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Thread: [Split] Discussion on hand creature limit and gamer skill

  
  1. #11
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    What, you mean they aren't balanced?

    I suppose we have different standards of what is "balanced" then.

    (Unless you were talking about chaingrab infinites, which is a different case entirely)


    I'm sorry but that deserved a Donkey Kong so much. I know you know that that is exactly what I meant when I referenced SSB.

    Judging by the fact that you're not even bothering to try and reply to the actual topic and instead want to pick at the wording I used for a reference, I'm going to presume you withdraw your arguements.
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  2. #12
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    Judging by the fact that you're not even bothering to try and reply to the actual topic and instead want to pick at the wording I used for a reference, I'm going to presume you withdraw your arguements.
    Your presumption is, bluntly put, dumb. Seriously.

    And how about you get the term right rather than pulling Donkey Kong out of your ass.



    Chaingrab infinites it is then. I have been part of the SSBM/SSBB competitive community for quite a while (back in around 2006-2009), and I only know of two chaingrab infinites so far which actually meant anything.

    • King Dedede's down throw chaingrab in SSBB. Caused problems with being an easy infinite on about 2/3rds of the cast, but only in stages that had open ends or walls, which both are generally disliked in the competitive community anyway, so stages like that don't appear in competitive gameplay (and even then it's situational anyway). I fail to see the relevance with anything here.
    • Ice Climber's infinite chaingrabs. I find it funny because these are perfectly legal techniques - and yet Ice Climbers aren't top tier. You know why? Because it required skill to pull off. Perfect example of a chaingrab infinite considered balanced by a competitive community. What was your point again?

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  3. #13
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    Your presumption is, bluntly put, dumb. Seriously.



    Chaingrab infinites it is then. I have been part of the SSBM/SSBB competitive community for quite a while (back in around 2006-2008), and I only know of two chaingrab infinites so far which actually meant anything.

    • King Dedede's down throw chaingrab in SSBB. Caused problems with being an easy infinite on about 2/3rds of the cast, but only in stages that had open ends or walls, which both are generally disliked in the competitive community anyway, so stages like that don't appear in competitive gameplay (and even then it's situational anyway). I fail to see the relevance with anything here.
    • Ice Climber's infinite chaingrabs. I find it funny because these are perfectly legal techniques - and yet Ice Climbers aren't top tier. You know why? Because it required skill to pull off. Perfect example of a chaingrab infinite considered balanced by a competitive community. What was your point again?
    I love how you're putting so much effort to argue something that isn't too relevant to the actual discussion. Regardless of whether I was wrong to reference SSB or not, it doesn't change the fact that an 8 Hand Limit is not a good solution for stopping Players from dropping entire armies down all at once. They still can if they're fast enough, and that puts faster players at an unfair advantage.

    (Also, I don't know how abusable exploits can be considered balanced. It doesn't matter if the character is bad as it doesn't make the exploits any more balanced)
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  4. #14
    Mistress kyle's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    Guy's can you take this to chat this topic was never meant to be used as an argument thread.

  5. #15
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    I love how you're putting so much effort to argue something that isn't too relevant to the actual discussion. Regardless of whether I was wrong to reference SSB or not, it doesn't change the fact that an 8 Hand Limit is not a good solution for stopping Players from dropping entire armies down all at once. They still can if they're fast enough, and that puts faster players at an unfair advantage.
    So, let me get this straight. Gamers having skill is an "unfair advantage", because their ability to react fast is unfair.

    I swear to god I would not even play the game if the skill involved when playing is literally brought down to zero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    (Also, I don't know how abusable exploits can be considered balanced. It doesn't matter if the character is bad as it doesn't make the exploits any more balanced)
    So you see, this gets back to the whole thing - you just have a different idea of what is considered "balanced" than me. Or the Smash Back Room. Or the rest of the SSB competitive community.

    And uh, who is bad now? I don't see that being part of the point anywhere.

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  6. #16
    Keeper of Keepers dotted's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    They still can if they're fast enough, and that puts faster players at an advantage.
    FTFY
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  7. #17

    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    So, let me get this straight. Gamers having skill is an "unfair advantage", because their ability to react fast is unfair.

    I swear to god I would not even play the game if the skill involved when playing is literally brought down to zero.



    So you see, this gets back to the whole thing - you just have a different idea of what is considered "balanced" than me. Or the Smash Back Room. Or the rest of the SSB competitive community.

    And uh, who is bad now? I don't see that being part of the point anywhere.
    I certainly hope it's just a bad joke when you compare Super Smash and Dungeon Keeper when talking about game design because it is the most ridiculous comparison I've ever heard, and this is coming from someone who hears ridiculous game design talk every other day. Obviously, action games like Super Smash Brothers are a test of twitch reactions. It's the fast twitch reactions and accurate movement that is the major driving force behind an action game and in these games, this skill is what is rewarded.

    Strategy games like Dungeon Keeper require the exact opposite approach - it's the strategic players you want to reward, not the twitch gamers. You're wrong when you imply that my point was that fast reactions are unfair in any way. It's just that you're rewarding twitch gamers, who can react fast physically, with an advantage over strategic gamers, who can react fast strategically. Guess which one is the core audience of this Real Time Strategy game.

    I mean, obviously there's no way to get rid of this divide entirely, but ideally, fast physical reactions (which you seem to define as 'skill') would only matter in a game where two opponents strategically match each other.

  8. #18
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    Quote Originally Posted by Funderbunk View Post
    I certainly hope it's just a bad joke when you compare Super Smash and Dungeon Keeper when talking about game design because it is the most ridiculous comparison I've ever heard, and this is coming from someone who hears ridiculous game design talk every other day. Obviously, action games like Super Smash Brothers are a test of twitch reactions. It's the fast twitch reactions and accurate movement that is the major driving force behind an action game and in these games, this skill is what is rewarded.

    Strategy games like Dungeon Keeper require the exact opposite approach - it's the strategic players you want to reward, not the twitch gamers. You're wrong when you imply that my point was that fast reactions are unfair in any way. It's just that you're rewarding twitch gamers, who can react fast physically, with an advantage over strategic gamers, who can react fast strategically. Guess which one is the core audience of this Real Time Strategy game.

    I mean, obviously there's no way to get rid of this divide entirely, but ideally, fast physical reactions (which you seem to define as 'skill') would only matter in a game where two opponents strategically match each other.
    Dude.

    I didn't make that comparison. Rex did.





    Besides, more than enough RTSes exist that require fast button-pressing or mouse clicking or fast physical reaction. Ever played Supreme Commander?
    Conversely, action games like Smash Brothers also require a degree of strategy and planning on a competitive level. Hey, it's SSBM and I'm playing Puff and the opponent is Marth. How am I going to approach? And how am I going to space correctly?

    Also, if strategy is more important as you say, then the strategic player will still beat the "twitch" player, as you like to call it. This one little instance will most certainly not shake the game up to a buttonbash fest. Be realistic.
    Last edited by Mothrayas; October 12th, 2011 at 21:29.

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  9. #19

    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    Oh, yes I see. In that case I apologize. I misread.

    Regardless, I don't think you should brush of a legitimite concern so easily by saying "it won't matter THAT much". And I have player Supreme Commander (I'm surprised you didn't mention the StarCraft Progaming Circuit instead, this threw me for a loop for a bit, actually) and your assessment of it, while having some merit, doesn't hold true in this case. It requires fast strategic actions, the speed at which you press the buttons means very little unless, like I said, the opponents are evenly matched. Someone who plays very fast but still does the wrong things will obviously lose.

    And it's true that Super Smash Brothers also require strategy on a competetive level, but this is mostly because on a competetive level the basic skill of a game is pretty even and it's the depth of a game that defines the winner. Like playing an RTS competetively means ideally twitch will only make a difference between evenly matched players, the opposite holds true for action games where strategy will make the difference between otherwise evenly matched players.

    Also, the competetive scene is MUCH MORE affected by small balance factors such as what we've been discussing this whole time precisely because it's competetive and competetive players will try to understand and gain advantage over other players any way they can. For example, in StarCraft II (I follow this as an e-Sport, hence me bringing it up all the time, apologies for being repetitive) they completely changed the way competetive Protoss players play the game by adding ten seconds to the construction time of a building. This one little instance will most certainly not shake the game up, as you've said, but a competetive player will have most likely found more than one instance, they will know the game inside out and use and abuse small balance things like this to the point it culuminatively changes everything. The higher the level of play, the more a small imbalance such as this will matter.
    Last edited by Funderbunk; October 12th, 2011 at 22:01.

  10. #20
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    Okay, if I got it correctly, you're meaning to say that click speed only makes a difference when both players are equal on a strategy level in a strategy, and vice versa in an action game.

    So, where's the problem? If a player wins in an RTS game by faster button handling while being equally good at strategy, it means he has slightly larger skills in playing the game. Note that RTS stands for Real-Time strategy. Real time. You're taking your actions in real time - if you're faster at executing these actions, you deserve to have an edge over someone who may be equally strategic but takes 20 seconds to move the mouse a quarter way across the screen. A mindset wherein execution speed does not matter period contradicts the meaning of RTS. If you want to make strategic decisions at your leisure, go play Turn-Based Strategy games instead. Or chess.

    Also, I never played or followed any StarCraft game (sue me), so please elaborate on the last paragraph more, please. Who added ten seconds to Protoss building construction time (I'm assuming a patch did, but please be more clear)? In comparison to what? How will this "small imbalance" have more (or less) of an effect on higher level play?

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