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Thread: Trap Room

  
  1. #1
    Imp Nazgren's Avatar
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    Default Trap Room

    Name:Trap Room

    Buildability Yes

    Cost: Up to the Game developers

    Information: when built the room takes on the appeareance of a random room that you have access to. the room would no nothing for your own creatures but when captured and used by the enemy it would give there creatures reduced stats depending on what the room was a trap ofsome of the idea's that i have for rooms are below.

    Hatchery: whenever they eat a chicken they would loose health instead.
    Workshop: the traps would instead work for you, e.g the enemy player would build a cannon in his base and it would instantly become yours
    Lair: creatures do not heal and instead loose mood
    Library: research is instead gained by the player
    Training room: creatures would loos experience
    Treasury: Money deposited moves to your own treasury/dungeun heart
    Bridges: would have a trap door, causing enemy creatures that goover it to fall in and die, if that creature could normally survive in whatever the bridge is going over then they do not die.
    Prision: creatures imprisoned go back to there own dungeun heart
    torture chamber: same as prison?
    Graveyard: vampires become yours?
    Combat pit: creatures loose experience, and creatures who are beaten in the combat pit die?
    temple: restores mana to the player who built the trap and creatures that are gained as a result of the temple also go to the player who built the trap


    Function: would depend on the room that was being mimicked

    Wall Decoration: the decorations of the room that is being mimicked

    Appearance: the same appearence of the room that is being mimicked

    i realise there many be many issues with this room but i think this would be quite effective, if not overpowered. it could be made so that you build the room and you then build a device of some sort in the workshop and then build it on the room, turnig it inot a trap room. if this is too overpowered then after the trap room reaches a certain amount of uses the enemy player hears "ITS A TRAP" in a very admiral ackbar style voice XD

    constructive criticism is welcome
    {edit} sorry about the title, not suure what happened there
    Last edited by Nazgren; September 29th, 2011 at 15:20.

  2. #2
    Keeper of Keepers dotted's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trap Room

    Kinda like the idea, but I think the negative effects should be immediate not 5-10 minutes or longer after capture. Ie. treasure room could steal gold from the enemy player and then the room disappear - the room would also have to be revealable for example by sight of evil. And to make sure the room doesn't get abused the room should cost continuous mana, which has the fortunate side effect of making the room "make sense" in the world.

    But im not too sure if there is room for this suggestion, maybe in the campaign only.
    Last edited by dotted; September 29th, 2011 at 13:19.
    "The essence of religion: Fear God and obey God. The quintessence of spirituality: Love God and become another God." -- Sri Chinmoy

  3. #3
    Imp Nazgren's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trap Room

    hi,
    the effects would be immediate? [edit: just worked out what you mean by that, i think they would need to use the room before they would get any negative effects, capturing a trap hatchery and then having all your units loose health wouldent make much sense, they would need to eat the chicken...]
    revealed by sight of evil would be a must
    not sure about it costing mana, maybe to balance it your own units would use it if they have no other alternative? e.g if your lair is full or hatchery is void of chickens
    if there is any hope for the idea then im sure the developers will know how to nerf it down a bit
    Last edited by Nazgren; September 29th, 2011 at 14:03. Reason: fixed fail spelling, added to post

  4. #4
    Keeper of Keepers dotted's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trap Room

    The effects should happen when the room is captured, not when it is captured and 15 minutes later. So i suggest the room disappears when it is captured and then trigger the trap effect.
    It should cost mana not as a purchase, but as a running cost, ie 10 mana per tile or whatever, that way if you build to many you wont have the mana to do other tasks. As i mentioned the fact it would cost mana and as such lore wise the room simply has a spell on it than has this effect, it doesnt really make alot of sense to have it cost gold and be build by trolls with no mana cost because that suggests the room is mechanical and not magical.
    "The essence of religion: Fear God and obey God. The quintessence of spirituality: Love God and become another God." -- Sri Chinmoy

  5. #5
    Imp Nazgren's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trap Room

    i guess having it cost mana would be fair enough, and maybe have a limit of one room of a certain size? it wouldent be built by trolls unless the trap room trigger idea is used, it would be built on the rooms menu along with lair or hatchery. i guess we will need to wait and see what the developers think of it...

  6. #6

    Default Re: Trap Room

    I think this room is far too random. Hey, why did this guy build a 6x2 combat pit? You can't even use it! Ooohhhh. Also, if it's random, then what's up with bridges? Build it over water, and you always have a bridge?

    Here's my version. I mostly wrote it for kicks, because I think a room full of spikes that bear down on you is a staple of dungeon design in film and video games. Not sure if a room needs to fullfil this role at all, or if there are already traps, rooms or doors that fill this role.

    Name: Trap Room

    Buildability: Yes

    Cost: High

    Information: The Trap Room is a room with a high cost, late game availability. It lures in the enemy with a promise of riches, and then proceeds to slam shut on them (after a short delay). Spikes come out of the walls, floor and ceiling and trap whatever enemy creatures are in it for [number]* seconds. It does only a minimal amount of damage, but causes high threat causing most minions to flee back the way they came after release (assuming they survive). Fleeing creatures are immune. Flying creatures are immune to damage. Invisible creatures are affected. When activated, other enemy creatures can see what it is. If no enemy creatures are in sight, it reverts to the treasury disguise.

    When used, the player whose creatures sprung the trap room will hear the mentor say "It's a trap!", mimicking Admiral Ackbar.

    *I don't know what amount of time would be balanced, it would depend on testing.

    Function: Stopping scouts from scouting your dungeon, slowing down enemy intruders to allow you to prepare for their assault.

    Wall Decoration: Spikes and skeletons.

    Appearance: For the player, the room takes the appearance of a large pit full of spikes. For any opponent, the room takes the appearance of a full treasury.


  7. #7
    Vampire MeinCookie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trap Room

    Firstly I'm not being negative... not at all... merely listing problems, faults and flaws, possible improvements. I bother because I think this has real potential.

    Bridges sound OP, and you can't place most rooms over lava and water anyway so you should remove that for a start.

    A lot of functions are amazingly OP (workshop, prison, hatchery and hatchery simply to name a few) - too random, too unpredictable, too powerful. They could be toned down but that wouldn't fix it fully by a long shot. For the prison to even work it would have to leave 'ghost units' after imprisonment. This suggestion hasn't been particularly well though out or analysed in its creation in terms of basic gameplay or balance. When it comes down to it, gameplay is what matters and it is unworkable.


    My Feelings:

    Funderbunk's suggestion has more merit, but having it only as a treasury makes it far too predictable, especially when its placement within the dungeon doesn't fit the standard profile for a Treasury... added with the fact you'll be treading carefully around every Treasury you see. Not very exciting. Nazgren's original suggestion of having it mimic random rooms is far more interesting, and works as long as the trap effect remains the same and constant irrespective of what it mimics.

    It'll also make it harder to counter, and could add another interesting mechanic in exposing the Trap Room by casting Sight of Evil. As long as it could be anything, tactical foresight and awareness can come in to neutralize the room before assaulting... if you can pick where it is. We get a game of cat and mouse between defender and aggressor to guess the other's hand. Afterall... you can't cast it everywhere unless you want to spend much of your attention checking the enemies entire dungeon which is hardly the most effective use for a Keeper's attention - you're enemy's gain as he trains up creatures, manages research and manufacture, plants traps, expands. This will become a battle of wits... Nazgren's guessing game aspect is so much more compelling.

    Would he hide it closer to the frontlines where my creatures will more likely tread, or deeper into his base where I'm less likely to scan?

    Was that room he just constructed near the recent skirmish really a Trap Room?

    If a construct one on my flank, the one that hasn't seen any action, will he bother to look for it if he tries to launch an attack?

    Was that his only Trap Room? Is there more? Was that just an obvious one to put me off-guard?


    The second nitpick I have with it being reusable in Funderbunk's suggestion. This is too powerful, too abusable and leaves rich veins of strategic depth untapped. When you expose a trap, its exposed... you aren't just playing a campaign against stupid heroes, you will be competing with other Keepers and Hero Keepers in MP. It has too work there to. This isn't Dungeons. Which is why this trap should be one shot. It has one chance to snap shut like a Venus Fly Trap, impaling all inside... if it gets exposed then the gambits up, unless you have an ace up your sleeve elsewhere.

    The third nitpick with both suggestions is that it doesn't give you much of a defence and it can utterly annihilate an attacking force. Red Keepers forces enter hatchery, trap activates, end of story. That is a bad way to spring it. Better to have it as a hindrance to the enemy trying to move his territory forward. Have it spring shut... when enemy imps claim it, or, start trying. This helps keep hold of your territory when you're down on your luck and stops the enemy from moving in so quickly. In a game where, at least in DK 2, claimed tiles mean Mana income which is everything, holding onto them is very important. And creatures unlucky enough to still be hanging around won't be smiling. Furthermore it encourages Keepers to wait until they have well and truly conquered territory before they send in the imps so their spearhead doesn't get caught in any undetected grinders. I'm not actually 100% happy with my solution on this score, but its better than instant obliteration of incursion forces. A second alternative which just occurs and I like better would be to have it so they enter the room and then there is a series of ominous clicks before the trap springs... maybe of 2-3 seconds... giving the attacker at least some chance to salvage their force or at least their most powerful creatures if it is a big one. Ideally they should have checked first anyway before storming in... and if they stormed in blindly, risking a big and powerful force, they almost deserve to be obliterated. This also introduces the possible neutralizing tactic of 'Point Men'... several low level creatures sent into rooms first to see if they are safe. They could easily be picked up and pulled back if all went well and would leave the room to spring shut on... *nothing*. Flies would be ideal, giving them a small but useful role in the late game.

    Additionally, just think how interesting a campaign introductory level would be with said mechanics

    My fourth and final piece of advice is that the room must actually undertake the functions it imitates or else it is obvious it is a Trap Room, thus it must be the most expensive room obviously (also raises the stakes in cat and mouse), but also it must be visible to the defending Keeper that it is both a Trap Room and an imitation of a Lair, Library or Hatchery.


    Those are just my suggestions, but my advice to all people posting suggestions is that concepts alone or creative ideas or half-baked schemes don't make the cut. You must think about balance and gameplay when you make the suggestion as well. You may not have played WftO, I'm certainly not on the dev team and I haven't got a clue about how it will play out and to a degree I don't think they know fully yet either because it is an ongoing process, but apply it to the context of Dk1 and Dk2 (because invariably WftO will be somewhere between) and think how would it function/work/play out there? Would it be balanced there?
    Last edited by MeinCookie; October 3rd, 2011 at 17:28.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Trap Room

    See, I think the random room thing doesn't work because it makes it far too unpredictable for the building keeper. I don't know about you, but if there's a chance it'll look like something ridiculous in the spot you're building it, I'd probably not build it. If it's always the same, I know what I'm doing, and it's a calculated risk.

    I get your points, but I'd like you to explain how mine annihilates enemy forces, as it does minimal damage? It's mostly there to stop progress.

    I never really thought this would make it in, really. Like I said, I wrote it mostly because of my love for dungeon traps in film and video games. It's just too undefined, is it a room? Is it a trap? Is it under traps? But traps are always single tiles, so is it under rooms? If so, do you still have to make it in the workshop?

    Alternatively, it COULD be a trap you make in the workshop, place INSIDE a room, and effectively turn the entire room into a trap.

    EDIT: Then again, if you surround your dungeon with one long guard room, that effectively makes it impossible to breach your dungeon with a single trap. Hrm.
    Last edited by Funderbunk; October 3rd, 2011 at 18:30.

  9. #9
    Vampire MeinCookie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trap Room

    Good point, yours does . I was trying to review both Trap Room suggestions in the early hours of the mourning. Forgive me on that score and consider it a note of how I would go about doing it. I assumed on that score because if your going to have a room which goes to the length disguises itself (even if is only as the treasury), it kind of needs to be able to lay on the damage in a crushing way. If its just seeing off scouts, why even bother camouflaging it? Why even have it and not a couple of low-level traps instead which would be much cheaper on whole?

    To a degree I agree with you, in that yes it is unpredictable for the building Keeper in establishing its disguise which could ruin the ruse. I was wondering if their would be a way to counteract that. Now that it isn't 3 AM I can think straight . That can always be fixed by building the trap room in 'disarmed' mode. It doesn't appear to the enemy at all, and it doesn't fire. Either a menu will pop up after completing the room, or else you can right-click to bring that menu up which could be equipped with a list of rooms it can imitate. Once it takes on a disguise, it appears to be built to the other player, and becomes armed.

    Well it either has to be a room or a trap, blurring the lines makes it more complicated and less intuitive, making it less likely to be usable. If its a trap then it will break several established laws such as you can't build traps on room tiles. That was its better to go with a room . Thats not to say it doesn't have to compete with traps, on an economic cost-effectiveness basis, but it should stay a standard room mechanic.
    Last edited by MeinCookie; October 4th, 2011 at 01:34.
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