Vampire discussion thread

[Metal Gear Rex]

I think there should be a Water penalty. It helps add some variety between strengths and weaknesses. One Vampire could possess a generally standard Vampire spell set while another could possess more offensive and powerful magic, but lack the Flight spell to add another weakness to them.

My opinion would be to remove the fairy permanently killing vamps, but change the immortality, because it is exploitable. -1/-.5 level reduction if killed by creatures and heros other than Monk.

This is the thing I see the most problem with. If Creature A (Vampire) fights Creature B (Bile Demon) and Creature B wins, then Creature A respawns at lair, Keeper then HEALS him to full health and tosses him back into battle, thus making Creature A more annoying than a Level 10 Priestess paired with a Level 10 Giant.

I actually like the Fairy Weakness. In fact, I think one more reason to add the Priestess would be to have yet another enemy that can fight against the Vampire. However I do agree that there should still be a level penalty regardless of how the Vampire is killed. Even with the new set of limitations/nerfing, the Vampire's immortality can still be exploted through use of the Heal Spell. And Heal is already invaluable enough as it is so most Keepers would put priority on having it researched, I imagine.

I would like to have enough weaknesses in order to justify bringing the Vampire's Creature Slot usage to 1 though. It would allow more people to play as Vampires without it cutting back on their RPing ability. The problem with the current set of weaknesses is that they're incredibly situational.

The water weakness obviously doesn't take an effect unless there's water that needs to be crossed, and so far, only one realm has water to the point where the weakness is actually relevant. Fairies and Monks may not always be present, and then there's the case of when a Keeper fights against an enemy Dungeon Keeper. Vampires not being able to resurrect until Level 4 is obviously a very temporary weakness. And of course, there's the Heal Spell abuse.

[MeinCookie]

Creature Heal spell only revives 25% health maximum, they respawn at 10%, at least three posts or so should be assigned to cooldown timer between heals, chickens may help, but not nearly enough to simply jump right back into the battle. You'd have to go to sleep or else spend an inordinant ammount of time healing yourself.

If Keepers are the ones exploiting it with Keeper Heal spell than quite simply they should know better. Perhaps a resistance to Keeper Heal is in order?

Fact is, Level Reduction is bad, and in my opinion it is something we need to find a balanced way around a harsh penalty there. Leveling is a slow process.

[ARMofORION]

Creature Heal spell only revives 25% health, they respawn at 10%, at least three posts or so should be assigned to cooldown timer between heals, chickens may help, but not nearly enough to simply jump right back into the battle. You'd have to go to sleep or else spend an inordinant ammount of time healing yourself.

If Keepers are the ones exploiting it with Keeper Heal spell than quite simply they should know better. Perhaps a resistance to Keeper Heal is in order?

Fact is, Level Reduction is bad, and in my opinion it is something we need to find a balanced way around. Leveling is a slow process.

It depends on which heal is being used. If it's DK1 heal, yeah, it'll take a while. If it's DK2 heal, then it's cheap. And whats keeping Mr. Keeper from dropping some creatures in to heal him while he heals?

[Metal Gear Rex]

Creature Heal spell only revives 25% health, they respawn at 10%, at least three posts or so should be assigned to cooldown timer between heals, chickens may help, but not nearly enough to simply jump right back into the battle. You'd have to go to sleep or else spend an inordinant ammount of time healing yourself.

If Keepers are the ones exploiting it with Keeper Heal spell than quite simply they should know better. Perhaps a resistance to Keeper Heal is in order?

To be honest, it's hard not to exploit the Keeper Heal spell. Why would a Dungeon Keeper leave a Creature injured? Besides, the resistance to Heal won't stop the Keeper from casting Heal a second time. This is why my earlier suggestion involved nullifying the effects of Heal entirely.

Fact is, Level Reduction is bad, and in my opinion it is something we need to find a balanced way around a harsh penalty there. Leveling is a slow process.

I think you're revolving yourself around the idea that Vampires must die and receive the Level Penalty. They don't. The Level Penalty is just a more certain and definite way to punish the Vampire/Player for utilizing the Immortality. Vampires, like any other Creature, are not obligated to get themselves killed. It's just that with Immortality, it allows the Vampire to survive the otherwise fatal encounter but be in a weaker state as a result.

While I do agree that the Level Penalty is a harsh punishment, I think the Double Creature Slot is an even harsher punishment for having a Vampire. Don't you agree on that?

It depends on which heal is being used. If it's DK1 heal, yeah, it'll take a while. If it's DK2 heal, then it's cheap.

It is stated in the rules that Keeper Heal heals entirely and that Creature Heal heals 1 to 25% of a Unit's Health.

And whats keeping Mr. Keeper from dropping some creatures in to heal him while he heals?

A battle, actually. Obviously, some kind of battle (unless we're talking about special circumstances) must have occurred to kill the Vampire in the first place. Therefore, the Keeper wouldn't really be able to spare one of his Units to help heal the Vampire in question.

[Duke Ragereaver]

I'd personally leave things mostly unchanged for the most part and stick with MeinCookie's earlier suggestion; having some faith in fellow roleplayers. Which was my intention in the first place, since combat amongst others for the most part went well and thus displayed the trust people have with roleplaying with each other. In short, it's kinda dissapointing to see people focus on the ''what-if'' and thus not displaying the same trust I was talking about earlier. Remember, this is the RPG not the actual game(s)!

Just my personal thoughts on it. But very well, I will carry out some changes, drastic ones if that is demanded.

[Metal Gear Rex]

I'd personally leave things mostly unchanged for the most part and stick with MeinCookie's earlier suggestion; having some faith in fellow roleplayers. Which was my intention in the first place, since combat amongst others for the most part went well and thus displayed the trust people have with roleplaying with each other. In short, it's kinda dissapointing to see people focus on the ''what-if'' and thus not displaying the same trust I was talking about earlier. Remember, this is the RPG not the actual game(s)!

Just my personal thoughts on it. But very well, I will carry out some changes, drastic ones if that is demanded.

Just so we can understand each other a bit more, it should probably be noted that this isn't truly a question of being able to trust other RPers such as with the Creature Quest thread. Rather, it's more of a question of the logic being displayed when a Character possesses a great power that yields no (large) consequences and can become a tremendous boon for his allies and master, (or in the Keeper's case, his followers) then decides not to utilize it. It's heavily questionable as to why this power is not utilized and creates a bit of a hole in the story. "I forgot that I could do that" is a relatively poor excuse unless we're dealing with certain character types, such as Ribs for example.

Being in an RPG actually makes the situation a bit worse. We are supposed to use more realism/logic in the RPG compared to the actual game. Characters shouldn't hold back on their abilities and potential usefulness considering the realistically cruel cost if they do. (Of course exceptions are within certain character types) If we ran into a similar situation in the actual game, it's perfectly understandable that a Creature wouldn't utilize some kind of great power as the game has balance to worry about. We also need to worry about balance but from a more story perspective.

"All Creatures were born to be overall equal to one another within their variety of different strengths and weaknesses"
...is the kind of thing you're going for, if I'm not mistaken. Therefore, we should probably make sure the Vampire is equal to others such as the Beetle and Warlock. Perhaps you should make the Vampire especially unique in that he has a more dramatic set of Strengths but also a drastic set of Weaknesses. (Though I think that's pretty much bound to happen anyways with Immortality being one of his Strengths)

PS: I hope you don't take this too much as me trying to argue with you, Duke. I'm generally trying to help you see things the way we/I see it, as there seems to be some significant differences in how we all view the situation. And there's nothing wrong with gaining multiple perspectives in order to judge a situation, is there? :P

* * *

And for a new set of suggestions...

• The Vampire requires a Graveyard in order to resurrect. This may sound redundant/unnecessary but Creatures can appear at the start of the Realm if they transfer with their Dungeon Keeper, if I'm not mistaken. (The RPG Rules isn't 100% clear on that actually) This prevents Vampires from being able to resurrect too much earlier in the Realm, depending on how soon or late that Keeper builds a Graveyard.
• When the Vampire's Health hits 0%, he dies and returns to the Graveyard/Lair and suffers a full Level Drop, losing all EXP. However, if his Health drops below either 10% or 5%, he has the option to Resurrect early. This only costs him half his EXP for that level. If the Vampire has recently taken Holy Damage, he cannot do this. Note that this wouldn't be something truly spammable as the Vampire won't always be in a situation where he can resurrect prematurely. (Say he's getting his face smashed by a Barbarian) If an RPer does constantly utilize this without justified reason(s), it can be considered Godmodding.
• Vampires cannot be buffed in any way nor can they be Healed. This limits their abilities not only in battle but also in the Dungeon. (A very good and fair drawback to being able to resurrect at will if you ask me)
• Vampires are vulnerable to fire.
• Bring back the Priestess and make her deal Holy Damage damn it! (I loves her :c)

[ShellahFellah]

I personally believe this is all good and all with the new updated settings for the vampire. But with healing them might be overpowered. But healing would be considered a holy spell? If so maybe it should have a lower effect making vampires having to eat their chicken wait it out and maybe read a book or two of immortality for the less informed. As the current rules for vampires are good the healing should be something to think about. But I don't know. Like meincookie said, have some faith in the vampires.

-ShellahFellah

[Metal Gear Rex]

I personally believe this is all good and all with the new updated settings for the vampire. But with healing them might be overpowered. But healing would be considered a holy spell? If so maybe it should have a lower effect making vampires having to eat their chicken wait it out and maybe read a book or two of immortality for the less informed. As the current rules for vampires are good the healing should be something to think about. But I don't know. Like meincookie said, have some faith in the vampires.

-ShellahFellah

Pretty late to the discussion. It's been nearly two years since the last post. :/