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Thread: News on the direction WftO

  
  1. #21

    Default Re: News on the direction WftO

    Kyle is right, if the only superficially similar Dungeons gets to have a sub-forum, this new iteration of the WftO project definitely has the same right.

    You people are acting like it's not a successor to Dungeon Keeper at all anymore, but it is. It's a spiritual successor, but a successor nonetheless, being made by DK fans for DK fans. With a strong connection like that, it definately has a place on this board.

  2. #22
    Vampire MeinCookie's Avatar
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    Default Re: News on the direction WftO

    Quote Originally Posted by MeinCookie View Post
    Dungeons? That will undoubtedly be less like DK then WftO, its a passable game to boot, yet we reserve a place.
    Did I not say that at the very start of the previous page? Talk about talking around in circles much.
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  3. #23

    Default Re: News on the direction WftO

    Quote Originally Posted by kyle View Post
    I think it's pretty stupid to say we don't have a place here when really we are a spiritual successor. If people are looking for a DK game, they're going to find everything they want in our game and more. Heck, we certianley have more of a place here than dungeons does, and dungeons has a section on the forum
    I'm sorry you felt it necessary to be insulting - clearly it's a sore point.

    However - let's look at your two points dispassionately shall we?

    You say that you are going to produce a DK game. In his original post Mentor says "we should not be using Dungeon Keeper’s IP and instead developing a completely new game that does not step on EA’s toes" ... I not sure how the two statements can be reconciled? It's clearly NOT going to be a DK game that you guys are going to produce - it says so in the original post.

    If it's a DK style game, in game play if not in art, then EA can claim you have infringed their IP. And if you continue using this forum to assist your development that would be a strong point in their favor.

    Look at it this way: Freeciv (just to take an example) gets away with being a clone of Civ 2 because it's FREE. If you guys elect to go commercial then that protection no longer applies ... and that means you're going to have to steer even further away from anything DK-like.

    As to your comment about Dungeons ... there is a section here for the fans to discuss Dungeons. Realmforge Studios aren't using the KK forum to assist them in their development the way you guys have been in the past. I imagine that if you guys produce something that's sufficiently DK-like to warrant it, then there would be a section of the forum for the fans to discuss what you've produced. BUT (assuming you go commercial) it would NOT be under Fanmade Games ... it'd be under Games.

    I'm not suprised that you chose to have a go at me rather than Patrician, but I'm more than a little suprised at your vehemence on this issue Kyle. It seems to me that you can't continue to be a 'spirtual successor to Dungeon Keeper' if you are not producing a DK game. Please explain how that can be and why the KK should continue to provide you with a forum to assist in your development, and why the fans of DUNGEON KEEPER should assist by providing ideas?

    The logical alternative is to host your own forum, which would be far safer for you anyway, given that you want to avoid legal entanglements with EA.

    *edit* Somehow lost the last sentence.
    Last edited by Doormat; November 13th, 2011 at 21:18.

  4. #24
    WFTO - Lead Producer kyle's Avatar
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    Default Re: News on the direction WftO

    We already have our own forum and I thought you meant our existence on this forum at all was questionable. We haven't moved over to the new forum yet as it's being assembled, so yea.

    Oh and as for making a FREE game based on another companies IP. You can still get shut down and told to stop all assets. A lot of people think that you just make it free and EA can't touch you, but it's a very silly thing to even assume. Not saying that's what you said, but a lot of people are just assuming EA are going to let us go on ahead even though we have spoke to certian employees, and based on information I have learned there is very little to no chance of us obtaining the IP and we are more likely to receive a C&D order and lose all the work we've put in.

    and by dungeon keeper game, I'm not just referencing to the dungeon keeper aesthetic, which is definatley not the reason the majority of people play it for. I'm talking about the gameplay, in our game I believe you're going to find all the Dungeon Keeper gameplay that you wanted and more to replace the more broken design choices that were made in the original games. On top of some new fresh ideas of our own.

    and also I'm a little confused on what you mean by "can't be a spiritual successor to Dungeon Keeper if we aren't a Dungeon Keeper game", if you're implying that we have to be related to dungeons keeper universe at all to be a spiritual successor then that's not correct, look at "Evil Genius" to see what a spiritual successor is.

    You can read this for more information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_successor#Games, fallout's origin in particular is interesting.
    Last edited by kyle; November 13th, 2011 at 21:39.

  5. #25

    Default Re: News on the direction WftO

    Quote Originally Posted by kyle View Post
    We already have our own forum and I thought you meant our existence on this forum at all was questionable. We haven't moved over to the new forum yet as it's being assembled, so yea.

    Oh and as for making a FREE game based on another companies IP. You can still get shut down and told to stop all assets. A lot of people think that you just make it free and EA can't touch you, but it's a very silly thing to even assume. Not saying that's what you said, but a lot of people are just assuming EA are going to let us go on ahead even though we have spoke to certian employees, and based on information I have learned there is very little to no chance of us obtaining the IP and we are more likely to receive a C&D order and lose all the work we've put in.

    and by dungeon keeper game, I'm not just referencing to the dungeon keeper aesthetic, which is definatley not the reason the majority of people play it for. I'm talking about the gameplay, in our game I believe you're going to find all the Dungeon Keeper gameplay that you wanted and more to replace the more broken design choices that were made in the original games. On top of some new fresh ideas of our own.

    and also I'm a little confused on what you mean by "can't be a spiritual successor to Dungeon Keeper if we aren't a Dungeon Keeper game", if you're implying that we have to be related to dungeons keeper universe at all to be a spiritual successor then that's not correct, look at "Evil Genius" to see what a spiritual successor is.

    You can read this for more information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_successor#Games, fallout's origin in particular is interesting.
    G'day

    Sorry about the delay in reply - but being on the on the other side of the planet tends to make out for long drawn-out conversations. I'm responding to your post in summary rather than replying to each sentence directly ... hopefully that won't cause any confusion.

    Spiritual Successor is a chancy term ... it's too subjective. I personally consider Startopia to be the spiritual successor to DK - but I readily acknowledge that many might not agree and even if they do, it's clear that Startopia doesn't merit it's own presence here on KK. (PLEASE ... let's not discuss this opinion in this thread ... we shouldn't derail this very important subject)

    However - my interpretation of 'Spiritual Successor' in terms of Keeper Klan is a game which is very much like DK in terms of both gameplay and aesthetic. In other words from the perspective of this, a fan site about 2 specific games (not a broader genre of games), we're talking about a clone or extrapolation of DK 1 and/or 2. Until recently WftO fell into that category. Apparently it doesn't now?

    It may be that EA won't permit such a game to be made - your decision seems to be a pretty good indication that that is the case. If so - it's very sad given that, like many, I very very much want to play an up-to-date Dungeon Keeper. I may be wrong, but from the OP of this thread it seems that is now not what you are making. Please don't mistake what I'm saying ... you may well build something that is better than DK/DKII ... you may well build something which captures the essential spirit which make DK/DKII so cool (I really hope you do - I'll buy it for sure) but the point remains that it won't be an up-to-date version of DK which I believe was the original goal.

    As you correctly noted - I didn't say that making the game free would mean you wouldn't get into hassles with EA. In fact ... I have been very careful not to touch on that side of things. But I did note that those games which have avoided being wiped out due to IP infringement were the ones which are free. If it's not free - it's almost 100% certain that C&D and/or a lawsuit will follow. I have NO opinion on whether or not you should go commercial - I don't know the facts and it's none of my business anyway.

    And Kyle - when you " " something I said, please make it an actual quote of my words, not a paraphrase. Anyway - I believe I've covered the point, and in that you're moving your development to a new forum, I'm not sure if there's actually any issue at hand anyway.

  6. #26

    Default Re: News on the direction WftO

    I'd like to weigh in on the legal side, Gameplay principles and aesthetics can't be copyrighted or trademarked. Only specific designs and names. Clear link or no. It's why Bethesda could sue Scrolls because it infringed on their trademark for The Elder Scrolls, but the guys who made Castle Crusher couldn't sue Angry Birds even though they took the same game and just gave it a different look.

    Considering EA took no notice of Dungeons I'd say this project is safe. In fact, judging the fate of projects like Bid For Power, I'm sure this project is now much more secure than it was before.

    As for making a Dungeon Keeper game, the way I see it, nothing has changed. It was never going to be the true Dungeon Keeper sequel. Only the creators of Dungeon Keeper could make a true sequel (even the second real Dungeon Keeper game failed somewhat). The best we could have hoped for anyway is Fallout 3. Good game, but it's just not the originals. This way, we can enjoy a cool experience like it, without the baggage and expectations of the actual franchise.

    Also, like has been repeated several times, Dungeons has a place on this board. I fail to see why this shouldn't. I also think saying it doesn't fit Keeper Klan is a pretty huge case of tunnel vision. This change did make sure it's not a Dungeon Keeper game, but it didn't change anything about it's status as the Keeper Klan Community Game.

  7. #27
    Administrator Patrician's Avatar
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    Default Re: News on the direction WftO

    Just a few things I think I should say seeing as I seem to have poked the bee hive on this one:

    To be clear I don't question that WftO could be the "spiritual successor" to DK (as the main concepts are going to be incorporated).
    As for questioning the project's place on the forum, I wanted to see what other people thought about the recent developments and how that affected KK's relationship with the project. From the responses here it seems that overwhelming support is for WftO to remain in its current position under fan-made games when/if the project becomes a non-DK IP commercial venture.
    An unimportant side-note to those using the fact that Dungeons has a place here as an argument: I personally never authorised its inclusion on the forum. Although I have also never called for it to be removed (though judging by its lack of popularity here, and from what I've read in game reviews, maybe it should!).

    Quote Originally Posted by www.warfortheoveworld.com
    It is this forum [www.subterraneangames.com/forum] we are moving to, we cannot stay on Keeper Klan for development as we aren’t Dungeon Keeper game any more.
    Just in case people over-estimate my influence here on KK (I'm just an old relic that Dotted is probably keeping around for old time's sake!); the dedicated WftO and Subterra Games forum was created at least a day before I posted in this thread. Also Dotted is responsible for making any major decisions that affect the forum, and I'd be very surprised if he suggested the dev team go elsewhere. This leads me to assume kyle and the rest of the team felt it best to move development to a dedicated forum not solely due to the IP changes, but as a result of the new company and more space and focus for the project. Correct me if I'm wrong, kyle.

    The new project forum and site look great. Having a separate, dedicated space adds professionalism which can only be a good thing.

  8. #28
    Moderator MaxHayman's Avatar
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    Default Re: News on the direction WftO

    Quote Originally Posted by Funderbunk View Post
    , but the guys who made Castle Crusher couldn't sue Angry Birds even though they took the same game and just gave it a different look..
    Crush the castle was out way before angry birds was released

    Anyway, i kinda perfered wfto to stick to being 'DK3' but its not my decision.
    Last edited by MaxHayman; November 15th, 2011 at 00:13.

  9. #29

    Default Re: News on the direction WftO

    Quote Originally Posted by Ballwinkle View Post
    Crush the castle was out way before angry birds was released.
    True, but I don't see where I said otherwise. Maybe you misread? I'm saying Angry Birds stole their game, not the other way around.

  10. #30
    Vampire MeinCookie's Avatar
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    Default Re: News on the direction WftO

    Should we resubmit suggestions on the new forums ?
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