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Thread: [Split] Discussion on hand creature limit and gamer skill

  
  1. #21
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    Quote Originally Posted by Funderbunk View Post
    I certainly hope it's just a bad joke when you compare Super Smash and Dungeon Keeper when talking about game design because it is the most ridiculous comparison I've ever heard, and this is coming from someone who hears ridiculous game design talk every other day. Obviously, action games like Super Smash Brothers are a test of twitch reactions. It's the fast twitch reactions and accurate movement that is the major driving force behind an action game and in these games, this skill is what is rewarded.
    Yes as Mothrayas stated, that was me who made the comparison. Perhaps it wasn't the best comparison considering the reactions of both you and Mothrayas, but it was the first comparison that came to mind at the time.

    The comparison itself had nothing to do with what type of game, but rather, the comparison had to do with comparing a bad solution to an abusable exploit. The 8 Hand Limit is a poor solution for preventing a Player from dropping an army down all at once as any Player who is fast can do that anyways. Saying it requires skill doesn't make it any better of a solution. In that regard, I compared it to calling an abusable exploit balanced simply because it required a lot of skill to pull off. A requirement of high "skill" and speed doesn't change the fact that the 8 Hand Limit fails to do what it was supposed to do, nor does it make an abusable exploit any less of an exploit that can be abused.

    Quote Originally Posted by Funderbunk View Post
    Strategy games like Dungeon Keeper require the exact opposite approach - it's the strategic players you want to reward, not the twitch gamers. You're wrong when you imply that my point was that fast reactions are unfair in any way. It's just that you're rewarding twitch gamers, who can react fast physically, with an advantage over strategic gamers, who can react fast strategically. Guess which one is the core audience of this Real Time Strategy game.

    I mean, obviously there's no way to get rid of this divide entirely, but ideally, fast physical reactions (which you seem to define as 'skill') would only matter in a game where two opponents strategically match each other.
    I have to agree with this pretty much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    Also, if strategy is more important as you say, then the strategic player will still beat the "twitch" player, as you like to call it. This one little instance will most certainly not shake the game up to a buttonbash fest. Be realistic.
    Generally, the faster Player will hold the upperhand in battle when it comes to dealing a powerful first strike as they can drop all their Units down before an enemy can. It does give them an advantage, especially if they use a lot of Heavy Hitters and Burst Damage Support. That strong first strike can definately turn the tide of a battle and definately will lead to a Player being capable of defeating an enemy in some situations, regardless of whether he is strategically better or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    Okay, if I got it correctly, you're meaning to say that click speed only makes a difference when both players are equal on a strategy level in a strategy, and vice versa in an action game.
    You didn't get it correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Funderbunk View Post
    I mean, obviously there's no way to get rid of this divide entirely, but ideally, fast physical reactions (which you seem to define as 'skill') would only matter in a game where two opponents strategically match each other.
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  2. #22
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    You didn't get it correctly.
    Please elaborate, my sentence looks pretty damn close in meaning, to his post. Now you're just posting against for the sake of posting against.



    Other than the word "ideally". Also, I noticed you didn't bother replying to the rest of my last post. Let me put this in a beautiful post constructed by yourself.

    Judging by the fact that you're not even bothering to try and reply to the actual topic and instead want to pick at the wording I used for a reference, I'm going to presume you withdraw your arguements.
    Last edited by Mothrayas; October 13th, 2011 at 07:36.

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  3. #23
    Hellhound Searingflame2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    Starcraft 2 is indeed a perfect example of an RTS (even if I don't like it :3)

    There is an unfathomable level to strategy to everything, which is why something as seemingly insignificant as a 10 second increase in a buildings construction time can completely change the meta game for people. This goes hand in hand with the notion of 'twitch gaming', however. If the average APM of a SC2 player was the same as a DK1 player, then 10 seconds would make all of no difference at all, because DK is a COUCH POTATO GAME comparatively. In SC2, if you want to play Zergs competitively, you need to have at least 280 (I think, don't quote me) so the 10 seconds making a gargantuan difference.

    Directly on topic, an 8 hand limit would be ideal IF AND ONLY IF you give hotkeys for picking up creatures. I don't think the idea of HOTKEYS BEING A MAJOR SYMBOL OF SKILL EVERYWHERE is a stretch of the imagination. If priority of hotkeys is given to spells or rooms or other functions, however, the limit should be higher - 12-16, as previous mentioned, perhaps.

    Rewarding people for slouching in their chair less is a GOOD THING. Reward "twitch gamers", they deserve it.

  4. #24
    Mistress kyle's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    Well we did have discussions about that, and we are already adding hotkeys to the game for spells, we also had ideas for a quick cast bar, where your favorite functions could be binded to a bar lower down. the latter was only an idea however, kind of like the league of legends type of casting.

  5. #25
    Hellhound Searingflame2's Avatar
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    Default Re: [Split] Discussion on hand creature limit and gamer skill

    Sounds good to me. Edit: [Hypothetically] Would the quick bar be versatile enough for me to bind, say "Pick up highest level Dragon"?

    You could maintain a low hand pool and add a layer of skill to boot.

  6. #26
    Mistress kyle's Avatar
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    Default Re: [Split] Discussion on hand creature limit and gamer skill

    Well technically we could design it to do whatever want, so we probably would allow you to do something like that.

  7. #27
    Hellhound Searingflame2's Avatar
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    Default Re: [Split] Discussion on hand creature limit and gamer skill

    Well, the concept sure as hell has my vote, for what it's worth.

  8. #28
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    Please elaborate, my sentence looks pretty damn close in meaning, to his post.
    From what you posted, it appeared as if you thought he said we were currently in a scenario where the Player's speed will only matter when they are both strategically equal. However, that is not the case. What he said was that that would be the ideal scenario to be in, not that it was true to the current scenario.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    Now you're just posting against for the sake of posting against.
    Not at all. Accusing me of such isn't going to make my points any less true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    Also, I noticed you didn't bother replying to the rest of my last post.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    So, where's the problem? If a player wins in an RTS game by faster button handling while being equally good at strategy, it means he has slightly larger skills in playing the game. Note that RTS stands for Real-Time strategy. Real time. You're taking your actions in real time - if you're faster at executing these actions, you deserve to have an edge over someone who may be equally strategic but takes 20 seconds to move the mouse a quarter way across the screen. A mindset wherein execution speed does not matter period contradicts the meaning of RTS. If you want to make strategic decisions at your leisure, go play Turn-Based Strategy games instead. Or chess.
    That was an unneccessary attachment of what you said in the small paragraph right above it, so I decided to cut it out at the time of the posting. Even if I did reply to it, it would get a very similar response to part of your previous post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    Generally, the faster Player will hold the upperhand in battle when it comes to dealing a powerful first strike as they can drop all their Units down before an enemy can. It does give them an advantage, especially if they use a lot of Heavy Hitters and Burst Damage Support. That strong first strike can definately turn the tide of a battle and definately will lead to a Player being capable of defeating an enemy in some situations, regardless of whether he is strategically better or not.
    I felt it would be a bit repetitive to include a response to this as well considering both replies would be within the same post, so I didn't bother try and reply to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    Also, I never played or followed any StarCraft game (sue me), so please elaborate on the last paragraph more, please. Who added ten seconds to Protoss building construction time (I'm assuming a patch did, but please be more clear)? In comparison to what? How will this "small imbalance" have more (or less) of an effect on higher level play?
    This is obviously something directed at Funderbunk, requesting him to explain further. Therefore, I see no reason to reply to this part of the post. I myself have never played or followed any StarCraft game so I wouldn't be able to tell you anything useful either.

    There, happy now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    Let me put this in a beautiful post constructed by yourself.
    I said that because you didn't bother to continue arguing against any of my main points at all. Instead, you started arguing about my use of a reference, which you may or may not have fully understood. You dropped practically the entire arguement instantly, which made it appear as if you were withdrawing your arguements.

    I, on the otherhand, did not drop the main arguement. You can see this in the post I have made above.

    Since you're complaining about me not replying to parts of your post, I must ask you why you didn't bother to reply to the main arguement I made and instead decided to make a false accusion and a failed attempt to use my own quote against me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Searingflame2 View Post
    Rewarding people for slouching in their chair less is a GOOD THING. Reward "twitch gamers", they deserve it.
    Faster Players already reward themselves when it comes to reaching maximum efficiency when building a dungeon. In battle, however, they shouldn't be rewarded too much because the outcome of the battles mean a lot. As I previously stated, it could lead to situations where they win simply because they're faster and not because they're strategically better than their opponent.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyle View Post
    Well we did have discussions about that, and we are already adding hotkeys to the game for spells, we also had ideas for a quick cast bar, where your favorite functions could be binded to a bar lower down. the latter was only an idea however, kind of like the league of legends type of casting.
    I don't remember such a discussion. Is it one of the older ones or did I simply miss out? Though my only concern is having enough hotkeys to impliment this idea properly. I do recall we'd need a fair amount of hotkeys for other things as well. But I'm sure we can figure out a way to make it all work out very well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Searingflame2 View Post
    Sounds good to me. Edit: [Hypothetically] Would the quick bar be versatile enough for me to bind, say "Pick up highest level Dragon"?

    You could maintain a low hand pool and add a layer of skill to boot.
    DK2 involved use of holding Control and Alt when it came to selecting highest or lowest leveled Units. (I don't remember which was used for which) Could do something like that if we do go through with the idea.
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  9. #29
    Mistress kyle's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    It was along the lines of, you select which spells you want to hotkey, because let's be honest, you're going to hotkey the spells you use most, like heal and such, not the really expensive ones like destroy wall.

    As for the quick bar thing, you could Alt click+drag the creatures profile onto the quick bar and have it function like that.

  10. #30
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping Too Much?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyle View Post
    It was along the lines of, you select which spells you want to hotkey, because let's be honest, you're going to hotkey the spells you use most, like heal and such, not the really expensive ones like destroy wall.

    As for the quick bar thing, you could Alt click+drag the creatures profile onto the quick bar and have it function like that.
    Seems like an efficient way to get the hotkeys set up in a way that fits the preferences of different Players. Perhaps hotkeys could be utilized to also tweak the power level of a Spell?
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