Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2
Results 11 to 15 of 15

Thread: Sorceress

  
  1. #11
    Bile Demon natchoguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    a new forum
    Posts
    809

    Default Re: Yukusi

    I find this creature really similar to the archmage stat-wise and concept-wise.

  2. #12
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,689

    Default Re: Yukusi

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    Okay, so I understand your definition of Burst Support only means that it has powerful spells with longer recharge times, regardless of what the spell actually does. That's an incredibly vague definition, since even the Ghost would count what with its spellset of Wind, Rebound and Invisibility, all of which have long recharge times.
    No, you don't understand. Not just powerful spells with longer recharge times, spells that have an effect on Units for a very short period of time. Think of what a Burst actually is. Bursts don't last a long time, they are sudden and occur within a moment.

    Whirlwind is the only one of those spells that can be considered "Burst Support" because the effect, despite how great, only lasts for a moment. Rebound is a powerful effect, but its effect last quite a while. The recharge time isn't even that long, in fact, it is barely longer than the effect time itself, thus making Rebound an almost near constant effect. And Invisibility is a horrible example. It doesn't even have that powerful of an effect, not in battle to make it a Burst Support unit. What also makes Rebound and Invisibility not qualify as "Burst Support" is the simple fact that they are self buffing Spells, they don't really make good spells when it comes to supporting others.

    I think you're trying too hard to counter my arguements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    I don't understand, though, how you can call this a counterpart of the Warlock, then. Sure, it shares the actual Burst Support characteristic as defined by you - but it is in every other way entirely different. You can't say something is a counterpart of another thing when it is actually the polar opposite of it.
    It is a counterpart to the Warlock because they both fill the Burst Support Unit Role. Filling the same Unit Role is all that is really required for two Units to be counterparts. We're not in DK2 where said Units require to be exact clones, now. That would be very boring and uninteresting, which is exactly why I made the Yukusi focus on more defensive spells. It also fits in with her ice elemental and the fact that she is a Hero.

    There's nothing wrong with them being different from one another. Look at the Knight and the Dragon, they're both counterparts in that they fill the Armored Tank Unit Role. But they're still significantly different from each other because of their own abilities. Better yet, look at the Priestess and the Vampire. They're both Magical Tanks, thus making them counterparts, but they're extremely different from one another. They fill their Unit Role in their own unique way.

    An additional reason why it is important to have Unit Counterparts differ from each other is because it makes Gameplay more interesting as both Sides play significantly different. If you still are having trouble understanding that, then you can call the Warlock an Offensive Burst Support Unit and the Yukusi a Defensive Burst Support Unit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    Does this make the Fairy a counterpart of the Bile Demon? (By your logic, that actually makes sense as both use non-burst spells for damage) Does this make the Giant a counterpart to the Fly?
    Now all you're trying to do is to twist the meaning of my arguements around. Is this really your best counter arguement? It gets us nowhere and can also lead us to making wrong/bad descions if all you do is twist up what the other person is saying, effectively making their words lose meaning. It is pretty similar to simply ignoring them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    Also, the Fairy pretty much does specialize in DPS-type spells. Unless you're falling back to that idea to making Meteor have an unpractically long recharge time so that that wouldn't count.
    No, she doesn't. The only DPS Spells she has is Drain and Lightning, which is 2/8, 25% in other words. I wouldn't call that specilization. Note that Navigating Missile is the stronger of the two Missile Spells, but has a longer recharge time. Also note that Meteor is not a DPS-type spell. That is closer to an offensive Burst Support type of spell. That's just a horrible example.

    The Fairy has no focus on what type (As in DPS, Burst, AoE, etc) of spells she uses, she simply uses Spells that are very damaging on a single target. Drain, Lightning, Navigating Missile, Rebound, (Potentially) and Meteor. Freeze simply helps her be a better support Unit, and Heal helps her survive as she really needs it. I honestly think Invisibility could be done away with though.

    The Dark Mistress is an example of a Unit that does specialize in DPS-type spells. She has Lightning, Drain, and Speed Monster, with no other Spells that assist her in battle. What does that tell you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    -Maiden and Yukusi have mostly similar stats, with no stat differing much between each other
    Well I just told you I wanted to do a revision of the Maiden, so why do you want to persist in calling the Yukusi a clone of the old Maiden? Still, guess I'll reply to these things to prove that you're just trying to resent the Yukusi and doing whatever you possibly can to get a reason to hate her.

    For the stats, I really don't see it.

    Code:
    Maiden				Yukusi
    Health: Low			Health: Low
    Strength: Low			Strength: Very Low
    Armour: Very Low		Armour: Below Average
    Dexterity: Very High		Dexterity: Above Average
    Defense: High			Defense: Below Average
    Speed: Moderate			Speed: Low
    Luck: Below Average		Luck: Below Average
    Recovery: Above Average		Recovery: Moderate
    Intelligence: Moderate		Intelligence: Above Average
    Construction: Crap		Construction: Very Low
    Training Rate: Low		Training Rate: Below Average
    Training Cost: Above Average	Training Cost: Moderate
    Wage: Very High			Wage: Above Average
    Gold Held: Moderate		Gold Held: Low
    The only stats she has that are the same are Health and Luck. The only stats that are "similar" (As in up or down one grade) are Recovery, Intelligence, Training Rate, and Training Cost. That's 6/14, less than half. I don't know how that can be called "mostly". You're just exagerating to help your arguement.

    Health is also a bit irrellivant as she's a Support Unit, Support Units generally have Low Health. Also note that the Yukusi has significantly better Armor, which is stat directly related to Health. Training Rate and Training Cost are balancing traits, and a significant amount of Units also have Training stats similar to those to balance them. And Luck was one of the stats I was going to change for the Maiden, so it won't be the same as the Yukusi's anymore. Not to mention, they would end up with different Scavenger stats and Torture stats.

    You seriously are trying a bit too hard to resent the Yukusi. You're just looking at any little detail to pick at, but the Yukusi's stats are fine the way they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    -VERY similar spell build (two attack spells where one is an average projectile, the other a burst damage projectile; first support spell learned at level 3, second and third support spells learned at level 5 and 6 respectively, secondary offensive spell at level 8, defensive support spell at level 9, and a final support spell at level 10)
    You mean you have a problem with the way their Spells build up? Now I know you're trying to be picky. That kind of thing is pretty coincidential, but is also something that would be different after the Maiden's revision. When I looked back at the Maiden's stats, yes I did realize she had a Meteor spell. That was something I wanted to remove from her, because that's a strong offensive spell, and she's not supposed to use too many spells like that. I wanted to give her some more buffing spells and what not.

    Also, most Support Spell Caster Units will probably end up with a Level 9 and Level 10 Support Spell. Spell Casters generally have a lot of Spells, so more likely than not will you see them obtain a spell at their Max Level. Level 9 is similar to Level 10 in DK1 as it is the max level you'll reach in the Training Room, and Level 10 is the max level period. In this way, Level 9 and Level 10 are both like "Max Levels" in their own way. Because of this, Spell Casters generally will get a strong spell when they reach Level 9 or Level 10 as it is their max Level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    -both have an additional ability that buffs other creature stats
    The Maiden has no Special Ability, she just has her unique Encouragement Job. It does not buff any actual battle stat, but rather it increases their efficiency in the dungeon, and only works in the dungeon. The Yukusi's Special Ability is very situational, occuring only when she leads a Party formed at the Barracks. It does not actually boost any stat or increase their efficiency in the dungeon, it just offers some resistance to the Freeze spell which helps in battle against certain Units.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    -shared dislike of tavern
    So does the Guardian and probably the Monk and Priestess? Honestly, a dislike of the Tavern can be expected on the Hero Side, they'd rather go to the Temple. You also remove the very reason why they dislike the Tavern. The Maiden simply doesn't want to get drunk, and the Yukusi is too serious and hardworking to slack off in a place like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    -shared dislike of lesser female creatures including Witch, Succubus and Dark Mistress
    Also not uncommon on the Hero Side. Remember what type of Creatures the Witch, Succubus, and Dark Mistress are. The Witch is completely cruel, the Succubus likes to manipulate males with her seducive magic, and I don't even need to go into the Dark Mistress' behavior to describe how some of the holier and more noble of Heroes could hate her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    -shared like of high class male units
    You, again, try to twist the meaning of things in an attempt to turn the arguement in your favor. First off, the Yukusi does not personally like the Lord of the Land, she simply has an extreme amount of loyalty to him because he is the one in command. She also has no interest towards the Juggernaut like how you try to imply she does. Secondly, the Maiden does not have a direct liking of the Lord of the Land as you try to imply. She likes all male Units, not just specific Units.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    -similar torture animation idea which involves using each others' element on each other
    That is completely statistically irrelevant. And even if it weren't, you're, again, trying to be picky about the details. Units typically have one of two types of Torture Animations. The first involves their own weapon being used against them. The second is a bit more common with the suggestions rather than the Units in DK1, but it basically involves using their weakness against them.

    The Torture Animation is something I probably will change when I revise the Maiden as I don't really like it, being as it ties her to her "speciality in fire", which is something I was partially going to remove. The Yukusi's animation involves both types of pain, as it physically hurts her but is also very degrading so it involves some type of mental pain. It is fine the way it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    -similar temple recipes, which both include Warlock for creatures and Monk for heroes
    Temple Recipes for both Units will probably be changed, so that simularity will become non-existant. For the Maiden, the Warlock is something that relates to her specializing in fire, which is something I wanted to partially remove as I stated above. The Monk probably will be removed because I don't think the Maiden is really that holy.

    For the Yukusi, I really wasn't sure what to put other than the Wizard, so I put Monk there for now. I was looking for someone who used more Ice Magic but couldn't think of who would do that type of think, so I through the Monk in there because he's also a bit of a buffer. I didn't expect someone to come by and start desparately searching for every simularity between the Maiden and the Yukusi just so that they can call the Yukusi a Maiden clone in an attempt to get the Yukusi rejected. The Monk will be changed with the Guardian instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    make it pretty obvious that me that the Maiden and Yukusi are similar, or hell, counterparts period. The Monk has none of the above.
    When you called the Yukusi a Maiden clone, I figured you were talking about statistical information related to battle such as their Stats, Spells, and Special Abilities. Being as they're all Spell Casters, however, their Spell Set is obviously the most important of details.

    I stated the Monk was more similar to the Maiden compared to the Yukusi, because they both have Heal Other and Protect Other. The Yukusi has no Healing Spell, and all of her buffing Spells are AoE instead of single targeting such as the Maiden's and Monk's. All of the Yukusi's buffs relate to Armor. The only spell the Maiden has that boosts Armor is Protect Other. The detail about their comparable Meteor and Crystal Javalin is irrelevant as I was going to remove Meteor from the Maiden, as previously stated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    Aight then, let's look up the etymology for Nagini you posted in its thread.

    So there is no actual explanation posted for the Nagini's name other than it being based on "Naga" with garbl pasted on it, unlike what you're attempting to imply. Stop pretending I can't read.
    This is where I saw the terms "Nagi" and "Nagini" being used for the female Naga.

    A female nāga is a nāgī or nāginī.
    If you want to continue to persist about the Nagini, then take it to her own thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    Uh, Ice Mage? Or Sorceress, as was noted?
    I was looking for a one worded term that was used for a magic user that used ice, similar to how a Necromancer uses magic related to Undead. Sorceresses aren't neccessarily ice magic users, as far as I know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    Hell, you did make a suggestion named Ice Archer, and you didn't make up anything for that one either.
    Ever heard of a placeholder? No better name was really suggested for the Ice Archer, so I stuck with the placeholder name for now. It isn't that important of a detail right now, so I figured it could wait a while.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    Sure, you could say that about every single word ever. Or hell, anything ever. But as for the Dungeon Keeper universe, there are no new terms made up for creatures. Troll, Orc, and such are names not invented by the DK creators, they already existed. Bile Demon, Horned Reaper, Dark Mistress and such are based on actual English words, so their names aren't really new either. What I'm meaning to say is, making up names ex nihilo for creatures does not fit the Dungeon Keeper universe (especially as your suggestions will name-wise contrast with every other unit in the game). Stick to traditional names, or in the actual spirit of DK, I'd say.
    Why are you complaining so much about something I already decided to change? Jeez, it looks like you just want to find anything to complain about as long as it is related to the Yukusi. In fact, all you're really doing is repeating what Funderbuck said, except being more agressive about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by natchoguy View Post
    I find this creature really similar to the archmage stat-wise and concept-wise.
    I don't know what to tell you. I don't see the resemblence at all. You might have to go into detail a bit more on what you mean.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

  3. #13
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,689

    Default Re: Yukusi

    Please excuse the double post for I have a small update.

    • Ice Aura Moved Down to Level 5
    • Re-Added Hailstorm at Level 7
    • Revised Frozen Armor Slightly
    • Gave More Accurate Effect and Recharge Times for All Spells
    • Tweaked Defensive Leader Slightly


    Tell me whether you agree with the "return" of the Hailstorm spell, and why or why not. I'm not too sure about it, but it is a pretty defensive spell as it only effective when there's a Melee enemy attacking her.

    There is, as previously mentioned, the slight revision of the Yukusi's Temple Recipe. I have not yet changed her name because I haven't had time to think of anything that outdoes Sorceress, as I was too busy replying to Mothrayas. I'll think about it over the next few days and see if I come up with anything.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

  4. #14
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    1,635

    Default Re: Yukusi

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    No, you don't understand. Not just powerful spells with longer recharge times, spells that have an effect on Units for a very short period of time. Think of what a Burst actually is. Bursts don't last a long time, they are sudden and occur within a moment.

    Whirlwind is the only one of those spells that can be considered "Burst Support" because the effect, despite how great, only lasts for a moment. Rebound is a powerful effect, but its effect last quite a while. The recharge time isn't even that long, in fact, it is barely longer than the effect time itself, thus making Rebound an almost near constant effect. And Invisibility is a horrible example. It doesn't even have that powerful of an effect, not in battle to make it a Burst Support unit. What also makes Rebound and Invisibility not qualify as "Burst Support" is the simple fact that they are self buffing Spells, they don't really make good spells when it comes to supporting others.

    I think you're trying too hard to counter my arguements.
    Very well then.

    Besides, since the Warlock also has spells like Invisibility, Sight and Rebound (in some KFX versions), what does that mean to it as a Burst Supporter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    It is a counterpart to the Warlock because they both fill the Burst Support Unit Role. Filling the same Unit Role is all that is really required for two Units to be counterparts. We're not in DK2 where said Units require to be exact clones, now. That would be very boring and uninteresting, which is exactly why I made the Yukusi focus on more defensive spells. It also fits in with her ice elemental and the fact that she is a Hero.
    No, obviously they don't require to be exact clones. But I really think saying they're counterparts on spell effect duration and spell cooldown is stretching it. Let me bring up the Fairy and Bile Demon comparison again. Both are purely non-burst oriented damage dealers. In my eyes, that says "counterpart" more than having similar spell recharge time does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    There's nothing wrong with them being different from one another. Look at the Knight and the Dragon, they're both counterparts in that they fill the Armored Tank Unit Role. But they're still significantly different from each other because of their own abilities.
    Knight and Dragon are more similar to each other than Warlock and Yukusi are, though. The difference between those two is that one throws fire and has some additional lategame attacking spells, and the other has rebound. The difference between this and the warlock is that one just attacks the opponent, and the other supports a team. Major difference imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    Better yet, look at the Priestess and the Vampire. They're both Magical Tanks, thus making them counterparts, but they're extremely different from one another. They fill their Unit Role in their own unique way.
    Pardon me, but since when was the Priestess a Magical Tank? It has at least twice as low health as the Vampire, gets healing very late and has a tendency to damage itself. And instead of the tank-like Drain to attack, it instead has powerful spells like Poison Gas, Lightning and Navigating Missile.

    I don't know what your definition of Magical Tank is, but if this counts it's really stretching it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    An additional reason why it is important to have Unit Counterparts differ from each other is because it makes Gameplay more interesting as both Sides play significantly different. If you still are having trouble understanding that, then you can call the Warlock an Offensive Burst Support Unit and the Yukusi a Defensive Burst Support Unit.
    Right. So, to, you, Offensive [minor sidefact] and Defensive [minor sidefact] are counterparts. Again, I think that's stretching it. Units are counterparts by bearing major similarties and minor differences, not major differences with minor similarties.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    Now all you're trying to do is to twist the meaning of my arguements around. Is this really your best counter arguement? It gets us nowhere and can also lead us to making wrong/bad descions if all you do is twist up what the other person is saying, effectively making their words lose meaning. It is pretty similar to simply ignoring them.
    What, then, is the meaning of your arguments that I'm twisting around? That intrinsically different unit types can be counterparts because you say so?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    No, she doesn't. The only DPS Spells she has is Drain and Lightning, which is 2/8, 25% in other words. I wouldn't call that specilization. Note that Navigating Missile is the stronger of the two Missile Spells, but has a longer recharge time. Also note that Meteor is not a DPS-type spell. That is closer to an offensive Burst Support type of spell. That's just a horrible example.
    I notice that you probably read over this line from me (even though you did quote it).
    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas
    Unless you're falling back to that idea to making Meteor have an unpractically long recharge time so that that wouldn't count.
    I don't see how Meteor would qualify any less as far as DPS goes. Drain does like 20 damage, and let's say it's used once a second. Meteor I'm assuming does 100 damage, which would make a recharge time of 5 seconds (which is far more than enough, and also what it was in DK1 according to you), have it do the same damage as drain over time. Ergo, Meteor has the same DPS as Drain, and that's in the worst case (god, I hope you're not going to make it anymore useless than you're making it already). Navigating Missile is as far as I know much in the same way, with the same or at least very similar DPS. So if Drain counts as DPS spell, Meteor and Navigating Missile would count as DPS too, unless you're working with some odd double standards I'd not know of.

    Also, let's focus on the Fairy's amount of damaging attack spells, which is not 8. It's 4, and it's all the aforementioned Lightning, Drain, Meteor and Navigating Missile. So 100% of its attack spells, are, by my standards, DPS spells. So I'd say it does do DPS spells.

    Also, if you wanted to argue about discounting non-damaging spells, I'd like to see you come up with how over half of the Warlock's skill set (Heal, Invisibility, Sight, Wind, Rebound) fits with Offensive Burst Support, then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    The Fairy has no focus on what type (As in DPS, Burst, AoE, etc) of spells she uses, she simply uses Spells that are very damaging on a single target. Drain, Lightning, Navigating Missile, Rebound, (Potentially) and Meteor. Freeze simply helps her be a better support Unit, and Heal helps her survive as she really needs it. I honestly think Invisibility could be done away with though.
    Spells that are damaging on a single target. Ergo, do high DPS. I don't know what your definition of DPS is, but it appears to be different from mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    The Dark Mistress is an example of a Unit that does specialize in DPS-type spells. She has Lightning, Drain, and Speed Monster, with no other Spells that assist her in battle. What does that tell you?
    It tells me things of the Dark Mistress, and I suppose your definition of DPS. None of which have to do with what we are actually talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    Well I just told you I wanted to do a revision of the Maiden, so why do you want to persist in calling the Yukusi a clone of the old Maiden? Still, guess I'll reply to these things to prove that you're just trying to resent the Yukusi and doing whatever you possibly can to get a reason to hate her.
    Because I initially hadn't known of the Maiden revision, and I also didn't know that you were going to overhaul it big time as you're implying, as that is exactly what it does not need.


    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    For the stats, I really don't see it.
    Code:
    Maiden				Yukusi					Difference
    Health: Low			Health: Low					0
    Strength: Low			Strength: Very Low				1
    Armour: Very Low		Armour: Below Average			2
    Dexterity: Very High		Dexterity: Above Average			2
    Defense: High			Defense: Below Average			3
    Speed: Moderate			Speed: Low				2
    Luck: Below Average		Luck: Below Average				0
    Recovery: Above Average		Recovery: Moderate			1
    Intelligence: Moderate		Intelligence: Above Average	1
    Construction: Crap		Construction: Very Low			2
    Training Rate: Low		Training Rate: Below Average		1
    Training Cost: Above Average	Training Cost: Moderate		1
    Wage: Very High			Wage: Above Average		2
    Gold Held: Moderate		Gold Held: Low					2
    Average of difference number is 1.43. That means, its stats are on average 1.43 points different. On a 11-point scale. If that doesn't tell you there are clear similarties then I don't know what possibly does.

    Also, notice that only one stat - Defense - switches from higher than average to lower than average. All other differences are just a different factor of low or high.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    The only stats she has that are the same are Health and Luck. The only stats that are "similar" (As in up or down one grade) are Recovery, Intelligence, Training Rate, and Training Cost. That's 6/14, less than half. I don't know how that can be called "mostly". You're just exagerating to help your arguement.
    You forgot Strength, which makes that 7/14 total, which is already half of the stats which are very close, on a 11-point scale. Half of its stats have an average difference of less than 9%, I don't know what this tells you but it does make it sound pretty similar to me.

    And while I can't call exactly half of it "most", note that the other stats are not much different either, as I outlined above. Average 1.43 points of difference, which on a 11-point scale means an average statistical difference of about 13%. You try calling that much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    Health is also a bit irrellivant as she's a Support Unit, Support Units generally have Low Health. Also note that the Yukusi has significantly better Armor, which is stat directly related to Health.
    Armor difference: Very Low || Below Average

    Where are you getting from that it has "good" and "significantly better" armor? It's still below creature standard, which I don't think is even all that much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    Training Rate and Training Cost are balancing traits, and a significant amount of Units also have Training stats similar to those to balance them. And Luck was one of the stats I was going to change for the Maiden, so it won't be the same as the Yukusi's anymore. Not to mention, they would end up with different Scavenger stats and Torture stats.

    You seriously are trying a bit too hard to resent the Yukusi. You're just looking at any little detail to pick at, but the Yukusi's stats are fine the way they are.
    I never stated the Yukusi's stats aren't fine, or that I have any problem with them. It's just that they're clearly very similar, which hints at both creatures being... similar. Not that its stat spread is bad, I don't know where you're getting that from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    You mean you have a problem with the way their Spells build up? Now I know you're trying to be picky. That kind of thing is pretty coincidential, but is also something that would be different after the Maiden's revision. When I looked back at the Maiden's stats, yes I did realize she had a Meteor spell. That was something I wanted to remove from her, because that's a strong offensive spell, and she's not supposed to use too many spells like that. I wanted to give her some more buffing spells and what not.
    Again, I have no problem with how their spells build up. Stop derailing my argument, it's nothing like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    Also, most Support Spell Caster Units will probably end up with a Level 9 and Level 10 Support Spell. Spell Casters generally have a lot of Spells, so more likely than not will you see them obtain a spell at their Max Level. Level 9 is similar to Level 10 in DK1 as it is the max level you'll reach in the Training Room, and Level 10 is the max level period. In this way, Level 9 and Level 10 are both like "Max Levels" in their own way. Because of this, Spell Casters generally will get a strong spell when they reach Level 9 or Level 10 as it is their max Level.
    Right. Still doesn't make them less dissimilar though, and I noticed very few support creatures in DK1 had both a support spell on level 9 and level 10. Most just went with at least one additional offensive spell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    The Maiden has no Special Ability, she just has her unique Encouragement Job. It does not buff any actual battle stat, but rather it increases their efficiency in the dungeon, and only works in the dungeon.
    The Maiden has no special ability, she just has her special ability. It does not buff any stat, but rather it buffs stats.

    That is, it doesn't buff battle stats, but it does buff efficiency (i.e. stats like construction). Those are still actual stats too, of course.

    And you're calling me picky. I suppose pickiness only is valid when it supports your point. Nice double standards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    The Yukusi's Special Ability is very situational, occuring only when she leads a Party formed at the Barracks. It does not actually boost any stat or increase their efficiency in the dungeon, it just offers some resistance to the Freeze spell which helps in battle against certain Units.
    Okay, so while stats aren't directly involved, it's still a buff to other creatures that's given by the creature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    So does the Guardian and probably the Monk and Priestess? Honestly, a dislike of the Tavern can be expected on the Hero Side, they'd rather go to the Temple. You also remove the very reason why they dislike the Tavern. The Maiden simply doesn't want to get drunk, and the Yukusi is too serious and hardworking to slack off in a place like that.
    Well, neither of these other creatures have the dislike fact mentioned. Also, not wanting to get drunk is actually kinda analogous with being serious. Why else wouldn't one want to be drunk?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    Also not uncommon on the Hero Side. Remember what type of Creatures the Witch, Succubus, and Dark Mistress are. The Witch is completely cruel, the Succubus likes to manipulate males with her seducive magic, and I don't even need to go into the Dark Mistress' behavior to describe how some of the holier and more noble of Heroes could hate her.
    And who, aside from those two, specifically cares?

    Nobody?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    You, again, try to twist the meaning of things in an attempt to turn the arguement in your favor. First off, the Yukusi does not personally like the Lord of the Land, she simply has an extreme amount of loyalty to him because he is the one in command. She also has no interest towards the Juggernaut like how you try to imply she does. Secondly, the Maiden does not have a direct liking of the Lord of the Land as you try to imply. She likes all male Units, not just specific Units.
    First, about the Maiden:

    Quote Originally Posted by Maiden
    The Maiden usually has a preference of who she wants to attach herself to. Within her preferences, she chooses the highest level possible. Here is a list of her preferences.

    1. Knightly
    2. Noble
    3. Human

    Loves:
    Knights
    You see, she clearly has preference towards high class men. Knights are high class, those suits of armor most definitely aren't cheap, and don't forget they filled the Lord of the Land role in DK1.. Next up on the list is 'noble', which I don't think needs explanation.

    Also, I don't see what the Juggernaut has to do with anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    That is completely statistically irrelevant. And even if it weren't, you're, again, trying to be picky about the details. Units typically have one of two types of Torture Animations. The first involves their own weapon being used against them. The second is a bit more common with the suggestions rather than the Units in DK1, but it basically involves using their weakness against them.

    The Torture Animation is something I probably will change when I revise the Maiden as I don't really like it, being as it ties her to her "speciality in fire", which is something I was partially going to remove. The Yukusi's animation involves both types of pain, as it physically hurts her but is also very degrading so it involves some type of mental pain. It is fine the way it is.
    And? I don't care if they're not statistically relevant, that's not the point. And you may say I'm picky about the details, but it does stand out to me that these two form a couple in this as no one else does the same.

    And again, I never said these aren't OK. Stop twisting my arguments around.


    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    Temple Recipes for both Units will probably be changed, so that simularity will become non-existant. For the Maiden, the Warlock is something that relates to her specializing in fire, which is something I wanted to partially remove as I stated above. The Monk probably will be removed because I don't think the Maiden is really that holy.

    For the Yukusi, I really wasn't sure what to put other than the Wizard, so I put Monk there for now. I was looking for someone who used more Ice Magic but couldn't think of who would do that type of think, so I through the Monk in there because he's also a bit of a buffer. I didn't expect someone to come by and start desparately searching for every simularity between the Maiden and the Yukusi just so that they can call the Yukusi a Maiden clone in an attempt to get the Yukusi rejected. The Monk will be changed with the Guardian instead.
    Well, if you're going to change and differentiate all of these, I see you've at least figured out that something was wrong with this here.

    Also, I'm not "desperately searching every similarty to call the Yukusi a Maiden clone". I just noticed the similarties right away, I'm not going to plush out to look for comparisons when I don't even know if they're there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    When you called the Yukusi a Maiden clone, I figured you were talking about statistical information related to battle such as their Stats, Spells, and Special Abilities. Being as they're all Spell Casters, however, their Spell Set is obviously the most important of details.
    Yes, and? As noted, the stats, spells and to an extent special abilites were remarkably similar. Otherwise I wouldn't have noticed the similarty in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    I stated the Monk was more similar to the Maiden compared to the Yukusi, because they both have Heal Other and Protect Other. The Yukusi has no Healing Spell, and all of her buffing Spells are AoE instead of single targeting such as the Maiden's and Monk's. All of the Yukusi's buffs relate to Armor. The only spell the Maiden has that boosts Armor is Protect Other.
    Okay, so the difference is that the Yukusi has essentially traded in Heal Other for more Armor affecting spells. Well, that certainly is a major difference. [/sarcasm].

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    The detail about their comparable Meteor and Crystal Javalin is irrelevant as I was going to remove Meteor from the Maiden, as previously stated.
    Of course, this is the kind of things that no one's told about beforehand, so **** me if I would know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    This is where I saw the terms "Nagi" and "Nagini" being used for the female Naga.

    If you want to continue to persist about the Nagini, then take it to her own thread.
    Okay. Another thing you didn't bother me telling about beforehand, noted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    I was looking for a one worded term that was used for a magic user that used ice, similar to how a Necromancer uses magic related to Undead. Sorceresses aren't neccessarily ice magic users, as far as I know.
    Why do you need a one worded term? As for the Ice Archer:

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    Ever heard of a placeholder? No better name was really suggested for the Ice Archer, so I stuck with the placeholder name for now. It isn't that important of a detail right now, so I figured it could wait a while.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ice Archer
    Frost Archer, Crystal Archer, Shiny Archer, and Ice Man are ideas.
    Even if Ice Archer was a placeholder name, your suggestions to replace the placeholder were all similar two-word terms anyway. No need to stick with one new-made term, as I've already explained it doesn't fit the DK Universe.


    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    Why are you complaining so much about something I already decided to change? Jeez, it looks like you just want to find anything to complain about as long as it is related to the Yukusi. In fact, all you're really doing is repeating what Funderbuck said, except being more agressive about it.
    Well, the thread title is still [Hero] Yukusi. You haven't actually changed it yet.

    Either way, I wasn't sure at the time you already 100% decided to change it to a preexisting name. Also, I replied as it was part of the debate post you sent me. If I didn't reply you would just as well have complained that I just cut out parts I didn't like.
    Last edited by Mothrayas; October 4th, 2011 at 21:49.

    The Awakening


  5. #15
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,689

    Default Re: Yukusi

    I changed the Yukusi's name to Sorceress finally. Will reply to Mothrayas later once I have more time.

    While I was going through her post and changing her name, I also did some slight corrections (Mostly Grammar related) here and there. And I added and changed some information in the "Author's Note" section. Also added a small amount of information in the "Behavior in Battle" section, and made her eat three chickens instead of two. (She still eats infrequently)

    That is all.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •