Mef works on KeeperFX, doesn't he have knowledge in C++ etc?