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Thread: Dropping Creatures - Or not

  
  1. #1
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    Default Dropping Creatures - Or not

    Hi all

    All time DK fan here, which is why I recently took a stab at the NBKE framework :-)

    After messing with it abit to get some basic functionality setup, i suddently got re-annoyed of a game mechanic that somehow always didn't seem complete to me in both DK and DK2:

    Creatures dropped from out of nowhere from a invisible keeper hand is "cool" and all, but to me it mudders the strategy aspect of the game since you cannot really predict when an enemy keeper decides to drop 16 creatures right at the edge of your dungeon, after which you are pretty much forced to do the same.
    It feels abit too much like Pokémon to me...

    Also, the "stun" mechanic always seemed to be a inevtible source of imbalance: The creature type who "gets up the fastest" will always have somekind of strange combat advantage.

    I was thinking about doing a "tag this enemy creature for attack for a gold bounty", after which interested and able creatures would head in for the kill. (Majesty/Evil genius style)

    (I guess it's a halfway between the rally point spell and current creatures drop mechanic...)


    What do people feel about this?

  2. #2
    Fly Jack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dropping Creatures - Or not

    Wrong section Doggy ^^ You should have posted in the "Suggestion"section.

    Anyway, personally I don't like your idea too much for a couple of reasons:

    - How could you decide if a creature is able and interested in killing the enemy with a bounty? Suppose the creature is possessed, it could actually survive longer then a "normal" creature so supposing your goblin could kill another goblin could prove false.
    - Let's not forget Dungeon Keeper is actually a god game, like Black and white for example. You cannot predict when your enemy will drop 16 creature at the edge of your dungeon but you can build your dungeon so that it can resist those attacks, and you must give your creatures the possibility to win a battle also if they are outnumbered (I'm speaking of training them ).


    Anyway that's my personal opinion
    Last edited by Jack; January 16th, 2011 at 21:13.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Dropping Creatures - Or not

    Ah, sorry for posting in the wrong section.
    I will keep in mind to stick to the "Suggestion" section in the future.

    And thanks for your thoughts on this

    I dont think determining if a creature is interested in combat is much of a problem when theres so many variables to take from, DK being a rather detailed simulator.
    Currently I am experimenting with simple formulas for determining a creature's "combatThirst" which goes something like this:

    combatThirst = (concentration*health*happy)/(gold*hunger*fear*sleepy)

    But this requires quite alot of tweaking of course.

    • You have a good point about the keeper needing to build his dungeon as strong as possible to resist heavy attacks. But I think that should be true regardless of the actual method of attack.


    • I don't quite get your point about possessed creatures being stronger than a un-possessed creature? How is that related to the "dropping creature" mechanic?


    I dont think that being a god game has much to do with the ability to drop/pick up creatures. The Bullfrog games that pretty much defined the god game genre: Populous, did not have such feature at all.
    The concept in god games is more that as a god you are supposed to influence, not directly control your creatures.

    Dont get me wrong, I like to directly pick up up creatures myself and it's needed for managing your dungeon anyway. Theres no way i could imagine DK without it :-)
    It's just that picking creatures and dropping them for the sake of combat always seemed abit....weak, since it pretty much always goes like this:

    • Drop creatures near a room/rally in a room and hope they attack it and not another nearby room

    • Drop creatures near enemy creatures and hope they attack the right creatures

    • Drop creatures near enemy treasury and hope they steal some gold

    • Generally hope your creatures are not too easily distracted and start wandering off because they did what they thought was needed

    To me, this always seemed to encourages periodic waves of blitz krieg.
    As such, the whole rally/dropping mechanic makes it hard to dictate even high level objectives clearly to your creatures.
    I actually think Lionhead had some of the same considerations when doing B&W:

    • You do not drop villagers near your borders for the sake of combat

    • You do tie/mark the creature to specific targets for control

    • In B&W 2, you don't drop your troops near borders to make them attack...

    But yeah i'm not saying this mechanic is be-all clear replacement for rallying/dropping.
    I just wish for a more clear communication channel to my creatures. (...other than the slap )
    Last edited by Doggy; January 16th, 2011 at 22:37.

  4. #4
    Mistress kyle's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dropping Creatures - Or not

    In relation to the tagging thing, I found it tedious in majesty 2 to have to put a bounty on everything I wanted done, instead of making my creatures do it. It was also makes attacking cost money.

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    WFTO Developer Dizzi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dropping Creatures - Or not

    bounty? sounds like majesty. there should be a drop speed limit and pick up limit because you can actually get a macro to click super fast i think that will solve it with addition of gameplay mechanic tweaks.

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    Mistress kyle's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dropping Creatures - Or not

    Yup, pick up limit is back, with the removal of drop stun. Slowing down drop rate is actually a good idea. I don't think it should apply to imps though, so you can just drop some of them quickly to claim a room.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Dropping Creatures - Or not

    Ok sorry I've misunderstood a couple of things you wrote

    Anyway, we are actually working on making creatures AI more complex and precise, so you shouldn't worry much about having creatures doing something different of what you want them to do.

    This brings us to what you were asking for: A more clear communication channels with your creatures. Having a more complex creature behaviour means you'll have to know what are exactly the needs of your creatures. We could probably have something like a text box (or a menu we still don't know) which will show you what is the creature thinking. Anyway we are not planning to change the Hand of evil tasks for now, but as always if you have any suggestion we are always happy to hear them

  8. #8
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dropping Creatures - Or not

    I moved this thread over to the Suggestions sub-forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyle View Post
    Yup, pick up limit is back, with the removal of drop stun. Slowing down drop rate is actually a good idea. I don't think it should apply to imps though, so you can just drop some of them quickly to claim a room.
    I agree with the slow-down, and the no slow-down for the Imps. There shouldn't be too much slow down but enough to make a difference. But the only thing we must be careful about is if the enemy attacks the Player with a full invasion force, and he is having problems defending because he cannot drop his Creatures fast enough.

    Though that also spells out more usefulness for the Hold Audience spell.
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    WFTO Developer Dizzi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dropping Creatures - Or not

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    But the only thing we must be careful about is if the enemy attacks the Player with a full invasion force, and he is having problems defending because he cannot drop his Creatures fast enough.
    lol? :S

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    Keeper of Keepers dotted's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dropping Creatures - Or not

    Quote Originally Posted by kyle View Post
    Yup, pick up limit is back, with the removal of drop stun. Slowing down drop rate is actually a good idea. I don't think it should apply to imps though, so you can just drop some of them quickly to claim a room.
    NO! Anything but slowing the droprate, please! I for one absolutely hate it when i try to do something and there is some artificial limit that prevents me from doing it.
    "The essence of religion: Fear God and obey God. The quintessence of spirituality: Love God and become another God." -- Sri Chinmoy

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