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Thread: Iron

  
  1. #1
    Your Majesty Hapuga's Avatar
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    Default Iron

    Iron! It's simple. We dig Iron to improve weapons and armor of our minions! I'm afraid this will make some extra work for our dear 3d designers, but in overall, whaddaya think?

    This would work like this:

    you mine iron. Then depending on how much iron you have, you can adjust the number of updates made. each creature will have 2 upgrades, an armour and weapon upgrade.

    Say, to upgrade 1 goblin armour you need 100 iron. you Have 10 goblins, so if you have 1000 iron, you can purchase 10 upgrades. You cannot however purchase more upgrades then the number of creatures for whom the upgrade is supposed to be made.

    If the creature dies/leaves while the upgrade is being manufactured, the number of "to be manufactured" items decrease automatically. If the creature dies/leaves when the upgrade has been created, the upgrade will disappear, restoring some mana as a refund.

    The armor value will adjust depending on the creature level, so no additional calculations would be needed. If the creature's level 1 armor value is, say, 100, then with armor it would be 130. Lets suppose, that with each level creature gets 15% additional percent of armor. So for unarmored creature on level 2 it will be 115 and for an armored one - 149.5. This will be calculated through all levels. So if you have a level 6 creature upgraded, you DO NOT count from the current level, but do the calculations from level 1 to 6. So for goblin lvl 6 it would be: 130(1+.15)^6 = 300.7
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Iron

    I say, no refunds. That is the risk associated with giving armor to creatures. It also gives the workshop more work to do, which is in my eyes a downfall, they'll be over burdened. Especially since I am a door a holic. I seriously put unnecessary amounts of doors everywhere.

    On the otherhand, as a nice little buff it's not too shabby.

    In regards to an additional resource however. I disagree, I prefer DK2's style of doing things. Keeping it simple.

    We could go two ways about developing the armor.

    Option 1:
    Armor is less powerful, but is applied instantly once researched in a library.

    Option 2:
    Armor is slightly more powerful, but is applied per creature after construction in a workshop. Also, costing some gold per piece.

    Armour leveling should be simplified to 2 stages. (Maybe 3 at a push)

    Light Armor - 100g - Adds an addition 10% damage resistance to base stats
    Heavy Armor - 300g - Adds an additional 20% damage resistance to base stats
    Very Heavy Armor - 600g - Adds an additional 30% damage resistance to base stats

    All costs stack (so in total it costs 1000g for V. Heavy Armor) the buffs do not stack, so 30% damage resistance is the highest buff.

    Of course, you might want to make a squad of say 6 goblins. In that squad you have a level 6 Goblin, and the rest are all level 3.

    You'd give the Lv6 the VH Armor and the others you might give L or H armor. This way, the Lv6 as a "commando" dealing the most damage. Whilst the others are just... expendable backup.

    I'm really split on this idea though. The more I write about it, the less I like it. But at the same time, the more I imagine it the more I like it.

    Logically it's telling me it's a bad idea, creatively it's simulating.
    Last edited by [email protected]; September 29th, 2009 at 20:35.

  3. #3
    Your Majesty Hapuga's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iron

    The reasons to implement this in my opinion:

    1. Microeconomics. Additional entity will bring a new look and new strategic elements to the game.

    2. Variety. more vivid and diverse gameplay.

    3. Necessity. I want to move from Black Nights/Dark Angels FTW concept, bringing back the needs and wants to build other rooms and train other creatures.

    You did not mention the downfall of this method. What is the "risk" you are talking about? Be specific.

    Another thing is pillaging, that is related to this. Taking armor scraps of enemy dead creatures, say, 25 iron per scrap and turning those into armour as well.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Iron

    Quote Originally Posted by Hapuga View Post
    The reasons to implement this in my opinion:

    1. Microeconomics. Additional entity will bring a new look and new strategic elements to the game.

    2. Variety. more vivid and diverse gameplay.

    3. Necessity. I want to move from Black Nights/Dark Angels FTW concept, bringing back the needs and wants to build other rooms and train other creatures.

    You did not mention the downfall of this method. What is the "risk" you are talking about? Be specific.

    Another thing is pillaging, that is related to this. Taking armor scraps of enemy dead creatures, say, 25 iron per scrap and turning those into armour as well.
    "If a creature dies/leaves you are given mana as a refund" - remove that. Because then there is a greater risk attached to it. If a creatures dies or leaves, you get nothing back.

    Of course, I like the pilaging armor scraps.

    Also, yes Dark Angles and Black Knights sucked.

  5. #5
    Your Majesty Hapuga's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iron

    Ok, probably you are right, no refund needed.
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Iron

    I like this idea. I think it has some good potential and should be implemented. Maybe I'll create my version of it as soon as I organize my ideas.
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  7. #7
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iron

    Okay, my ideas are organized.

    Iron can be obtained from certain tiles that work like gems and gold. You have your imps mine them as slowly as gems, and you only get 1000 iron. Iron will either be brought to a storage room (New room) or they can be brought to the workshop. The bigger the workshop, the better.

    This is a powerful bonus, so it should be on individual creatures. The iron should be a constant increase to creatures, not a precentage. The latter doesn't make much sense as it will increase depending on the creature's abilities. Some creatures won't be able to get these upgrades (Like knights).

    Creatures will have sizes like small, medium, large, and Xlarge (Bile Demon). The price changes upon the size as it takes more iron to make it. I don't think gold should really be involved as we are finding the iron, not buying it. When you select the creatures, you will go to the workshop panel and select the size. Highlight a creature and it will calqulate the cost (As it could really vary).

    Select it and a marker will appear over him. When the iron armor is done, the creature will pick it up after finishing his current job. Right-clicking on the iron icon will bring you to a creature with iron or waiting for the iron. Perhaps blue-prints will appear on a creature waiting for iron. You can pluck and drop them in the workshop if their iron armor is done to collect it.

    Prices of iron should be stacked because it needs more iron. Here is an example of the value bonus constants of iron armor (Let's go with DK1 stats as it has an armor value)

    Light Armor-15
    Heavy Armor-35
    V. Heavy Armor-60

    So as you can see, it is quite a bonus. Now let's go with prices.

    Size Light Armor Heavy Armor V. Heavy Armor
    Small 100 220 500
    Medium 200 450 1000
    Large 500 1100 2500
    X. Large 1000 2200 5000

    It may seem more valuable to give it to smaller creatures as there is a constant value for an increase, but a goblin with very heavy armor still won't last too long in battle, and a Bile Demon with V. Heavy Armor will get the bonus he needs to last a very long time.

    I do like the scraping idea... I don't need a chart because the amount scrapped will be 10% of the iron used to make it. Sounds fair right? This would make a nice bonus for imps, lol.

    I do think we could expand this idea to traps too, but I'm not entirely sure. Keep in mind that there may not be many iron blocks if any at all. It is up to the map maker. What do you think on the trap ideas though?
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  8. #8
    Your Majesty Hapuga's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iron

    I agree on almost all you have summed up, good job.

    1. storage at the workshop - good thought. giving WS another limit for 500 per tile or sth would work out great.

    2. dropping creatures. Hm. A bit controversial issue. This is a good idea, I am just worried about bugs. What if the creature wont take it? Like creatures sometimes dont take money on pay day or eat chickens. Well, it would be easier to have an "apply" button, to magically apply the update to the creature. The drawback is, you cant select the creature you want to upgrade. So lets hope that this works out. It also should be made that creatures cant take upgrades by themselves, I'll tell you why in a moment.

    3. I disagree a bit about sizes, not to make it confusing, guessing who wares what. I'd make it like this: you select the creature and the price changes automatically. Much simpler.

    4. Stacking bonuses? Well, I like RPG elements, so the more complicated mechanics, the happier I am =DD But how will this affect the game? This is the question.

    "It may seem more valuable to give it to smaller creatures as there is a constant value for an increase, but a goblin with very heavy armor still won't last too long in battle, and a Bile Demon with V. Heavy Armor will get the bonus he needs to last a very long time."

    No no no. This is what I fear the most, and what we have to avoid at all costs. Dont make an emphasis on some creatures, consider them all! Now we have DK/DA, then - impenetrable bile demons. I want to use all the creatures, not 2-3 the most powerful ones.

    Now, why I want to apply armour only by letting creatures do so "dropping directly". I Think about enchanting! That's right =) When you have created the upgrade, our grumpy warlocks would enchant those, to add something like fire/frost damage for weapons, and fire/frost/addwhateveryouwant resists for armor. This would be available only by warlocks.

    Wrapping up:

    What do we have? a nice system that will bring flavour in the game, making it more diverse.
    We have a comeback of two creatures (at least) - bile demon and the warlock. If we make a change that Trolls are better workers than bile demons, we have a 3 creature return!
    Last edited by Hapuga; September 30th, 2009 at 12:59.
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  9. #9
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iron

    1. Maybe the value amount increase would depend on efficiency of the room, and the amount of increases depends on something similar to the worker limit.

    2. Maybe imps could diliver?

    3. Did you mean it calulates the price but the players don't know much behind it? (Meaning the amount does vary on creatures)

    Well, with what you did a triple disagree on I think it helps. Building armor for an imp would need alot less material than a bile demon. This adds advantages. Think of it as this...

    I have 1000 iron. I want to use only light iron armor. I could create 10 goblins with light armor, or one bile demon with light armor. Now let's look at the stats for all the creatures (Not real stats, making them up)

    10 Goblins (Combined Total)
    Health: 1500
    Armor: 100
    Attack: 150

    Bile Demon
    Health: 800
    Armor: 120
    Attack: 90

    Now let's see them with armor bonuses

    10 Goblins (Combined Total)
    Health: 1500
    Armor: 250
    Attack: 150

    Bile Demon
    Health: 800
    Armor: 135
    Attack: 90

    See the huge differenace? The goblins now are going to win, but without as many casualties. This adds a good set of strategy. Maybe for possession I would pick the Bile Demon.

    4. I think it should, makes a bit of sense. You can't easily blow all of it on v. heavy armor. It makes it more expensive. Plus, if you do light than heavy, it costs more than to save up for just heavy.

    I do like your enchanting idea, but maybe that could be a whole another option. Perhaps the library has something like that, and it would prioitize it over keeper spells (Only downside). It would be a Magic Defense like in RPG games.

    Perhaps we could have a magic defense variables. Example.
    Warlock Magic Defense
    Fire: 20%
    Ice: 5%
    Thunder: 5%

    Thus it would block that percentage of magic attacks. There could even be negatives in which could increase the attack damage. That would really use some strategy.

    Now, in the library, you can only have 1 upgrade. It will be one of the magic defenses. The researchers will research it after the research the current spell. Then it will be an automatic upgrade for the creatures you selected. This would be a mana usage.

    Perhaps for absolute non-magic creatures (Black Knight because they are totally against magic) it could give a 5% increase (I mean plus 5, so if it were 0 it would be 5). Non-magic creatures (Skeleton because in dk1 they have lightning, so they have a few spells) would have 10% increase). For magic creatures, it could have a 20% increase. Maybe we could add a pure magic creature (Like fairy, creatures made from magic, the previous would just be magic users) which has a 40% increase.

    Do you think the percentage increases are too high, or too low? Consider there is one upgrade only yet it can be used for different creatures (Like 3 "fire" goblins and 2 "ice" goblins). Also consider that the real bonuses go to magic users and magic creatures who usually have low physical defenses and can be taken out by probably one hit of a giant.

    ---

    I think this idea is really good, adds alot more to Dungeon Keeper. Plus, we could probably expand this with an idea I had a while back. It is called 'variable' spells. Do you want to hear about it?
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Iron

    This is what I dislike the most.

    People get a good idea, then go how about we add, tiers to it! Nice, lets add MAGIC to it. Nice, magic armor enchantments, why don't we add UNIQUE armor per creature. You get the pattern, eventually the good idea which was pretty simple becomes bogged down and resembles nothing of the good idea and is now a mush of different things that isn't very good at all.

    A way to enterpret this:

    You have some red playdoh, you think, nice but red is pretty simple, lets add some blue to the mix and make purple. Purple is good, but I want something more, so you add some white to the mix and you get pink, someone else comes along and goes, I like pink, but I want my green mixed in too! Eventually you end up with something that resmebles the colour of puke.

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