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Thread: Build Wall

  
  1. #11
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Build Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    Similar things have been suggested here. The general consensus was that buildable walls are not a good idea, since their primary purposes would just be fixing bad dungeon design or other mistakes. (I accidentally got Heroes to breach my dungeon? Oh idc, just place a wall there. *bam* there. Fixed. Yay.). Plus, it's pretty much game breaking, especially in Hero maps.

    Plus, there's hardly a difference between instant fortified walls and instant unfortified walls. The only difference is that unfortified ones take a couple seconds and an Imp to fortify, and the only difference is that enemy Imps would be able to do anything - but by the time they could do anything anyway, it's fortified anyway. Kind of nulls the point of having buildable walls unfortified.
    Please listen to this post. It IS game breaking. Why? Because you can place it ANYWHERE. Like a Lava Trap. You can even use it to hide your own Dungeon Heart and the enemy won't be able to find it or reach it because unlike the Secret Door, fortified walls can't be broken so easily.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzi View Post
    Introduce a new skill for dwarf/imps to be able to dig through fortified walls at lvl 5+ or so (reason to train imps plus more value to your imps)

    Make high level imps/dwarf dig through the fortified wall! It will make game play far more intense and less afk until my units are lvl 10. =/
    Having a Hero going through specific locations to get to your heart is rather simple while 1 boulder takes them all out. Having heroes totally destroying your walls to pieces to get to your heart is far more entertaining and challenging.
    *sigh* Man I hate DK2. One of the things that annoys the crap out of me is that there is no point in reinforcing walls. Why? Because it is so easy to destroy them all since Hero Tunnellers/Dwarves and Imps can break through them like nothing. I even remember talking to kyle about this, and this was annoying since it removed the feeling of "being safe". So that's when I learned we were going with DK1 reinforced walls. Do you wanna take a step backwards?

    I can train a Level 10 Imp faster than I can research the Destroy Walls spell. Guess we better fix that. NERF

    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzi View Post
    IFFFF it's far to game breaking to you then make it high level imps can build walls which take around 10 seconds balancing enough?
    Not really. You can easily build a new wall inbetween waves of Heroes or anytime where there isn't a battle going on. 10 seconds isn't a very long time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzi View Post
    It's not so easy to fortify a wall. Especially if it's a wall where you can get more than 3 imps to pick at. Even if you do get it fortified, there's always that spell and your base is breached again.
    omg. The most difficult thing in the world. Pick up Imp. Drop Imp in front of wall. Oh god how will I ever be able to do that!? OMFG SO HARD.

    We're going with DK1 Reinforced walls last time I checked. Destroy Walls is the last spell so that isn't going to be available for some time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzi View Post
    you can see and shoot past it and it's very weak. it's actually one of the worst things to build in the game. the only things i build in multiplayer are sentry, gas, lighting.
    Do I have to go in a long explination of how the Barricade is useful, and that you just don't know how to use it properly? Just like with the Guard Post. I think the Barricade is one of the better things of DK2. Just because you can't see its usefulness doesn't mean it is useless. Just like this spell. Just because you can't see its brokeness, doesn't mean it isn't broken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzi View Post
    this is supposed to be the counter tremor spell!
    Well its broken.
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  2. #12
    Demon Spawn
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    Default Re: Build Wall

    Well mr. Metal. What do you think of building barricades that are fairly strong (stronger then DK1 Iron doors at least, they only took a few seconds). They can fill holes and act as walls that can be destroyed by any unit.

    The difference with doors is that they can be placed anywhere. I know plenty of uses. Perhaps make spiked barricades that hurt melee attackers.

  3. #13
    WFTO Developer Dizzi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Build Wall

    a stronger barricade could be cool. the barricade in dk2 is not useful. how can you say this, rex? that thing can be 1 shotted most of the time. gas and lighting traps is all you need in multiplayer. want a game? i can show you.

  4. #14

    Default Re: Build Wall

    Personally I really like the original idea and I've thought about it myself quite a bit. Nothing sucks more than stealing a defeated Keeper's dungeon for your own nefarious purposes only to realise that after your assault it's been rendered pretty useless as both a strategic stronghold and an expansion to your resource/creature gathering/catering facilities, or slipping with pickaxe tool when an imp is right by you (or if you're sad like me, accidentally misjudging the number of tiles a room should be and ruining the WHOLE SYMMETRY of your beautiful dungeon.) As for things like using it as an exploit in hero maps and that sort of deal it should be fine so long as it's advanced enough and expensive enough (and we ensure that whenever it's available on a hero map they have a supply of tunneler dwarfs, also maybe some AI for tunnelers to prioritise rescuing stranded heroes over attacking).

    The heart exploit is the only one that really troubles me, I suppose you could have some mechanic like if your rooms or claimed area is separated from your heart by a wall then it decays as if the heart has been destroyed in DK1. This fits in with the vague in universe explanation of the hearts and won't have any impact on essential game mechanics since that situation would have been impossible to get to in the other games.
    Last edited by Aval; February 1st, 2011 at 16:59.

  5. #15
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Build Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Airandius View Post
    Well mr. Metal. What do you think of building barricades that are fairly strong (stronger then DK1 Iron doors at least, they only took a few seconds). They can fill holes and act as walls that can be destroyed by any unit.
    Mr. Metal? Damn it, now I feel old... thanks a lot...

    Barricades are about as strong as Wooden Doors last time I checked. I don't think comparing this to Iron Doors in DK1 is fair. In DK1, Doors are very weak aside from Magic Doors. Steel/Iron Doors are much stronger in DK2. They're not designed to be like Steel Doors. They can't withstand the damage. They're supposed to be combined with ranged support to slow down enemies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airandius View Post
    The difference with doors is that they can be placed anywhere. I know plenty of uses. Perhaps make spiked barricades that hurt melee attackers.
    Well what are you getting at? A Reinforced Wall is what this topic is about, and Barricades don't compare to them at all. The usefulness thing was directed at Dizzi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzi View Post
    a stronger barricade could be cool. the barricade in dk2 is not useful. how can you say this, rex? that thing can be 1 shotted most of the time. gas and lighting traps is all you need in multiplayer. want a game? i can show you.
    *sigh* You forgot what I said about the Guard Post already, haven't you?

    Stronger Barricade and we got a DK1 Door effect. Only Magic Doors. Everything else sucks.

    They're good because you can put some traps behind them and damage the enemy a lot before they reach you. Even better if you combine Lightning Traps since with the stun effect, it slows down enemies even more.

    I don't play DK2 anymore. Too many crashes, like the game isn't already broken enough. If we were to play, I presume you're gonna go Black Knight army on me? You sound like you are because you clearly forgot about all the other creatures who can't 1 Shot a Barricade to death.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aval
    Personally I really like the original idea and I've thought about it myself quite a bit. Nothing sucks more than stealing a defeated Keeper's dungeon for your own nefarious purposes only to realise that after your assault it's been rendered pretty useless as both a strategic stronghold and an expansion to your resource/creature gathering/catering facilities, or slipping with pickaxe tool when an imp is right by you (or if you're sad like me, accidentally misjudging the number of tiles a room should be and ruining the WHOLE SYMMETRY of your beautiful dungeon.)
    That's a flaw on your part for making a mistake in building a dungeon. A Dungeon Keeper doesn't need a second dungeon, they got their first one. Who cares how screwed up this other one is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aval
    As for things like using it as an exploit in hero maps and that sort of deal it should be fine so long as it's advanced enough and expensive enough
    Gem. Making everything cost over 9000 is just an excuse to bring more powerful and broken things into the game. Now its whoever is wealthier can win. Who cares about large armies and strategies. I got haxing game-breaking tools on myside cause I'm f***ing rich.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aval
    (and we ensure that whenever it's available on a hero map they have a supply of tunneler dwarfs, also maybe some AI for tunnelers to prioritise rescuing stranded heroes over attacking).
    What?
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  6. #16

    Default Re: Build Wall

    Why should you be punished so harshly for s minor slip up early on? Bare in mind you're still being punished, you're paying in money and a looong amount of research time.

    Runaway economy is a bit of an issue yeah, but personally I think that's more of an issue with gems in general; or rather how they're used. Most things can be game breaking if the player has like, four faces of exposed gems at their disposal.

    Finally, to clarify, you were talking about a situation where a few heroes are in a narrow passageway without a tunneller, so the player traps them there with a couple of Build Wall spells and doesn't need to bother with them any more or something right? As soon as that happens why can't whatever tunnelers are around suddenly change direction to free them (or a new one spawn if needed)?

  7. #17
    Demon Spawn
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    Default Re: Build Wall

    I compare everything to DK1 because I didn't really play the second. After around 5 campaign maps I had enough of the slow pace and boring design. I disliked sentries as well. Not to mention that the models are horrible. I preferred the sprites a lot better.
    After that I did some skirmish, saw there was a casino and thought what is this crap. I made it and bang suddenly weird music plays and all monster dance like idiots for way too long.
    At that point I just uninstalled.

    Now I understand why barricades should be small. Ranged support. But why not give the player the option to make a stronger barricade that pretty much serves as a makeshift wall. It can be destroyed but it at least gives you some time and might just redirect heroes if there is an opening somewhere else in your dungeon.

  8. #18
    WFTO Developer Dizzi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Build Wall

    If the spell had 30s cooldown, it would be enough to stop spam. 60 walls at 30mins if you have the mana to cast it that many times.

    You can always set a restriction that your dungeon heart must have one entrance. As I suggested in another thread, having all dungeon walls totaly indestructable (different type of fortified rock that your imps cannot dig either) your first move would be to place an entrance. This entrance can not be blocked.

    If you introduce the Imps level 5+ skill to dig enemy walls, the spell will not be as great. But, it will still have its uses. The Imp level 5+ skill itself is a good idea. This will prevent long pointless games waiting for someone to have the guts to dig into a new area. It does take a while to have a level 5 Imp so it's usualy time to get some action going. Plus, they can die and you might never get lvl 5 imp (They will only die if you are actually engaging in fights meaning you wouldn't really need one level 5+ in the first place)

    Fortify vs Dig should be like:
    1 digger = impossible
    2 diggers= long time
    3 diggers= a short long time

    Diaganal lined walls are always the best way to avoid breach since you can use 2 imps to fortify. Otherwise they will go 1 forti vs 6 dig

  9. #19

    Default Re: Build Wall

    Gotta say I agree with Rex on the imp 5+ skill thing. One of the nicest things about the first game was how safe you felt in your own dungeon, and that rush you got when you closed off a bottleneck to allow yourself as much expansion as you want or when that high risk gamble pays off and you steal a shitton of gold from under an enemy's nose. Perhaps it could work if it was a level 10 skill, and if imps get increasingly expensive and time consuming to train - to the point that you are going to research Destroy Walls before you get any imps doing it.

  10. #20
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Build Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Aval View Post
    Why should you be punished so harshly for s minor slip up early on? Bare in mind you're still being punished, you're paying in money and a looong amount of research time.
    Because it makes the game too easy. Say, for instance, a Hero level like Blaise End. You have to dig out once and then deal with the tunneller parties from that point of the game on. With this it's more like "oh, whoops, just rewall that, fixed. yay." It really takes the challenge out of some level types.

    And as for multiplayer or against AI keepers... no more tension when you find yourself with access opened up to you by the enemy. Just "bam, wall, fix'd". Again, no challenge left.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aval View Post
    Runaway economy is a bit of an issue yeah, but personally I think that's more of an issue with gems in general; or rather how they're used. Most things can be game breaking if the player has like, four faces of exposed gems at their disposal.
    Good map design can prevent that. On the other hand, no map design could work against someone walling himself + gems in completely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aval View Post
    Finally, to clarify, you were talking about a situation where a few heroes are in a narrow passageway without a tunneller, so the player traps them there with a couple of Build Wall spells and doesn't need to bother with them any more or something right? As soon as that happens why can't whatever tunnelers are around suddenly change direction to free them (or a new one spawn if needed)?
    Flee for what, and to where? And what would a new spawn do? Run to the hills?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzi View Post
    If the spell had 30s cooldown, it would be enough to stop spam. 60 walls at 30mins if you have the mana to cast it that many times.
    60 walls sounds like enough to wall yourself in completely. In fact, with good dungeon design (for the people who wouldn't need this spell otherwise) I only need like 5 at most. The other 55 walls I can just use to fortify the front part with layers and layers of walls. Good luck breaking through that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzi View Post
    You can always set a restriction that your dungeon heart must have one entrance. As I suggested in another thread, having all dungeon walls totaly indestructable (different type of fortified rock that your imps cannot dig either) your first move would be to place an entrance. This entrance can not be blocked.
    Arbitrary restrictions just to balance a particular thing out tend to make that particular thing a bad idea. Just sayin'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzi View Post
    If you introduce the Imps level 5+ skill to dig enemy walls, the spell will not be as great. But, it will still have its uses. The Imp level 5+ skill itself is a good idea. This will prevent long pointless games waiting for someone to have the guts to dig into a new area. It does take a while to have a level 5 Imp so it's usualy time to get some action going. Plus, they can die and you might never get lvl 5 imp (They will only die if you are actually engaging in fights meaning you wouldn't really need one level 5+ in the first place)
    And as posted above, removes the 'safety' feeling that fortified walls are supposed to have.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzi View Post
    Fortify vs Dig should be like:
    1 digger = impossible
    2 diggers= long time
    3 diggers= a short long time (wat)

    Diaganal lined walls are always the best way to avoid breach since you can use 2 imps to fortify. Otherwise they will go 1 forti vs 6 dig
    If Imps can just fortify walls to keep them from being breached, that kind of defeats the point of having them breachable in the first place. Also, a regular line wall will have 1 vs 3 imps fortifying and digging respectively, and a diagonal 2 vs 6. Doesn't make much of a difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aval View Post
    Gotta say I agree with Rex on the imp 5+ skill thing. One of the nicest things about the first game was how safe you felt in your own dungeon, and that rush you got when you closed off a bottleneck to allow yourself as much expansion as you want or when that high risk gamble pays off and you steal a shitton of gold from under an enemy's nose. Perhaps it could work if it was a level 10 skill, and if imps get increasingly expensive and time consuming to train - to the point that you are going to research Destroy Walls before you get any imps doing it.
    Then what would the point of the imp breach skill if it's going to be exponentially more expensive and time-consuming just for that and when you will end up having destroy walls by that time anyway? It just nerfs higher-leveled imps for being more expensive to get, with no practical benefit.
    Last edited by Mothrayas; February 1st, 2011 at 19:28.

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