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Thread: Keeping Too Much?

  
  1. #1

    Default Keeping Too Much?

    Okay, I think I've read up on most relevant information now, and it's given me one concern about this project, one that some people may take as heresy but here goes:

    Are you guys keeping too much stuff from the previous games? I don't mean like the basic gameplay, of course the major gameplay elements should stay the same. (I'm happy that DK3, as it was being developed originally according to Ernest W. Adams, got canned, because the Overworld thing just didn't fit*) But specific elements like which rooms, traps, creatures, etc. seem relatively unchanged, for the most part. Even the designs of most things, as far as I've seen (admittedly, I haven't seen so much), seem extremely similar, often taken straight from the old games. It seems to me that this is keeping WftO from having it's own identity and from having that sense of discovery that made the original games so enjoyable.

    I know that everyone here loves the Dungeon Keeper games, and would love to keep as much as possible, but I'm beginning to feel that it's making this project into less an unofficial fan sequel, and more an unofficial fan remake turned expansion. I know there's new creatures and stuff, but they seem tacked on to the regular roster rather than equal parts of the creature pool. Every time there's a discussion on this board it often ends up being "pick between the way DK1 did it or the way DK2 did it". Of course, maybe this is less true behind the scenes, but I can't know that.

    For example, one of my favourite creatures in Dungeon Keeper is the Orc. It's powerful, fun to have, fun to possess, and serve a good purpose. Yet I have to admit, design wise, it's an incredibly dull creature. It's essentially a palette swapped Troll. Design wise, it could easily be replaced with some cool looking monster that has the same mechanics and purpose. Why does the project seem married to the specifics of Dungeon Keeper, rather than the feeling and purpose of Dungeon Keeper?

    Obviously there are things that are iconic to Dungeon Keeper at this point. Horny, the Mistress, the Bile Demon, the Knight, even the Dragon (the worst development decision in DK2 was removing the Dragon, I think). Some things you can't mess with, but occasionally this project I get the feeling that, being so very close to the originals, the people working on and following the development of it can't see the difference between things that are truly iconic and things that they are just very familiar with.

    Don't know where I'm going with this, just food for thought and discussion I suppose.

    *I recently met Ernest W. Adams, I'm a game design student and he was giving his famous lecture about Twinkie Denial Conditions. I briefly got to talk to him afterwards, and I found out that he actually agrees that the game concept he worked on would have been fun but it wouldn't have been very true to Dungeon Keeper, which is after all, about Dungeons built to kill the heroes in. The design mostly went that way because EA wanted a more traditional RTS and a direct sequel to DK2, hence the overworld combat with different sides.

    I'd have talked to him about this project, but I wasn't aware of it at the time, in fact it's that conversation that lead me to reinstalling the DK games and eventually stumbling unto this board.

    EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm not against using things from previous games at all. I'm just saying, if we've already got DK1 and DK2, we can always go back and play them. I would rather have a fresher new DK experience than one which resembles the old experience so much it seems a little stale before it's even gone into alpha.

    And of course, I just have this board and the website to go by. If it's different behind the scenes, that's not something I could have known before I posted this.
    Last edited by Funderbunk; October 11th, 2011 at 18:41.

  2. #2
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    It is true that many creatures and other ideas from especially DK1 are being reused for WftO. This is mostly to stay true to the fanbase, which generally favors DK1. Axing some creatures from DK1 for the sake of axing them leads to many of the problems DK2 had, such as like you mentioned they removed the Dragon, and the general lack of creativity the newcomers of DK2 had. We don't want issues with the fanbase, so we stay close to the originals.

    That said, WftO will definitely be a new experience for Dungeon Keeper fans. The engine will obviously have fundamental differences from both DK1* and DK2, and I'm hoping to ensure that WftO will not simply be seen as a clone of either previous game.

    *Assuming Metal Gear Rex doesn't get too much to say about design decisions in these matters.
    Last edited by Mothrayas; October 11th, 2011 at 18:42.

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  3. #3

    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    While I agree that the fanbase is important, I think following the fanbase exactly isn't the best idea. Maybe it's because I've been part of the Blizzard fanbase for so long, but with listening to the fanbase you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. What most fans want, basically, is to have the same experience they had the first time around. That's why they hold on to things very strongly. Especially the vocal minority. What they don't get is that you can't have the same experience you had before by keeping things the same, because you can't have that same sense of discovery, amusement with new things, and challenge by learning curve.

    I mean, I hope I don't offend people here by saying this, because I know the Blizzard fanbase has a terrible reputation (deservedly so), but I've seen traces of this behaviour on this board. For example, I read a discussion about picking up and dropping creatures, where many people wanted to have it the same as DK1 where you could only hold 8 creatures at a time, because that's how it was in DK1 and it was balanced better than unlimited picking up. This is exactly the same as StarCraft fans in the Blizzard fanbase crying foul when they found out you could select more units. Instead of calling for a new solution to the balance problems this creates, they called for a return of a technological engine limitation instead.

    The problem here is that fans are not game designers. I'm sure you guys have more than enough talent to design a game for DK1 fans without making it exactly like DK1.

    Just to clarify, this board is one of the smartest game communities I've come across so far and I'm definitely not trying to compare you guys to the Blizzard fanbase, and if I did, you guys would come out on top any day of the week.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    Axing some creatures from DK1 for the sake of axing them leads to many of the problems DK2 had, such as like you mentioned they removed the Dragon, and the general lack of creativity the newcomers of DK2 had.
    I see your point, but I don't think you're right in using it as reasoning for this particular decision. The problem with DK2 was not that they had axed so many creatures from DK1, it was that they had been replaced with creatures that were not as interesting. I have no problem with the Goblin replacing the boring Beetle, especially since the Goblin fits the basic Dungeon Keeper premise of the Standard Dungeon Crawl from the Dungeon's Point of View, but I do have a problem with losing the Dragon (iconic dungeon creature) to the dull and far too hero-like Dark Knight. Same with the Rogue, why is it there? Isn't a rogue a staple of a dungeon crawling adventurer party? I feel like I should be killing him. His presence in my dungeon goes completely against the basic premise of the game. And that's the big hole in Dungeon Keeper 2 and the part where you can see they made a big mistake in their design philosophy. They kept most iconic things from Dungeon Keeper 1 (I feel they did a decent job picking out what HAD to stay, although axing the Dragon was pretty dumb), but the things they added just weren't very interesting, and that's mostly because they lost sight of the basic premise and core value of the Dungeon Keeper franchise.

    I've said before, I'm seeing some extraordinary talent working on this project. I'm sure if you keep the core values of Dungeon Keeper, and things that are truly iconic, whatever else you do will be well received by the fanbase.

    Of course, there's always going to be some fans that won't be pleased, but there's no avoiding that. Ever. It's the risk of franchise work. Unpleasable Fanbase is it's own trope for a reason. Or maybe it's just my own jaded nature, or that I'm looking at this from under the guise of too much theoretical game design (as a game design student, I have plenty of my own biases).

    Still, it's cool that there will still be fresh cool stuff and gameplay elements. Like I said, I really like this project. It's awesome. I think it's almost everything a hardcore Dungeon Keeper fan could ask for. But I see the potential for it to be everything a Dungeon Keeper fan didn't know they wanted.
    Last edited by Funderbunk; October 11th, 2011 at 19:31.

  4. #4
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    Quote Originally Posted by Funderbunk View Post
    I've seen traces of this behaviour on this board. For example, I read a discussion about picking up and dropping creatures, where many people wanted to have it the same as DK1 where you could only hold 8 creatures at a time, because that's how it was in DK1 and it was balanced better than unlimited picking up. This is exactly the same as StarCraft fans in the Blizzard fanbase crying foul when they found out you could select more units. Instead of calling for a new solution to the balance problems this creates, they called for a return of a technological engine limitation instead.
    I think you may be making a misconception there, the choice to restrict the max amount of holding creatures to 8 is not to go back to DK1's technological limitations. It was for balance purposes. Having an unlimited amount of creatures holdable at once makes it too easy to instantly drop an entire army of creatures on any one spot, which would easily cause a lot of clutter when attacking an opponent. To find a solution to this issue, it was proposed to limit the max amount of holding creatures, simply because it's an easy fix to the issue.

    Of course, if you have any revolutionary better idea of your own, feel free to post that in the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Funderbunk View Post
    I see your point, but I don't think you're right in using it as reasoning for this particular decision. The problem with DK2 was not that they had axed so many creatures from DK1, it was that they had been replaced with creatures that were not as interesting. I have no problem with the Goblin replacing the boring Beetle, especially since the Goblin fits the basic Dungeon Keeper premise of the Standard Dungeon Crawl from the Dungeon's Point of View, but I do have a problem with losing the Dragon (iconic dungeon creature) to the dull and far too hero-like Dark Knight. Same with the Rogue, why is it there? Isn't a rogue a staple of a dungeon crawling adventurer party? I feel like I should be killing him. His presence in my dungeon goes completely against the basic premise of the game. And that's the big hole in Dungeon Keeper 2 and the part where you can see they made a big mistake in their design philosophy. They kept most iconic things from Dungeon Keeper 1 (I feel they did a decent job picking out what HAD to stay, although axing the Dragon was pretty dumb), but the things they added just weren't very interesting, and that's mostly because they lost sight of the basic premise and core value of the Dungeon Keeper franchise.
    Yes, I am aware that DK2's actual problem was that the replacement creatures were badly designed, but even disregarding that, removing iconic DK1 creatures, including some such as the orc, would still require replacing the roles they filled. And regardless of how good these new replacements would be, many fans would probably still consider the new ones Replacement Scrappies simply because of nostalgia reasons. Similarly to how you had issues with DK2 axing the Dragon, I suppose other fans would have issues if the Orc was axed for WftO. Or even the Tentacle, or the Hellhound. We would require some very good reasons to alienate parts of the fanbase by removing iconic creatures.

    Also, remember that while there will of course be a lot of classic stuff, there will also be tons of new content. We're not just doing what the old DK's did; we're doing more than that.

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  5. #5
    Mistress kyle's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    Quote Originally Posted by Funderbunk View Post
    While I agree that the fanbase is important, I think following the fanbase exactly isn't the best idea. Maybe it's because I've been part of the Blizzard fanbase for so long, but with listening to the fanbase you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. What most fans want, basically, is to have the same experience they had the first time around. That's why they hold on to things very strongly. Especially the vocal minority. What they don't get is that you can't have the same experience you had before by keeping things the same, because you can't have that same sense of discovery, amusement with new things, and challenge by learning curve.

    I mean, I hope I don't offend people here by saying this, because I know the Blizzard fanbase has a terrible reputation (deservedly so), but I've seen traces of this behaviour on this board. For example, I read a discussion about picking up and dropping creatures, where many people wanted to have it the same as DK1 where you could only hold 8 creatures at a time, because that's how it was in DK1 and it was balanced better than unlimited picking up. This is exactly the same as StarCraft fans in the Blizzard fanbase crying foul when they found out you could select more units. Instead of calling for a new solution to the balance problems this creates, they called for a return of a technological engine limitation instead.

    The problem here is that fans are not game designers. I'm sure you guys have more than enough talent to design a game for DK1 fans without making it exactly like DK1.

    Just to clarify, this board is one of the smartest game communities I've come across so far and I'm definitely not trying to compare you guys to the Blizzard fanbase, and if I did, you guys would come out on top any day of the week.



    I see your point, but I don't think you're right in using it as reasoning for this particular decision. The problem with DK2 was not that they had axed so many creatures from DK1, it was that they had been replaced with creatures that were not as interesting. I have no problem with the Goblin replacing the boring Beetle, especially since the Goblin fits the basic Dungeon Keeper premise of the Standard Dungeon Crawl from the Dungeon's Point of View, but I do have a problem with losing the Dragon (iconic dungeon creature) to the dull and far too hero-like Dark Knight. Same with the Rogue, why is it there? Isn't a rogue a staple of a dungeon crawling adventurer party? I feel like I should be killing him. His presence in my dungeon goes completely against the basic premise of the game. And that's the big hole in Dungeon Keeper 2 and the part where you can see they made a big mistake in their design philosophy. They kept most iconic things from Dungeon Keeper 1 (I feel they did a decent job picking out what HAD to stay, although axing the Dragon was pretty dumb), but the things they added just weren't very interesting, and that's mostly because they lost sight of the basic premise and core value of the Dungeon Keeper franchise.

    I've said before, I'm seeing some extraordinary talent working on this project. I'm sure if you keep the core values of Dungeon Keeper, and things that are truly iconic, whatever else you do will be well received by the fanbase.

    Of course, there's always going to be some fans that won't be pleased, but there's no avoiding that. Ever. It's the risk of franchise work. Unpleasable Fanbase is it's own trope for a reason. Or maybe it's just my own jaded nature, or that I'm looking at this from under the guise of too much theoretical game design (as a game design student, I have plenty of my own biases).

    Still, it's cool that there will still be fresh cool stuff and gameplay elements. Like I said, I really like this project. It's awesome. I think it's almost everything a hardcore Dungeon Keeper fan could ask for. But I see the potential for it to be everything a Dungeon Keeper fan didn't know they wanted.
    As the leader of WFTO take it from me when I say this game will feel like a new experience that builds on the greatness of the previous games. What we've done is looked at the two games, seen which one had the best gameplay in terms of balance and fun and then built upon it, removing what needs to be removed and adding features we thought would be cool, such as our tech tree.

    The game will play like a dungeon keeper.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    No no, I am aware that it's supposed to be a balance fix. I even said so. But in fact, the original post and poll was not about fixing the balance problem. It was split into the choice, do it like DK1 or do it like DK2. There are reasons why the engine limitation worked balance wise (to a certain degree anyway, it was still unbalanced), and I know it's an easily implementable fix. But fact remains is that it wasn't offered as a choice or picked because it was a possible fix for this balance issue, but because that's how it worked in DK1 and people were choosing, not thinking.

    As for solutions, I don't have one right now, but I'm sure that it's possible to come up with something and I'm also sure that, between the many talented people working on this project, there has got to be a better idea than reaching back to a design relic from a foregone age. Maybe it has been discussed in more depth than that thread behind the screens, but going just by the thread it seemed like an example of poor game design decision making. It's like if the guys making the Doom games went "hey, remember when we made our players go back and forth through the levels because the door was on one side and the switch was on the other? We should do that again!". Because with this, you're making the player go back and forth between their creatures and their playing field in a repetive, grindy action that doesn't really add to their enjoyment of the game. That's not fun, and it's the game designer's job to take out the things that are not fun. Also, it allows the faster clicking gamers (i.e. "twitch gamers") to gain an advantage (in an RTS, no less), and those fast clicking players will still be fast enough to create a lot of clutter once they familiarise themselves with the GUI, so as far as solutions go it's a pretty poor bandaid.

    Maybe that discussion is better fit to that thread, but I didn't want to necropost.

    And I don't think that the simple act of axing a creature will alienate a large part of the fanbase. I hate to bring up StarCraft again, but when the iconic Lurker (among others) was cut from SC2, the community cried foul, screamed, ranted and ultimately... bought several million copies of the game. People will always be resistent to change, but they will come around if your product is good enough. I think it shows rather poor faith in your own product to think people wont. (And remarkably poor faith to think you and the rest of your team can't come up with something more iconic and interesting than the Tentacle.)

    EDIT: Kyle posted like I was typing. Kyle, I hope you don't think I'm being overly critical, and I of course don't have the full picture, and I'm glad you guys are doing this project. Like I said, it's everything a Dungeon Keeper fan would want. I'm just providing food for thought, looking if there's room for improvement in things that seem like they haven't been considered. It was actually not my intention to debate specific elements, although I seem to have already derailed my own thread with that. I'm just concerned that all this hard work may go to waste if it the final thing ends up being (or even just looking) dated before it's even finished.

    Also, I'm not just looking for developer feedback but community dicussion as well. I'm interested in seeing the fanbase reaction, after all.
    Last edited by Funderbunk; October 11th, 2011 at 21:10.

  7. #7
    Hellhound Blutonium's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    New Story.
    New Engine.
    New Intro.
    New Menu.
    New Creatures.
    New Hero's.
    New Mentor.
    New GUI.
    New Spells.
    New Rooms.
    New Secrets.
    New Tech Tree.
    New Tomb of Evil.
    New Traps.
    New Levels.
    New Music.
    New Sounds.
    New Main Screen Map.
    New Cinematics.
    New Neutral Creatures.
    New Models.
    New Animations.
    New Stats.
    New Achievements & Unlockables.
    New Effects.
    New Bosses.
    New Easter Eggs.
    New Multiplayer Modes.

    This is no DK1 remake mate.... not by a long shot


    Sure, it contains a lot of what DK is and has many of the same characters - but isn't that what we all want? Isn't that what makes DK great?

    PS: NOBODY can come up with something more iconic and interesting than the Awesome tentacle. Einstein himself said the design of the Tentacle is flawless and perfect.
    Last edited by Blutonium; October 11th, 2011 at 22:46.

  8. #8
    Bile Demon natchoguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    tech-tree? what tech-tree, and what tomb of evil? I feel really behind now but at least I understand the rest of the stuff.

  9. #9
    Mistress kyle's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    Like We've said, there's a lot of shit you guys don't know about that we are planning, and it's the "tome of evil" not tomb of evil. You guys will learn more about the features if they make it in towards the future.

  10. #10
    Bile Demon natchoguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    oh goodie i can't wait. Bluto it's not good to tease with spoilers :P

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