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Thread: Keeping Too Much?

  
  1. #11

    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    I come to this thread a devout DK1 fan and also a nostalgia freak. With that said i cant explain how badly I love to see new and updated versions of the pop culture related things I saw and experienced when i was so much younger.

    Now i don't know much about the fine line between whether the game should be more creative or whether it should stick to all the units from DK, in terms of what will be most enjoyable or beneficial. The fact is it could go either way, and people will always find something to complain about.
    What I do know is that with the original units I will get to see those minions i know and love in full hi def graphics accustomed to the era we are living now. its not so much about reliving the game experience of Dungeon keeper, but seeing how much the technology has progressed to promote something i once loved.


    Here is an analogy: I love greek myths, I saw the new clash of the titans, I hated the film, its shoddy direction, script, and rushed content. But i loved seeing those greek mythological creatures and gods come to life so i still came out of the cinema wide eyed and pleased....... this is similar.

    What i will say is, the only people who are truly suffering from the decision to keep things of old. Are us in the dev team. You are right, we don't get to stretch ourselves creatively as much as we could, and we certainly dont get to credit ourselves as full blown creators but simple plagiarists (and i'm certain this will be the response from many, when all is finished). But the fact is I don't think any of us care. We get to make our favorite childhood game come to life once again!


    (I gotta say though i found myself kicking that darn tentacle back down the portal a hell of a lot...... maybe its just me, i grew up not trusting any sentient being that doesn't have a face.)

  2. #12
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    I don't want to get involved in the whole discussion, I just want to respond to a few points...

    Quote Originally Posted by Funderbunk View Post
    Because with this, you're making the player go back and forth between their creatures and their playing field in a repetive, grindy action that doesn't really add to their enjoyment of the game. That's not fun, and it's the game designer's job to take out the things that are not fun.
    With the whole Creature Tab, it isn't really that much of a problem. I think you're exagerating quite a bit. The only time moving Units becomes difficult is when you're one of those Players who is really cautious in battle and tries to save all his Units. The Player then must quickly move between their Lair and the battle in order to drop their injured Units into their Lairs so that they can recover.

    Quote Originally Posted by Funderbunk View Post
    And remarkably poor faith to think you and the rest of your team can't come up with something more iconic and interesting than the Tentacle.
    I happen to find the Tentacle to be quite interesting and unique. I think the Tentacle's position as an interesting and iconic Creature is very debatable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Funderbunk View Post
    Just to clarify, this board is one of the smartest game communities I've come across so far and I'm definitely not trying to compare you guys to the Blizzard fanbase, and if I did, you guys would come out on top any day of the week.
    Would you change your mind if I threatened to throw rocks at your house? Just a simple question really...
    Last edited by Mothrayas; October 12th, 2011 at 15:40. Reason: removed split part
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  3. #13

    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    If you only threatened to throw rocks at my house? Something tells me you've never been among the Blizzard fan community. I've disagreed with you at some point, and you didn't imply or threatened anything sexual about my mother or grandmother. You guys are harmless.

    I suppose how iconic a creature is must be very debatable, it's not something I really want to get into in depth, but in short I feel that how iconic something is comes from how much personality it has and when it comes to that green boring blob with spikes, it doesn't seem to have any.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impy View Post
    Here is an analogy: I love greek myths, I saw the new clash of the titans, I hated the film, its shoddy direction, script, and rushed content. But i loved seeing those greek mythological creatures and gods come to life so i still came out of the cinema wide eyed and pleased....... this is similar.

    What i will say is, the only people who are truly suffering from the decision to keep things of old. Are us in the dev team.
    Are you sure about that? One of my personal greatest pleasures in playing both Dungeon Keeper games was the discovery of new creatures and their abilities, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way. Even in DK2, every new creature I attracted was awesome at least for that moment. It wasn't after finding out how boring they were that I became disappointed with them, but the act of discovering something new is a powerful feeling and definitely something that can make or break a game.

    I'm not saying I have a major problem with keeping a lot of things, mind you. I'm voicing concerns that come with keeping a lot of things, but there's a lot to be gained by keeping things as well, just like there are concerns that come with changing things. It's an interesting discussion (I think) and despite noticing some tension in this and the other (split) thread, I believe talking and thinking about it has no harm. Even if people disagree with me (which seems to be the concensus thus far, hah) someone else might say something or hit some spark of inspiration that leads to good things for the project, or even some other project.

    Also, I have to say, that analogy doesn't really work for me because Clash of the Titans is a remake of a classic Harryhausen movie and it changed almost every single design substantially and even essentially gave the finger to some of them. If anything, this analogy seems to work more in favor of my original point than yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyle View Post
    Like We've said, there's a lot of shit you guys don't know about that we are planning, and it's the "tome of evil" not tomb of evil. You guys will learn more about the features if they make it in towards the future.
    Cool, this at least soothes the concerns I voiced in this thread quite a bit. If you don't mind, I would like to keep discussing the "old vs new debate" regardless.
    Last edited by Funderbunk; October 12th, 2011 at 21:42.

  4. #14

    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    Quote Originally Posted by Funderbunk View Post

    Are you sure about that? One of my personal greatest pleasures in playing both Dungeon Keeper games was the discovery of new creatures and their abilities, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way. Even in DK2, every new creature I attracted was awesome at least for that moment. It wasn't after finding out how boring they were that I became disappointed with them, but the act of discovering something new is a powerful feeling and definitely something that can make or break a game.
    Yes im sure. The fact is I had the manual in my hands, and i had eagerly read it previously.....so i know what creatures i was going to expect before I had even installed the game.


    Quote Originally Posted by Funderbunk View Post

    Also, I have to say, that analogy doesn't really work for me because Clash of the Titans is a remake of a classic Harryhausen movie and it changed almost every single design substantially and even essentially gave the finger to some of them. If anything, this analogy seems to work more in favor of my original point than yours.
    You mean the remake of the classic Desmond Davies movie which Harryhausen did the stop frame animation for?.. in case you didnt realise, it goes back even further. that film was infact based on ancient greek mythology, a concept long before Harryhausen got his hands on some clay. All those characters are based on characters from these ancient legends and as a result.. when i see one of them looking great in cgi, or played by a great actor, im happy.... even if the film is terrible as it was. So my point still stands.

  5. #15

    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    I also showed the Tentacle the way out of my dungeon back in the day, as I disliked it very much. I really don't agree with it being an iconic creature in Dungeon Keeper, the Bile Demon, Troll, Mistress and Horned Reaper take the cake in that department.

  6. #16
    Bile Demon natchoguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    I find the tentacle more of an easter egg champion. Not likely you're going to get one and really unique

  7. #17

    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impy View Post
    You mean the remake of the classic Desmond Davies movie which Harryhausen did the stop frame animation for?.. in case you didnt realise, it goes back even further. that film was infact based on ancient greek mythology, a concept long before Harryhausen got his hands on some clay. All those characters are based on characters from these ancient legends and as a result.. when i see one of them looking great in cgi, or played by a great actor, im happy.... even if the film is terrible as it was. So my point still stands.
    Don't have much time for this post, it may be a little rushed: First, movies that Harryhausen did animation for are often collectively referred to as 'Harryhausen movies' because he is by far the most known factor of these films (as unfair as it is to the rest of the filmmakers). And while the original was based on greek mythology, the new movie was a remake of that film, not an adaptation of the myth. And this movie is known among many mythology fans as being extremely unfaithful to both. Take a look at this:



    Now, I know there is some wiggle room here because there are different interpretations of myths, but the common take on Medusa, including the one from the original Persues story AND the original Clash of the Titans was that Medusa was a beautiful maiden who seduced Poseidon and Athena turned her into a creature with such a hideous face that it would turn all who looked upon her to stone.

    Does that face look so bad to you? She was radically redesigned and changed, even down to the very concept of the creature, along with many other things in the Clash of the Titans remake. The fact that you enjoyed it regardless means that people can still enjoy something if you change and redesign things, as long as you keep to the essence.

    Of course, that just depends on the way you look at it. The Clash of the Titans remake was so badly hated by the general public that it can still be used as an example against it.

  8. #18
    Hellhound Blutonium's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    Did you even Read my post?
    There is loads of new stuff, this is WFTO not a DK Clone.


    Perhaps you don't understand that just by staying faithful to the original character designs, doesn't mean its going to be the same game.
    We are taking designs from DK1, DK2, and also using our own fresh ideas. There are also plenty of new minions and hero's.

    Star Craft has many of the same characters, that look almost the same, except they are updated to today's graphical standard - that is what we are doing.



    If a Troll is pink and has long grey hair, why would he suddenly look different design-wise just because it is a different engine? it's the same character!

  9. #19

    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    Quote Originally Posted by Funderbunk View Post
    Cool, this at least soothes the concerns I voiced in this thread quite a bit. If you don't mind, I would like to keep discussing the "old vs new debate" regardless.
    Technically a reply to Kyle, but Kyle's post was a direct addition to yours. Also, like I've said before, I'm not against this approach, especially not since you guys talked about how much stuff is getting added. If anything, I thought the debate that came out of my original concern was interesting. I'm mostly playing devil's advocate, trying to weigh the pros and cons, and trying to spark debate. I don't mean to be offensive or rail against your approach.

    Also, I think StarCraft II compared to Brood War is a very subjective argument, like the former Clash of the Titans argument. I look at it differently. The core gameplay of StarCraft, according to Blizzard, is the multiplayer. In multiplayer Brood War, there were 42 units. Only 21 of these returned for StarCraft II multiplayer*. That's exactly 50%. And then of those returning units, a large amount of them were still completely redesigned in their unit roles or visually (Hydralisks, arguably the most iconic Zerg unit, went from main shock troops to support anti-air, or the new Crucio Siege Tank model compared to the old Arclite).

    Yet StarCraft II multiplayer has 45 units. So returning units make up less than half of the core StarCraft II units. Over half of StarCraft II units are completely new units, or in some cases redesigns of old units that became other units entirely, both the Immortal and the Stalker are redesigned Dragoons. Sometimes multiple units were even replaced by a single new unit, like the Hellion replacing both the Vulture's role and the Firebat at the same time. That's two iconic units cut out in favour of a single one.

    *Obviously, most of them returned in the campaign, but the campaign is essentially a different game, made out of many mini-games and gimmick missions where the core strategy gameplay didn't really matter. And most of them amounted to little more than cameos, and still some of them were completely redesigned. Like I said, it depends on how you look at it. A little note is that I'm not counting the Zerg Queen as a returning unit, because it is a completely different unit with the same name. Blizzard focuses on Multiplayer, and most of these units only returned because they were originally tested for multiplayer and then removed from it but the art assets recycled as filler. And it should be noted that most of these were so vastly inferior to their replacements that there were very few reasons to actually use them, which makes them mostly pointless cameos.

    Still, I know that you guys are striving to give even the Beetle a proper unit role and all, so I know that's been considered. Like I said, I'm just trying to see if we can come up with new ways of thinking about it and maybe finding room for improvement.

    A little more about the specific Orc example, what I meant with the Orc is that in Dungeon Keeper, he was a pallette swap of the Troll with some new details pasted on, to me that screams "hello I was rushed for development because we didn't have time to create something new" (being a game design student, I know the pressures of deadline crunch when it comes to making a game), and despite ending up being an extremely cool unit, that was mostly because he was an awesome creature gameplay wise (I suppose they were trying to make up for it's rushed design?), and his design just still seems lackluster to me. So why not make something that plays like the Orc, has the same unit role, but just replace the design with some other cool monster? Like has been stated in this thread, there are reasons not to do this (recognizability, fandom) but there's also reasons to do it (discovery, creativity). I presented it as something to think about, not something that HAS to be changed. Like I said, it's an awesome creature, but will I weep if it's replaced? No, I won't. Just like I didn't weep when the Defiler (the Zerg caster unit I used extensively in StarCraft) was replaced with the Infestor (a cooler looking Zerg caster unit I now use extensively in StarCraft II).

  10. #20
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    Quote Originally Posted by Funderbunk View Post
    Still, I know that you guys are striving to give even the Beetle a proper unit role and all, so I know that's been considered. Like I said, I'm just trying to see if we can come up with new ways of thinking about it and maybe finding room for improvement.
    It is interesting that you imply the Beetle is the most useless of Creatures, (I could be wrong on that, it just sounds that way based on the way you worded the first sentence) because I've actually found the Demon Spawn to be the most useless. The Beetle still has some things going for him, like his Freeze and Recovery Rate. He's still outclassed by the Spider, admittedly, but he has a lot of good potential use even so. Demon Spawn... I don't really see much usage on him. He's definately the one Unit that needs the most reworking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Funderbunk View Post
    A little more about the specific Orc example, what I meant with the Orc is that in Dungeon Keeper, he was a pallette swap of the Troll with some new details pasted on, to me that screams "hello I was rushed for development because we didn't have time to create something new" (being a game design student, I know the pressures of deadline crunch when it comes to making a game), and despite ending up being an extremely cool unit, that was mostly because he was an awesome creature gameplay wise (I suppose they were trying to make up for it's rushed design?), and his design just still seems lackluster to me. So why not make something that plays like the Orc, has the same unit role, but just replace the design with some other cool monster? Like has been stated in this thread, there are reasons not to do this (recognizability, fandom) but there's also reasons to do it (discovery, creativity). I presented it as something to think about, not something that HAS to be changed. Like I said, it's an awesome creature, but will I weep if it's replaced? No, I won't. Just like I didn't weep when the Defiler (the Zerg caster unit I used extensively in StarCraft) was replaced with the Infestor (a cooler looking Zerg caster unit I now use extensively in StarCraft II).
    I have to ask why do people always think of the Orc as a clone of the Troll? Perhaps the Troll's design is merely a rip off of the Orc?

    Anyways, I always figured they looked similar because they were related to each other. The Orc's ability to work in the Workshop also hinted that manufacturing was something that ran in the family. In that sense, I always found the Orc to be interesting as he had some kind of family relationship with the Troll. There aren't a lot of Units like that.
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