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Thread: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

  
  1. #161
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: DK2 GOG + GiM + PiE

    Quote Originally Posted by Shonji View Post
    We are all people, we make mistakes, we aren't always right, and people that think they are are often the biggest fools.
    Are you implying that I have made a mistake in my patch somewhere regarding the balance? Frankly, I find that to be the absolute epitome of arrogance. Listen here, young man. I'll have you know that I've had years of experience working with balance. I started since I was about 14, but my interest began when I was 11 and I was looking up statistics for DK1 Creatures. With the DKII Patch, I applied my long years of experience to achieve perfection in balance. I know damn well that I've succeeded in that. You're going to need some serious, ground-breaking proof if you want to convince me otherwise, to prove that I made a mistake somewhere in my patch. It doesn't matter though, because you won't find it. I know that I'm right. I know what I'm talking about, boy, don't be trying to say it any other way. Don't you come in here telling me how to work my patch. I don't care what your opinion is, it's your own opinion and you should keep it to yourself instead of wasting my time with it!

    Damn kids, telling me how to grow my lawn...

    Also.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    Of course, you were just full of it when you made these comments.

    If you're going to troll this forum, don't expect me to bother talking to you in the future.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    This kind of prattle is not a constructive way to start a conversation with someone, regardless if they're so-called "cheating" or "abusing" the game (in other, more truthful words they have a different play-style than you).
    I just wanted to point out how one-sided you can be with your perspective, Wyrmcast. The world works both ways, and a lot of the things you say and accuse others of being actually come back to you in the same way. Hopefully this example quote will help you realize that.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
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  2. #162
    Your Majesty Hapuga's Avatar
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    Default Re: DK2 GOG + GiM + PiE

    "Silently eats popcorn in the corner of the room"
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  3. #163
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    Suit yourself. At least now, I have the answer I was looking for.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
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  4. #164
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    Just thought I'd drop in with an update as to how the patch is going, and to say that it is still being worked on. I won't go into the details, but I will cover a large selection of changes that have been occurring throughout the patch.

    Patch 3.0 has been in progress for some time now. I haven't been able to do any work on multiplayer maps, but I have progressed with the campaign and the patch itself. Levels 12 and 13 are both done, but they're not fully playtested. Level 14 is in progress. I'm not sure if I should stop there or if I will advance on to Levels 15 and 16 for the next patch release.

    Level 12 is the start of when the revised campaign no longer resembles the original campaign in design, (due to uncreative / flawed design with the original levels or something to that effect) however they might still resemble what is believed to be the intended concept. Level 12 is an intense scavenge map, as mentioned here.

    As for Level 13, it's a mixture between an invasion and exploration map, with a significant focus on atmosphere. There's a lot to discover about the realm's 'lore', if I may call it so, so long as you pay attention to the details of the map. Outside of the Vampire invasion concept, I ended up creating something completely new and didn't even acknowledge the original map's design, as the vanilla map is soooo boring and uncreative (and surprisingly tiny). It's one of those maps that, when I try to think of the map's purpose, I just get a question mark to appear in my head. There's lots of other little flaws that reveal the lack of effort that went into this map, such as inconsistency with the spelling of Malleus, whether it is single or double l. I'm not sure which one is right so I just picked one and rolled with it. Still, I'm happy with how the revised map turned out. It's pretty interesting, challenging, and the invasion with Malleus is pretty sweet.

    Regarding Creature updates, the Firefly will be reintroduced without removing the Horned Reaper or anything. For those who don't know, I couldn't add the Firefly because the game crashes unless someone has the special 'Horny' status, and I couldn't add it to Elite Creatures, supposedly, even after removing all Elite references. However, Decagon tried adding the status to an Elite Creature and it worked fine, and I tried it again and it also worked fine. I'm not sure why it didn't work to begin with as I didn't do anything different. But anywho, the Firefly will be back in Patch 3.0. I have a new concept for him ready to go as it stands, but it is untested. The Firefly addition began literally yesterday, actually.

    The Royal Guard concept is scrapped in favor of a Light Warden concept, similar to the Thief concept removed for the Mercenary concept. The Light Warden has three unique spells, Banish, Light Ward, and Shining Spear. Banish is a fairly strong stun ability, while Light Ward is quite special in that it sets up a long term damage AoE. Shining Spear is like a higher ranged melee attack that pierces through foes. In general, the Light Warden is a more aggressive unit in comparison to the Guard and her spells are set up to allow either for good combos or to stack damage over time.

    There have been a number of changes to a variety of existing Creatures / Heroes as well, though more significant changes involve the Mistress, Vampire, Guard, Templar, Mercenary, Samurai, Elven Archer, and Monk.

    The Mistress has gone through a number of changes, but her biggest changes involve her spell set and job selection. She sacrificed her second Lightning for Thunder, making her less situational. She also no longer tortures herself and now takes damage from torture. This makes her less annoying to manage, as the torture job is quite bugged, while also balancing her better when it comes to conversion.

    The Vampire received a new, personal spell to replace Chicken, which is a *much* better version of Cyclone. Basically, think about Cyclone in vanilla DK2. Now imagine it effecting mostly enemy units only and also damaging only enemies, making it a great AoE disabler and potentially powerful combo ability with other support units.

    Guards (and Knights, among others) have been rebalanced due to changes with the Heal Spell, but the Guard was affected the most as he gets the spell early on and revolves around his support spells. His stats were dropped but he gains the spell a level earlier, making it so the spell is a more significant part of the Guard's identification as a unit. The ability to heal himself and increase his own survivability makes up for any stat drops.

    The Templar's spell set has been completely revised, improving her capabilities and making her more late than mid / early game, but no real spoilers on that one yet. She makes an official introduction in Level 13.

    The Mercenary and Samurai had both their Health and Attack stats notably altered, with the Mercenary receiving boosts in both and the Samurai sacrificing some Health for a larger boost in Attack. The Samurai also gained a rather interesting personal spell at Level 10, called Critical Strike. When it goes off right, it is a real killer technique that completely destroys enemy support, especially if they're fragile. I'll hold onto the details for now though, of course.

    The Elven Archer's Guided Arrow was exchanged for Piercing Arrow, making her more interesting as a Hero support unit in the early game especially. Aside from changing the spell so its designed to have more spread as opposed to single target direct damage, Piercing Arrow has a much lower recharge time, making the Elven Archer more DPS than burst.

    The Monk's changes affect player side really, but his experience rates were reduced considerably, especially training. This makes him considerably less powerful by delaying his super support spells, but justifiably so. I always felt he was too strong because he's not only the ultimate healer, but he also has no problem leveling and thus can easily gain Great Invulnerable. Leveling up past 8 also grants him significantly increased endurance, relatively even more so if he levels fast.

    There have been some significant changes to the Keeper Chicken and Create Gold spell. Chicken can now be cast anywhere, making it a powerful debuff ability to counter the just as powerful buff ability that is Keeper Invulnerable. It also makes the 'Immune to Chicken' trait, held by certain units, much more significant. It's interesting because that trait is a natural defense to the Chicken Spell, being a counter in and of itself, while Invulnerable also has its own Creature counter in the form of Lightning (and the less common Drain / Inferno) damage. Both Chicken and Invulnerable Keeper Spells are also confirmed to be available in Level 12.

    Create Gold has been revised to make it provide a more consistent amount of Gold, as opposed to varying a wild amount depending on mana resources. Although, in general, the spell was nerfed as I realized how powerful it was after doing some calculations.

    Regarding Doors, the Secret Door has finally been scrapped in favor of the Spiked Door, which acts as an actual 'Counterattack Door'. It differs from the Magic Door, in that the Magic Door is focused on surviving through massive regeneration values and being generally gimmicky, while the Spiked Door is simply meant to fight back with AoE Damage. The Magic Door itself has been revised to make it less spammy and frustrating with its lightning. The Hero Barricade / Portcullis will no longer be considered Hero only doors and will be available to any player, and eventually become available to the Player in the campaign (probably in Level 16).

    Boulders have been nerfed, indirectly, by doubling the Health / Damage values of everything else in the game (since I can't change damage values directly). The Fireburst Trap has also been almost completely revised to make it into a more 'normal' AoE trap as opposed to a super Trap. This is something I've been considering for a while and was finally convinced to do so through Skarok's suggestions.

    Other changes have been more global. I adjusted a lot of lighting effects to make the game more atmospheric, from terrain lighting to Creature and Object lighting. I took some time to adjust a lot of graphical effects for Creature Spells as well as improving spell offsets for Creatures. I'm also utilizing Effect Generators now for levels, and I found an unused, yet fully functional (outside lack of sound), lava fireball effect (makes me wonder why it was never used as it looks great). Impenetrable Rock no longer provides wall furniture, making it so they actually reduce room efficiency somewhat like in DK1 and also creating an extra, if subtle, level of depth in the dungeon building phase.

    A lot of these changes are very much experimental. I'm mostly interested in trying new things and further expanding the patch to find the best method to create my vision of the final work. Around the time I created the Wizard's spells, I developed a more in depth understanding of how the shot data works and how it can be altered to create new and more interesting spells. Shot data before was something I didn't bother with in patch 1.0, and barely started looking into in patch 2.0, towards the end. In the new patch update, you'll see that I really began exploring the possibilities there.

    I might post a video at some point showing off some things, like the Firefly, Light Warden, or some of the new spells and graphical effects. I have no idea when the patch will be ready for another update. It's possible that it might be soon™, it's possible that it will be something like half a year. A lot of it depends on what exactly I intend to include in the update. I'm not sure when I'll stop making campaign levels for the update, whether or not I'll end up including multiplayer map revisions, nor how much testing I'll have to end up doing. There's a lot of unknown variables there when it comes to a release date. If I end up trying to include a lot more in the patch update, I'll probably make a post about it.

    That's all I have to say on the patch for the time being.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
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  5. #165
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    Lavaballs. *_*

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    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
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  6. #166

    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    Here still waiting till it's done before downloading it. Mostly because of two reasons:

    1. I like to get patches when they are completely done, because if I would have played up to level 11 when it was there for some time... I would have been left with such a feeling of completition taken away from me because the rest of the levels were still not done. Nothing against your work, it's just how I am.

    2. The GoG version is patch 1.7 mostly, and I can't, for the life of me, be able to get the vanilla version and patch it to 1.3. It's just impossible for me, because everytime I get on the menu, it always says "1.7", no matter how many times I try to get a 1.3 version.

    Also, I seem to have noticed the Bile Demon... and no mentioning of him possessing the fart spell on his description. Did you remove it appearantly? Because I just find that a bit... wrong...

    I mean, I always found farting to be a significant aspect of the Bile Demon (That and their absurd hunger and "horn maces")

  7. #167
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zabii View Post
    1. I like to get patches when they are completely done, because if I would have played up to level 11 when it was there for some time... I would have been left with such a feeling of completition taken away from me because the rest of the levels were still not done. Nothing against your work, it's just how I am.
    Complete, as in, just the campaign or the entire patch?

    The campaign will take quite some time, as each level tends to take quite longer than the last to make due to them being increasingly more elaborate or simply built on larger maps. Then there's the multiplayer side of things, as I want to put a lot of work into that as well. I want to redesign the original maps (at least the maps that have some kind of creative concept or potential, a fair amount of vanilla maps seem really lackluster or essentially quite similar) and provide my own unique maps. Lastly, there's the core patch itself, which will take some time to create that dream balance that I am looking for while still making sure everything is very enjoyable to play with. I'm definitely getting there though.

    One of the reasons why it takes so long, and why multiplayer / balancing will especially take a while, is because a lack of feedback or playtesters. I end up having to do a good chunk of testing myself. For campaign levels, it's not that big of a deal. I can handle it. It would help to have different opinions related to testing the balance though, or just different experiences to draw information from in general. For multiplayer, well, it's obvious I can't really do that without additional players.

    I'm not going to make a real effort to try and convince you, but it is always nice to have someone try the patch while also being willing to make posts in order to provide feedback. Still, I most definitely understand what you mean by having the feeling of completion taken away from you. It certainly makes this a rather awkward situation indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zabii View Post
    2. The GoG version is patch 1.7 mostly, and I can't, for the life of me, be able to get the vanilla version and patch it to 1.3. It's just impossible for me, because everytime I get on the menu, it always says "1.7", no matter how many times I try to get a 1.3 version.
    1.3 is the vanilla version, actually. It is the clean DKII without any patches. Perhaps you've been patching it when you should not have been?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zabii View Post
    Also, I seem to have noticed the Bile Demon... and no mentioning of him possessing the fart spell on his description. Did you remove it appearantly? Because I just find that a bit... wrong...

    I mean, I always found farting to be a significant aspect of the Bile Demon (That and their absurd hunger and "horn maces")
    Originally, I removed the spell because I thought it was bugged. I realized it just had a really small AoE and used a special damage type, 'Range from Origin', which can sometimes bug out with small AoE effects. I noticed this with Hailstorm in vanilla as well. I ended up giving the Bile Demon an Invulnerable Self spell, which did make him pretty powerful, but ultimately, I ended up removing it for certain reasons related to balance and gameplay.

    Gameplay wise, it's actually a really bad idea to give the Bile Demon any sort of spell. The thing is, if he casts a spell, he has to stop himself to cast it. DK2 is not like DK1, where every attack animation is like 5-6 frames. Animations vary widely, and the Bile Demon has one of the slowest animations. Combined with his slow movement speed, well, basically, he won't have any chance of making it to the frontlines, and you'll have to do some annoying micromanaging to get him in front of other units to tank the hits. He's not really good for anything else in combat, so it would be better to not fault him in the area he's best at.
    Last edited by Metal Gear Rex; July 2nd, 2014 at 21:28.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
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  8. #168

    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    Complete, as in, just the campaign or the entire patch?
    Yes, the campaign. If it would have been just a patch balancing things in general, I would have downloaded it in no time. Mostly why I downloaded the GiM mod. I got it because I really wanted to face off against an AI that didn't drop one goblin to counterattack a mass Bile Demon rush.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    1.3 is the vanilla version, actually. It is the clean DKII without any patches. Perhaps you've been patching it when you should not have been?
    Oh! Okay, then yes. GoG merely gives me the 1.7 version, and I actually payed cash for it. I would then have to definetly get a copy of the game without the patch somewhere else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    Originally, I removed the spell because I thought it was bugged. I realized it just had a really small AoE and used a special damage type, 'Range from Origin', which can sometimes bug out with small AoE effects. I noticed this with Hailstorm in vanilla as well. I ended up giving the Bile Demon an Invulnerable Self spell, which did make him pretty powerful, but ultimately, I ended up removing it for certain reasons related to balance and gameplay.

    Gameplay wise, it's actually a really bad idea to give the Bile Demon any sort of spell. The thing is, if he casts a spell, he has to stop himself to cast it. DK2 is not like DK1, where every attack animation is like 5-6 frames. Animations vary widely, and the Bile Demon has one of the slowest animations. Combined with his slow movement speed, well, basically, he won't have any chance of making it to the frontlines, and you'll have to do some annoying micromanaging to get him in front of other units to tank the hits. He's not really good for anything else in combat, so it would be better to not fault him in the area he's best at.
    I can see what you mean now. Unless you give the fart some more useful function, like let's say, apply a stun to all creatures that were in the range of said fart (I honestly do not think anything could inhale such an odor and not pass out, at least RP-wise), giving him more versatility and counter goblin rushes to a certain degree.

    Though this would possibly mean just more work and frustration trying to fix a spell that tends to bug out, and the farting being part of the Bile Demon's abilities is merely more of a flavor thing to me, reminding me of DK1

  9. #169
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zabii View Post
    Yes, the campaign. If it would have been just a patch balancing things in general, I would have downloaded it in no time. Mostly why I downloaded the GiM mod. I got it because I really wanted to face off against an AI that didn't drop one goblin to counterattack a mass Bile Demon rush.
    The campaign won't take nearly as long, I think, especially as it seems I'll be focusing on it for quite some time. Although, Levels 16-20 will probably take some time. Level 20 especially.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zabii View Post
    Oh! Okay, then yes. GoG merely gives me the 1.7 version, and I actually payed cash for it. I would then have to definetly get a copy of the game without the patch somewhere else.
    Any hard copy of the game comes unpatched, though with the option to patch it up. I've bought DK2 a few times over the years for various reasons, and I've obtained different versions of the game, so I know this to be the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zabii View Post
    I can see what you mean now. Unless you give the fart some more useful function, like let's say, apply a stun to all creatures that were in the range of said fart (I honestly do not think anything could inhale such an odor and not pass out, at least RP-wise), giving him more versatility and counter goblin rushes to a certain degree.
    It would be more of a counter to Skeletons and other fragile units, rather than specifically Goblins. Goblins, while they have lower end stats, are still well rounded enough to have the durability necessary to survive this kind of AoE. They rely on being fed experience to reach Levels 9+ really fast in order to gain the insane benefits that those levels provide, stat wise. Goblins hitting Level 10 especially is a lot scarier than you might think when your own army is Level 7-.

    Goblin players should, in theory, win by using a lot of hit / run tactics to slowly feed EXP to their Goblins. It's difficult to counter, as while Goblins themselves will be semi-vulnerable to solid burst damage, the Goblin Player will likely utilize Trolls to resist the burst. The best strategy counter to Goblins would be either manipulating where you have your skirmishes to have some kind of trap support to better secure kills and steadily weaken the Goblin army, or by fighting aggressively and killing the Player before the Goblins can get out of control.

    Anywho, the kind of AoE damage you were mentioning doesn't really fit the model of the current tanks, at least on the Creature Side. The Bile Demon specifically is meant to revolve around pure, solid health. Granting a kind of AoE spell for a tank is something I'd do for the Maiden, if I just had access to her. She's a tank that has various kinds of disabler abilities. She's more of a control based tank with more elaborate usage. Outside of that, AoE damage already exists in multiple ways on both the Creature and Hero Side.

    On the Creature Side, the Horned Reaper is best known for his AoE. He has the most powerful AoE spell in the game, Inferno. Outside of that, Warlocks gain Hailstorm and Fireflies have an AoE spell of their own. Vampires, at least in the update, also have an AoE spell but its very late so it's not something worth considering.

    On the Hero Side, AoE exists throughout the whole selection in many different forms. Most notably, there is the Blade Master, who can be seen as the counterpart to the Reaper as he has Cleave and Blade Flurry, two strong AoE abilities. The Wizard has a lot of burst AoE with his Ice Missile and Firestorm, and the Fairy has early access to Hailstorm compared to the Warlock. While Hero Side AoE is more across the board, they still don't have the intense kind of AoE that the Horned Reaper has. Well, the Wizard is kind of comparable, but it depends on the situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zabii View Post
    Though this would possibly mean just more work and frustration trying to fix a spell that tends to bug out, and the farting being part of the Bile Demon's abilities is merely more of a flavor thing to me, reminding me of DK1
    Well, I think you misunderstood, or maybe I wasn't clear enough. In vanilla, the Gas Spells / Hailstorm seemed buggy. However, I eventually realized it was a case of the spells having really small effect ranges. The Gas spells had a range of literally just 1 tile, it means it effects are limited to everything in the tile its cast in. Given that it's given to the Bile Demon / Gas Trap only, fairly large objects, collision comes into play. Very rarely do you have a case of another Creature fitting on the same tile as the Bile Demon. Because of that, a lot of the time, the spell wouldn't even be in range of the enemy Creature and it would have a null effect as a result.

    Fixing the spell's original problem would be easy. All I have to do is increase the range to a 2 tile radius or something, as I did with Hailstorm to make that spell much more consistently effective.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
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    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
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  10. #170

    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    It would be more of a counter to Skeletons and other fragile units, rather than specifically Goblins.
    I used Goblins as a mere example, mostly because out of all the creatures, they are the ones who tend to "stack up" against eachother whenever they are on the offensive, and AoE could really cripple them. As for my idea of a small AoE stun, was merely to see if there was anyway to reinclude his fart, making him a bit of a disabler tank, as the Maiden doesn't exist in the 1.3 version. Mostly because I find their animation of raising theirselves with their rather thin arms to show off their humongous bums at the enemies to release a fart cloud quite...

    Amusing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    Fixing the spell's original problem would be easy. All I have to do is increase the range to a 2 tile radius or something, as I did with Hailstorm to make that spell much more consistently effective.
    I did notice this on the 1.7 version with Wyrmcast's most recent patch of his mod, and actually had no real issue with the range of the Bile Demon fart or hailstorm. In fact, when I dropped a Bile Demon in a 3 x 4 combat pit, his fart pretty much hit his opponent... and all of the spectators around the pit.

    Edit: And don't get me wrong, once you release it with the full campaign, I'm definetly gonna try to install this patch on my game.
    Last edited by Zabii; July 3rd, 2014 at 04:35.

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