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Thread: Summon the Keeper

  
  1. #11

    Default Re: Summon the Keeper

    When something becomes abusable in certain situations, it pretty much means that it wasn't very well thought out. It becomes more of an exploit.
    Starting with the DK1 room list and building up... we get.
    - Guardpost (with Water & Lava)
    - Bridge (with Lava)
    - Prison (with Imp never-dying in room as well as the usual)
    - Torture Chamber
    - Temple (with Water & Lava & Boulder Trap & Create Imp)
    - Graveyard (with various imp killing means)
    - Scavenger Room (enemy keeper with same creatures as you)

    Spells
    - Possession (use a creature to lure an enemy into area that he cannot get out of)
    - Create Imp (with Temple) - spawn as many Imps as possible to prevent spawns and new reinforcements from occurring
    - Sight of Evil - used with Cave In and Lightning
    - Haste - double attacks of your whole army
    - Cave-In - used Sight of Evil. kill resting units after a battle, or just about anything...
    - Lightning - self-explanatory. even without Sight of Evil
    - Conceal - use best with Level 3 Imps to claim the enemy Keeper's territory out from under them.
    - Chicken - apart from the usual, pick a fight near an enemy Hatchery and Lair, Chicken full blast the 1-2 creatures you want dead, damage some beasties (especially Bile Demons). retreat and watch them kill themselves!
    - Disease - can be cast on your own creature or used with Fly
    - Vampire Sacrifice - variation of Graveyard and Disease. IF you can't research this spell, put all your Creatures in the Temple except 1-2 you want as "Messengers", Disease them and send them in.
    - Call-To-Arms - use with Teleport to constantly "set" the enemy call to arms. sometimes your creatures will even teleport to the dungeon heart

    Workshop
    - Boulder Trap
    - Lava Trap
    - Lightning Trap (if placed fill a room and kiting enemies around)
    - Trap build order - you can keep building one trap forever if you set up right

    Terrain
    - long winding, winding corridors. best used with make safe if you're expecting tunneller invasion.
    - reinforced walls

    All the above are abusable so should be scrapped?

    Edit : lol I just realised, most of the above were somehow scrapped / nerfed in DK2?

    =====================

    Combine that with a High Dexterity/Accuracy makes it a more offensive unit.
    Agreed. It is more offensive, just not a powerful offensive unit. However, since its meant to be about on par with Barbarian, perhaps reduce its Strength to simply Medium. Accuracy High is more for reduced aggravation in always missing in Possession.

    Actually, I did Besides, you'd still have to defend your main area, or mine out a new area with replacement rooms and eventually get discovered (cuz its so big). Either way, you will still want to plan.
    Why do you need replacement rooms?
    The main advantage of moving your dungeon heart from another Keeper is so that if you are invaded, they can't get to your Heart so quickly. The other main advantage is to set up a Trap Gauntlet.
    If your territory is not in danger of being taken over, then there's no need to replace rooms ; if your territory is in no danger of being attacked, why move your Dungeon Heart?

    The fact that the enemy can't destroy you Dungeon Heart is pretty much the advantage you have of hiding it. It is more like an annoying/cheap strategy to use.
    Again, I'd need at least a Lair and some Hatcheries to retain all my minions / my original power. Not to mention a separate Library, and possibly a Training Room (not required if all maxed out ) No portal, but that's not a biggie with all level 10s.

    Why do you hate scouts so much?
    Let's assume the average map has about 20% water, and if there are enemies on it I won't be digging out to it quickly. At a low Portal Max, I probably want all non-scout units first. As for scouting, I can always scout the most safe fashion by using Bridges + Imps.
    Needless to say, Scouts are useless in scouting out Tiles of Solid Dirt, since the Scouting Suggestions were deemed useless by some
    Their best use is usually when I have some big spells to research or just want to get to Torture Chamber fast... even then I rarely have the patience to get 2 Flies.

    It doesn't take that long to do the swap. All you gotta do is prepare the new location, which would take a few minutes at the most. Then cast the spell, walk over there, and then uncast it. Simple as that.

    You make it sound like it is so hard to mine some extra gold to keep your minions training while you do the very quick relocating of the Dungeon Heart.
    I agree, you're right. At medium walking speed is a few minutes max. Thanks for the heads up.

    My Researchers are usually very high level. I do know that some people constantly Research with their Level 1 Researchers, but I swap Researchers out between training and Researching, so they can Research effectively while also train quickly.
    Heh yes. I start with Warlocks at level 1, but when my dragons hit level 5, out they go. The 2 highest level Dragons occupy the library while the rest carry on. I don't generally train warlocks unless I planned to need them all the way in the level, since with low Portal Maxes I usually plan my units carefully (typically composing nothing but Dragons, Bile Demons, Mistresses. Trolls are trained for a while to get Reapers at level 9-10)

    If it doesn't work well with the lore, then I still see no reason to add it.
    I know very little about DK Lore, is there a place I can read on it? I'm trying to do a Post-Keeper campaign, where basically a new (young) Keeper returns to the land once conquered by evil, and many of the creatures are fewer in numbers and weaker (read, NERFED).

    That's a horrible example, no offense. You used both Dark Mistresses and Horned Reapers in your example for your Brute Force Strategy, yet both of them are quite overpowered.
    Lol sorry I was confusing. A brute force is when I fight the Keeper normally, my monsters fight his monsters, cast spells blah blah... the dust settles I claim his rooms, including his library. The "backdoor" was a fight on one side while Possessing a fast moving high-level monster to his Dungeon Heart (franky, a Horned Reaper is really OP since he's a 2-in-1. He can start a fight on his own, win it if he wanted to, or just wait for Enemy CtA, then go to the Dungeon Heart) If I have Destroy Walls and the level allows, I usually skip the Possession and drop them right at his Heart. Orcs are also good candidates, especially since like Mistresses they get to level 10 quickly.

    That still wouldn't quite function the same way.
    Hmm, quite right. Not sure how to fix this unless you confirm that the Hero Keeper has a Dungeon Heart. Then nothing wrong with turning the Heart into an Avatar, lol, it would be identical.
    Last edited by Zyraen; June 15th, 2011 at 09:34.
    Dungeon Keeper 1 / Deeper Dungeons Fan
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  2. #12

    Default Re: Summon the Keeper

    Damm i swear in god that i though of posting a simillar idie to this,

    my idie is to make this spell avalabile only after a keeper looses its dungeon heart,after his minions have failled at protecting his heart the keeper shell come down to the underworld and take care of things by himself!

    the call to arms spell at keeper possession will allso erase the pathetic idie of minions simply,"end their service" at you dungeon after your defeat,this will force them to fight for their lost dungeon. i sugjest that after a long period of time,after the keeper have slayed the waves of heros trying to guard their conquered dungeon,the keeper shold be able to rebuild his lost dungeon heart,thus regain control.

    (i will like to make my own post about this subject,were i shold post my best idies there.)

  3. #13
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Summon the Keeper

    No plz.

    The point of the entire series is you being an evil non-physical entity who controls creatures to rule the planet. Making him have a physical form defeats the entire point of everything.

    The Awakening


  4. #14
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Summon the Keeper

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyraen View Post
    Starting with the DK1 room list and building up... we get.
    - Guardpost (with Water & Lava)
    - Bridge (with Lava)
    - Prison (with Imp never-dying in room as well as the usual)
    - Torture Chamber
    - Temple (with Water & Lava & Boulder Trap & Create Imp)
    - Graveyard (with various imp killing means)
    - Scavenger Room (enemy keeper with same creatures as you)

    Spells
    - Possession (use a creature to lure an enemy into area that he cannot get out of)
    - Create Imp (with Temple) - spawn as many Imps as possible to prevent spawns and new reinforcements from occurring
    - Sight of Evil - used with Cave In and Lightning
    - Haste - double attacks of your whole army
    - Cave-In - used Sight of Evil. kill resting units after a battle, or just about anything...
    - Lightning - self-explanatory. even without Sight of Evil
    - Conceal - use best with Level 3 Imps to claim the enemy Keeper's territory out from under them.
    - Chicken - apart from the usual, pick a fight near an enemy Hatchery and Lair, Chicken full blast the 1-2 creatures you want dead, damage some beasties (especially Bile Demons). retreat and watch them kill themselves!
    - Disease - can be cast on your own creature or used with Fly
    - Vampire Sacrifice - variation of Graveyard and Disease. IF you can't research this spell, put all your Creatures in the Temple except 1-2 you want as "Messengers", Disease them and send them in.
    - Call-To-Arms - use with Teleport to constantly "set" the enemy call to arms. sometimes your creatures will even teleport to the dungeon heart

    Workshop
    - Boulder Trap
    - Lava Trap
    - Lightning Trap (if placed fill a room and kiting enemies around)
    - Trap build order - you can keep building one trap forever if you set up right

    Terrain
    - long winding, winding corridors. best used with make safe if you're expecting tunneller invasion.
    - reinforced walls

    All the above are abusable so should be scrapped?

    Edit : lol I just realised, most of the above were somehow scrapped / nerfed in DK2?
    Indeed they were, because they were abusable exploits. Do you think Bullfrog honestly intended the Player to be capable of stopping invaders from entering their Dungeon by building a Guard Post next to water? Most/All of what you stated are abusable tactics that appeared because Bullfrog didn't think everything through enough. (It should be noted that you were wrong about the Disease spell, since you can't cast it on your own units)

    They need adjustments, not be scrapped entirely. Problem with your idea is it doesn't even fit in with Dungeon Keeper, as I've been saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyraen View Post
    The main advantage of moving your dungeon heart from another Keeper is so that if you are invaded, they can't get to your Heart so quickly. The other main advantage is to set up a Trap Gauntlet.
    If your territory is not in danger of being taken over, then there's no need to replace rooms ; if your territory is in no danger of being attacked, why move your Dungeon Heart?


    Again, I'd need at least a Lair and some Hatcheries to retain all my minions / my original power. Not to mention a separate Library, and possibly a Training Room (not required if all maxed out ) No portal, but that's not a biggie with all level 10s.
    You only need to build separate rooms if your first Dungeon gets taken over. And even if, you can still take it back secretly while the enemy's looking for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyraen View Post
    Let's assume the average map has about 20% water, and if there are enemies on it I won't be digging out to it quickly. At a low Portal Max, I probably want all non-scout units first. As for scouting, I can always scout the most safe fashion by using Bridges + Imps.
    Needless to say, Scouts are useless in scouting out Tiles of Solid Dirt, since the Scouting Suggestions were deemed useless by some
    Their best use is usually when I have some big spells to research or just want to get to Torture Chamber fast... even then I rarely have the patience to get 2 Flies.
    Unless you memorize every single tile on every single map, you'll need a scout if you open up your dungeon in order to scout the area and prevent yourself from opening up your dungeon again. Also, using Bridges + Imps takes time and money, both which can be better spent.

    Also, do remember that there are maps that have an excess of water and lava, and a scout would really be needed in said map. You can't really measure how useful a Scout is by "the average map", because a Scout's use is dependant on the map itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyraen View Post
    Heh yes. I start with Warlocks at level 1, but when my dragons hit level 5, out they go. The 2 highest level Dragons occupy the library while the rest carry on. I don't generally train warlocks unless I planned to need them all the way in the level,
    Warlocks are effective Support Units. If Dark Mistresses weren't so broken, they'd be better than them in some/most situations. In WftO, I can assure you that with a non-broken Dark Mistress, and a Warlock that can heal Allies as well as efficently support them with Fire, you're going to be regretting throwing that Warlock down the Portal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyraen View Post
    since with low Portal Maxes I usually plan my units carefully (typically composing nothing but Dragons, Bile Demons, Mistresses. Trolls are trained for a while to get Reapers at level 9-10)
    Your "strategies" seem to involve broken units in mass numbers combined with abusing certain tactics/exploits in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyraen View Post
    I know very little about DK Lore, is there a place I can read on it? I'm trying to do a Post-Keeper campaign, where basically a new (young) Keeper returns to the land once conquered by evil, and many of the creatures are fewer in numbers and weaker (read, NERFED).
    Not really. DK1 didn't have much going for it in terms of story. DK2 was more involved with the story, but we're not going to relate to that game. Most if not all the lore WftO has is created by me, and I haven't released any information aside from the very small details I provided earlier in the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyraen View Post
    Lol sorry I was confusing. A brute force is when I fight the Keeper normally, my monsters fight his monsters, cast spells blah blah... the dust settles I claim his rooms, including his library. The "backdoor" was a fight on one side while Possessing a fast moving high-level monster to his Dungeon Heart (franky, a Horned Reaper is really OP since he's a 2-in-1. He can start a fight on his own, win it if he wanted to, or just wait for Enemy CtA, then go to the Dungeon Heart) If I have Destroy Walls and the level allows, I usually skip the Possession and drop them right at his Heart. Orcs are also good candidates, especially since like Mistresses they get to level 10 quickly.
    I know what Brute Force is, but clearly you missed my point yet again.

    You use a lot of overpowered units. That's pretty much why you're winning with brute force, because you have an overpowered army. If we tweak said units so they're not so overpowered, (yet not nerfed to the point of uselessness) then your Brute Force strategies are likely to get yourself killed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyraen View Post
    Hmm, quite right. Not sure how to fix this unless you confirm that the Hero Keeper has a Dungeon Heart. Then nothing wrong with turning the Heart into an Avatar, lol, it would be identical.
    It would still be a problem with the lore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    No plz.

    The point of the entire series is you being an evil non-physical entity who controls creatures to rule the planet. Making him have a physical form defeats the entire point of everything.
    This is exactly what I was trying to get through to him in how it is bad for the lore. Ignoring all the flaws it has as a spell, it still shouldn't be included for that very reason.
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  5. #15

    Default Re: Summon the Keeper

    No plz.

    The point of the entire series is you being an evil non-physical entity who controls creatures to rule the planet. Making him have a physical form defeats the entire point of everything.
    This is exactly what I was trying to get through to him in how it is bad for the lore. Ignoring all the flaws it has as a spell, it still shouldn't be included for that very reason.
    Hmm ok, noted the idea doesn't fit

    Warlocks are effective Support Units.
    I totally agree.
    Trained Warlocks do have a very irritating trait of blasting other people in the library, including temporary researchers (those who come in through the Portal, have Research Value of 2 or more, I don't want to train up but I have yet to reach my Portal Max and Payday is not yet here) and imps passing through, though. If I'm not up against an enemy Keeper opponent, I generally toss them because there's a lot of Heroes (Wizards, Priestess, Knights, Dwarves, Fairies) with Rebound.
    If I train a Warlock (usually I keep 2-4 where I elect to), I generally keep him training until he's level 10 and leave the mid-high level Dragons to research, since Warlocks train a lot more slowly than dragons.

    IMO, against non-Rebound opponents in DK1, Warlocks still do equal or more DPS than Mistresses. Their high DPS is a REAL pain against themselves, though... I gave them Rebound in the Tweaked Keeper Campaign just to make them more surviveable (against their own shots for most part, ironically).

    You use a lot of overpowered units.
    Indeed. My Grouse with DK1 is that Dragons and Bile Demons are available right from the get-go!!
    I don't even feel excited when a Dragon comes in the Portal, but I do sometimes cheer for a Mistress.
    Besides, if the unit is OP and easily obtainable, then the game design could be better.
    I'm trying to make Vampires, Dragons, Mistresses "premium" by making them in fewer numbers, your shock troops will probably still have to be lesser units.
    So far, the Mistresses have done decently even without Haste on them, and Warlocks pull their weight, just have to watch them carefully against Knights (not high level enough to get Rebound yet...)

    Your "strategies" seem to involve broken units in mass numbers combined with abusing certain tactics/exploits in the game.
    Actually, shall we make another thread for non-exploit Strategies? I'm very curious what a pro DK player has up his sleeve

    ---------- Post added at 10:32 ---------- Previous post was at 09:52 ----------

    MGR - I just made a thread for non-exploit Strategies
    http://keeperklan.com/threads/2060-Y...2847#post32847

    You probably seen this thread before, as well. Since you posted on it with 1 strategy - concealed imps.
    http://keeperklan.com/threads/1140-M...yer-Strategies
    Last edited by Zyraen; June 16th, 2011 at 02:34.
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  6. #16
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Summon the Keeper

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyraen View Post
    [/COLOR]MGR - I just made a thread for non-exploit Strategies
    http://keeperklan.com/threads/2060-Y...2847#post32847

    You probably seen this thread before, as well. Since you posted on it with 1 strategy - concealed imps.
    http://keeperklan.com/threads/1140-M...yer-Strategies
    You don't need to make a post pointing me to the thread, I can see it very easily.
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  7. #17
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    Default Re: Summon the Keeper

    I thought it was interesting until I read that it made the heart into a creature.
    Relocate dungeon heart is interesting, simply because it's /implied/ that it is moved when you're not in levels -- either that or you have two dozen hearts and can never truly die.


    Oh well!
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  8. #18
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Summon the Keeper

    Quote Originally Posted by james.heinichen View Post
    I thought it was interesting until I read that it made the heart into a creature.
    Relocate dungeon heart is interesting, simply because it's /implied/ that it is moved when you're not in levels -- either that or you have two dozen hearts and can never truly die.


    Oh well!
    It does take quite a while to move the Dungeon Heart, it isn't something that can be done in the middle of a battle.
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  9. #19

    Default Re: Summon the Keeper

    Relocate dungeon heart is interesting, simply because it's /implied/ that it is moved when you're not in levels -- either that or you have two dozen hearts and can never truly die.
    You know, that is a truly Amazing thought
    Notice the losing message is "You have been Defeated!" not "You have been killed!" or "You are Dead!"

    (I've been hearing that a lot recently, when I first started playing around with Campaigns, and most often when I forget to change the Map number in the [ ] square brackets )
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  10. #20
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Summon the Keeper

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyraen View Post
    You know, that is a truly Amazing thought
    Notice the losing message is "You have been Defeated!" not "You have been killed!" or "You are Dead!"

    (I've been hearing that a lot recently, when I first started playing around with Campaigns, and most often when I forget to change the Map number in the [ ] square brackets )
    I think if a Troll is defeated in battle, he's pretty much dead.
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