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Thread: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

  
  1. #141

    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    I can respect that opinion. I haven't played DK1 in some time that I've forgotten the real feel of building a dungeon and just how different it is from DK2, but I do remember having some more planning involved. Always tried to have multiple Lairs, build the Hatchery in a place where I knew would get a lot of attraction. Have to move the Library off to the side else Warlocks get unhappy or fireball Imps / others passing by.

    DKII has that to an extent, but it's lacking. It really is the biggest problem of vanilla DK2, it lacks depth. It's simple, dumbed down everything, or almost everything. Playing and working with the game as long as I have, it's pretty obvious that the developers weren't that passionate of the game and were more interested in using the Dungeon Keeper name to sell a product.

    I feel I've been able to expand on this a lot, but I can only do so much. Combat is improved, there's a level of strategy that makes the game fun and interesting, but dungeon building as you say is something that is severely lacking by simple comparison. This improves later on in the campaign in the form of traps and doors, but it isn't everything. I very much wish I could figure out a way to change this. I may not fully remember the exact feeling of Dk1 dungeon building, but I do remember enjoying it much more than DKII building, even with my patch, not that my patch adds too much in that aspect.

    Perhaps I should try DK1 again to remind myself of that feeling.
    It's not just the strategy involved, also the feel to it. The drag and drop room selection of DK2 is a lot easier yes, but also a lot more hands off. Clicking on a square, and painting what you wanted excavated, with a satisfying sound, really makes the experience come to live and gives you a much better feel of the grid.
    Also, because you can see the rock and dirt around you in DK1, you can plan your dungeon exactly and make satisfying layouts in the space available. You can draw out the entire floorplan of your dungeon before your first creature enters, with the shortest walking distances between rooms, and draw in the doors when you want your imps to excavate further.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    My patch is pretty much designed for people who know their way around at least the basic mechanics. Things like Imps dragging Creatures back only when on their own land and other such things. It doesn't really tutor anyone for the most part. It would slow down the campaign a lot more I think.
    I know, and you're right to do so. I'm one of the few crazy people trying it being almost a novice to DKII. I thought I remembered grouping,... I threw a bunch of elves in a guardroom, possessed one and then looked at the other sternly to follow me, but they simply wouldn't. I'll press 7, thanks. Edit: And done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    So yes, you can definitely feel Possession has much slower pacing. Ultimately, DKII possession is pretty overpowered anyways as Creature AI is retarded, so normally you want to stay away from it anyways... except for Level 4, I guess, which still requires it. Now that I think about it, it is pretty awkward, isn't it?
    I think it is,... it is the gimmick of the level, but not really fun at all. It would be ok if there are some points in which you can gain an advantage by sniping something with an Elf, but please just let me acquire a bridge, or dig all the way around the backdoor and kill him like that.
    Last edited by YourMaster; March 27th, 2014 at 21:47.

  2. #142
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    I've been working on Level 12. It looks pretty promising as it stands now. A lot of the work has gone into carving out the terrain. It's one of those "scavenge" maps where you begin with nothing and you have to explore to find scraps of gold and other resources to make do. The level is subtitled "scavenge" and the speech files also suggest that the map was intended to be this way, yet it didn't really feel like a scavenge map at all in the original. The vanilla map had more than enough gold to get you going, considering you didn't really need to build a real dungeon and the biggest expense, building the Graveyard, was already taken care of by just giving you a pre-built Graveyard.

    The revised Level 12 should feel quite different. The level I don't think resembles the original that much, aside from a few things. I'd love to show what I have so far as a small preview, but given the nature of the map, it would reveal too much. I can still share a few other things though. There's some reused concepts, like how Lord Bramble's forces were crippled but are still going at it. The Hero "fort" is pretty weak and kind of all over the place, being very thin and covering strips of land rather than any one big chunk. There are also some injured Heroes scattered around the map who managed to escape Malachai's attack and are in hiding. Malachai is now a Yellow Keeper instead of a Blue one, and there's also a new enemy Keeper, who is the new Blue Keeper. I don't have a finalized name for him yet though.

    On a different note, would anyone be interested in helping me playtest multiplayer? My usual playtesters are less available for the time being. I'll be testing a number of things. 1) Multiplayer map revisions in general 2) New and experimental statistics and concepts 3) Creature vs Hero matchups in multiplayer (and the possible Creature & Hero combo)

    I use Game Ranger. If you have Skype, that would make contacting and arranging games much easier, as that's all I have. If you're able to skype call, we can chat during any games. PM me if you're interested and perhaps give me some information about your playstyle and skill level, as it'll help give me some context for any test game results.
    Last edited by Metal Gear Rex; March 29th, 2014 at 20:55.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

  3. #143

    Default DK2 GOG + GiM + PiE

    Prepare to Die!

    Anyone been playing campaign with GiM and PiE?

    I made it to level 8 so far.

    Here's a quick view of my experience so far.

    Level 1-4 was pretty easy

    Level 5 'Fear'
    Started to feel how rare gold is. Baited the other keeper to destroy a part of the Hero's defense, attacked and killed the keeper from the library entrance just for kicks. Ran out of gold so had to rush the Goodly Hero.

    Level 6a 'Rout'
    Had to expand my domain as fast as possible. Creatures barely had free time, fight, sleep repeat. Made it to the Goodly Hero at his last stop and lured him away from his gang. Then explored the map. Made it to the blue keeper who suddenly turned ally.

    Level 6b 'Siege'
    Felt like im the one under siege with hero parties attacking from 3 sides, but the attacks mostly stopped after i broke their 1st line. Also i messed up their patrol path?
    Converted 6 knights. Gold ran out pretty fast. Had to possess a level 9 knight to clear out most of the trap in front of the Goodly hero's room and break open the door. Killed GH as he walked to attack me.

    Level 7 'Caverns'
    Tried to make enemy keeper kill the Goodly Hero or the GH kill the keeper. Ran out of gold pretty quicky so lured the GH onto a bridge and cut him off, leaving him on a tile of bridge in the middle of lava. Killed him with ranged attacks,

    Level 8 'Aftermath'
    Ugh. Pretty much ran out of gold from the start, bridges are expensive... Casino didnt help much. Hero parties of giants and fairies are pretty OP. Fairies can use hailstorm to quickly wipe out my creatures. Between the attacks and paydays, im fk-ed

  4. #144
    Mapmaker Skarok's Avatar
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    Default Re: DK2 GOG + GiM + PiE

    Quote Originally Posted by notfree25 View Post
    Made it to the blue keeper who suddenly turned ally.
    Actually, the Blue guys on that map aren't supposed to be from another Keeper, they're your creatures who are besieging Ironhelm's castle. Listen to the Mentor speeches, that should clear things up.
    There is absoluetly nothing wrong with DK Mobile, whatsoever.

  5. #145

    Default Re: DK2 GOG + GiM + PiE

    but they shot at my imps...

  6. #146
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: DK2 GOG + GiM + PiE

    notfree25, I expected you were going to be putting out some new discussion content about the merging between GIM and my patch, but being as it is ultimately just reviewing the patched campaign, I decided to merge the two threads.

    Quote Originally Posted by notfree25 View Post
    Anyone been playing campaign with GiM and PiE?
    I would hope not. It says in the main thread and in the readme that the balance patch is for 1.3 only. GIM uses 1.51 and 1.7. In versions 1.51 and onward, the campaign is much more difficult due to certain changes in those versions that provides a buff to common Heroes like Guards and Knights. Then in 1.7, the AI is retarded, which damages a variety of maps and can completely destroy Level 11 as that's literally the whole point, Keeper Battles.

    Quote Originally Posted by notfree25 View Post
    Level 6a 'Rout'
    Had to expand my domain as fast as possible. Creatures barely had free time, fight, sleep repeat. Made it to the Goodly Hero at his last stop and lured him away from his gang. Then explored the map. Made it to the blue keeper who suddenly turned ally.
    Quote Originally Posted by notfree25 View Post
    but they shot at my imps...
    Actually 6a is Siege, where as 6b is Rout. Technically.

    As Skarok says, the blue Keeper is supposed to represent your Creatures who are assaulting Ironhelm's castle while you're sneaking around back. The reason you're not allied with him is due to something technical more than anything. It's so you can't drop your Creatures on his territory, as you're all the way south and shouldn't have that same influence over what's going on with the attack up north.

    It is possible that I set up a script so that when you come into contact with the Blue Keeper, you two became allied. I don't remember though. If you're playing it with version 1.3

    Quote Originally Posted by notfree25 View Post
    Level 6b 'Siege'
    Felt like im the one under siege with hero parties attacking from 3 sides, but the attacks mostly stopped after i broke their 1st line. Also i messed up their patrol path?
    Elaborate.

    Quote Originally Posted by notfree25 View Post
    Converted 6 knights. Gold ran out pretty fast.
    Well, Heroes and Knights especially are pretty expensive, so this is really to be expected.

    Quote Originally Posted by notfree25 View Post
    Had to possess a level 9 knight to clear out most of the trap in front of the Goodly hero's room and break open the door.
    Oh, possession. Joy.

    Quote Originally Posted by notfree25 View Post
    Killed GH as he walked to attack me.
    GH? Goodly Hero? Are you referring to the Heroes in general or specifically the Lord, as you said 'he'. Either way, I'm not exactly happy to see AI abuse in possession.

    Quote Originally Posted by notfree25 View Post
    Level 7 'Caverns'
    Tried to make enemy keeper kill the Goodly Hero or the GH kill the keeper. Ran out of gold pretty quicky so lured the GH onto a bridge and cut him off, leaving him on a tile of bridge in the middle of lava. Killed him with ranged attacks,
    So you abused AI to get an easy win and skip 75% of the map? I know you did it at the beginning because it's impossible to do it at the end of the map due to a special script, I can't really implement the same script in the early part of the map due to the complex terrain.

    Quote Originally Posted by notfree25 View Post
    Level 8 'Aftermath'
    Ugh. Pretty much ran out of gold from the start, bridges are expensive... Casino didnt help much. Hero parties of giants and fairies are pretty OP. Fairies can use hailstorm to quickly wipe out my creatures. Between the attacks and paydays, im fk-ed
    I have to admit, there is a certain satisfaction seeing a Player cheese a map only to struggle with the next. It's basically punishment for skipping out on training. Level 7 introduces Fairies and Giants and can show you how to deal with them properly. It also begins training on resource management. Without that training in maps prior, it's no wonder that Level 8 is such a struggle.

    You can't just build bridges carelessly wherever you wish. You can't be careless with resources in general. Level 8 can very easily punish that. I've played it plenty of times myself and I know gold issues aren't that much of a problem, but that's only if you're conservative. If you aren't, then yes, it can be a major pain. Use terrain carefully to minimize the amount of bridge tiles you need to build. Build only what you need, don't go overboard at the beginning.

    The Casino is good for reducing large paydays. It reduces Paydays by half, essentially, as you can get half your gold back from a Payday. You need some micromanagement for it, however. Depends on the map and the size of your army.

    Giants have low Health and are incredibly slow, despite their massive burst damage. Fairies can be dangerous but are also like glass. Ranged units can make short work of them, though most ranged units are also glass, which a mid leveled Fairy can easily exploit. These are the only hints I'll give you.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

  7. #147
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: DK2 GOG + GiM + PiE

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    So if I'm understanding this correctly, you converted Rex's maps to 1.7 and will be playing through the whole campaign, with the first eleven or twelve or so being his versions of the maps and the rest being the remaining original/GIM maps of the campaign? Well I guess that's interesting. But the balance transition halfway through the campaign might seem a bit odd - but I don't really know.
    Well, that's kind of a given. You're merging two campaigns together that weren't meant to be played together. Not only that, but the simple fact that the patch is unfinished.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

  8. #148

    Default Re: DK2 GOG + GiM + PiE

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    So if I'm understanding this correctly, you converted Rex's maps to 1.7 and will be playing through the whole campaign, with the first eleven or twelve or so being his versions of the maps and the rest being the remaining original/GIM maps of the campaign? Well I guess that's interesting. But the balance transition halfway through the campaign might seem a bit odd - but I don't really know. Could you post the converted versions of his levels so I can try them out?
    I didnt convert anything.

    I installed GoG edition (1.7) and patched it with GiM
    Then patched PiE over it...

    As for Siege level, I was constantly under attack at first. Then i managed to break into the Hero's outer defenses and started digging out some terrain. I think that messed up the patrol path, the patrol just sort of stay in one area, in the ruined outer defense. I could easily evade them by dropping my creatures pass them, directly into the 2nd layer of defense. Not sure why the attacks stopped.

    For 'caverns', I opened up the map in editor to check the creature pool for mistresses. The amount of gold i had and the level of my creatures made me feel like it is impossible to actually complete that huge map. The small amount of remaining gold on the map is discouraging too. Abusing AI was my favorite thing in vanilla DK2. Routing the 3 princes and trapping them was deliciously fun, esp. with hidden doors. Turncoat spells are fun for messing with patrols, which i hear is no longer available. Making enemy keepers fight each other and then crushing the winner more so.

    Im not sure how resource management go in DK2. Do i use cheap creatures?
    Casinos are kinda useless when my creatures are going from one fight to another, defending and attacking. Barely have time to eat, especially considering the location of lair and hatchery.

    The Giants and Fairies,
    I usually wait until the fairies are on land, throw down some imps and have them get hit by thunderstorm, then drop my creatures. My only viable tank is the troll.. do i drop ranged creature to take out giants slowly? Micro managing a fight will take time that i cant spare.
    Last edited by notfree25; April 5th, 2014 at 04:42.

  9. #149
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    Default Re: DK2 GOG + GiM + PiE

    Quote Originally Posted by notfree25 View Post
    I didnt convert anything.

    I installed GoG edition (1.7) and patched it with GiM
    Then patched PiE over it...

    As for Siege level, I was constantly under attack at first. Then i managed to break into the Hero's outer defenses and started digging out some terrain. I think that messed up the patrol path, the patrol just sort of stay in one area, in the ruined outer defense. I could easily evade them by dropping my creatures pass them, directly into the 2nd layer of defense. Not sure why the attacks stopped.

    For 'caverns', I opened up the map in editor to check the creature pool for mistresses. The amount of gold i had and the level of my creatures made me feel like it is impossible to actually complete that huge map. The small amount of remaining gold on the map is discouraging too. Abusing AI was my favorite thing in vanilla DK2. Routing the 3 princes and trapping them was deliciously fun, esp. with hidden doors. Turncoat spells are fun for messing with patrols, which i hear is no longer available. Making enemy keepers fight each other and then crushing the winner more so.

    Im not sure how resource management go in DK2. Do i use cheap creatures?
    Casinos are kinda useless when my creatures are going from one fight to another, defending and attacking. Barely have time to eat, especially considering the location of lair and hatchery.

    The Giants and Fairies,
    I usually wait until the fairies are on land, throw down some imps and have them get hit by thunderstorm, then drop my creatures. My only viable tank is the troll.. do i drop ranged creature to take out giants slowly? Micro managing a fight will take time that i cant spare.
    So from what I am getting this straight, so you are saying you suck ass and have to abuse the AI in order to win? That you can't be bothered to do the maps the right way? That you are unable to since you rely on finding out how to cheat the system?

    Ok that is all I needed to know.

    TRapping the Princes wasn't so much an abuse since you had to trap them 1 way or another to win the level. So I see nothing wrong here.

    Turncoat was an OP spell I felt so I am glad it is AI spell only. It adds more challenge now since the AI has a 1-up on you. Even just one creature turning on you could play quite a different in the fight or the entire map even. Also it is still possible to get Keepers to fight each other.

    Rex made Gold more scarce and creatures cost more since in vanilla you could have junk paydays. You could have a powerful full sized army and it barely cost more than 10k a payday while you could mine up to 60k or higher with ease. Now you can't do it as easily since creatures cost more and oftentimes gold is protected or harder to get to. It challenges you, which vanilla didn't. Even I struggle a bit on the very poor maps but I assure you they are doable if you are a mix of cautious and adventurous. Turtling will doom you, so will being overly aggressive. You need to know when to strike and when to pull back.

    Micromanaging isn't hard, moreso when it isn't a big fight. So how you are having problems with just Giants and Fairies is surprising. But this isn't too unusual if you relied on taking advantage of all things to win and not learn how to play the game properly.


    I have played and tested all these maps and they are challenging, moreso on some than others, but that is what makes it fun. No matter who it is, everyone knows DK2 was piss easy. It isn't anymore. It makes you think since you can get screwed in a moment if you mess up. The point is to challenge you, not to find a cheap way of winning.



    I have also did cheap wins on some of the maps and it feels like crap doing so. Rex spent a long time on each of these maps, play through them fully and get the best experience from them. Winning isn't everything if you ignore 90% of the map and ruin the entire level.

    Play how you want, but I would try not abusing possession or you are in an even worse situation if you thought Caverns was hard.

  10. #150

    Default Re: DK2 GOG + GiM + PiE

    Quote Originally Posted by Shonji View Post
    So from what I am getting this straight, so you are saying you suck ass and have to abuse the AI in order to win? That you can't be bothered to do the maps the right way? That you are unable to since you rely on finding out how to cheat the system?

    Ok that is all I needed to know.

    TRapping the Princes wasn't so much an abuse since you had to trap them 1 way or another to win the level. So I see nothing wrong here.

    Turncoat was an OP spell I felt so I am glad it is AI spell only. It adds more challenge now since the AI has a 1-up on you. Even just one creature turning on you could play quite a different in the fight or the entire map even. Also it is still possible to get Keepers to fight each other.

    Rex made Gold more scarce and creatures cost more since in vanilla you could have junk paydays. You could have a powerful full sized army and it barely cost more than 10k a payday while you could mine up to 60k or higher with ease. Now you can't do it as easily since creatures cost more and oftentimes gold is protected or harder to get to. It challenges you, which vanilla didn't. Even I struggle a bit on the very poor maps but I assure you they are doable if you are a mix of cautious and adventurous. Turtling will doom you, so will being overly aggressive. You need to know when to strike and when to pull back.

    Micromanaging isn't hard, moreso when it isn't a big fight. So how you are having problems with just Giants and Fairies is surprising. But this isn't too unusual if you relied on taking advantage of all things to win and not learn how to play the game properly.


    I have played and tested all these maps and they are challenging, moreso on some than others, but that is what makes it fun. No matter who it is, everyone knows DK2 was piss easy. It isn't anymore. It makes you think since you can get screwed in a moment if you mess up. The point is to challenge you, not to find a cheap way of winning.



    I have also did cheap wins on some of the maps and it feels like crap doing so. Rex spent a long time on each of these maps, play through them fully and get the best experience from them. Winning isn't everything if you ignore 90% of the map and ruin the entire level.

    Play how you want, but I would try not abusing possession or you are in an even worse situation if you thought Caverns was hard.
    You win or you lose, thats all. If you get a sense " great pride and honor" for doing a map "the right way" thats you, evil keeper.

    The three princes can be attacked simultaneously, especially for someone like you who thinks "micromanaging isn't hard".

    I enjoy taking my time with some maps, making AI kill themselves off. I used turncoat to have patrols slowing kill themselves for my amusement in level 12 "scavenge".
    I use imps, traps and spells to finish as much of that map as possible just to see how AI react, i had fun gloating over stupid AI. I dont enjoy fights as much.

    I can and did kill the giants and fairies. ~2 parties between paydays, just leave so much time to attack and expand.

    If you're saying I suck because i "cheat", and your advice is to play fair, well gee thanks. I hope someone else appreciates your high and mighty advice and ill will.
    Have fun looking from the sidelines of a battlefield, Imma go possess a troll and destroy some traps.
    Last edited by notfree25; April 5th, 2014 at 06:31.

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