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Thread: Creatures Limit

  
  1. #1
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    Default Creatures Limit

    Hi,

    Just so you know I am not talking about portal limit.

    The game has a max creature limit of 255 creatures in any level, existing also in the original game that the programmers set.

    Imps also count towards the limit.

    So one player or even all four players could simply sacrifice imps in the portal to make them very cheap.

    If they plan it correctly, they could block all other players from getting any creatures.

    They could mess up and make their imps cost to much, but it's still possible to do it.

    Once the max limit has reached, no more creatures will come out of the portals for anyone.

    In a multiplayer game you could have 4 players playing all at once.

    Most portals might give each player around 22 or so creatures in the portal.

    22 x 4 = 88 approx.

    They could use the glitch to get unlimited skeletons and vampires also effects the max creature limit, if it's really a glitch or not, also getting them the normal way by killing the enemy and such.

    167 Imps / 4 = 41 imps per player after that, or less if they got some Skeletons and Vampires.


    So what do you think about increasing the max creature limit for multiplayer games, as it's fixed to 255, which is 1 byte long?

    Not sure how complex it would be to make it 2 bytes long.

    One could create a jump in the code if there was not enough room to make a jump to your own code, code injection, with the creature limit then forced to use a 2 byte long value.

    The host of the room should be able to set this creature limit in multiplayer games, and not sure if one can edit a text file to change that or not as have not checked.

    Some people could use this trick in a multiplayer game to use up the max limit to stop someone from getting more or any creatures, leaving them defenseless if they are fast at playing the game, then it could become wars to who can get to the max limit 1st then battle it out.


    Anyways this is just my idea if multiplayer ever gets very popular with KeeperFX and faster over the internet.
    Last edited by Replica; June 29th, 2011 at 10:55.

  2. #2
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Creatures Limit

    It's not just multiplayer where removing/increasing the limit would help. It would also be very useful for single player, too.

    From what I have heard it isn't easily feasible, though, so we will have to wait.

    The Awakening


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Creatures Limit

    Also wondering why it was 255.

    Maybe in the old days peoples computers where much slower.

  4. #4
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Creatures Limit

    Keeping track of 255 creatures constantly at 20fps did probably require quite a bit of processing power back in the days. Maybe the engine itself can't handle over 255 creatures before running out of memory.

    The Awakening


  5. #5
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    Default Re: Creatures Limit

    Some months ago I proposed to not have a fixed number of creatures limit, to have dynamic memory (that is, to reserve memory when it is required while there is free memory in our PC, current PCs have a lot of memory), but this requires I think a lot of code changes and core changes... Also the more creatures, the more processing, so this is needed to be tested before, doing benchmarks and this kind of things to test performance. Also, more creatures requires biggest levels = modify the slabs limit (another code change)....... So this imply also a redesign of the levels... It is a very hard change I think... mefistotelis can say.

  6. #6
    Dragon DragonsLover's Avatar
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    Default Re: Creatures Limit

    And not only that, more creatures means more things to reserve in memory so that, you'd have to also increase the things limit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Replica
    So one player or even all four players could simply sacrifice imps in the portal to make them very cheap.
    They could use the glitch to get unlimited skeletons and vampires also effects the max creature limit, if it's really a glitch or not, also getting them the normal way by killing the enemy and such.
    And how about if that would be impossible? Imps wouldn't count anymore to be Graveyard feeder and we could remove the temple sacrifice. Also, how about simply to give a max limit of imps for players through a commandline for example?
    I like dragons! They're the center of my life! I'll never forget them...



  7. #7
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    Default Re: Creatures Limit

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    And how about if that would be impossible? Imps wouldn't count anymore to be Graveyard feeder and we could remove the temple sacrifice. Also, how about simply to give a max limit of imps for players through a commandline for example?
    Might not be good to change the game to much cause it would effect strategy's, and maybe only bug fixes are most important and multiplayer 1st I would reckon, but anyone could create a mod if they wanted for that :-).

    I just worry it might become to hard to get vamps.

    A commandline to limit the imps for each keeper might be a good idea.

    About removing the temple sacrifice, I think was mostly part of the game this one.

    Some players really need imps depending on the map, they might need allot of them to quickly horde loads of gold before the other keeper does for example.

    The other keeper has the same advantages anyway.

    Vampires, don't forget they cost allot on payday, some maps you have to go with basic fighting creatures as they are cheaper, like Skeletons and Orcs, Mistresses, your favorite I bet is Dragons, can maybe tell by your avatar heh.

    I guess maps with loads of Gems, will mean they could possibly use more expensive creatures.

    Some maps require you to fight for the Gems in the middle etc.

    I know there is a way to kill your own imps to get lots of Vampires/Skeletons with certain creatures and possibly another way, this maybe could be fixed or not, just depends on if it's a glitch that gives a bit to much advantage or not, this builds up towards the creature limit too.

    When killing the enemy Keeper, it can be hard to drag the imps to the Graveyard if they didn't die on your own claimed land, and other creatures that can be dragged.

    Scavenger room + Temple + Prison + Gold can have great effects in stealing creatures also or keeping them from the other Keeper.

    So it could be Scavenger wars.

    And Armageddon cost plus the other spell to call your creatures back safely, until one runs out of gold, they need allot of imps to keep up with the pressure the other keepers put on them and keeping costs down.

    Break walls spell to break your way into someone's protected Dungeon's etc.


    Removing the imps being a Graveyard feeder, would not know without testing it much, it could mean it could get to hard to get Vamps, but maybe removing the imps that where killed by your own creatures, then being a Graveyard feeder, might work better and safer if they were made not to be a Graveyard feeder if killed by your own, like possession, which only works with certain spells on creatures etc, this way it won't build up to the max 255 limit even if imps were limited, one can still do this.

    It's just the creature limit that could have an impact and maybe the glitch of killing your own creatures, then counting it as a corpse for the Graveyard, especially imps.

    Even though all players can do the same things, one can't do anything about it when the max 255 creatures are used up by another keeper, especially on purpose :-).

    It can be quite complex I see.
    Last edited by Replica; June 29th, 2011 at 15:33.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Creatures Limit

    Wouldn't be good to change the game much cause it would effect strategy's, and maybe only bug fixes are most important and multiplayer 1st I would reckon, but anyone could create a mod if they wanted for that :-).
    I am amidst creating a "Remake" of DK based on the parameters you mentioned above.

    Basically, the areas "fixed" are
    - Imp Sacrifice no longer works. You can still make more imps but you pay for it. Imps have been changed to increase level at a faster rate.
    - Guardpost, Prison is generally unavailable now
    - Temple is claimable but not buildable. It becomes a "unique" building, usually located in an open, contested area. (Temple functions like Guardpost cutting off water, and can bounce boulders around). You have only a few creatures (about 20), so the Temple becomes an asset to upgrade your creatures to better ones, not just the Reaper. Because premium creatures are few.
    - Scavenger Rooms are generally unavailable. Even if they are, Enemy Keepers use Heroes and not your minions (generally speaking). They are used by the enemy Hero Keepers to "scavenge" White Heroes to their cause.
    - For OP-ness, Lightning, Cave In, Speed, Conceal (for imp claiming exploit), Chicken, Disease, Armageddon, Destroy Walls have generally been removed. Magic.cfg has been edited to make Enemy Keeper's lightning (which they cheat even if they can't research it) useless. Some maps allow you to gain some of these spells, but generally for specific purposes or simply because your enemy has it. Even then, Lightning, Cave In and Disease are generally OUT.
    - For uselessness, Hold Audience, Must Obey have been removed.
    - For OP-nes, Boulder and Lava Traps are generally not buildable
    - Magic Doors are not generally buildable. All other Traps / Doors sell for 10 gold, so you build them when you want them, not for gold.
    - For uselessness, Braced Doors (Wooden doors to arrange your Dungeon, Steel Doors for general use) and Alarm Traps are generally not buildable.
    - Most Maps give you a limited amount of Gold, and claiming the Gem means you have to first fight off some monsters. This same area usually connects to Enemy Keepers so you can't reinforce them out of your dungeon, and may also pave the way for hero spawns to invade your dungeon.
    - Many Creatures have been rebalanced, notably the Horned Reaper and Vampire. Regular Creatures are generally 8 per level, except Trolls are 4 and premium creatures like Dragons, Dark Mistresses, Vampires come later in the game and there are only 2 of each "premium" creature. Creatures that are killed or dropped into the portal do not return.
    - Hero Creatures have also been tweaked.
    - Enemy Hero Keepers are naturally allied to Heroes (white player)
    - generally speaking, most Hero Invasion routes do not pass over Lava, so you can't stop them / trap them there.

    For more info
    http://keeperklan.com/threads/1994-T...3957#post33957
    Last edited by Zyraen; June 29th, 2011 at 15:51.
    Dungeon Keeper 1 / Deeper Dungeons Fan
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    I'm Chinese, so please try and spell better than me...

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Creatures Limit

    Must obey is useful for training creatures I believe.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Creatures Limit

    Really? What's the effectiveness of it? 20% improvement?
    Maybe I should include that one back in.

    Actually, I'll just run a game and test it out learning new stuff...
    Dungeon Keeper 1 / Deeper Dungeons Fan
    No intention to play DK2

    I'm Chinese, so please try and spell better than me...

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