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Thread: Shadow Demon

  
  1. #21

    Default Re: Shadow Demon

    At some point, while I love Natchoguy's idea, I think there's 2 separate concepts of "Shadow Demon" here.

    Possibly, here are the 2 general ideas
    A) Duke Rageweaver - Flanker that can disable / tie-up one unit, eg. Wardancer from Warhammer Fantasy
    B) Natchoguy - Evasive & Stealthy Cloaker, eg. Arbiter from Starcraft 1.
    Dash and adaptation of the Darkness (level 10) may still suit a melee Shadow Demon very nicely

    Assassination-style abilities (ie jump out from shadows, do massive damage) aside, I think Flankers are most interesting if there is a way to get the AI to pick on the Ranged Units rather than the Melee. This makes the "balance" flow something like
    Ranged > Melee
    Melee > Flanker
    Flanker > Ranged

    Practically however, Flankers are usually used as support units for Melee, to be Melee DPS etc support-style roles. The main issue lies with their target acquisition - how do you instruct a Melee Flanker to target a ranged unit far away, that may not even be attacking the Flanker ?

    This can be implemented using an ability with a minimum Range, rather than Maximum. Most Melee style characters use a Dash of sorts, or a Rogue-style Stealth + Teleport.

    I guess my first qualm is all of this constant desire to add demons. What's with that? I'm sure we can get more creative than just tossing "demon" behind a word.

    That said this suggestion seems to be fairly solid, not sure about the demon thing, perhaps less of a 'known' thing. I like the idea of some sort of 'shadow' thing that skirts around the edges of your dungeon in dark places. Rethink the name / model and we might be in business.
    I agree.
    The following suggestion tries to bear the above in mind.

    ==================

    Name : Shadowbeast / Shadowmaw

    Appearance : For most part, a black shadow in the form of a clawed beast, roughly appearance as follows.


    Stats: (bolded parts are changes from Duke Rageweaver's original lineup)
    Health: Medium
    Attack: Above Average
    Defense: Below Average
    Armour: Below Average

    Accuracy: High
    Speed: Medium
    Dexterity: High
    Intelligence: Low-Medium
    Wage: Medium

    Abilities
    - Level 1 - Uses Claws to attack a target.
    - Level 3 - Shadowmeld - remains unseen inside the shadow of an ally. Passive Invisibility when not attacking / using special abilities and in the same tile as a friendly non-Imp Creature. It automatically becomes visible when moving out of the tile.
    - Level 5 - Shadowstep - the caster dashes over next to the enemy while remaining invisible. Invisibility lasts for 3 seconds or until the caster attacks. This has a minimum range, and prioritises targets with Low Armor, Strength and Health (in that order).
    It is used to launch the Level 6 and 8 Abilities, which are very close range.
    - Level 6: Shadow Cell - The caster plunges its arms into the ground and black spines erupt from the ground to ceiling to "capture" in a black cell. Both caster and target may not attack. If the Caster or its target (prisoner) is attacked by anyone else (including Keeper spells), the ability ends. Lasts for 10 seconds.
    (credit : Duke Rageweaver's Grip)
    - Level 8: Shadow Vice - The caster sinks into the ground and black spines erupt from the ground to latch onto the target and does normal damage to him. The prisoner may struggle against the Shadow Vice using his full set of abilities, but targets no one else. The Caster may not be attacked by anyone else, but if the Caster's target (prisoner) is attacked by anyone else (including Keeper spells), the ability ends. It prioritises targets with Low Armor, Strength and Health (in that order). Lasts for 10 seconds.
    (credit : Duke Rageweaver's Whack. unlike Whack, the target may deal full damage to and receives full damage from the Shadowbeast, but the Shadowbeast may not be targeted by others)
    - Level 9: Rebound
    - Level 10 : Darkness - All enemies in the same and surrounding tiles (total of 9 tiles) as the caster have their sight reduced to 2 tiles. This generally means they will only see / attack the Shadowbeast. This is actually an AoE Debuff, and anyone afflicted by Darkness that is attacked by another target will lose the Debuff. Last 10 seconds, Cooldown 2 minutes.
    (credit : Natchoguy's Darkness)

    Notes
    - Darkness is always combined with a fresh recast of Rebound
    - Shadow Cell and Shadow Vice will not be used in the 20 seconds after Darkness is used, unless there are only 2 or less casters nearby who are still afflicted by Darkness (the rest have been restored and can see properly now)
    - Shadow Vice is vulnerable and fully disrupted / ended by Freeze (a full Freeze, not just a movement freeze) from their target
    - Shadow Cell is not used if there are no allies occupying the enemies nearby other than the target (since it will be disrupted by the Shadowbeast geting attacked)
    - Shadow Cell / Vice can be deployed by dropping the Shadowbeast near the unit to be occupied. Depending on the type of unit, the Shadowbeast will effectively "tie up" the unit for 10 seconds (using either Cell / Vice depending on the Armor, Strength, Health etc of the unit)

    The ultimate Shadowbeast Combo should go something like this
    --> Shadowmeld (not targeted by enemies initially)
    --> Shadowstep into group of Ranged units
    --> Cast Rebound & Darkness, causing most of them to damage themselves
    --> if there are still many enemies alive, use Shadow Vice to protect itself from outside damage while picking on one weak unit

    Note that Darkness can be counterproductive against the wrong units, ie Melee units near Ranged units will target the Shadowbeast, and Ranged units using Lightning / Drain will still do full damage as they do not Rebound.
    In such cases, Darkness can be combined with the "drop" of a Melee unit and picking up the Shadowbeast to let someone else "Tank", as the Shadowbeast may not last very long in such situations.

    This is just an idea, much up for debating.
    Last edited by Zyraen; June 9th, 2011 at 06:35. Reason: Natchobaby changed to Natchoguy
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  2. #22
    Bile Demon natchoguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shadow Demon

    Shadow beast is the best name so far.
    Zyraen's idea of the shadowbeast seems like a melee caster with disabling. The idea is unique (plus we need more melee casters) but he needs to be more oriented as a creature. I wouldn't mind if he were a disabler with flanking abilities but I think he has too much abilities.
    Also, the darkness should be as it was originally: 2x2 area, can't move or attack but provides excellent ally cloaking (the only spell which provides ally cloaking). Battles don't spread as far as 3x3 tiles.
    We should have a poll for which concept is more acceptable (add the option to scrap the idea in general).

  3. #23

    Default Re: Shadow Demon

    The idea is unique (plus we need more melee casters) but he needs to be more oriented as a creature.
    Like yourself, I like the idea of Melee casters that still use their Melee as their main form of dealing Damage, and their abilities are pretty much alternative use or enhance that ability. Shadowstep enhances so it gets closer, and Shadowmeld keeps it from drawing fire initially, since its not a Tank type.

    I wouldn't mind if he were a disabler with flanking abilities but I think he has too much abilities.
    Shadow Cell seems slightly more out of place than Shadow Vice, since its actually a "lock-up" ability meant to tie down / stall a stronger enemy unit.
    Shadow Vice fits, since if understood correctly, it actually sets up a 1-1 fight where the target cannot back away from its Melee attacks, PLUS it isolates the Shadowbeast from attacks by other Creatures.
    Regardless, both abilities are Disabling to the Target, both abilities adapted from Duke Rageweaver's list (in fact Shadow Cell is mechanically identical...)

    Also, the darkness should be as it was originally: 2x2 area, can't move or attack but provides excellent ally cloaking (the only spell which provides ally cloaking). Battles don't spread as far as 3x3 tiles.
    About the original Darkness, I think my 2 main issues about it are
    - Creatures being able to be attack and still be cloaked
    - The Caster is a Creature whose ability is generally offensive oriented and damage-based, suddenly being able to Buff Allies in such a unique way. As you said, "more oriented as a Creature" is what I'm aiming for. Friendly Cloaking is something I see more for a Caster-Support unit (eg. Nightveil, Witch) rather than Flanker DPS unit (eg. Shadowbeast)
    - Due to the tight time limit of the original Darkness (3 seconds) its probably most effective when cast near friendly Ranged Units, who can immediately fire with impunity. If the Melee gets cloaked and spends 1.5 seconds to reach the enemy, that's half the duration "wasted".
    If used directly on the Melee frontline where they are already fighting, it will just cause the Enemies to walk past your (invisible) Melee units and attack the Ranged units, which doesn't strike me as a good idea. Yet the Shadowbeast is a frontliner, or even a behind-enemy-lines creature, why would it be in the position to use on friendly Ranged units? The only situation I see is when most of the Melee units are dead / not yet dropped, ie battle is just joined and you have a guardpost line of Ranged units.

    Note that I don't consider it OP. Balance-wise, even if it were of a longer duration (ie 4-6 seconds), its probably Weaker than say, Ice Archer's Ice Barrage which Freezes everyone in its (possibly smaller) radius for that period of time. So it may not really be OP.

    The Darkness proposed above is a Debuff that affects enemies, generally causing them to focus on the Shadowbeast and stop their Ranged Firepower. Combined with Rebound, it makes them kill themselves. It is only my view, just an opinion, but I think its more Oriented, since it blends with Shadowstep to strike behind enemy lines, matches as a more offensive ability on its own as a Debuff, and combined with Rebound causes Mass Damage against Ranged units (who use Reboundable attacks). I perceive Ranged Units as the primary prey of the Shadowbeast and in a normal fight, these tend to Cluster Up.

    That said, there's no harm just scrapping it (and Rebound) completely. Shadow Cell / Vice (free to be renamed) are both useful already.

    Whether its a Mass Cloaking or Mass Sight-Reduction, the affected Area is a technicality whether 2x2 or 3x3 is better. Perhaps I'm too used to DK1, but depending on how many Ranged units are in play and the structure of the corridor I set up, my battles generally take place over 8-10 tiles.

    PS : would be nice to hear from Duke himself this is his creature after all
    Last edited by Zyraen; June 9th, 2011 at 06:41.
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  4. #24
    Bile Demon natchoguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shadow Demon

    About Darkness: creatures that are melee get revealed for 0.5 sec. for every attack. This does not apply to rangers or casters (unless they use a melee move. I intended the move to add a minor strategical component: if an enemy keeper gets attacked from several positions, but doesn't know the amount of enemies on each side, it gets harder to decide which creatures to send to counter.

    About my version of the shadowbeast: my version of the shadowbeast has two different uses: scouting with invisibility and dash; combat as you start off with an all around cloaking, then the dash/ shadowdance combo to distract enemies

  5. #25

    Default Re: Shadow Demon

    Your Darkness
    - it sounds pretty cool, I think. To work the way you suggested, it wouldn't be a Creature or many Creatures since its difficult to coordinate across many areas and it only lasts 3 seconds.
    - perhaps a Keeper Spell called Darkness, ostensibly it causes a cloud of darkness affecting the Creatures viewed from above (ie the Enemy Keeper's POV). This causes all attacking units to be visible to the Keeper only for 0.5 seconds while attacking Melee, and Ranged to be invisible. It affects every all your Creatures on the map, but it does not affect the actual Creatures on the ground. All Enemy Keeper's Creatures will still be able to see the enemies normally. It can be "side-stepped" by Possession, but attacks from multiple fronts will make stop that "cure". It lasts for as long as there's sufficient Mana to a max of 1 (or 2) minutes
    - such an ability would be more useful for Multiplayer

    - I won't get into Scouting since DK1 (not sure about DK2) Scouting is a relatively useless occupation except for certain maps, and even then largely useless because most areas to be scouted are simply unreachable without digging (see my Scouting Suggestions). Dash is more appropriate when used for charging the enemy, not sure about passing through doors which would make it useful both for a Scout and also for Combat.

    Dash/Shadowdance is not a fully distracting ability, since it doesn't "compel" the enemies nearby to attack the Caster.
    To distract Enemy Ranged is something best done either
    1) Before Enemies have acquired any other target. This can be achieved using Dash at very long ranges, but it could also make the Creature vulnerable, being the first unit to be attacked by everyone (something meant for a Tank rather than a Flanker) rather than attacking after a battle is joined.
    2) Appearing / Dashing / Shadowstepping into a bunch of Ranged units and using something that limits their Sight / Range, something like the AoE Darkness Debuff which reduces the creatures' sight to fewer squares, making it likely they see nothing else but the Caster. Of course for this to be viable, there has to be something to keep the creature alive, be it Shadowdance (purely defensive) or Rebound (both defensive and offensive)
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  6. #26
    Dungeon Keeper Duke Ragereaver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shadow Demon

    I welcome the feedback and suggestions about the debate the ''style'' the SD should head into. Generally speaking, a flanker's role is to support close up but, however, I think we should we careful not to make it too versatile at the same time by giving him abilities that can disable enemies and influence the battlefield greatly at the same time], in a way of speaking. Don’t get me wrong, I personally still like parts of the suggestions being given.


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  7. #27
    Bile Demon natchoguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shadow Demon

    The shodowdance is there to make him tanky (in a different way) but not overpowered. The combo is there to make enemy front lines less effective. As for Duke: my version of the shadowbeast is supposed to be versatile but not particularly exceptional (the scouting is pretty overpowered if he has dash and is possessed).

  8. #28
    Dungeon Keeper Duke Ragereaver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shadow Demon

    Quote Originally Posted by natchoguy View Post
    The shodowdance is there to make him tanky (in a different way) but not overpowered. The combo is there to make enemy front lines less effective. As for Duke: my version of the shadowbeast is supposed to be versatile but not particularly exceptional (the scouting is pretty overpowered if he has dash and is possessed).
    My comment was not aimed at you or Zyaen in particular, I was just expressing my concerns about a Creature being too useful combat-wise.


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  9. #29
    Bile Demon natchoguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shadow Demon

    I understand and respect you for understanding that creatures do need limits (I'm not putting ANYONE down). That's the reason I put his stats down and made all his abilities non- offensive so that he alone wasn't much use (he only shines late game with powerful allies).

  10. #30

    Default Re: Shadow Demon

    Hmm, I like this concept and it fits really well with a suggestion of mine, the Assassin's guild, as a stealthy creature. Well since the style is still up in the air I suppose I'll pitch my concept. Has a fear mechanic and is more of an assassin than a melee caster.

    Terror fiend/Terror beast

    stats: Same as Zyraen's suggestion except that wage would be between medium - high instead of medium.

    abilities:

    level 1: melee
    level 2: Fright - raises fear level of target (does not stack with itself or fear traps). short - medium cooldown.
    level 4: Terror blade - deals damage based on fear level of the target. none at unafraid, low at cautious, high at fleeing, lethal at panicked. This is what makes them such good assassins, but won't be as useful in straight combat as fear only overtakes the enemy when you outnumber or out-muscle them, which means you were going to kill them anyway. Mostly used in tandem with Fright in order to panic a fleeing creature, allowing this attack to finish them off. Long cooldown.
    level 7: Shadow step - instantly appears in the target's own shadow. Usable while invisible and will not break invisibility. Medium cooldown.
    level 10: Horrifying Reflection - animates target's own shadow to attack them. Shadow's attacks raise fear slightly instead of dealing damage. Shadow has 25% of targets current health and armor when animated.
    skill: Shadow walk - becomes invisible when in shadows. Breaks if Terror fiend steps out of shadow. Sight will detect. Use of any ability other than Shadow step or Spook will break Shadow walk.
    skill: Spook - raises target's fear level by a small amount but for a long while. Must be hiding in target's own shadow. Target must not be in combat. Medium cooldown. Used only when infiltrating the enemy in order to assassinate it's target with a lethal Terror blade. Takes around 5minutes to raise creature from unafraid to panicked.

    Hates: Horned Reaper, Skeleton, any creature that doesn't feel fear since Terror fiends feed on fear.
    Attracted by: Assassin's Guild (Tentative name).

    in DK2 there were only 3 levels of fear, unafraid, cautious, and fleeing. panicked would be a 4th level but would generally not be seen except when the enemy is not only vastly outnumbered, but cut off from their escape rout, or if the enemy creature is an imp. This is designed to fill the role of the assassin for my room suggestion, the Assassin's guild, that allows 'shadow' wars to be waged. I'm not sure if the lethality of Terror blade is overpowered or underpowered, as it all hinges on how easy or difficult it is to raise an enemy to the panicked level.

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