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Thread: Changes I wanna bring to version 0.38

  
  1. #1
    Dragon DragonsLover's Avatar
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    Default Changes I wanna bring to version 0.38

    Okay, here's what I have done so far for the next version of KeeperFX. This will also include some files from my unofficial patch of the original Dungeon Keeper game. Please tell me if you agree/disagree on these changes. And below are some comments to explain some points. Note that some of these changes are ideas taken from MGR's patch.

    Code:
    Drain creature spell now takes a longer time to reload (same as Lightning)
    Lightning creature spell's Damage reduced to 15
    WOP creature spell's Damage increased to 150
    Wizard has now Persuade as anger job
    Wizard can now see invisible creatures
    Barbarian also requires 1 tile of Barracks to be attracted
    Barbarian's Fear reduced to 17
    Barbarian's Armour spell is now acquired at level 4
    Barbarian has Grenade at level 9
    Barbarian has now Orc as natural enemy
    Archer has Grenade at level 7
    Dwarf has Grenade at level 10
    Dwarf requires 1 tile of Treasury and 1 tile of Workshop to be attracted
    Dwarf has now Troll as natural enemy
    Knight requires 16 tiles of Lair, 36 tiles of Training and 25 tiles of Garden to be attracted
    Knight has now Horny as natural enemy
    Knight now does 120 damage points to boulder
    Knight has now Kill Creatures as anger job
    Avatar can now see invisible creatures
    Avatar has Hailstorm and Meteor spells swapped
    Avatar has now Kill Creatures as anger job
    Tunneller requires 1 tile of Lair to be attracted
    Priestess has Sight at level 6
    Priestess has now Kill Creatures and Persuade as anger jobs
    Giant requires 25 tiles of Lair and 15 tiles of Hatchery to be attracted
    Giant has now 950 of health instead of 650
    Giant's Salary has been increased to 98
    Giant now eats 5 chickens instead of 3 when hungry
    Giant has Grenade at level 7
    Fairy's Dexterity and Defence have been doubled
    Samurai does not see invisible creatures anymore as he already has Sight spell
    Samurai doesn't leave the dungeon anymore when angry
    Horny can't research anymore
    Horny has now Knight as natural enemy
    Horny has Missile moved to level 10 and doesn't have the Armour spell anymore
    Skeleton can now see invisible creatures
    Skeleton's Recovery has been reduced to 1
    Demon Spawn has Armour spell at level 10
    Fly's Dexterity and Defence have been tripled
    Beetle's Armour has been doubled
    Hellhound has Rebound at level 7 and Heal at level 9 (Fireball spell removed at level 8)
    Hellhound now does 30 damage points to boulder
    Hellhound has now Kill Creatures as anger job
    Ghost's Fear has been reduced to 0
    Ghost's Defence has been increased by 2/3 of his original value
    Ghost has now Freeze at level 7 and Hailstorm at level 10
    Tentacle's Recovery has been increased to 2
    Tentacle doesn't leave the dungeon anymore when angry
    Imp isn't humanoid anymore
    Orc has now Barbarian as natural enemy
    Troll has now Dwarf as natural enemy
    
    Poison Gas trap has now 7 shots
    Must Obey spell's price is now 50 instead of 25
    Disease spell's Transfer Percentage reduced to 2
    Disease spell's Lose Percentage Health reduced to 2
    SOE spell has this price now :
    100 - 125 - 150 - 175 - 200 - 225 - 250 - 275 - 300
    Heal spell has this power now :
    80 - 180 - 280 - 380 - 480 - 580 - 680 - 780 - 980
    Lightning spell has this power now :
    3 - 4 - 6 - 8 - 10 - 13 - 16 - 20 - 25
    Disease spell has this power now :
    300 - 350 - 400 - 450 - 500 - 550 - 600 - 650 - 700
    Chicken spell has this power now :
    240 - 280 - 320 - 360 - 400 - 440 - 480 - 520 - 800
    Steel door's Manufacture Required increased to 30000
    Boulder trap's Manufacture Required increased to 30000
    Lightning trap's Manufacture Required increased to 24000
    Word of Power trap's Manufacture Required increased to 22000
    
    New sacrifices replacing existing KeeperFX recipes:
    TROLL + TROLL = ORC
    FLY + BUG = TROLL
    BUG + DEMONSPAWN = TENTACLE
    FLY + DEMONSPAWN = HELL_HOUND
    FLY + SORCEROR = HERO FAIRY
    BUG + TROLL = HERO ARCHER
    SKELETON + SKELETON = SPEED ALL
    DARK_MISTRESS + DARK_MISTRESS = INVISIBILITY ALL
    DRAGON + DRAGON = HEAL ALL
    SORCEROR + SORCEROR = REBOUND ALL
    ORC + ORC = ARMOUR ALL
    HELL_HOUND = FLY ALL
    VAMPIRE + BUG = FREEZE ALL
    VAMPIRE + SPIDER = SLOW ALL
    
    Floating Spirit can't be turned to chicken
    Ghost can't be turned to chicken
    Imp can't be turned to chicken (computer players won't do so anymore)
    Knight can't be turned to chicken
    Skeleton can't be turned to chicken
    Barbarian PartnerTraining increased to 20
    DemonSpawn PartnerTraining increased to 90
    Giant PartnerTraining increased to 30
    
    Ancient Keeper and Post Ancient Keeper campaigns have been improved
    Lightning creature spell's Damage reduced to 15
    I have slightly reduced the damage since Lightning spell can do multiple hits on motionless or slow targets.

    Giant has now 950 of health instead of 650
    I really found strange that Giant has lower health than the Barbarian which has 700. I wanted the Giant to be a bit like a Bile Demon : a tough creature.

    Fairy's Dexterity and Defence have been doubled
    Since the Fairy is slim and can fly, I considered rather normal for her to be hard to hit, but also, to allow her to hit more often.

    Skeleton's Recovery has been reduced to 1
    A creature made of bones should take a whiiiiile to heal himself. By the way, about my older post asking if the Skeleton should be nerfed, I decided to leave him the way he is. I tested with a Missile spell and it's just ridiculous when they're facing against a hero with Rebound. Depending on the amount of Skeletons you get, you could lose so much of them so that you could create a Vampire if you had the Graveyard. I also tested without Missile or Lightning spell but again, it's ridiculous to have tons of Skeletons "dancing" around the combat field, with the hero having the possibility to actually kill one of them, bringing one from the "dancers" coming for the battle. Finally, Lightning was just the perfect spell.

    Fly's Dexterity and Defence have been tripled
    Same thing as the Fairy above.

    Ghost's Defence has been increased by 2/3 of his original value
    Since the Ghost is made of... whatever it is, then I consider logical that he could become difficult to hit.

    Must Obey spell's price is now 50 instead of 25
    This is the very acceptable limit. Higher price costs too much when, for example, you only have one face of Gem block available.

    Disease spell's Transfer Percentage reduced to 2
    Disease spell's Lose Percentage Health reduced to 2
    Okay... Mefisto? You have to TRUST ME about these values. They may seem quite low, but they're still quite deadly. Here, I'm pretty sure that there's a check when a creature is colliding with another creature at every game turn. If a dragon crosses another dragon for example, then maybe 8 game turns have passed while they were crossing into each other. 8 game turns x 2% percent chance already gives 16% which is 1 chance on 6 to get diseased. I didn't look at the code to confirm, this is just my guess. And about the percentage of health lost, I wanted it to be like hunger, which is 50 health points, but here, it's different since it's based on percentage. I tried with a higher value, but the spell is just still too much deadly. At 2%, the creature loses 1/50 of his health which is not that bad. If you take a Bile Demon at level 1, it equals to 24 which is half the hunger, but once level 10, it's twice the hunger (99). Here, I want the Disease spell to be somewhat like the hunger, damaging the creature quite a bit, but not to death. I guess I'm not wrong with the calculations above. Tell me if I am.

    I have also brought some modifications to the original campaign levels and Deeper Dungeons levels.

    Now I'm up for your comments.
    I like dragons! They're the center of my life! I'll never forget them...



  2. #2
    Bile Demon natchoguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Changes I wanna bring to version 0.38

    Now playing has become much more interesting. Most of the changes seem fair and realistic. The attracting heroes part, is there really a hero dungeon alternative? (because of hero attracting and a room called "garden"). It all seems right, I have nothing against your choices although I do have one request: have a menu for "unlocked" sacrifices (ones you've discovered)

  3. #3
    Dungeon Keeper Duke Ragereaver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Changes I wanna bring to version 0.38

    Quote Originally Posted by natchoguy View Post
    The attracting heroes part, is there really a hero dungeon alternative? (because of hero attracting and a room called "garden").
    Garden is just the script name for the Hacthery.

    As for the changes... well... I'm always a bit reluctant to bring these kind of changes, but we will see if they are truely balanced.


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  4. #4

    Default Re: Changes I wanna bring to version 0.38

    DL, I noticed you wanted to change it so the barbarian and archer learn can grenade, but is it yet possible that the spell could be made usable outside possession? Or if could would it just wreck havoc in a battle? On one hand I get the impression it was only meant to be used in possession, but still, it would be really interesting to see active outside.

  5. #5
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Changes I wanna bring to version 0.38

    Quote Originally Posted by Mistressmaster View Post
    DL, I noticed you wanted to change it so the barbarian and archer learn can grenade, but is it yet possible that the spell could be made usable outside possession? Or if could would it just wreck havoc in a battle? On one hand I get the impression it was only meant to be used in possession, but still, it would be really interesting to see active outside.
    Grenade cannot be used outside of Possession. The AI cannot handle it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke Ragereaver View Post
    As for the changes... well... I'm always a bit reluctant to bring these kind of changes, but we will see if they are truely balanced.
    It is a matter of testing and opinions and such. I don't trust a good amount of the information, or at least the majority of the bits taken from my patch. The reason is because the information DL would have recieved is the data I let him see when asking him about his opinion. That information is extremely outdated, as well as untested. (Most of it) At the time, I was meant to test it, but I thought taking it to DL would save some time. It did as he talked me out of some crazy things, but at the same time, some things still required testing. The data DL was given is quite different from my current data, and for a good reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Note that some of these changes are ideas taken from MGR's patch.
    Would have been nice to know so I could provide you with new information that I've aqquired through testing as well as new thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Drain creature spell now takes a longer time to reload (same as Lightning)
    How long? I don't remember what I said before as it has been a long time since.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Lightning creature spell's Damage reduced to 15
    The main reason why Lightning and Drain were a problem was due to the Dark Mistress. She made Lightning and Drain seem very overpowered, but the problem was because she had Speed, and nothing else. Giving Speed to the Fairy wouldn't be as dangerous because she has many other spells so she'd be constantly halted to cast a new spell and thus anybody could reach her. But the Dark Mistress outruns everyone.

    Lightning should be reduced a tad, but not too much. Perhaps another idea I thought of is to decrease the recharge time and attack power. That way, it does the same amount of damage but gives Lightning the weakness of slowing down the attacker so they can't easily outrun everyone all the time. (In other words, they have to cast the spell more often in order to do the same amount of damage, and everytime they cast they stop in order to do the attacking animation)

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    WOP creature spell's Damage increased to 150
    Way too high. Keep it at 80, I've tested that value and it works fine. It takes half the health of a Level 1 Vampire. 150 is nearly double, it'll be too strong.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Wizard has now Persuade as anger job
    Wizard can now see invisible creatures
    I get the Persuade part as the Warlock has that, but what about the ability to see Invisible Creatures? I know the Warlock can do it, but he required Sight. The Wizard doesn't have room for that, and making him see invisible makes him more valuable. Problem is that he's already too valuable.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Barbarian also requires 1 tile of Barracks to be attracted
    Barbarian's Fear reduced to 17
    Barbarian's Armour spell is now acquired at level 4
    Barbarian has Grenade at level 9
    Barbarian has now Orc as natural enemy
    I think that Heroes should have no attraction data. I know I had it like that back then, but I removed it simply because it causes certain problems. If I recall, Lquiz had a campaign that used Script Commands for attracting. That interferes with that, as well as other campaigns that may use that.

    As for Grenade... I don't know. I only gave it to the Archer and Dwarf because they were manufacturers, like the Orc, Bile Demon, and Troll who all had Grenade. Barbarian isn't a manufacturer.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Archer has Grenade at level 7
    I doubt Mefisto will ever be able to get AI to use Grenade properly due to the many complications it has. Then again, I may be underestimating Mefisto's abilities. However, it doesn't change the fact that there are more important things to focus on, such as how creatures interact with invisible creatures attacking them.

    What I'm trying to say is, Grenade will remain a Possession only spell for a long time, if not forever. As long as it stays that way, I've gotten no complain about this.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Dwarf has Grenade at level 10
    Dwarf requires 1 tile of Treasury and 1 tile of Workshop to be attracted
    Dwarf has now Troll as natural enemy
    Can you remind me if I originally made Dwarves and Trolls natural enemies? I can't remember, but I definately think it is better than the Troll/Giant idea, (For those who don't know about it, I read something about that in a DK2 guide on how Trolls were afraid of Giants) mainly because Dwarves are the best manufacturers on the Hero Side as are Trolls for the Evil Side. Competetion :P

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Knight requires 16 tiles of Lair, 36 tiles of Training and 25 tiles of Garden to be attracted
    Knight has now Horny as natural enemy
    Knight now does 120 damage points to boulder
    Knight has now Kill Creatures as anger job
    I don't get the logic of the Lair or Hatchary requirements, but the Horned Reaper Lair Enemy and Kill Creatures Anger Job most definately make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Avatar can now see invisible creatures
    Avatar has Hailstorm and Meteor spells swapped
    Avatar has now Kill Creatures as anger job
    Avatar seeing invisible was definately one of my better ideas. I wonder if you remember some of the crazy ideas I had with the Avatar XD

    As for the Hailstorm/Meteor, I'm not sure. Does your Avatar have Rebound? Without Rebound, Hailstorm and Meteor become a bit of a liability to him. Hailstorm can be very dangerous though with Melee, as the Monk demonstrated. Though if the enemy has Rebound, it really weakens him. The Avatar should be without weakness, like a Super Wizard. Except with Melee power too. :P

    I also noticed that due to the Rebound liability thing, he actually can't kill a Knight at Level 10. He reflects his Freeze back at the Avatar. And if you manage to time it correctly, you can catch the Fairy and the Avatar in a loop in which the Fairy can kill the Avatar, one on one.

    Also, to note, you should make the Avatar lair enemies with the Horned Reaper too. You need only one to be Lair Enemies with the other in order for them to fight against each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Tunneller requires 1 tile of Lair to be attracted
    Whether you want Heroes to have attraction data or not, I think the Tunneller should have none. As it should be obvious to you, once your Lair is full, you can't attract anyone else. If you have no rooms at all, usually only a single lonely Fly comes into your dungeon. I think the Tunneller, being that he is obviously the weakest of all Heroes, should also be the first to come by as a lonely Fly. But then again, that is merely my idea/opinion about it. This doesn't truly matter as much.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Priestess has Sight at level 6
    Priestess has now Kill Creatures and Persuade as anger jobs
    I'm not quite sure I understand the anger jobs. I don't see them to be truly fitting for her. Care to explain your reasoning?

    As for the Sight, I think it is fine. As long as the Monk can equally see invisible. (via Sight spell or natural ability. The latter seems more fitting as for the former, the spell can't be available for some time)

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Giant requires 25 tiles of Lair and 15 tiles of Hatchery to be attracted
    Giant has now 950 of health instead of 650
    Giant's Salary has been increased to 98
    Giant now eats 5 chickens instead of 3 when hungry
    Giant has Grenade at level 7
    The Health and Grenade are definately wrong. The health is WAY too high. I hope you realize this, but now you've made the Giant into a complete powerhouse. 950 is the health of the Knight, and 80 is his Strength. The Giant has a Strength of 100, and now you're giving him Health equal to the Knight. Giants appear very often, this will very well effect many campaigns and stand alone levels. Did you even test this?

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    I really found strange that Giant has lower health than the Barbarian which has 700. I wanted the Giant to be a bit like a Bile Demon : a tough creature.
    Hardly an excuse. Barbarians are supposed to be kind of like blockers, Giants aren't especially designed to be tanks like Bile Demons. They're supposed to be used to eliminate high health creatures. Example is that they're very good against Dragons one-on-one, because Dragons don't deal high damage.

    Bile Demons don't deal the crazy damage that Giants deal. The Bile Demon/Giant counterpart idea is made by DK2, it wasn't around in DK1 as far as I know. It can be proven because, by default in terms of battle data, Giants and Bile Demons are very far apart. Giants also can't manufacture very well, something DK2 thought out as well.

    As for Grenade... I really have no idea why you gave him this. I suppose it is the whole manufacturing thing and pairing them up with Bile Demons... but Giants aren't manufacturers in DK1.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Fairy's Dexterity and Defence have been doubled
    I agree with your logic behind this.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Samurai does not see invisible creatures anymore as he already has Sight spell
    Samurai doesn't leave the dungeon anymore when angry
    I kind of preferred the Samurai being able to see naturally. I feel slightly resentful for you taking away the natural ability, but mainly because your reasoning behind it. You simply wanted more creatures to have that spell, whether or not it is fitting for that Creature.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Fine then, I'll give that spell to the Ghost instead.
    "It" would be referring to Hailstorm. This quote is from this thread, when we went off topic and I had to reason with DL about the Vampire obtaining Hailstorm. Ghosts shouldn't have a spell like that, but it looks more to me that you gave it to him in order to spread the Spell around. However, I will get more into that when discussing the Ghost.

    Back to the main point, if you do not want to remove the Sight spell in favor of returning the Samurai's natural ability, why not lower the level it is recieved? Say, 4?

    Also, do you think the Samurai should have a lower Training Rate? He has a Training Rate of 4, and Speed at Level 7. Do the math, he trains faster than a Skeleton. And he isn't exactly weak like one either.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Horny can't research anymore
    Horny has now Knight as natural enemy
    Horny has Missile moved to level 10 and doesn't have the Armour spell anymore
    I definately see the logic behind the Horned Reaper not being able to read?

    As for the Armor removal... ****ing finally. The Horned Reaper has a high enough armor as it is. I don't know about Missile though... it just doesn't look right. I've seen him fighting with that, it just doesn't look right. He shouldn't stop until he reaches an enemy. I know that you did that for Slow, but perhaps Slow isn't neccessary. The Horned Reaper, combined with Speed especially, is the fastest thing there is in the whole game. He also is the second best Melee fighter. Slow isn't needed in any way.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Skeleton can now see invisible creatures
    Skeleton's Recovery has been reduced to 1
    Glad to see the Skeleton's natural sight made it in. And I agree with you there in reducing the recovery rate. It may even be the perfect balancing they need. Skeletons are easily injured, so a long recovery would be an effective drawback for them without actually weakening their fighting abilities.

    By the way, have you tested Drain for Skeletons? I'm not too sure about it actually... still testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Demon Spawn has Armour spell at level 10
    Was this from my patch as well? I can't remember.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Fly's Dexterity and Defence have been tripled
    Beetle's Armour has been doubled
    Agreed with both, but what about Protect for the Beetle? That's what I did.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Hellhound has Rebound at level 7 and Heal at level 9 (Fireball spell removed at level 8)
    Hellhound now does 30 damage points to boulder
    Hellhound has now Kill Creatures as anger job
    What. The. Hell? Rebound and Heal for a Hell Hound? Where's the logic for that? Fireball made more sense... I hope you're not trying to spread Rebound around the Evil Side again?

    For the Kill Creatures Anger Job, I see the logic there. Little doggy gettin rabies and going out of control. Time for the Imp to get the gun.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Ghost's Fear has been reduced to 0
    Ghost's Defence has been increased by 2/3 of his original value
    Ghost has now Freeze at level 7 and Hailstorm at level 10
    I agree with everything until I see Freeze and Hailstorm. I don't know if they were in my patch back then, but they aren't there now. Hailstorm I am sure wasn't there. Teleport probably is more fitting. Ghost shouldn't deal high damage. They, like Thieves, are stealth creatures.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Tentacle's Recovery has been increased to 2
    Tentacle doesn't leave the dungeon anymore when angry
    I agree with both those changes. Tentacle hardly gets angry ever, he sounds kinda peaceful in that sense or perhaps just loyal. So perhaps he wouldn't leave the Dungeon like that. And for the Tentacle's recovery, he's a pretty slow healer so it wouldn't hurt to speed him up a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Imp isn't humanoid anymore
    Why? Does that mean Dwarves and Giants be made non-humanoid?

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Orc has now Barbarian as natural enemy
    Troll has now Dwarf as natural enemy
    My only thing to say about this is... why is the Troll last? :P I'm just curious because you listed the changes via Creature Order, as did I. So Troll should be right after Skeleton. :P

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Poison Gas trap has now 7 shots
    Must Obey spell's price is now 50 instead of 25
    Agreed. I'm curious if 50 is the best value, however. I've been testing 100, as you know. Though I've forgotten the results of that testing so it really is hard to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Disease spell's Transfer Percentage reduced to 2
    Disease spell's Lose Percentage Health reduced to 2
    2 may be too low for the Transfer Rate. Try 5, 6, or 7. I've tried chances that low and the results I recall weren't very good, it made the spell too useless. Remember this, Dragons are the slowest creatures in the whole game. They have a speed of 32. Even Bile Demons are faster. Your example of 2 Dragons is really poor, it makes faster creatures really invulnerable to the spell.

    Also, you didn't change the frequency of when health is lost, it seems. You've greatly weakened the spell. The damage is now 2%, instead of the original 10%. And with those percentage chances... it truly makes the spell worthless. Do remember that while I decreased the damage, I also increased the frequency of when the damage was dealt. I decreased the health lost from 10% to 1%, but also made the frequency 10 times higher.

    In other words, there barely was a difference with my changes. It only makes a difference when in certain circumstances.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    SOE spell has this price now :
    100 - 125 - 150 - 175 - 200 - 225 - 250 - 275 - 300
    I agree with this. That spell is too cheap and too useful.

    PS: Don't increase the effect... I tried it once, and it produced a glitch in which Must Obey activated itself. I know you won't, just something interesting to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Heal spell has this power now :
    80 - 180 - 280 - 380 - 480 - 580 - 680 - 780 - 980
    Why increase it? Did you find it to be too weak? I can't say much about those stats as I've never played around with the Heal Spell before. It would require some testing.

    Don't think too much of my judgement here as it is without testing to back me up as the other statements are, but I think those values may be a bit high. The Level 9 value is nearly double the default. Perhaps instead of going near double, you go barely beyond 150%?

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Lightning spell has this power now :
    3 - 4 - 6 - 8 - 10 - 13 - 16 - 20 - 25
    I suppose those stats are good, I used lower for the final value though.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Disease spell has this power now :
    300 - 350 - 400 - 450 - 500 - 550 - 600 - 650 - 700
    I should note that this is decreased from the original value. Yes, the spell no longer lasts as long on the original casting, is much more difficult to pass around to other creatures, and deals less damage... You truly have nerfed Disease. I really have nothing else to say about the Disease Spell.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Chicken spell has this power now :
    240 - 280 - 320 - 360 - 400 - 440 - 480 - 520 - 800
    I agree with this. The Chicken Spell could really be abused. The time I had originally set up was crazy short, and the original time was too long. Those values seem just right, actually.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Steel door's Manufacture Required increased to 30000
    Boulder trap's Manufacture Required increased to 30000
    Lightning trap's Manufacture Required increased to 24000
    Word of Power trap's Manufacture Required increased to 22000
    It would have been nice for you to note the original values as well. Even so, I do agree with these changes mostly.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    New sacrifices replacing existing KeeperFX recipes:
    TROLL + TROLL = ORC
    FLY + BUG = TROLL
    BUG + DEMONSPAWN = TENTACLE
    FLY + DEMONSPAWN = HELL_HOUND
    FLY + SORCEROR = HERO FAIRY
    BUG + TROLL = HERO ARCHER
    SKELETON + SKELETON = SPEED ALL
    DARK_MISTRESS + DARK_MISTRESS = INVISIBILITY ALL
    DRAGON + DRAGON = HEAL ALL
    SORCEROR + SORCEROR = REBOUND ALL
    ORC + ORC = ARMOUR ALL
    HELL_HOUND = FLY ALL
    VAMPIRE + BUG = FREEZE ALL
    VAMPIRE + SPIDER = SLOW ALL
    I don't know what to say about some of them. A good amount of them sound kind of unoriginal/simple. Troll + Troll, Warlock + Warlock, etc. That kind of thing. I kind of like the FX Sacrifices already there.

    Oh and for the Skeleton + Skeleton, don't the gods hate Undead? I don't get the Hero Fairy or Archer either. Those aren't neccessarily bad sacrifices.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Floating Spirit can't be turned to chicken
    Ghost can't be turned to chicken
    Imp can't be turned to chicken (computer players won't do so anymore)
    Knight can't be turned to chicken
    Skeleton can't be turned to chicken
    I agree with all of these except for the Skeleton... why? Is it because he's bones and there can't be a "Bone Skeleton"? (Would be awesome though...)

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Barbarian PartnerTraining increased to 20
    DemonSpawn PartnerTraining increased to 90
    Giant PartnerTraining increased to 30
    Should they really be "PartnerTraining"? What's your reason?

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Ancient Keeper and Post Ancient Keeper campaigns have been improved
    Tell me... what are these "improvements"? And more importantly, why did you change them at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    I have also brought some modifications to the original campaign levels and Deeper Dungeons levels.
    No one can judge those changes if we know not what they are. Do tell us about said changes with a bit more detail.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Now I'm up for your comments.
    Such a long post. Kinda reminds me of our long PMs about the patch, eh? Took a few hours to write this (mostly because my hands are cold stiff)

    I noticed you said nothing about the "Dexterity Fix". I had mentioned to you that you needed to lower Defense AND Dexterity, otherwise you end up having actual drastic changes with enemies dodging more often than they should. Did you already do that or no?

    Also, is there any way you can have your patch handed out separately? I kinda don't like how anyone who wants to use FX are forced to use your patch. Patches should be applied optionally. To restore the original values, it takes a lot of work. It is just a suggestion as I noticed I always prefer playing with either the original or my own patch. (only to test)

    It is a lot of work to restore everything from all these changes and such. It would be quite nice for this patch to remain true to its name.

    I apologize on sounding a bit overly harsh in some areas. However, some of the things just go too far in the wrong way.
    Last edited by Metal Gear Rex; December 9th, 2010 at 22:57.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Changes I wanna bring to version 0.38

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Ancient Keeper and Post Ancient Keeper campaigns have been improved
    Tell me... what are these "improvements"? And more importantly, why did you change them at all?
    second that, the campaign work, when it was designed we built it to take advantadge of developer oversights/ bugs. We meant the levels to be particularly difficult.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    I have also brought some modifications to the original campaign levels and Deeper Dungeons levels.
    No one can judge those changes if we know not what they are. Do tell us about said changes with a bit more detail.
    If there additional fixes to the level scripts (including placement of action points), then i don't see a problem, (particularly fixes to the customise knight armour values on some levels)
    however other map changes probable should go into a seperate patch rather than the main release?



    Also, is there any way you can have your patch handed out separately? I kinda don't like how anyone who wants to use FX are forced to use your patch. Patches should be applied optionally. To restore the original values, it takes a lot of work. It is just a suggestion as I noticed I always prefer playing with either the original or my own patch. (only to test)

    It is a lot of work to restore everything from all these changes and such. It would be quite nice for this patch to remain true to its name.
    Agree with this completely.
    As all of these changes are in the creature data, would it be possible to create a seperate campaign file/directory to allow both the be present?
    The level/scripting/ text fixes should stay.


    the imp should remain a humanoid,
    not so sure about either of the natural enemy additions, the giant/barbarian dont really need grenade( doesnt really fit )
    other than those most of the changes seem reasonable

  7. #7
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Changes I wanna bring to version 0.38

    Quote Originally Posted by edorien View Post
    If there additional fixes to the level scripts (including placement of action points), then i don't see a problem, (particularly fixes to the customise knight armour values on some levels)
    however other map changes probable should go into a seperate patch rather than the main release?
    What DL does is only Fixes. However, they are as how he interrpruts them, and therefore they may not be perfect. Well at least not all of them.

    One example of something that seems right is that the Neutral Level 6 Barbarian in Tickle has been made a Hero. In the Adkited Editor, which is probably identical to how Bullfrog made their levels, (me thinks) you may make a mistake like that on who "owns" a Creature.

    However, something that feels out of place are the Horned Reapers in Netzcaro. Towards the East of Netzcaro, there is a Prison in which has 4 Level 4 Hero Horned Reapers. They are placed inside the Prison, and because of that, they begin the level as being captured. They eventually will become Skeletons.

    DL made them Neutral, which to me is wrong. I think the Horned Reapers are supposed to guard the Prison, being that this is a Hero Map and that basically gives you a great advantage. But finding 4 neutral Horned Reapers AND a Prison just makes the level way too easy. The Horned Reapers should remain Heroes, and need to be placed on a different tile instead of the Prison. It was just a bad placement on Bullfrog's part.

    However, this may not neccessarily be true. I'm just saying that this is how I interpreted Bullfrog's original intentions on that level. But just like how I might not be right, it also means DL could be in the wrong. It is all a matter of opinion.

    There are some things, however, that really are level fixing without a doubt. In Kari-Mar, to the north, you'll find a Gem Rock and a Workshop. When you claim the Workshop, you are supposed to be able to gain the power to build Workshops. (you don't have this power naturally) There's an error in the script, however, that prevents it.

    Anyways... back to the point... due to some real drastic changes in some of the Levels, (like adding a Scavanger Room in Netzcaro) I am beginning to think DL's versions of the original campaign should be a separate campaign as the original Dungeon Keeper campaign loses its name as being the "original".

    Quote Originally Posted by edorien View Post
    Agree with this completely.
    As all of these changes are in the creature data, would it be possible to create a seperate campaign file/directory to allow both the be present?
    The level/scripting/ text fixes should stay.
    Not all changes are in Creature Data. FX has separated the data that the original "creature.txt" file contained into several files for organization. Applying a patch is real easy though. All you really need to do is copy the folders and paste them into the FX Folder.

    Quote Originally Posted by edorien View Post
    the imp should remain a humanoid,
    not so sure about either of the natural enemy additions, the giant/barbarian dont really need grenade( doesnt really fit )
    other than those most of the changes seem reasonable
    Indeed, most of the changes seem likely to work. Some look like they should recieve more testing. Others are more like an obvious "no".
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Changes I wanna bring to version 0.38

    Not all changes are in Creature Data
    I'm aware of that. I think were both arguing for something similar.
    Dragonlovers patch to be seperate, which would require the data files to be associated with each campaign (including the files in the fxdata folder

    although personally, i'd keep some of the changes in both the "orignial" and patched version
    (the dexerity fix/ secret level/ scripting errors) while the rest go in the patched campaign, analogous to what the co8 team do for temple of elemental evil, or wesp for vampire bloodlines


    back to the changes.
    giving horny a single natural enemy is a bad idea (none, or everything may be better)
    they loose anger while fighting
    so on any level you can capture a knight you have another way to keep him happy.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Changes I wanna bring to version 0.38

    Are these changes to the Original Dungeon Keeper Campaign?? I think original values musn't be changed

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Changes I wanna bring to version 0.38

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    How long? I don't remember what I said before as it has been a long time since.
    Look between the parentheses : "same as Lightning".

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Lightning should be reduced a tad, but not too much. Perhaps another idea I thought of is to decrease the recharge time and attack power. That way, it does the same amount of damage but gives Lightning the weakness of slowing down the attacker so they can't easily outrun everyone all the time. (In other words, they have to cast the spell more often in order to do the same amount of damage, and everytime they cast they stop in order to do the attacking animation)
    Sounds a good idea to me. Will need to do more tests about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Way too high. Keep it at 80, I've tested that value and it works fine. It takes half the health of a Level 1 Vampire. 150 is nearly double, it'll be too strong.
    Level 1 creatures are dead anyway when they're against level 10 creatures (remember that WOP spell is a level 10 spell). But if it's too high and 80 looks too low for me, maybe we could set it between both values like, say: 120?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    I get the Persuade part as the Warlock has that, but what about the ability to see Invisible Creatures? I know the Warlock can do it, but he required Sight. The Wizard doesn't have room for that, and making him see invisible makes him more valuable. Problem is that he's already too valuable.
    I thought it'd sound a good idea for a spellcaster to have the ability to see invisible. Since the Wizard didn't have place for the "Sight" spell, I decided to give it the natural ability since he's "a bit" better than the Warlock. There's not so many creatures that can detect invisible creatures :
    (4 creatures + 1 hero)
    -
    -
    -
    -
    -
    And with my patch:
    (2 creatures + 3 heroes)
    -
    -
    -
    -
    -
    Would it be that troublesome to allow the Wizard to see invisible creatures for a ratio of 6 creatures VS 4 heroes?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    I think that Heroes should have no attraction data. I know I had it like that back then, but I removed it simply because it causes certain problems. If I recall, Lquiz had a campaign that used Script Commands for attracting. That interferes with that, as well as other campaigns that may use that.
    Well... my changes are only for the "basis" data of the game. If people wanna remove the attraction data for heroes, then he can simply remove them through the creatures config files of their campaign. I don't see where's the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    As for Grenade... I don't know. I only gave it to the Archer and Dwarf because they were manufacturers, like the Orc, Bile Demon, and Troll who all had Grenade. Barbarian isn't a manufacturer.
    And it's written in the sky that "Manufacturer = Grenade"?
    Afaik, the Orc isn't a manufacturer. He DOES have a very good skill in manufacture, that's true, but he's not a pure manufacturer. I always see the Orc as a true fighter. And what do you do with the Dragon? He owns that spell even without my patch... and he's not a very good manufacturer as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    I doubt Mefisto will ever be able to get AI to use Grenade properly due to the many complications it has.
    Which complications?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Can you remind me if I originally made Dwarves and Trolls natural enemies?
    I don't think so. It's my own idea. Since Dwarves work in mountain caves and mine diamonds and gems, and trolls also live in mountain caves, I see them to be natural enemies, especially when they're both great manufacturers with almost the same creatures data. Anyway, there's a very poor chance to have Dwarves and Trolls in the same dungeon so, is it really a big problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Avatar seeing invisible was definately one of my better ideas. I wonder if you remember some of the crazy ideas I had with the Avatar XD
    Oh god, of course I remember, silly you!

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    As for the Hailstorm/Meteor, I'm not sure. Does your Avatar have Rebound?
    He doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Though if the enemy has Rebound, it really weakens him. The Avatar should be without weakness, like a Super Wizard. Except with Melee power too. :P
    Yes, it kinda does make sense. Wanna me to remove the "Hailstorm" and "Meteor" spells then?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Also, to note, you should make the Avatar lair enemies with the Horned Reaper too. You need only one to be Lair Enemies with the other in order for them to fight against each other.
    I don't know if it's possible. Remember that both creatures have a hated link between each other:
    Mistress' natural enemy is Samurai and Samurai's natural enemy is Mistress. I have never tried when it's "one-way". Will see. But the chance to have an Avatar in your army is lower than having Knights, which can easily be done by training Thieves and this is the reason why I made the link between the Horned Reaper and the Knight and not the Avatar.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Whether you want Heroes to have attraction data or not, I think the Tunneller should have none. As it should be obvious to you, once your Lair is full, you can't attract anyone else. If you have no rooms at all, usually only a single lonely Fly comes into your dungeon. I think the Tunneller, being that he is obviously the weakest of all Heroes, should also be the first to come by as a lonely Fly. But then again, that is merely my idea/opinion about it. This doesn't truly matter as much.
    Fine then, I'd change that.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    I'm not quite sure I understand the anger jobs. I don't see them to be truly fitting for her. Care to explain your reasoning?
    Err... same as Vampire? Okay okay, I'm gonna change this.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    The Health and Grenade are definately wrong. The health is WAY too high. I hope you realize this, but now you've made the Giant into a complete powerhouse. 950 is the health of the Knight, and 80 is his Strength. The Giant has a Strength of 100, and now you're giving him Health equal to the Knight. Giants appear very often, this will very well effect many campaigns and stand alone levels. Did you even test this?

    Hardly an excuse. Barbarians are supposed to be kind of like blockers, Giants aren't especially designed to be tanks like Bile Demons. They're supposed to be used to eliminate high health creatures. Example is that they're very good against Dragons one-on-one, because Dragons don't deal high damage.

    Bile Demons don't deal the crazy damage that Giants deal. The Bile Demon/Giant counterpart idea is made by DK2, it wasn't around in DK1 as far as I know. It can be proven because, by default in terms of battle data, Giants and Bile Demons are very far apart. Giants also can't manufacture very well, something DK2 thought out as well.

    As for Grenade... I really have no idea why you gave him this. I suppose it is the whole manufacturing thing and pairing them up with Bile Demons... but Giants aren't manufacturers in DK1.
    *Sigh* Always complaining.
    Yes, I tested and it looked fine. Now what, I have made the Giant into a powerhouse? That's exactly not the role of a Giant? Sure, he has the same health of the Knight and have a slightly higher strength, but:
    - He's slower.
    - Has a lower dexterity.
    - Has a lower armour.
    - And most importantly, can't heal.
    This causes him to be a perfect target and gets a load of projectiles in his face!
    And look at the Bile Demon : 1200 health! OMG! Okay, sure, the BD has a lower dexterity so, maybe I could do the same here with the Giant, reduce his Dexterity to... say, 50 so that he won't be able to hit often?
    I simply wanted the Giant to tough much longer in battles. I mean, come on, a hero that uses two spaces in the lair like the BD and which has a lower health than the Barbarian. That's not logical to me. 950 health looks perfect for a Giant : a taller tough guy. Where's the f***ing problem?

    As for Grenade, read my answer about the Barbarian above.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Back to the main point, if you do not want to remove the Sight spell in favor of returning the Samurai's natural ability, why not lower the level it is recieved? Say, 4?

    Also, do you think the Samurai should have a lower Training Rate? He has a Training Rate of 4, and Speed at Level 7. Do the math, he trains faster than a Skeleton. And he isn't exactly weak like one either.
    Okay, I'm gonna check that.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    I don't know about Missile though... it just doesn't look right. I've seen him fighting with that, it just doesn't look right. He shouldn't stop until he reaches an enemy. I know that you did that for Slow, but perhaps Slow isn't neccessary. The Horned Reaper, combined with Speed especially, is the fastest thing there is in the whole game. He also is the second best Melee fighter. Slow isn't needed in any way.
    Maybe, but he got that spell by default, so I won't see why I should remove it. Normally, I agree, the HR shouldn't stop. He should cast the Slow spell straight when he's next to the enemy creature. Once the Slow spell bug will be corrected, I'll remove the Missile spell of course! But I don't think I'll remove the Slow spell. Remember also that Slow takes a little while to recharge and it only applies to one enemy creature once in a little while. It won't cast the spell for ALL of them. The HR can also be unlucky when an enemy creature has Rebound.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    By the way, have you tested Drain for Skeletons? I'm not too sure about it actually... still testing.
    Nope, I didn't. I simply didn't wanted to allow them to heal themselves with that spell. Vampires and Ghosts which can be produced over and over again already have that spell too.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Was this from my patch as well? I can't remember.
    Yup!

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Agreed with both, but what about Protect for the Beetle? That's what I did.
    It would require to train him a bit to get the spell and generally, training beetles is a waste of money!

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    What. The. Hell? Rebound and Heal for a Hell Hound? Where's the logic for that? Fireball made more sense... I hope you're not trying to spread Rebound around the Evil Side again?
    Why not?
    Half of the heroes have that spell, and 1/8 of evil creatures have it. I simply wanted to give that spell to just ONE more creature, just a freaking insignificant LITTLE ONE MORE! *Sigh*
    Fireball made sense, but the thing it that Fireball is slower than the doggy once at full speed and he doesn't use that spell much when he's next to his prey, making it a bit useless.
    I simply wanted for the Hellhound to tough a bit longer. He's a bit weaker than the Orc and has a very low armour, causing him to die rather easily. Rebound and Heal would cause him to live longer but hey, look at which level I give these spells : 7 and 9. But if again you disagree, fine then, I can remove the Rebound spell, but give Heal at level 8.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    I agree with everything until I see Freeze and Hailstorm. I don't know if they were in my patch back then, but they aren't there now. Hailstorm I am sure wasn't there. Teleport probably is more fitting. Ghost shouldn't deal high damage. They, like Thieves, are stealth creatures.
    Hailstorm and Freeze spells seem to fit the Ghost pretty well since he's a very cold creature... Both of these spells are rare on the evil side and it sounds to be a good thing to give these to a creature you can increase in number. I once gave Teleport as well one time, but decided that it wasn't that much a good idea since they're pretty weak in combat (and teleport brings them to front line). They're most support creatures that should stay behind.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Why? Does that mean Dwarves and Giants be made non-humanoid?
    Lol! Since Imps can't be turned to Skeletons, it's useless to make them humanoid. They don't look that much humanoid... no? It's so insignificant anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    My only thing to say about this is... why is the Troll last? :P I'm just curious because you listed the changes via Creature Order, as did I. So Troll should be right after Skeleton. :P
    Because...
    Wanna me to sort into alphabetical order instead?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    2 may be too low for the Transfer Rate. Try 5, 6, or 7. I've tried chances that low and the results I recall weren't very good, it made the spell too useless. Remember this, Dragons are the slowest creatures in the whole game. They have a speed of 32. Even Bile Demons are faster. Your example of 2 Dragons is really poor, it makes faster creatures really invulnerable to the spell.

    Also, you didn't change the frequency of when health is lost, it seems. You've greatly weakened the spell. The damage is now 2%, instead of the original 10%. And with those percentage chances... it truly makes the spell worthless. Do remember that while I decreased the damage, I also increased the frequency of when the damage was dealt. I decreased the health lost from 10% to 1%, but also made the frequency 10 times higher.

    In other words, there barely was a difference with my changes. It only makes a difference when in certain circumstances.
    Nah... 5, 6 or 7 is already high. I just played a recent game with a percentage of 2 for both transfer chance and health loss and got my creatures to be diseased. Believe it or not, but in no time, mostly all of my creatures got diseased, even the fastest ones. I can increase the value to 3, but not much.

    As for health, yeah, it's a bit low. My goal is not to kill creatures with this too much powerful spell, just WEAKEN them. Dealing a very little damage more often sounds quite good, but I guess it's better that it takes a longer time but causes slightly more damage. Again, I can increase the value up to 3 or 4, but not much.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Why increase it? Did you find it to be too weak? I can't say much about those stats as I've never played around with the Heal Spell before. It would require some testing.

    Don't think too much of my judgement here as it is without testing to back me up as the other statements are, but I think those values may be a bit high. The Level 9 value is nearly double the default. Perhaps instead of going near double, you go barely beyond 150%?
    I wanted it to be proportional to the costs. I'll take a look.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    You truly have nerfed Disease.
    That was my goal since this spell is just TOO MUCH DEADLY.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    It would have been nice for you to note the original values as well. Even so, I do agree with these changes mostly.
    Original values:
    Steel door: 26000
    Boulder trap: 25000
    Lightning trap: 20000
    WOP trap: 20000

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    I don't know what to say about some of them. A good amount of them sound kind of unoriginal/simple. Troll + Troll, Warlock + Warlock, etc. That kind of thing. I kind of like the FX Sacrifices already there.

    Oh and for the Skeleton + Skeleton, don't the gods hate Undead? I don't get the Hero Fairy or Archer either. Those aren't neccessarily bad sacrifices.
    Sacrifices need to be simple to easily remember them. The already KeeperFX ones weren't that much intuitive, and most of the time, some "ingredients" weren't worth the award from the gods like:
    Code:
    MkCreature =  HELL_HOUND         DRAGON FLY
    MkCreature =  BUG                DARK_MISTRESS DRAGON
    MkCreature =  FLY                DRAGON HELL_HOUND
    MkCreature =  IMP                DARK_MISTRESS HELL_HOUND
    An additional recipe to get Horny is not necessary as there's already one existing. And getting a hero one is ugly. There's like too many ways to get such a very powerful creature.
    As for the spells given to all creatures, you generally never have the creatures needed to allow them. It's like, you must keep insects in your army if you want to give spells to all. That's just ugly.
    The others are so-so...

    Here, sacrifices are intuitive, simple and you generally have the creatures you need to allow them.

    As for the Skeleton sacrifices, yes, you're right on that. I'm gonna change that.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    I agree with all of these except for the Skeleton... why? Is it because he's bones and there can't be a "Bone Skeleton"? (Would be awesome though...)
    A "Bone Chicken" you mean? The reason is simple : Skeleton is undead and Chicken isn't. Turning Skeleton into Chicken would be like bringing the Skeleton back to life into a weaker form. Doesn't it make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Should they really be "PartnerTraining"? What's your reason?
    They're true fighters. Okay, maybe less the Giant, but still... Is it that much a problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Tell me... what are these "improvements"? And more importantly, why did you change them at all?
    Oh dear, there's too many to list them all. The most important one is surely the fact that creatures' strength is reduced to their original max of 255 since the authors based their campaign upon this. Some levels have been slightly modified to avoid finishing the level in a too easy way (like by walling your dungeon heart surrounded by water with temple squares and bring heroes beating the enemy keeper instead of you on level "Save The Avatar", or even, in "T'Kaan's Mistress" level, bring the Mistress destroy the white locked door at the far south of the level and allow the Horned Reapers to kill the yellow keeper, or there's also on "Salaar's Test" level where you can bring and push heroes into the enemy Keeper's dungeon). There's also some improvements on "The University of Hades". I simply changed the levels to be easier in a way and harder in another way, by respecting the way the authors wanted the levels to be played. Same goes for PostAK levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    No one can judge those changes if we know not what they are. Do tell us about said changes with a bit more detail.
    *Sigh* Okay. Mistle has been slightly modified by adding more impenetrable rocks at the north, between the hero castle and our dungeon. "Caddis Fell" has also been slightly modified by changing the way to access to the Blue Keeper's dungeon heart avoiding the heroes to invade his dungeon for an easy win... I don't remember the remaining things, but I know they're improving the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    I noticed you said nothing about the "Dexterity Fix". I had mentioned to you that you needed to lower Defense AND Dexterity, otherwise you end up having actual drastic changes with enemies dodging more often than they should. Did you already do that or no?
    Yes, both Dexterity and Defence have been lowered.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Also, is there any way you can have your patch handed out separately? I kinda don't like how anyone who wants to use FX are forced to use your patch. Patches should be applied optionally. To restore the original values, it takes a lot of work. It is just a suggestion as I noticed I always prefer playing with either the original or my own patch.
    Hmmm... yes, I can understand. You're right, I can do it that way. That's what I did before with the original game. Sorry for the inconvenience. Restoring default values can be long, that's true. But you know, some original configuration files are already available into some other campaigns, as in unpatched Ancient Keeper campaign. You can use these creature config files to restore creatures' data by default. As for the levels and scripts, just use the levels from the original game and replace them by the ones on KeeperFX, and hey, presto, everything is set by default!

    Mefisto, what do you think about that? Should we do that?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    I apologize on sounding a bit overly harsh in some areas. However, some of the things just go too far in the wrong way.
    You know, you're always free to change my data if you want. It's an unofficial patch and therefore, you can do whatever with it. You can even not install it if you want (this was before KeeperFX, now, I did a mistake and I'm sorry). You disagree on something? Just change it to bring it back by default if you want. My goal is to simply bring the modifications to make the game more fun to play by correcting the bugs and bringing improvements. You can disagree on the changes. Sure, you can. Just change them to your likings. That's what you already do and it's perfectly fine with that.
    Last edited by DragonsLover; December 31st, 2010 at 20:58.
    I like dragons! They're the center of my life! I'll never forget them...



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