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Thread: Vampire - DPS vs Immortality

  
  1. #1

    Question Vampire - DPS vs Immortality

    I used to like Vampire a lot in 1998 or so when I was first playing DK1 back as a kid, mainly cuz I thought Vampires were awesomely hawt creatures.

    However, the Vampire DPS really sucks as compared to Dark Mistress, who with Haste + Drain alone does x2 damage, only she also has Lightning added to the Mix. She's obtainable earlier on, doesn't involve complications of dead bodies, and is much cheaper.

    So, what are we paying for? Sure Immortality is awesome, but isn't it a relatively useless thing to have? Its not that its not good, its just that by the time you can afford to keep a few Vampires, special maps aside you probably won't be having them dying on you.

    Was thinking, would it make sense to remove Immortality / reduce it to 1 extra Life at level 10, and add Lightning to Vampire? Or simply replace Drain with Lightning (so it does more damage but slightly less survivability in its main "Moving Tank" role). Its final DPS would not be higher than a Dark Mistress with Haste, but it'd be a lot more useful.

    Edit : I can easily do this on my own installation, just wondering what other players think.

  2. #2
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vampire - DPS vs Immortality

    I say it's fine as it is. The purpose of the Vampire is not to deal massive damage like the Mistress, but basically just to survive for as long as possible. Giving the Vampire Lightning and removing his resurrection ability basically defeats his entire point and makes him a stupid Mistress-clone wannabe.

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  3. #3
    Dungeon Keeper Duke Ragereaver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vampire - DPS vs Immortality

    Immortality is exactly what makes the Vampire so worth it.


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  4. #4

    Default Re: Vampire - DPS vs Immortality

    Great to hear what others think I guess I won't change a thing then for New Maps
    Last edited by Zyraen; June 1st, 2011 at 03:41.

  5. #5
    Dragon DragonsLover's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vampire - DPS vs Immortality

    Replacing Drain with Lightning??? Where's the logistic? Everybody knows that Vampires drain blood and life force from their victims. If there's a spell the Vampire should absolutely get, it's obviously the Drain spell.

    As for Immortality, I think it's okay the way it is.

    Btw, the Mistress has been slightly nerfed to make her a bit weaker.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Vampire - DPS vs Immortality

    Wouldn't go so far as to say the Vampire *must* have Drain, mainly because it looks so lackluster, and so many creatures have it (Monks, Fairies too I think).
    If anything, I think Vampires exude Power. Word of Power would be great if it actually did Damage, and even Skeletons have Lightning, which (along with tonne of other spells) are powerful.

    Alternatively, I suppose Vampires could be given some slightly altered AI so that in an advantageous situation, they could use Melee to Strike and they do have a decent Strength. Whereas in a big fight they'd do the usual.

    I've never fully understood how "Fear" works in DK1, perhaps a high Fear Value and preference for Melee?

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Vampire - DPS vs Immortality

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyraen View Post
    Wouldn't go so far as to say the Vampire *must* have Drain, mainly because it looks so lackluster, and so many creatures have it (Monks, Fairies too I think).
    You're worrying too much about how much damage the Vampire does, and since it doesn't do much damage, you're just considering it to be useless. The Vampire isn't meant to do damage, he's supposed to be kind of like a tank unit.

    Drain is a bit of a "must" because it helps the Vampire keep himself alive. Look at his spell set. He has Heal, Drain, and Protect which make him harder to kill, and he has Slow, Whirlwind, and Word of Power (knock-back effect) which are all spells that can give enemies a hard time when it comes to fighting him. To top it off, he has a lot of health (800) and can resurrect. It is clear that he is a defensive, and not an offensive unit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyraen View Post
    If anything, I think Vampires exude Power. Word of Power would be great if it actually did Damage, and even Skeletons have Lightning, which (along with tonne of other spells) are powerful.
    Word of Power is supposed to do damage, actually. It is a bug in the original DK1 that was fixed in KeeperFX.

    Skeletons have Lightning because it fits their unit type. It doesn't fit a Vampire's unit type at all, and it makes him easier to kill because he won't be able to recover his Health as much as before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyraen View Post
    Alternatively, I suppose Vampires could be given some slightly altered AI so that in an advantageous situation, they could use Melee to Strike and they do have a decent Strength. Whereas in a big fight they'd do the usual.
    No, I think it would be a bad idea. Try modifying the Vampire as it is and set him to be a "Melee" fighter, and see how much easier he will die. Vampires, like all support units, will use Melee when an enemy gets close to them but then they'll back away immediately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyraen View Post
    I've never fully understood how "Fear" works in DK1, perhaps a high Fear Value and preference for Melee?
    Well if you didn't fully understand how Fear works in DK1, you probably shouldn't be making a suggestion for a new Fear stat for a Creature.

    In DK1, you can tell your Creatures to flee from battle. They'll only run away once they have low Health. How low their health must be before they run away depends on their Fear value. The lower it is, the lower their health will need to be before they try to escape. Setting it to 0 means they'll never run away. Setting it to 255, like the Imp, means it will run away as soon as it sees combat. Most Creatures have it set to either 30, 10, or 0.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Replacing Drain with Lightning??? Where's the logistic? Everybody knows that Vampires drain blood and life force from their victims. If there's a spell the Vampire should absolutely get, it's obviously the Drain spell.
    Well, I think when creating a game, we can throw logic out the window most of the time. The real important reason to keep the Drain spell on the Vampire is that it is perfectly fitting for him as a Unit.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Btw, the Mistress has been slightly nerfed to make her a bit weaker.
    Out of curiousity, what did you do to her? I forgot what the changes were in your latest patch. Though perhaps it is best to PM me if you wish to answer instead of replying here.
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  8. #8
    Dragon DragonsLover's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vampire - DPS vs Immortality

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Word of Power is supposed to do damage, actually. It is a bug in the original DK1 that was fixed in KeeperFX.
    Not when he's flying. He must be on ground to actually push and damage surrounding creatures (which may happens sometimes). Something that should be fixed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyraen
    and even Skeletons have Lightning, which (along with tonne of other spells) are powerful.
    Skeletons have to avoid them to be dancing around the battle field when the 6 or 8 first of them are fighting. Since skeletons can be created a lot of times, they need a ranged attack. is the one that fits best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyraen
    I've never fully understood how "Fear" works in DK1, perhaps a high Fear Value and preference for Melee?
    Fear works in combination with "Flee" option. When flee is on and the creature's health percentage goes below the "Fear" value set, the creature will stop fighting and flee away.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Well, I think when creating a game, we can throw logic out the window most of the time. The real important reason to keep the Drain spell on the Vampire is that it is perfectly fitting for him as a Unit.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Out of curiousity, what did you do to her? I forgot what the changes were in your latest patch. Though perhaps it is best to PM me if you wish to answer instead of replying here.
    Very simple. I can say it in one line : I simply removed her spell. That's all. I did alter her speed previously, but I judged it was better to leave it by default.
    Last edited by DragonsLover; June 1st, 2011 at 21:15.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Vampire - DPS vs Immortality

    MGR
    - thanks for the note on Fear
    - yes I have ran a Vampire into Melee before. he does OK until enemies start landing hits, usually when there are many since he has High Defence but low Armor. and Freeze often obliterates him (as do Fairies that are not being targeted by someone else and you don't have Keeper Lightning or Cave In)
    - I consider the Vampire to be a unique type of Tank, mainly as an anti-Tank, because he moves away yet practically never dies, he acts as a Kiter, drawing enemy Tanks into my territory and sometimes letting me easily pick off the Ranged Units. In a head-on Karimar fight (the triangle area full of traps where the Reaper and Destroy Walls is), he kited 4-5 level 10 Dragons for a long time (at least 1-2 rounds, Dragons aren't fast) over the Lava while the rest of my army killed all the Orcs and Warlocks... amazing

    Dragonslover
    - no wonder the Monk 10 does so much damage now... and that also explains why my Vampires never seem to do much WoP damage (not that they did in the original DK, but anyway...)
    - about the Dark Mistress, removing Haste does sound a bit harsh. It halves both DPS and Evasive Ability... Then again, in Dixaroc my level 8 Dark Mistresses killed level 6 Knights without barely getting scratched (and only because of corners)
    - Taking away Drain alone might be better, it never felt quite right with her. "AHAHAHA!" lame zippy-sounding beam of light red.. as opposed to bright white KaBooBooBooBoom...

    Now that I think about it, Drain does sounds a little like a Star Wars lazer or something, lol.
    Last edited by Zyraen; June 2nd, 2011 at 04:02.

  10. #10
    Dragon DragonsLover's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vampire - DPS vs Immortality

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyraen
    - about the Dark Mistress, removing Haste does sound a bit harsh. It halves both DPS and Evasive Ability... Then again, in Dixaroc my level 8 Dark Mistresses killed level 6 Knights without barely getting scratched (and only because of corners)
    That's the goal of it. Mistresses have a deadly combination of "Ranged attack" + Lightning + Speed, making her to be almost untouchable. Trust me, even without Speed, they're still very strong, no need to double it.

    Removing Drain? Hmmm, I don't think so. Mistresses have to train to a very high level to acquire the Drain spell. Since Drain takes less time than Lightning to recharge, but also to cast, it helps them to be more efficient at ranged attacks even when their enemy is very close to them.
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