Originally Posted by
Metal Gear Rex
No, you don't understand. Not just powerful spells with longer recharge times, spells that have an effect on Units for a very short period of time. Think of what a Burst actually is. Bursts don't last a long time, they are sudden and occur within a moment.
Whirlwind is the only one of those spells that can be considered "Burst Support" because the effect, despite how great, only lasts for a moment. Rebound is a powerful effect, but its effect last quite a while. The recharge time isn't even that long, in fact, it is barely longer than the effect time itself, thus making Rebound an almost near constant effect. And Invisibility is a horrible example. It doesn't even have that powerful of an effect, not in battle to make it a Burst Support unit. What also makes Rebound and Invisibility not qualify as "Burst Support" is the simple fact that they are self buffing Spells, they don't really make good spells when it comes to supporting others.
I think you're trying too hard to counter my arguements.
Very well then.
Besides, since the Warlock also has spells like Invisibility, Sight and Rebound (in some KFX versions), what does that mean to it as a Burst Supporter?
Originally Posted by
Metal Gear Rex
It is a counterpart to the Warlock because they both fill the Burst Support Unit Role. Filling the same Unit Role is all that is really required for two Units to be counterparts. We're not in DK2 where said Units require to be exact clones, now. That would be very boring and uninteresting, which is exactly why I made the Yukusi focus on more defensive spells. It also fits in with her ice elemental and the fact that she is a Hero.
No, obviously they don't require to be exact clones. But I really think saying they're counterparts on spell effect duration and spell cooldown is stretching it. Let me bring up the Fairy and Bile Demon comparison again. Both are purely non-burst oriented damage dealers. In my eyes, that says "counterpart" more than having similar spell recharge time does.
Originally Posted by
Metal Gear Rex
There's nothing wrong with them being different from one another. Look at the Knight and the Dragon, they're both counterparts in that they fill the Armored Tank Unit Role. But they're still significantly different from each other because of their own abilities.
Knight and Dragon are more similar to each other than Warlock and Yukusi are, though. The difference between those two is that one throws fire and has some additional lategame attacking spells, and the other has rebound. The difference between this and the warlock is that one just attacks the opponent, and the other supports a team. Major difference imo.
Originally Posted by
Metal Gear Rex
Better yet, look at the Priestess and the Vampire. They're both Magical Tanks, thus making them counterparts, but they're extremely different from one another. They fill their Unit Role in their own unique way.
Pardon me, but since when was the Priestess a Magical Tank? It has at least twice as low health as the Vampire, gets healing very late and has a tendency to damage itself. And instead of the tank-like Drain to attack, it instead has powerful spells like Poison Gas, Lightning and Navigating Missile.
I don't know what your definition of Magical Tank is, but if this counts it's really stretching it.
Originally Posted by
Metal Gear Rex
An additional reason why it is important to have Unit Counterparts differ from each other is because it makes Gameplay more interesting as both Sides play significantly different. If you still are having trouble understanding that, then you can call the Warlock an Offensive Burst Support Unit and the Yukusi a Defensive Burst Support Unit.
Right. So, to, you, Offensive [minor sidefact] and Defensive [minor sidefact] are counterparts. Again, I think that's stretching it. Units are counterparts by bearing major similarties and minor differences, not major differences with minor similarties.
Originally Posted by
Metal Gear Rex
Now all you're trying to do is to twist the meaning of my arguements around. Is this really your best counter arguement? It gets us nowhere and can also lead us to making wrong/bad descions if all you do is twist up what the other person is saying, effectively making their words lose meaning. It is pretty similar to simply ignoring them.
What, then, is the meaning of your arguments that I'm twisting around? That intrinsically different unit types can be counterparts because you say so?
Originally Posted by
Metal Gear Rex
No, she doesn't. The only DPS Spells she has is Drain and Lightning, which is 2/8, 25% in other words. I wouldn't call that specilization. Note that Navigating Missile is the stronger of the two Missile Spells, but has a longer recharge time. Also note that Meteor is not a DPS-type spell. That is closer to an offensive Burst Support type of spell. That's just a horrible example.
I notice that you probably read over this line from me (even though you did quote it).
Originally Posted by
Mothrayas
Unless you're falling back to that idea to making Meteor have an unpractically long recharge time so that that wouldn't count.
I don't see how Meteor would qualify any less as far as DPS goes. Drain does like 20 damage, and let's say it's used once a second. Meteor I'm assuming does 100 damage, which would make a recharge time of 5 seconds (which is far more than enough, and also what it was in DK1 according to you), have it do the same damage as drain over time. Ergo, Meteor has the same DPS as Drain, and that's in the worst case (god, I hope you're not going to make it anymore useless than you're making it already). Navigating Missile is as far as I know much in the same way, with the same or at least very similar DPS. So if Drain counts as DPS spell, Meteor and Navigating Missile would count as DPS too, unless you're working with some odd double standards I'd not know of.
Also, let's focus on the Fairy's amount of damaging attack spells, which is not 8. It's 4, and it's all the aforementioned Lightning, Drain, Meteor and Navigating Missile. So 100% of its attack spells, are, by my standards, DPS spells. So I'd say it does do DPS spells.
Also, if you wanted to argue about discounting non-damaging spells, I'd like to see you come up with how over half of the Warlock's skill set (Heal, Invisibility, Sight, Wind, Rebound) fits with Offensive Burst Support, then.
Originally Posted by
Metal Gear Rex
The Fairy has no focus on what type (As in DPS, Burst, AoE, etc) of spells she uses, she simply uses Spells that are very damaging on a single target. Drain, Lightning, Navigating Missile, Rebound, (Potentially) and Meteor. Freeze simply helps her be a better support Unit, and Heal helps her survive as she really needs it. I honestly think Invisibility could be done away with though.
Spells that are damaging on a single target. Ergo, do high DPS. I don't know what your definition of DPS is, but it appears to be different from mine.
Originally Posted by
Metal Gear Rex
The Dark Mistress is an example of a Unit that does specialize in DPS-type spells. She has Lightning, Drain, and Speed Monster, with no other Spells that assist her in battle. What does that tell you?
It tells me things of the Dark Mistress, and I suppose your definition of DPS. None of which have to do with what we are actually talking about.
Originally Posted by
Metal Gear Rex
Well I just told you I wanted to do a revision of the Maiden, so why do you want to persist in calling the Yukusi a clone of the old Maiden? Still, guess I'll reply to these things to prove that you're just trying to resent the Yukusi and doing whatever you possibly can to get a reason to hate her.
Because I initially hadn't known of the Maiden revision, and I also didn't know that you were going to overhaul it big time as you're implying, as that is exactly what it does not need.
Originally Posted by
Metal Gear Rex
For the stats, I really don't see it.
Code:
Maiden Yukusi Difference
Health: Low Health: Low 0
Strength: Low Strength: Very Low 1
Armour: Very Low Armour: Below Average 2
Dexterity: Very High Dexterity: Above Average 2
Defense: High Defense: Below Average 3
Speed: Moderate Speed: Low 2
Luck: Below Average Luck: Below Average 0
Recovery: Above Average Recovery: Moderate 1
Intelligence: Moderate Intelligence: Above Average 1
Construction: Crap Construction: Very Low 2
Training Rate: Low Training Rate: Below Average 1
Training Cost: Above Average Training Cost: Moderate 1
Wage: Very High Wage: Above Average 2
Gold Held: Moderate Gold Held: Low 2
Average of difference number is 1.43. That means, its stats are on average 1.43 points different. On a 11-point scale. If that doesn't tell you there are clear similarties then I don't know what possibly does.
Also, notice that only one stat - Defense - switches from higher than average to lower than average. All other differences are just a different factor of low or high.
Originally Posted by
Metal Gear Rex
The only stats she has that are the same are Health and Luck. The only stats that are "similar" (As in up or down one grade) are Recovery, Intelligence, Training Rate, and Training Cost. That's 6/14, less than half. I don't know how that can be called "mostly". You're just exagerating to help your arguement.
You forgot Strength, which makes that 7/14 total, which is already half of the stats which are very close, on a 11-point scale. Half of its stats have an average difference of less than 9%, I don't know what this tells you but it does make it sound pretty similar to me.
And while I can't call exactly half of it "most", note that the other stats are not much different either, as I outlined above. Average 1.43 points of difference, which on a 11-point scale means an average statistical difference of about 13%. You try calling that much.
Originally Posted by
Metal Gear Rex
Health is also a bit irrellivant as she's a Support Unit, Support Units generally have Low Health. Also note that the Yukusi has significantly better Armor, which is stat directly related to Health.
Armor difference: Very Low || Below Average
Where are you getting from that it has "good" and "significantly better" armor? It's still below creature standard, which I don't think is even all that much.
Originally Posted by
Metal Gear Rex
Training Rate and Training Cost are balancing traits, and a significant amount of Units also have Training stats similar to those to balance them. And Luck was one of the stats I was going to change for the Maiden, so it won't be the same as the Yukusi's anymore. Not to mention, they would end up with different Scavenger stats and Torture stats.
You seriously are trying a bit too hard to resent the Yukusi. You're just looking at any little detail to pick at, but the Yukusi's stats are fine the way they are.
I never stated the Yukusi's stats aren't fine, or that I have any problem with them. It's just that they're clearly very similar, which hints at both creatures being... similar. Not that its stat spread is bad, I don't know where you're getting that from.
Originally Posted by
Metal Gear Rex
You mean you have a problem with the way their Spells build up? Now I know you're trying to be picky. That kind of thing is pretty coincidential, but is also something that would be different after the Maiden's revision. When I looked back at the Maiden's stats, yes I did realize she had a Meteor spell. That was something I wanted to remove from her, because that's a strong offensive spell, and she's not supposed to use too many spells like that. I wanted to give her some more buffing spells and what not.
Again, I have no problem with how their spells build up. Stop derailing my argument, it's nothing like that.
Originally Posted by
Metal Gear Rex
Also, most Support Spell Caster Units will probably end up with a Level 9 and Level 10 Support Spell. Spell Casters generally have a lot of Spells, so more likely than not will you see them obtain a spell at their Max Level. Level 9 is similar to Level 10 in DK1 as it is the max level you'll reach in the Training Room, and Level 10 is the max level period. In this way, Level 9 and Level 10 are both like "Max Levels" in their own way. Because of this, Spell Casters generally will get a strong spell when they reach Level 9 or Level 10 as it is their max Level.
Right. Still doesn't make them less dissimilar though, and I noticed very few support creatures in DK1 had both a support spell on level 9 and level 10. Most just went with at least one additional offensive spell.
Originally Posted by
Metal Gear Rex
The Maiden has no Special Ability, she just has her unique Encouragement Job. It does not buff any actual battle stat, but rather it increases their efficiency in the dungeon, and only works in the dungeon.
The Maiden has no special ability, she just has her special ability. It does not buff any stat, but rather it buffs stats.
That is, it doesn't buff battle stats, but it does buff efficiency (i.e. stats like construction). Those are still actual stats too, of course.
And you're calling me picky. I suppose pickiness only is valid when it supports your point. Nice double standards.
Originally Posted by
Metal Gear Rex
The Yukusi's Special Ability is very situational, occuring only when she leads a Party formed at the Barracks. It does not actually boost any stat or increase their efficiency in the dungeon, it just offers some resistance to the Freeze spell which helps in battle against certain Units.
Okay, so while stats aren't directly involved, it's still a buff to other creatures that's given by the creature.
Originally Posted by
Metal Gear Rex
So does the Guardian and probably the Monk and Priestess? Honestly, a dislike of the Tavern can be expected on the Hero Side, they'd rather go to the Temple. You also remove the very reason why they dislike the Tavern. The Maiden simply doesn't want to get drunk, and the Yukusi is too serious and hardworking to slack off in a place like that.
Well, neither of these other creatures have the dislike fact mentioned. Also, not wanting to get drunk is actually kinda analogous with being serious. Why else wouldn't one want to be drunk?
Originally Posted by
Metal Gear Rex
Also not uncommon on the Hero Side. Remember what type of Creatures the Witch, Succubus, and Dark Mistress are. The Witch is completely cruel, the Succubus likes to manipulate males with her seducive magic, and I don't even need to go into the Dark Mistress' behavior to describe how some of the holier and more noble of Heroes could hate her.
And who, aside from those two, specifically cares?
Nobody?
Originally Posted by
Metal Gear Rex
You, again, try to twist the meaning of things in an attempt to turn the arguement in your favor. First off, the Yukusi does not personally like the Lord of the Land, she simply has an extreme amount of loyalty to him because he is the one in command. She also has no interest towards the Juggernaut like how you try to imply she does. Secondly, the Maiden does not have a direct liking of the Lord of the Land as you try to imply. She likes all male Units, not just specific Units.
First, about the Maiden:
Originally Posted by
Maiden
The Maiden usually has a preference of who she wants to attach herself to. Within her preferences, she chooses the highest level possible. Here is a list of her preferences.
1. Knightly
2. Noble
3. Human
Loves:
Knights
You see, she clearly has preference towards high class men. Knights are high class, those suits of armor most definitely aren't cheap, and don't forget they filled the Lord of the Land role in DK1.. Next up on the list is 'noble', which I don't think needs explanation.
Also, I don't see what the Juggernaut has to do with anything.
Originally Posted by
Metal Gear Rex
That is completely statistically irrelevant. And even if it weren't, you're, again, trying to be picky about the details. Units typically have one of two types of Torture Animations. The first involves their own weapon being used against them. The second is a bit more common with the suggestions rather than the Units in DK1, but it basically involves using their weakness against them.
The Torture Animation is something I probably will change when I revise the Maiden as I don't really like it, being as it ties her to her "speciality in fire", which is something I was partially going to remove. The Yukusi's animation involves both types of pain, as it physically hurts her but is also very degrading so it involves some type of mental pain. It is fine the way it is.
And? I don't care if they're not statistically relevant, that's not the point. And you may say I'm picky about the details, but it does stand out to me that these two form a couple in this as no one else does the same.
And again, I never said these aren't OK. Stop twisting my arguments around.
Originally Posted by
Metal Gear Rex
Temple Recipes for both Units will probably be changed, so that simularity will become non-existant. For the Maiden, the Warlock is something that relates to her specializing in fire, which is something I wanted to partially remove as I stated above. The Monk probably will be removed because I don't think the Maiden is really that holy.
For the Yukusi, I really wasn't sure what to put other than the Wizard, so I put Monk there for now. I was looking for someone who used more Ice Magic but couldn't think of who would do that type of think, so I through the Monk in there because he's also a bit of a buffer. I didn't expect someone to come by and start desparately searching for every simularity between the Maiden and the Yukusi just so that they can call the Yukusi a Maiden clone in an attempt to get the Yukusi rejected. The Monk will be changed with the Guardian instead.
Well, if you're going to change and differentiate all of these, I see you've at least figured out that something was wrong with this here.
Also, I'm not "desperately searching every similarty to call the Yukusi a Maiden clone". I just noticed the similarties right away, I'm not going to plush out to look for comparisons when I don't even know if they're there.
Originally Posted by
Metal Gear Rex
When you called the Yukusi a Maiden clone, I figured you were talking about statistical information related to battle such as their Stats, Spells, and Special Abilities. Being as they're all Spell Casters, however, their Spell Set is obviously the most important of details.
Yes, and? As noted, the stats, spells and to an extent special abilites were remarkably similar. Otherwise I wouldn't have noticed the similarty in the first place.
Originally Posted by
Metal Gear Rex
I stated the Monk was more similar to the Maiden compared to the Yukusi, because they both have Heal Other and Protect Other. The Yukusi has no Healing Spell, and all of her buffing Spells are AoE instead of single targeting such as the Maiden's and Monk's. All of the Yukusi's buffs relate to Armor. The only spell the Maiden has that boosts Armor is Protect Other.
Okay, so the difference is that the Yukusi has essentially traded in Heal Other for more Armor affecting spells. Well, that certainly is a major difference. [/sarcasm].
Originally Posted by
Metal Gear Rex
The detail about their comparable Meteor and Crystal Javalin is irrelevant as I was going to remove Meteor from the Maiden, as previously stated.
Of course, this is the kind of things that no one's told about beforehand, so **** me if I would know.
Originally Posted by
Metal Gear Rex
This is where I saw the terms "Nagi" and "Nagini" being used for the female Naga.
If you want to continue to persist about the Nagini, then take it to her own thread.
Okay. Another thing you didn't bother me telling about beforehand, noted.
Originally Posted by
Metal Gear Rex
I was looking for a one worded term that was used for a magic user that used ice, similar to how a Necromancer uses magic related to Undead. Sorceresses aren't neccessarily ice magic users, as far as I know.
Why do you need a one worded term? As for the Ice Archer:
Originally Posted by
Metal Gear Rex
Ever heard of a placeholder? No better name was really suggested for the Ice Archer, so I stuck with the placeholder name for now. It isn't that important of a detail right now, so I figured it could wait a while.
Originally Posted by
Ice Archer
Frost Archer, Crystal Archer, Shiny Archer, and Ice Man are ideas.
Even if Ice Archer was a placeholder name, your suggestions to replace the placeholder were all similar two-word terms anyway. No need to stick with one new-made term, as I've already explained it doesn't fit the DK Universe.
Originally Posted by
Metal Gear Rex
Why are you complaining so much about something I already decided to change? Jeez, it looks like you just want to find anything to complain about as long as it is related to the Yukusi. In fact, all you're really doing is repeating what Funderbuck said, except being more agressive about it.
Well, the thread title is still [Hero] Yukusi. You haven't actually changed it yet.
Either way, I wasn't sure at the time you already 100% decided to change it to a preexisting name. Also, I replied as it was part of the debate post you sent me. If I didn't reply you would just as well have complained that I just cut out parts I didn't like.