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Thread: Weaponry/Armory Room

  
  1. #11

    Default Re: Weaponry/Armory Room

    yay my 1st post here,and wish you guys the best of luck with War for the Overworld,its an epic project(wish i could help in some way)

    I think that iron ore should one of the resources in the game,but not a plentiful resources like gold and manna,this would make gems a little less useful.Armor,weapons some doors and some traps should need iron to make(or everything).The ore could be obtained by mining away rock,one unit per a "block" of rock,or by melting down goodies' armor and weapons

    my English can be a little weird,sorry for that

  2. #12
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weaponry/Armory Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzi View Post
    how can u balance then think of the concept? :S confusing
    *sigh* http://www.keeperklan.com/threads/698-General-Overlord

    Quote Originally Posted by Sire View Post
    Level 10 (50/30): Final Orders (Gives the final orders to this unit, making this unit and all units following it unselectable. All Stats are tripled, and all units head straight for the objective. Once done, this unit leaves your cause.
    Do you see NOTHING wrong with this in terms of balance?

    Concept isn't always before balance. Look at the Succubus. Evi's and Sire's version are quite different from each other. Yet I vote for Evi's. Why? Because Sire's is completely broken. It has something similar to a turn-coat effect, without cure and no one is immune. How does that fit into balance? You'd have to change the concept of it completely. Times like that is when balance comes before concept, otherwise you'd just end up wasting your time if the concept idea is broken itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzi View Post
    u say all that stuff about advantages...but, that's the current situation of the game anyway! you can train units that costs money and makes units stronger. i don't understand why you would bring up the obvious :S it's like we should take leveing out because it's the same principal.
    (facepalming is directed at the bold... mostly...)

    Seriously. If you understand that, then how do you not see the problem I have here? We already have a way of making units stronger, by training them. This complicates things and gives something Players must always remember. If we have different increased values for each creature, then that means the Player must remember all of those different increases or he won't be able to prepare properly. It could screw up his strategy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    I like the idea. If we set it correctly you won't have a single Horned reaper shredding an entire army to pieces just because it has a +1 armor.
    If it is that small an upgrade then the idea is pointless and it is a big waste of money.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Going back to Rex example, the armor should not double the value of the creature. It adds something like a 0,5 (max) for example. This way the creature would still die by the hands of 2 similar creature, but has more chance of survival in a great battle.
    Even if it is as small as 25% increase in value, it WILL make a BIG difference when you have larger armies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Plus I think we should give the armors quite a cost. They should be an insurance for high lvl creatures, so you won't lose a lvl 10 mistress because she has encountered 3 lvl 9 goblins
    I know it is costly, but that also adds more usefulness to Gem Rocks. Using the Gem can give your entire army the best armor. Wealth has its usefulness, but this suggestion does bring even more usefulness to Wealth, to a point where it is imbalanced.

    A poor Player will have a tough time keeping up with a richer Player, but he isn't doomed. If he's smart enough, and uses the right strategies, he can outdo the richer Player.

    With this, that is quite an impossibility and big inbalance. He will not be able to aford the higher costing armors, and the richer Player will be able to. He'll upgrade his army, and that Poor Player's chance of victory will vanish instantly when his enemy's army is better than his in every way.

    There's nothing balanced about that at all. And the concept idea is where the imbalance is. It isn't something that is easily tweaked because you can also reach the point where it is useless.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
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  3. #13
    Fly Jack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weaponry/Armory Room

    Much of the game is set up on wealth. If you have a lot of money you can train your creatures better. So the poor player loses anyway. I wouldn't throw the idea of saving my only lvl 10 bile demon by spending like 5k just because you think a bonus on the creature pointless is not balanced.
    Anyway as you said if the poor player uses the right strategies he can beat the richer one, and it won't be a tiny bonus on the armor to modify this. AND anyway if you find yourself in a situation with a "Poor player" and the "Rich player" then there is surely something unbalanced about the map OR the poor player really sux, so he'll lose anyway.

  4. #14
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weaponry/Armory Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Much of the game is set up on wealth. If you have a lot of money you can train your creatures better. So the poor player loses anyway. I wouldn't throw the idea of saving my only lvl 10 bile demon by spending like 5k just because you think a bonus on the creature pointless is not balanced.
    True, however, it still isn't impossible to win. If there are too many advantages of wealth, then as the poor player, you kinda lose all chance/hope of winning. The Mana system I like (I didn't for a while until I realized this) because it removed the great advantages of wealth. And I'm talking about spamming Lightning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Anyway as you said if the poor player uses the right strategies he can beat the richer one, and it won't be a tiny bonus on the armor to modify this. AND anyway if you find yourself in a situation with a "Poor player" and the "Rich player" then there is surely something unbalanced about the map OR the poor player really sux, so he'll lose anyway.
    Most Deeper Dungeons map have a computer player outdoing you in most fields. (Creature numbers, levels, wealth, etc) Yet you can still win anyways. Giving too much advantage to Wealth, however, really lowers your chance of winning. Something like this makes his army reach a value so high that you may be screwed either way.

    Having to remove this Room in those maps just shows an imbalance right there.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

  5. #15
    Demon Spawn
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    Default Re: Weaponry/Armory Room

    Hey Mr Metal,

    Instead of shooting down most suggestions why not improve them so that they would work. I mean like, I'm all for having new stuff.

    Anyway I have a very good example as to why upgrades aren't that bad. Warcraft 3.
    In Warcraft 3 you can upgrade both the weapons and armour of certain unit classes. I can't provide with the raw data as I don't have the game here but for some amount of money you are able to upgrade them with perhaps 5 or 10%.
    In a 1 on 1 fight, the upgraded units win and are left with near to none health.

    Why do people upgrade? Because it gives them a slight advantage over the enemy if they do it faster. They both have access so it's not like one player is stronger then the other.
    The same applies to Dungeon Keeper, why do we train them? To gain the advantage. Upgrades only add to this.

    The difference between this suggestion and the upgrades in WC3 is that the upgrades in WC3 count for all units while the upgrade in DK only applies to one and can be picked up by others.
    Initially nobody has the advantage, depending on what a player does there are multiple ways to gain an advantage.
    Upgrading is just one of them, boost the strength of a few units that are very important in your strategy to make your strategy a lot more effective.
    Don't forget that the opposite player has the same choice and opportunity.

    Do I want to take the advantage by taking that gold deposit near my enemy? Do I want to use an army of bile demons to quickly kill his melee fighters or should I take warlocks for their ranged power? Should I upgrade the damage of my damage dealing monsters for a more aggressive and fast battle or should I upgrade the defence of my warlocks so they survive a little longer if they fight a melee unit. Do I upgrade both but with a weaker one in order for balance or am I going to upgrade my strongest unit to the max.

    There is nothing unbalanced about the suggestion even though it's the main counterargument. Both players have access and as long as both players are on the same skill level and the map is balanced nobody wont have a clear advantage. It all depends on the tactic that the person uses. It's a huge gamble as you don't know what your enemy might do. It makes more tactics possible and could only add to the game.

    As for your wealth argument. The person with more money should be the one winning because obviously his strategy was better. He grabbed key points before his enemy did so that he has more gold and can become stronger. The other players can attack and a battle arises. At this point all armies are equally strong. The winner (person with the better tactics and use of monsters) wins and gets access to the gold and can become stronger in order to kill his enemy once and for all.
    If you are simply going to stay idle and let your enemy harvest all the gold he wants then you are doing something wrong.

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