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  1. #11

    Default Re: Bat

    I think this beats the Fly, which is somewhat useless. Plus, it has an interesting niche in that its upgradeable.

    The Life Leach makes me think of Drain. Depending on how this is tweaked, they could be too strong, since they can be placed behind battling troops and "Drain". Or with their high speed, Drain Drain move back... who needs a Graveyard? lol

    AoE Paralyze even for 2 seconds doesn't seem very appropriate for a Scout type unit. To be balanced, it could simply slow everyone in the area for 4 seconds, IF there is no Other Enemy in sight. So it becomes strictly an irritation ability, plus it has the side effect of being able to "slow" the Heroes advance towards your Dungeon Heart. Dropped in the right places it can easily break up continuous Hero Attacks into bite sized waves.

    All this without affecting combat, in which 4 seconds Slowed or 2 Seconds Frozen is a long time and is too powerful. In DK1, timed properly, 6 Mistresses dropped from around the corner ( they take about 1-2 seconds to react after being dropped) can almost instantly kill most Heroes walking around the Corner.

    Implementation wise, this is difficult because the Bat would be registered as an Enemy, thereby immediately disabling its Stun / Slow. Perhaps a Teleport Back to Lair on using it?

    BTW, this has a very interesting Multiplayer Use, to fly a Bat towards Enemy Imps who are mining and Mass Slow them.
    Last edited by Zyraen; June 6th, 2011 at 06:16.

  2. #12
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bat

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyraen View Post
    I think this beats the Fly, which is somewhat useless. Plus, it has an interesting niche in that its upgradeable.
    The Fly is not useless, it is a very fast scout unit that is especially useful in lands with lots of water and lava.
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  3. #13
    WFTO Developer Dizzi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bat

    The fly should see stealth, would have a reason to have at least 1 in your team. In terms of combat, fly was crap I can't figure out what's good about the "bat" can someone summarize it's purpose for me? I feel there needs to be another flying creature but a bat? It does actually hurt to have the same role as a fly as it makes the fly redundant and for a game like dungeon keeper, every unit should be useful. For any RTS every unit should be useful :T

  4. #14
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bat

    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzi View Post
    The fly should see stealth, would have a reason to have at least 1 in your team. In terms of combat, fly was crap I can't figure out what's good about the "bat" can someone summarize it's purpose for me? I feel there needs to be another flying creature but a bat? It does actually hurt to have the same role as a fly as it makes the fly redundant and for a game like dungeon keeper, every unit should be useful. For any RTS every unit should be useful :T
    Exactly why you shouldn't be working on the Units. It isn't your strongpoint. I know you weren't assigned to this task, it was something you just decided to do, and personally think you should stop because you might just end up wasting your time.

    First off, the Fly is a scout unit so of course his combat abilities are going to be awful. The Bat's own good abilities are that he is a little better in combat, and can turn into a Vampire.

    The former ability is questionable since as a result of better combat abilities, he loses some scouting abilities and isn't as fast as say a Fly. It seems like a bad trade-off considering that a scout's combat abilities don't really matter, what matters is thier scouting abilities.

    The latter ability is debatable... you lose your scout but you can gain a Vampire, yet said Vampire can just as easily be obtained by killing some enemies. Both ways require a Graveyard, but the Bat needs to be Level 10 for him to turn to a Vampire. Time training could be better spent exploring, and then there also is the gold it takes to train him up to Level 10 as well. I'd have to say it isn't exactly a plus either.

    The Fly is the perfect scout unit for multiple reasons. He can fly, so no terrain stops him. He is one of the fastest, if not the fastest, unit in the game so he can get the job done fast. And he can see invisible through Sight, meaning he could spot any invisible enemies heading towards your dungeon.

    Compared to the Fly, the Bat is quite a step down in terms of being a scout unit, which is exactly what the Bat's supposed to be. Therefore, I don't think the Bat should make it in WftO. Not just because it is redundant to have two scouts but also because the Bat isn't really useful compared to the Fly, who is available from the start.
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  5. #15

    Default Re: Bat

    MGR : Actually, I was thinking in terms of the Bat replacing the Fly totally. It only requires a few Food Tiles and a Lair, how late is that compared to the Fly?
    - Since both units fly, the Fly has not much competitiveness there.
    - Both the Bat and Fly have See Invisible, effectively
    - Since the Bat has not yet been implemented, its not a far stretch to make him as fast as the Fly

    Compared to the Fly, the Bat is quite a step down in terms of being a scout unit, which is exactly what the Bat's supposed to be.
    So from the above 3 points, this statement you made earlier isn't quite true.

    - Since the Bat has level 4 Life Leach, it becomes more useful, and not to mention Level 10 Screech. Yet to be fair, just like the Bat can be made as fast as the Fly, these abilities are nothing that cannot be added to the Fly itself, apart from the Vampire thing (kinda weird for a Fly to become a Vampire)

    ===============

    At the end, both units fulfill the same role. The Fly is the "incumbent", but the Bat seems more upgradeable than the Fly (Life Leach etc suits a Bat more than a Fly, I think) so I might be biased, but I'd go for the Bat.

    The last bit the Bat has over the Fly is Atmosphere
    You see a dark cave, you see Bats flying out. You see a Castle (in DK1 Trailer), the Knight opens the big front Doors, you see Bats flying out. You see a dank Graveyard in a dungeon, you see Bats flying out.
    Try putting the a swarm of Flies in with the above 3 scenarios, see if it fits. Maybe the Graveyard, if there's recently killed stuff there...
    In short, the Bat simply fits the Game Better (well DK1 at least, dunno about the DK2 or WFTO)

    End of the day, its still just Personal Preference vs the Incumbent Fly.
    I agree with both you and Dizzi, there should only be One such early game Scout.
    Last edited by Zyraen; June 7th, 2011 at 08:19.
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  6. #16

    Default Re: Bat

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    yet said Vampire can just as easily be obtained by killing some enemies. Both ways require a Graveyard, but the Bat needs to be Level 10 for him to turn to a Vampire. Time training could be better spent exploring, and then there also is the gold it takes to train him up to Level 10 as well. I'd have to say it isn't exactly a plus either.
    You could still get a let's say lvl 5 vampire after the upgrade which is a huge plus...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyraen View Post
    The last bit the Bat has over the Fly is Atmosphere
    I like the bat idea and I might go even that far to say it should replace the fly

  7. #17
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bat

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyraen View Post
    MGR : Actually, I was thinking in terms of the Bat replacing the Fly totally. It only requires a few Food Tiles and a Lair, how late is that compared to the Fly?
    The Fly requires nothing. He'll be coming into the Dungeon before you even build a Treasury, which comes before the Lair and Hatchery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyraen View Post
    - Since the Bat has not yet been implemented, its not a far stretch to make him as fast as the Fly
    Actually the Fly has Speed Monster, which makes him double his movement speed. So he's technically twice as fast as the Bat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyraen View Post
    - Since the Bat has level 4 Life Leach, it becomes more useful, and not to mention Level 10 Screech. Yet to be fair, just like the Bat can be made as fast as the Fly, these abilities are nothing that cannot be added to the Fly itself, apart from the Vampire thing (kinda weird for a Fly to become a Vampire)
    Like I said before, the Bat has better combat abilities. He is slower than the Fly, however. Either give him the Speed or give him those combat spells, because he can't have everything.

    The Vampire ability doesn't really help the Bat at all. The reason is because the Bat cannot train in the Training Room up to Level 10 anymore. Meaning he has to actually go into combat and fight until he's Level 10. He may have some better combat abilities compared to the Fly, but he's not good enough to last long enough to level up to Level 10.

    And, even if he could survive that long, the time it would take is too long compared to the time it takes to kill some enemies and throw their bodies into a Graveyard. Obviously you would have access to a lot of enemies if you're able to have the Bat fight them to reach Level 10 off of them.

    So you see, the Vampire ability doesn't really help the Bat out at all. It helps neither one of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyraen View Post
    At the end, both units fulfill the same role. The Fly is the "incumbent", but the Bat seems more upgradeable than the Fly (Life Leach etc suits a Bat more than a Fly, I think) so I might be biased, but I'd go for the Bat.
    As stated before, the Bat focuses more on combat and the Fly has Speed in his spell set so he'll be much faster. Speed > Combat when it comes to being a Scout. So I pick the Fly as my scout. He'd finish the job twice as fast as the Bat.

    It should be noted that there was one ability that could be given to the Fly, which would be "Corrosive Vomit" that is kind of like poison in that it deals damage over time. In the original DK1, there was mention of this when you obtained the Fly.

    Your first minion has arrived. It's a giant Fly. It can spit corrosive vomit at your enemies and its wings grant the hideous insect the speed to intercept the most nimble trespassers.
    Can't give that ability to the Bat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyraen View Post
    The last bit the Bat has over the Fly is Atmosphere
    You see a dark cave, you see Bats flying out. You see a Castle (in DK1 Trailer), the Knight opens the big front Doors, you see Bats flying out. You see a dank Graveyard in a dungeon, you see Bats flying out.
    Try putting the a swarm of Flies in with the above 3 scenarios, see if it fits. Maybe the Graveyard, if there's recently killed stuff there...
    In short, the Bat simply fits the Game Better (well DK1 at least, dunno about the DK2 or WFTO)

    End of the day, its still just Personal Preference vs the Incumbent Fly.
    I agree with both you and Dizzi, there should only be One such early game Scout.
    In the DK1 Introduction, there were horses. Should we add them too, now?

    It isn't down to personal preference because the Bat can't have everything. He has combat-related spells, but the Fly has Speed, making him lesser to the Bat in terms of combat but greater than the Bat in terms of scouting. And as a scout unit, I think we should go with the one that can do the job better.

    Even if it did come down to personal preference, I'd have to say the Fly is the better choice for two reasons. The first is because he's been in both DK1 and DK2. There's the feeling of nostalgia for older players coming by to play WftO.

    The second is because the Fly is an insect, so he has his own group to fit in with, which would be the Beetle and Spider. (Even if the Spider doesn't like him, he's still an insect) DK1 had a bunch of relationships like that. There's the Dragon/Demon Spawn who are obviously father/son. Then the Troll/Orc, which look like cousins. And then there is the Undead group of Ghosts, Skeletons, Vampires, and now Archliches. Plus, giant insects are creepy as hell.

    You argue that we could give the Bat the same stats and spells as Fly, and technically we could. Technically, we could transform the Ghost into a miner, the Imp into a tank, and even recruit a Unicorn and make it torture itself seducively while being a ranged DPS unit like the Dark Mistress. Technically, we could do that.

    But it doesn't make the game any better. It logically doesn't make sense. The Fly is better suited as a scout logically because Flies are both very fast and also they buzz around all the time. Bats aren't as fast nor as active.

    The Fly beats the Bat both as an effective Scout Unit, but also preference for the reasons stated above. I think the choice of who we should go with is very obvious, I'm surprised you can't see it.

    * * * * *

    Quote Originally Posted by sly View Post
    You could still get a let's say lvl 5 vampire after the upgrade which is a huge plus...
    It was never stated that the Vampire gained from the Bat would be Level 5, nor do I think that a Level 5 Vampire should be obtained from one. The information about the Level of the Vampire gained was actually never stated.

    Vampires can resurrect themselves at that Level. Not to mention, it costs a lot of gold and time to train them up that far. Being able to simply get a Level 5 Vampire from a Bat sounds really cheap.
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  8. #18

    Default Re: Bat

    Oh yes, I totally forgot that Flies have Speed, thanks for the mention.
    I'm not going to debate on the no Room requirement vs a few Food tiles though.

    Getting a low/mid level Vampire from a level 10 Bat is not cheap if you need to have a Graveyard (but not necessarily the bodycount). It means that midgame, there is meaning in training the Bat scout in anticipation of my Graveyard being researched, rather than tossing him out the Portal to make room for Mistresses etc. That is of course assuming a Portal Limit.

    Comparing Bats to Horses, your point being? Since the argument in the first place was not "if something shows up in the Cinematic, then it should be in the game." We employ imageries to let the reader understand the point, rather than the image being a point in itself.
    Whether the bats are more Atmospheric compared to Flies, that's something that can be assessed by others based on the questions asked.

    As I mentioned earlier, its just a personal preference that Bats should replace Flies, and Flies are ultimately incumbent which is always a strong point in their favour. Personally, I don't find insects creepy and I think the removal of Spiders and Beetles in DK2 was OK. If we pursue that line further, tossing out the Fly because his "own group" is gone is also a valid argument. I like what you're proposing with the Beetle though, and its a high level Design / Development decision whether or not to eliminate all the Insects from the game.

    I also agree that Flies are probably more active than Bats (24 hr activity vs night-time only).

    While all the argument has been about being a dedicated Scout, its worth noting this - in an environment like Dungeon Keeper where there are generally limited wide open spaces and majority of the game has to do with digging that a Scout cannot do (not sure if there will be Fog of War in WFTO, without FoW a Scout's role is diminished because its a one time requirement), is it Necessary to have a dedicated Scout?
    Majority of the game my Fly tends to buzz around my dungeon doing nothing (well, actually I toss him out before that), and if he doesn't he is quickly killed since I rarely tap-on the Flee button (does anyone reading this often use it?).
    In such a setting, a Scout that can later be used as a light combat support and then upgradeable would make a lot more sense than a dedicated Scout. Even if he finishes the job quickly, that means once his job is done, Out He Goes.
    Not to mention, after some time most maps become familiar.

    ====================

    In any case, from an ongoing Development viewpoint (like the WFTO team) it would make perfect sense to put some "Suggestions" up as fixed, ie a post which states certain ideas / creatures are fixed and need not be debated further. This would make especial sense for Creatures Rooms etc that already have considerable work done up on it, like those very awesome 3D models on the blog-site.

    Edit : I created a separate thread, hopefully that would give more utility / purpose to a dedicated Scout Role in WTFO.
    http://keeperklan.com/threads/2024-Scouting-Suggestions
    Last edited by Zyraen; June 8th, 2011 at 03:11.
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  9. #19
    WFTO Developer V0id's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bat

    OK, this here is indeed not my field of expertise.
    But I want to say: I like this Idea, especially the scouting, while avoiding attacks. (would love to work on this behaviour ^^)
    In my dk experience, I had a lot to bother with these flys, all the time they got killed by scouting and later by spiders.
    The bat seem to reveal key such problems, while it also seem to fit well in the dungeon keeper universe.
    If this does not lead to inbalance, I would prefer the bat instead of the fly and if this suggestion would be rejected,
    i would like to have the fly a little more like this bat.
    It's not my aim to spit silly comments into our experienced creature balance debating society,
    I just wanted to say: For me, without pondering a lot about balance, it sounds like a pretty nice idea =)

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