Page 11 of 31 FirstFirst ... 9 10 11 12 13 21 ... LastLast
Results 101 to 110 of 305

Thread: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

  
  1. #101

    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    hey guys i just downloaded this patch and noticed that lvl 2 you kill the main hero and hrony wont show up to collect diamond

  2. #102
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,689

    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mannoroht View Post
    I rather have a good patch than a rushed one which might be not that good. Even tho I can't wait to see the new changes and play with them, very excited so far.
    I doubt most people would be able to notice the difference. It would take a more skillful eye, as it's really a question of how smooth the campaign levels play out and whether or not they synergize properly with the game balance. That's what I'm mainly delaying the patch for. Well, there's also the main thread, which is kind of tricky to write, but that doesn't take too long by comparison.

    The game balance, as it stands, is nearly complete, I think. It's about as complete as I can get it while playing on my own. The next step would be to try multiplayer balance. After working on the thread, I ended up highlighting a list of game balance concerns or changes that I'm considering, but most of these are minor and the list isn't too large, considering. I'll share what they are after the patch update, but they won't be included in the current update. Reason being that even in the worst case scenario, it'd still be better than the currently released patch. That's the reason I was pushing for a new update, as the current release is just so out of date.

    The one exception to all this is the Wizard. Wizards run into the problem of being simply outclassed as support units, which is awkward. I've decided to address this particular concern in the update, and I've already made changes that make the Wizard much better in theory, but it changes out he functions as a unit. I'm going through the campaign again to make tweaks here and there so that the levels are adjusted properly to the new Wizard changes. Wizards are pretty interesting now, if with complicated spells.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mannoroht View Post
    There is one problem tho, I have some troubles with my Gold since level 6. My playstyle is rather slow, because I love exploring the whole Map (there could be everywhere some secrets which I love to find) but doing this results into having a lot of paydays. Either there's not much Gold to dig out or creatures wants a bit to much Gold OR Im just bad
    6a or 6b? I'm assuming 6a as 6b doesn't sound like the kind of level you'd be able to play without changing your playstyle to one of faster pacing.

    How are you playing 6a? Are you going defensively or do you plan to assault the castle? If you're going defensively and don't shut down any gates, you shouldn't have problems with Gold, unless you're also doing a lot of converts. If you shut down one or especially two gates and you're still remaining defensive, you might start to run low on gold, depending on when you shut down a particular gate and which ones you decide to shut down. If you're going offensively, usually you won't run into gold problems unless you A) do a lot of converts, B) take too long to begin your assault on the castle, or C) Try to take the entire castle.

    Mistresses and most Heroes, especially Knights, can contribute to higher Payday. Perhaps you could throw a Mistress out if she's causing you too much trouble on that front, and you're not getting enough use out of her? Mistresses are very good with your starting Creatures and allow weaker Creatures to take down more durable and heavier units, but if you do a lot of converts, they aren't as necessary to survive.

    Vanilla DKII hardly punishes the player for being slow, in fact the game seems designed to encourage that kind of playstyle and to be kind to more casual players. My campaign, on the other hand, often encourages the more aggressive playstyle or finds a way to increase difficulty with both kinds of playstyles. Meanwhile, my patch allows for more interactive battles and such, which is often necessary to overcome the challenges of my campaign. There's more depth to the game now, which means it takes more knowledge of how the game works to be able to deal with certain challenges reasonably, at least without using some lame exploit. That's why I think getting the thread up and running properly with a more in-depth analysis of all the Creatures and such is very important.

    I could certainly understand how or why someone would have a lot of difficulty with the campaign if they come straight from vanilla DKII or come in thinking that the same kind of mentality that worked in vanilla DKII could work in my patch. But my patch is unrestricted, allowing for more radical changes to the game to try and find a balance, and not everyone will get used to that right away, if at all. But my point is, it will only get more difficult beyond Level 6. Level 6 can be very hard as it is a bit of a spike in the difficulty curve, but it will still only get harder.

    Except for Level 8, that level I think is easily the worst map in the released patch, which is why I redesigned it from essentially scratch and will be showing that off in the update. It was pretty badly designed before, in my opinion, but I very much like the new design.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Bos View Post
    hey guys i just downloaded this patch and noticed that lvl 2 you kill the main hero and hrony wont show up to collect diamond
    What version of the game are you playing? I've yet to encounter this problem myself nor have I heard any reports of this off the top of my head, but unless the game somehow glitched, then the explanation is simple. I'm not sure which version of the game it begins in, maybe 1.61, but for some reason, Bullfrog/EA made it so that it was hardcoded for all Lords and Kings to die instantly. This was very unnecessary and very stupid, and causes problems on maps such as this one.

    The campaign levels were scripted so that the Lord is considered defeated when he is 'Dying', or unconscious. The 'Die Instantly' skips that stage, causing the game to miss that script. The patch was designed with the 1.3 version in mind, but I guess it would also work with 1.51. I was under the assumption that 1.7 versions of the game would crash instantly due to missing Maiden data or something else I can't remember off the top of my head, and I don't think anybody really uses 1.61, so I've never worried about this kind of problem coming up.

    As far as I know, the patched campaign is still incompatible with 1.7 on certain maps, specifically due to brain-dead Keeper AI that doesn't properly respond to enemy threats. Solely because of this, I recommend trying the 1.3 version of the game. The brain-dead AI might break certain maps, especially with the update I'm working on. Level 10 and 11 come to mind.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

  3. #103

    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post



    What version of the game are you playing? I've yet to encounter this problem myself nor have I heard any reports of this off the top of my head, but unless the game somehow glitched, then the explanation is simple. I'm not sure which version of the game it begins in, maybe 1.61, but for some reason, Bullfrog/EA made it so that it was hardcoded for all Lords and Kings to die instantly. This was very unnecessary and very stupid, and causes problems on maps such as this one.

    The campaign levels were scripted so that the Lord is considered defeated when he is 'Dying', or unconscious. The 'Die Instantly' skips that stage, causing the game to miss that script. The patch was designed with the 1.3 version in mind, but I guess it would also work with 1.51. I was under the assumption that 1.7 versions of the game would crash instantly due to missing Maiden data or something else I can't remember off the top of my head, and I don't think anybody really uses 1.61, so I've never worried about this kind of problem coming up.

    As far as I know, the patched campaign is still incompatible with 1.7 on certain maps, specifically due to brain-dead Keeper AI that doesn't properly respond to enemy threats. Solely because of this, I recommend trying the 1.3 version of the game. The brain-dead AI might break certain maps, especially with the update I'm working on. Level 10 and 11 come to mind.
    im using the 1.7 one from gog.com.. ive been trying to get DK2 to be fun again.. in DK1 we had the deeper dungeons and keeperfx with its numerous campaigns however im still missing that im not a hardcore DK player.. i restart everymap as seen as ive dug one single tile wrong or when walls are breached to early
    sont suppose you know any patches for that?

  4. #104

    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    I played both 6a and 6b. For 6a I started defending some waves, and after my creatures were strong enough to have no problems anymore, I started to shutdown one Gate (the one which is not near the castle) because this was the most problematic one. I did some converts but not that many and overall 6a was fine to play, much pressure in the beginning, which was awesome to be honest and then trying to raid the castle was not that difficult anymore, since my creatures were around level 7~. Was fun to play this level.

    For 6b: I had to restart this level once, because I didn't know I had not that much time to finish it and because I had to explore the map anyways to see where the ways are and which way is wrong. Good thing is I have no problems at adapting to certain playstyles, thats why it went much better in my second run playing 6b.

    But yeah in overall 6b was harder, obviously because of the time and very little resources.
    And for level 8, yeah it was nothing special, but it was OK.

    Level 9 tho, damnnnnn the sequence at the beginning was very very well made, I liked this level. Have to play level 10 now, I remember when i first played Dungeon Keeper 2, this level destroyed me (I was around 8 years I believe) the difference from under level 10 to level 10 was huge (the main reason it was so hard: I didn't know until level 19 there was something like converting................). But in my opinion I think converting is not awesome, because levels get too easy atleast in the vanilla campaign. I suppose in your campaign you kind of have to convert some heroes in order to have a chance.

  5. #105
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,689

    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mannoroht View Post
    I played both 6a and 6b. For 6a I started defending some waves, and after my creatures were strong enough to have no problems anymore, I started to shutdown one Gate (the one which is not near the castle) because this was the most problematic one.
    The Northwest gate, that one can be annoying. It's not necessarily hard, just annoying, as it spams a bunch of weak Hero waves. The southwest one is the opposite, producing heavy waves very infrequently, with the added effect of all parties dying instantly. The southeast gate is a middle ground between the two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mannoroht View Post
    I did some converts but not that many and overall 6a was fine to play, much pressure in the beginning, which was awesome to be honest and then trying to raid the castle was not that difficult anymore, since my creatures were around level 7~. Was fun to play this level.
    Heading straight into the castle from the front gate is the most difficult. You need some converts and to grind off of the Hero Waves a bit in order to make it through. I don't know how difficult it may be from the sides. I can't remember what the released version of the map is like, but I know that in the update at least, the sides are much easier. The eastern side is probably easier, but offers less experience as it uses traps, and is probably a little bit slower. The western side has much more challenge from the Patrol parties and more experience to give, on top of being the faster route due to less slow downs with traps and such.

    The Lord himself can be very tricky as he summons a massive numer of Heroes. You can still win with relative ease if you focus damage him and kill him before his reinforcements can begin supporting him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mannoroht View Post
    For 6b: I had to restart this level once, because I didn't know I had not that much time to finish it and because I had to explore the map anyways to see where the ways are and which way is wrong. Good thing is I have no problems at adapting to certain playstyles, thats why it went much better in my second run playing 6b.
    I've forgotten this until recently, but one of the perks of the update is I decided to change the text files, so you'll have proper information beforehand from the debriefing screen to know what to do. Though, 6b is one of those maps where it's still easier to beat once you play it the first time and get a good feel for where everything is, as you have to move fast and be efficient, which requires familiarity with the map.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mannoroht View Post
    But yeah in overall 6b was harder, obviously because of the time and very little resources.
    I wouldn't say 6b is harder, more like a different kind of difficulty. It can be considered harder by most new Players because they're not experience with that kind of map until 6b, but in general, it seems about the same in its own way.

    6b is a map where you have to move fast, remain aggressive, and stay on top of things. Everything takes time, and you can't afford to sit around doing one thing or it'll hurt you elsewhere. In 6a, it's the first serious Hero Invasion map. Most players are familiar with that due to DK1, some of the vanilla campaign, and the patched campaign in levels prior to that. As a result, the map isn't as overwhelming as 6b, where there really is no level quite like it before that. At least, none of the vanilla campaign levels had the difficulty in such levels to be able to really train a Player. But that's why it's optional.

    At least in this new update, level 7 offers a somewhat similar experience as you have to move fast due to limited resources, and the revised level 8 does put more direct pressure on the Player to remain aggressive. It's training for Level 9 a bit, and for levels to come. Though, I think 6b offers the most training for this kind of experience, should a Player decide to challenge themselves with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mannoroht View Post
    And for level 8, yeah it was nothing special, but it was OK.
    The released version of Level 8 is pretty bad, I have to say. It's very poorly made and easily the worst level in the current release, which is why I revised it from near scratch, making it much more challenging and interesting. The original concept of Gold being scarce has been removed for the most part, though terrain is still difficult to deal with. The pacing of the map has been very much improved, and it also introduces the Samurai, one of the new Heroes in the update. (Though technically, the Samurai has a bit of a teaser appearance in the updated 6b at the end)

    The Wizards have custom stats in the updated level 8 and are difficult to take out. There is no real 'intended' order anymore (for the most part, but even then it's still flexible), as all the Wizards and their domains are easy to begin with. However, every time a Wizard dies, it makes all of the other Wizards and their areas more difficult to deal with. You're also on a time limit, and when the time runs out, the fifth Wizard will assault you. He becomes stronger for every Wizard left alive by that point. Then there's Lord Titus, who is pretty tough in his own right. His gimmick is about the same, though it's been edited to make it actually work better this time around. Rogues are very useful in this fight if you train them to the point that they receive Assassinate, as they can burst him down before he can call for reinforcements that will Heal him and give him Invulnerability. Otherwise, it'll be a long and hard fought battle.

    I feel like such a dick for all of these teases with how much better the patch is with this major upcoming update, from both a core gameplay standpoint and level design stand point. Oh well. :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Mannoroht View Post
    Level 9 tho, damnnnnn the sequence at the beginning was very very well made, I liked this level.
    Level 9 has been revised so it's based primarily on reaction with a secondary focus on planning, rather than vice versa as is with the released version. I felt like the released version didn't quite meet up with my expectations of the map. It was good, but the execution just didn't fit in with the original concept I had in mind, which is why I revised it. I wanted to make it so you're more so pressured to keep track of the Lord's movements after he spawns, then move in to intercept him, and deal with him as he possibly changes his routes if the option is available. However, you have so little time before he moves that it's really difficult to create that kind of experience. The bulk of your time is before he spawns on the map.

    With the map now, you have 20 minutes before he spawns, rather than forty minutes to an hour (can't remember). However, he waits at each stopping point for about 8 minutes, rather than 3 or so minutes as before. While the base map design is mostly untouched, the enemy placement has been completely revised to adjust with these changes. I pretty much stripped the map of all Heroes and Traps then started over again. The map does put more active pressure on the Player and matches up much better with the original concept. I like it more than before, it's more exciting and intense as you race from point A to B to try and intercept the Lord.

    I also fixed some rather silly things with the level, such as the Lord spawning or waiting around the center row, where the Player is. The problem with him spawning and waiting there is he is too vulnerable and is easy to take out.

    Unfortunately, the map is so complex with its script that it seems to break DKII a bit. I've seen the script break in areas where it, before, has worked perfectly fine. So I'll be spending some time to find as many of these errors as I reasonably can and fixing them, but that will cause delays, of course. Still, it's nice to know that this map is on a whole new level of complexity. If I were to implement the same script in DK1, I'm sure it would break the game a hundred times over with the sheer number of IF statements. So much overflow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mannoroht View Post
    Have to play level 10 now, I remember when i first played Dungeon Keeper 2, this level destroyed me (I was around 8 years I believe) the difference from under level 10 to level 10 was huge (the main reason it was so hard:
    Yeah I've mentioned a few times how Level 10 is both fantastic and terrible, as it's a more legit challenging map yet it's a massive jump in the difficulty curve. The map itself isn't that hard for a decent player, but the difficulty spike and the fact that there's no training in any maps prior for this kind of challenge is just dumb. It's mainly the fact that DKII has such low difficulty in general and encourages passive / idle play-styles that it attracts more casual players who just happen to struggle with this kind of map as it's the opposite to what they're used to.

    I have to admit that I don't like level 10 in the released version either. It's not as bad as Level 8 in my opinion but it does feel very unpolished. There are a few issues that seem to appear as well that Shonji reported before, but I never experienced personally, like Dwarf retardation where the Dwarves couldn't properly mine to the Player. Naturally, this is all fixed in the update, as I've expanded the level so much more to make it feel more interactive and interesting. It's less frustrating at certain points while still difficult, and there's more emphasis on Asmodeus rather than the Heroes.

    Unfortunately, until I can get this update through, you'll just have to deal with what's there in Level 10 for the time being. Though, you should look forward to Level 11, as that map is very fun. And hard. I hope you like dominating women because Raksha.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mannoroht View Post
    I didn't know until level 19 there was something like converting................)
    Hilarious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mannoroht View Post
    . But in my opinion I think converting is not awesome, because levels get too easy atleast in the vanilla campaign. I suppose in your campaign you kind of have to convert some heroes in order to have a chance.
    Converting has always been super OP. The problem with it is the fact that you can bypass the Creature Pool limit and gain an already fully trained unit in a matter of minutes, saving both time and resources. I mean, you're spending much less mana to Heal the unit than you would be spending in gold to train them to the same level and to pay them multiple times depending on how long you have them. Even if you were spending the same amount of mana as you would gold, it's still a big problem as Mana is a renewable resource. If converting could not bypass the Creature Pool or the converts started at Level 1, then the mechanic could be considered fair play.

    In DKII, the mechanic is even more broken as converting gets even easier the more they level, which is funny how it's a double benifit for encountering a high leveled unit. The Heal Spell is OP and the damage units take from torture is low to begin with, so it's never a problem. It's so easy that it gives a feeling of undeserved reward because you just gain a super well trained unit for like, nothing. It doesn't help that Mistresses take null damage from torture due to silly / lazy design choices.

    My patch increases the difficulty of converting, making it difficult to convert an enemy while dealing with constant pressure as if you miss a Heal, you can accidentally kill the Creature. Mass converting is also very difficult due to the Heal nerfs as well, unlike in the vanilla. In the Campaign, where you don't deal with intelligent opponents who can adapt to the losses, I try to restrict converting.

    Still can't do much about the Mistress though, unless I want to remove her job at torture completely. It's not as bad an idea as it sounds, merely a radical one. Her torturing herself is actually an annoyance more than anything, as the job is bugged and she sometimes gets stuck there, never leaving even if an enemy appears nearby or sometimes even if she needs to get paid. It also means she doesn't get in the way of converts, as she does in some situations, and won't stop her usual jobs like training. This would remove that annoyance and allow me to make it so the Mistress takes damage from torture and thus more difficult to convert, rather than a test of patience. It's something I can experiment with later, after this current update.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

  6. #106

    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    So this campaign and map patch is designed to be run with 1.3 ... but is it even possible to run 1.3 on Windows Vista/7/8? How can you downgrade GoG's 1.7 to a 1.3?

  7. #107
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,689

    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueTemplar View Post
    So this campaign and map patch is designed to be run with 1.3 ... but is it even possible to run 1.3 on Windows Vista/7/8? How can you downgrade GoG's 1.7 to a 1.3?
    I have Windows 8 myself. When I tried to install 1.3 from the disk, I couldn't get it to run. I couldn't get 1.7 to run either, but 1.51 worked fine. I only just realized this recently, and I don't know what the issue is. I've had a cracked version of the game for ages that my brothers created so we could all play multiplayer without having to buy the game two more times. It is the 1.3 version and it works perfectly fine on this computer. I have to wonder where other people got their 1.3 versions of the game.

    Before, you could get 1.3 here. However, with GOG bringing in DKII, Hapuga removed the links, understandably so. It's a shame though because now people are stuck with 1.7 and its brain dead Keeper AI. I mean I would love to have access to the Maiden again but not at the cost of dumber AI.

    I don't know what to tell you, honestly. I've only just found out about 1.3 not working with Windows 8, after trying it some days ago. In my experience, DKII can be a very picky game with its machine, so it could just be something with my computer it doesn't like. Could not be. I've been focusing on this patch update recently so I haven't had time to really look into this.

    I recall finding patches for going from 1.7 to 1.3 before, but looking now, I can't seem to find them. I think I was misremembering this thread. It's a conversion of maps, not a conversion of the game. I don't think there is currently a way to 'downgrade' back to the original version of the game. Originally, my patch was to be aimed towards both 1.7 and 1.3. However, there's so many changes that it's probably not possible to balance the game under both versions of the game without doing some changes to the patch itself between the different versions. I ended up sticking with 1.3 due to the Keeper AI changes primarily I think. Getting ahold of 1.3 around that time wasn't a problem, as it was before GOG and while that thread was still up. Now it is a problem and I need to figure out how to best resolve it.

    I really would like to create easier access for a 1.3 version of the game. Recently I've been wondering if 1.3 is actually the superior version of the game. The reason why I began playing around with the vanilla game a few days ago was to to confirm if two changes in the 1.51 version of the game actually worked (Magic Doors immune to physical damage and Creatures being able to heal themselves, both bad for my patch and unfortunately they do work without any way to turn them off). When I was testing 1.51, I noticed Creatures struggling to attack a simple door. They were getting stuck, and not for a few seconds either. I never once saw them attack the door, so I began to wonder if the Creature AI had somehow been changed for the worse, unintentionally of course.

    I've been meaning to play through the 1.51 version of the game with my patch to confirm my suspicions and see just how much the AI has changed, but I was planning on doing so after I released the update. Due to the Magic Door and Heal Self changes, the patch is already incompatible with 1.5 as it stands, so there was no rush to test this.

    I won't be doing anything until I finish my testing and can release the new update. I'm too close to finishing it to stop and look into these separate issues, which could take some time. I will be looking into them, however.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

  8. #108
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,689

    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    I have to agree that 1.7 is actually the worst version of the game (basically), which is a funny paradox considering it's the most popular version.

    We've got the Maiden ripped from 1.7, into my 1.51 patch-mod you know. Except for the whole attraction-through-portal thing.
    Around the time I was playing with the vanilla versions of the game, I tried the GIM. I don't know why, but the 1.51 version of it doesn't work at all. I tried 1.7, and it does work, but I don't want to play it. I don't know if this is with vanilla 1.7 or if it's something you've modified, but the camera control seems unstable to me. It moves really fast and is rather annoying to use. It's possible I could get used to it as perhaps I'm too adjusted to default DKII camera control, but part of me doubts it. The graphics also look worse to me. It seems to blur a bit in a way that just looks ugly. The unlimited zoom thing is nice I guess but it seems very impractical and unnecessary.

    Also, this might just be my computer but for some reason, my normal mouse cursor is stuck at the center of the screen during the whole game, which kinda bugs me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    The creatures being able to heal themselves being bad for your patch, hardly makes 1.3 superior.
    I never said it did, I only mentioned it because it's what got me to playtesting in the vanilla 1.51 to begin with. I'm also not stating 1.51's inferiority as a fact, but as a theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    In 1.51 the creatures will attack all doors except the magic door. The magic doors they will just run at and not attack, unless the creatures have ranged attacks. At least I've never noticed any problems, with creatures attacking the other doors.
    This is the best case scenario I thought of, but I have to be sure that that's all there is to it. That's why I have to try to play through my campaign again with 1.51 to check if there is any other differences.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    I suspect you've just been trying to find reasons, to avoid using my and Hapuga's version of the game; for some reason at all costs.

    It should be easy enough, for you to patch the globals and variable files of my mod. And to add your own levels. But I do understand that the globals file and variables file patching can be very tedious, if done by hand.
    I don't always have the time to keep up to date with things. I fell behind on the changes you've been bringing to the GIM at some point and never bothered to catch up. It seemed irrelevant at the time, because it's 1.51 / 1.7 and not 1.3, and also required the 1.7 folder to work properly. I think I had a hardrive failure around the time you first created the GIM, so I've been without a 1.7 version of DKII on this computer. I knew there were a number of changes done in the GIM that I would have to look into before applying my patch, and it was all time I'd rather focus on the patch itself. I was only able to try it out recently because I decided to get some testing done and I went ahead and brought my 1.7 folder from my other computer over here, hoping it would work as it didn't need a disk. Sadly, it didn't.

    It isn't a simple question of just applying the patch to the GIM. I have to know what changes you have outside of mere global data. I have to know exactly what is going to change and if there are any sacrifices I have to make, then I have to figure out a way to best adapt. Due to the Maiden, I already know it would take some time as I would have to recreate my patch on a 1.7 type map. If my patch isn't even finished or there are a variety of things I can think of that will change, then it would be very inefficient as I would then have to keep both patch files up to date, on top of keeping track of any changes you make to the GIM as I would then be apart of that.

    So yes, there are some very good reasons for me I feel to not try and apply my patch to the GIM at the moment. It seems inevitable, however, that the two things will collide at some point as people like using GIM and my patch does offer a lot of changes that are easily arguable as being improvements. However, the two would have to remain as technically separate entities for those who still prefer the original game, as my patch undeniably includes a lot of radical changes that some people may still not like.

    I have very quick methods to apply my patch to a new map once I have the basic patch file set up. I rarely do changes manually. It's mostly copy and paste with variable files. My patch level file is set up for S/M maps as far as the Level Variables are concerned, so I just copy and rename that and it's good to go. The only real problem is creating a Hero variation of the map, as that involves more manual work. I've been thinking about attempting Creature vs Hero variations for S/M maps at some point, so that's going to be even more of a challenge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    AI should be the same in 1.51 as in 1.3, except better.
    That is the hope.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    A very minor, in fact almost totally non-significant incompatibility.
    That sounds like a very baseless statement to make. Those changes do a lot of work to break the balance of my patch. Creatures are more likely to heal themselves than others once they're at critical Health, causing certain units to become much more powerful at the front lines as they have an added boost of durability. Suddenly Knights and Guards receive a significant boost in usefulness, the Knight especially as he was already very capable of tanking and dealing damage. Royal Guards are now top tier due to Great Heal being incredibly powerful. Monks are also going to be very annoying to kill, and they're already useful enough as support Heroes. The Lord might be near impossible to kill because I gave him a Full Heal spell, meant to be used on his weaker allies rather than his overpowering self.

    This makes the campaign significantly harder and causes these Heroes to be very annoying and frustrating to deal with, the Lord especially. As converts, these units are going to be the highest priority compared to other converts. On Hero Multiplayer maps, they become very easily spammable, acting as the new Black Knight for the Heroes. Hero balance is something I need to aim towards, not just because they're convertible but because of Hero Multiplayer maps now being a thing.

    Then there is the Magic Door, which is now even harder to take down. Giants and Skeletons were some of the more viable units to use due to their burst, but now they do absolutely nothing. Ranged units are less reliable against a Magic Door, and now that're all that can take it down.

    Do you see? Yes, it does make the patch incompatible with 1.51 because it breaks the balance in a way that was clearly not intended. I can tweak the patch to work around 1.51, but as it stands, it doesn't really work all that well with that version of the game. It would take some time to figure out a new approach and see if I can also find a way to get the patch to work for both 1.3 and 1.51 fairly. These changes create separation between the two versions, so this will be tricky, and I don't really want to spend the time to look into it until after I finish this update.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    By the way I've also been wanting to convert your levels to 1.7, so I can play them through my mod (it uses 1.7 map format even though it's basically 1.51). But I haven't really had much time for DK at all lately, other than the forums.
    I wanted to get that done myself at some point. I'll get around to it eventually. When it comes to things related to DKII and my patch, it's the lowest on my priority list.

    I did want to offer a sort of quick fix for vanilla DK2's balance that GIM could use by default. It would involve some quick stat changes here and there to significantly improve the balance of the game while keeping it very true to the original experience. When I tried GIM, I naturally couldn't help but take a more detailed look at some of the stats set up. I wasn't... the happiest person while I was checking them out, to put it lightly. I would really prefer not going deep into discussion or detail about this for a variety of reasons, but if you want me to give you my honest thoughts on it, I'll do so on the GIM thread.

    Anyway, that is perhaps the main reason why I wanted to provide this sort of quick fix, however I don't know when I'll be able to get around to this. As it stands, my first priority is getting that update out.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

  9. #109

    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    I thought I couldn't install DK2 from disk under Windows 7 because I would only get to 100% loading the install program, then nothing would happen. But yesterday I put my PC into sleep mode, and lo and behold! this morning the install program actually opened! I could install and play the game without any problems. Looks like I only needed to give it some time...

    Though how can I check it's the 1.3 version? There's no version number indicated on the bottom left of the main menu and the Readme says 1.0. DKII.exe says it has been modified on 14/06/1999 4:58.

  10. #110
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,689

    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueTemplar View Post
    Though how can I check it's the 1.3 version? There's no version number indicated on the bottom left of the main menu and the Readme says 1.0. DKII.exe says it has been modified on 14/06/1999 4:58.
    There's 1.3, 1.51, 1.61, and 1.7. In 1.3, it doesn't display the version number, where as it does so in all later versions. That's how you can tell, so yes, you have 1.3. By default, you install the 1.3 version from the disk. It doesn't patch automatically upon installation, but gives you the option to do so after installing.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

Similar Threads

  1. Hive Keeper - Dungeon Keeper remake on Starcraft 2
    By Bibendus in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 55
    Last Post: March 9th, 2024, 12:46
  2. Unit, Balance & Gameplay changes
    By Skyman in forum KeeperFX
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: March 23rd, 2011, 16:50
  3. Dungeon Keeper 2 Windows 7 x64 1.8 patch has no Mentor Voice
    By vision in forum DK2 Troubleshooting
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: February 11th, 2011, 08:33
  4. Re-balance needed?
    By mefistotelis in forum KeeperFX
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: September 11th, 2010, 07:35
  5. Dungeon Keeper v1.50 and v1.51 Patch Downloads
    By Jibbits in forum Dungeon Keeper 2
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: September 14th, 2009, 21:29

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •