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Thread: Lightning Spell (keeper not creature) - Should it be nerfed?

  
  1. #11
    Beetle
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    Default Re: Lightning Spell (keeper not creature) - Should it be nerfed?

    I disagree 100%

    I want DL's patch to be included into the game because it improves gameplay. It doesn't make the game more easy.

    It's a simple fact Lightning is horribly overpowered. Anything except Bile Demons, Horned Reaper, Knight, Avatar, Giant, Dragon or Avatar take insane amounts of damage.

    I want Lightning to be used bot not te be a game ender like that.

  2. #12
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lightning Spell (keeper not creature) - Should it be nerfed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skyman View Post
    I want DL's patch to be included into the game because it improves gameplay. It doesn't make the game more easy.
    It's called a "patch"?

    DL's patch is based off of things he thinks are more balanced. And he is not perfect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skyman View Post
    It's a simple fact Lightning is horribly overpowered. Anything except Bile Demons, Horned Reaper, Knight, Avatar, Giant, Dragon or Avatar take insane amounts of damage.
    Erm... you forgot the Barbarian. Giants have less Health and less Armor than them, they can't take too many hits from Lightning. Bile Demon takes a lot of damage from Lightning too, so what are you talking about? Bile Demons have pretty low armor.
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  3. #13
    Beetle
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    Default Re: Lightning Spell (keeper not creature) - Should it be nerfed?

    I never said DL is perfect bro, I just agree with his views on gameplay most of the time

    Bile Demons have low armor but very high health

  4. #14
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lightning Spell (keeper not creature) - Should it be nerfed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skyman View Post
    Bile Demons have low armor but very high health
    And therefore he'll take a lot of damage, and will get killed faster than a Dragon. You listed him in groups that won't take an insane amount of damage.
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  5. #15
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    Default Re: Lightning Spell (keeper not creature) - Should it be nerfed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skyman View Post
    I disagree 100%

    I want DL's patch to be included into the game because it improves gameplay. It doesn't make the game more easy.
    I think it doesn't improve gameplay. I think it removes the gameplay as it was meant to be.

    It's a simple fact Lightning is horribly overpowered. Anything except Bile Demons, Horned Reaper, Knight, Avatar, Giant, Dragon or Avatar take insane amounts of damage.
    As I said, it's only "Overpowered" when you have tons of gold and even then it's still up to you to use the spell or not. So basically you want someone else to stop you from spamming the spell?

    I want Lightning to be used bot not te be a game ender like that.
    For what do you want to use Lightning then? If you make it weaker and cheaper it becomes useless or people start to spam it even more. If you make it more expensive it again becomes useless cause it's too expensive and if you make it stronger and more expensive it's too overpowered again..

    Lightning becomes imbalanced when the map has:

    -Easy gem acces
    -Easy map exloration
    -A lot of Heroes/AI Keeper creatures

    If you cross out the gems or the exploration (no Sight of Evil, No Conseal or creatures with Sight to counter them) it's much harder to use the spell.

    Is Speed + Conseal on an Imp also overpowered btw? You can kill a Keeper/ with 100 level 10 creatures without even going to battle. Or is that just 'a way of playing' ?

  6. #16
    Beetle
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    Default Re: Lightning Spell (keeper not creature) - Should it be nerfed?

    Surely it is possible to tweak this spell

    Bullfrog never tweaked balance after reelase.

    Imagine blizzard releasing Starcraft Broodwar without ever patching it. Would it then be stupid if fans make patches to build on the initial release? No game is perfect when there are no continuous patches to be released.

    I get what you mean about the gold but getting 3000 or 9000 (for 3 blasts) is really ez, even without gems. When Archers or low tier enemies attack me and I click lightning 3 times, is it fair that 9000 gold kills whole armies. that is what I'm trying to point out.

    Making Lightning a bit weaker doesn't harm gameplay.

    =-==-=-


    One thing I agree on with you is that the patch of Keeper FX doesn't necesarilly mean it is what people want. Perhaps there should be an option on the installer where you can choose to install the custom files or the original. I cannot judge what your taste or opinion is because it is yours

  7. #17
    Ghost
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    Default Re: Lightning Spell (keeper not creature) - Should it be nerfed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skyman View Post
    Surely it is possible to tweak this spell

    Bullfrog never tweaked balance after reelase.

    Imagine blizzard releasing Starcraft Broodwar without ever patching it. Would it then be stupid if fans make patches to build on the initial release? No game is perfect when there are no continuous patches to be released.
    Funny that you mention Starcraft (I'm a big fan of that too ) But they balanced the game from the multiplayer point of view, the Singleplayer uses different settings, most of them are the same as the first day the game came out. Cause the AI and the maps were built around those settings.
    That's why I don't mind it that the Multiplayer from KeeperFX gets balance changes, it will ruin the game if you can wall in and lighting eachother to death. But in Singleplayer that's not the point. Than it's up to you to decide do I want a challenge or do I want to set back and buzz away.

    I get what you mean about the gold but getting 3000 or 9000 (for 3 blasts) is really ez, even without gems. When Archers or low tier enemies attack me and I click lightning 3 times, is it fair that 9000 gold kills whole armies. that is what I'm trying to point out.

    Making Lightning a bit weaker doesn't harm gameplay.
    That is true, but it's you which decides to shock them to death instead of charging into battle with your creatures. So as I said, you want the spell to be nerved so you wont use it anymore (or as much).

    One thing I agree on with you is that the patch of Keeper FX doesn't necesarilly mean it is what people want. Perhaps there should be an option on the installer where you can choose to install the custom files or the original. I cannot judge what your taste or opinion is because it is yours
    I would prefere something like that aswell. But I woud like it even more that people who want to change things, change it in their own installation or make a campaign around those changes. So they only affect that part of the game and not the full game.

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Lightning Spell (keeper not creature) - Should it be nerfed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas
    I do agree that the original DK settings should be on KeeperFX rather than DL's patch. Or rather, that there's an option to toggle between the two.

    I don't think DK is balanced enough on itself, though, which is why DL is making a patch in the first place. It just shouldn't be the only option for KeeperFX.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skyman
    One thing I agree on with you is that the patch of Keeper FX doesn't necesarilly mean it is what people want. Perhaps there should be an option on the installer where you can choose to install the custom files or the original. I cannot judge what your taste or opinion is because it is yours
    *Sigh* Yeah, I agree too, but I asked Mefisto about that. Here's our discussion:

    Quote Originally Posted by myself
    Also, I told you that you should keep the original stuff from Dungeon Keeper and Deeper Dungeons. This is because people don't seem to really appreciate the changes I brought to the game. They wanna play the game the "original and a bit bugged" way. Simply, returning like before for me: creating an unofficial patch that people could use if they wish. Chr!x even suggested to do two campaigns of the original game : one with normal stuff, and one with patched stuff. Same thing for Deeper Dungeons levels. I also slightly improved some campaigns: Ancient Keeper, Post Ancient Keeper and Evil Keeper. For these, I don't think they'd require alternative campaigns because it would take too much files. Tell me what do you think of all that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mefistotelis
    Noone will really play multiple versions of same campaign. I'm not planning publishing any duplicates. I want one version which gives best game experience. If someone prefers unmodified levels, he can get them somewhere else and replace the version in KeeperFX.

    I also won't support any idea of playing with two sets of settings (original/modified). If someone wants it, then sure - he can create such set and update if for every new version of KeeperFX, but it will be a separate download. I have enough work with one set of settings.
    So, apparently, my patch will still be used in KeeperFX. It will be up to you to bring the values by default and replace the modified levels by the original ones. And it doesn't bother me to do everything for you already and make a pack of it, it's not that hard. Afaik, there's nothing that forces you to use my stuff.

    However, I keep the idea to make further releases of my unofficial patch to be downloadable separately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skyman
    I want DL's patch to be included into the game because it improves gameplay. It doesn't make the game more easy.
    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    DL's patch is based off of things he thinks are more balanced. And he is not perfect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skyman
    I never said DL is perfect bro, I just agree with his views on gameplay most of the time
    Quote Originally Posted by krizzie
    I think it doesn't improve gameplay. I think it removes the gameplay as it was meant to be.
    Oh dear... Sure, my patch isn't perfect. But afaik, no f***ing game is perfect. By the way, MGR, some changes were ideas from you, so it's not totally me. Anyway, I already explained everything, I spent a lot of time to figure out things that could be improved. My patch was indeed made to improve gameplay and correct bugs, correct bad level design, avoiding to complete levels easily, balance the game a bit, making the game fun to play... krizzie, you said that it removes the gameplay as it was mean to be. What if the original gameplay was bugged and rushly made? Take the examples of level 18 where there's no Locate Hidden Realm crate, or some Deeper Dungeons levels where you foolishly start with the Destroy Walls spell, or some traps, rooms or creatures that aren't of the good owner, the missing Vampires in Elf's Dance, the script problems... Wanna play that bugged way? FINE!!! Just bring the original stuff back and play.

    I do my best to ensure the changes aren't too much drastic. Otherwise, if you disagree on some things, then please, PLEASE, tell them to me.

    Thanks for the understanding.
    Last edited by DragonsLover; March 31st, 2011 at 15:44.
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  9. #19
    Ghost
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    Default Re: Lightning Spell (keeper not creature) - Should it be nerfed?

    @DL

    I have absolutely no problem with the fixed levels and scripts, I have never argued about that.

    My point is the added/changed spells to creatures, changed spell/Door/Trap values. Those are personal touches and not actual fixes.

  10. #20
    Fly Trotim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lightning Spell (keeper not creature) - Should it be nerfed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krizzie View Post
    @DL

    I have absolutely no problem with the fixed levels and scripts, I have never argued about that.

    My point is the added/changed spells to creatures, changed spell/Door/Trap values. Those are personal touches and not actual fixes.
    Anything in any game is just personal touches, some turn out to be fun for many and some don't. I think people are just opposing this because they're changes - if you didn't know what the stats were like before the patch, would you still disagree with some of these? I wouldn't.

    I think people overestimate the original developers. They made a lot of mistakes and multiplayer wasn't balanced in the slightest either

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