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Thread: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

  
  1. #21
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    A "minor" update here.

    I'm just going to explain how I'll be handling the various Creature units in terms of Damage and what changes I'll be doing related . This currently reflects solely on Melee Creatures, including the Firefly. This change is a result of one of DKII's (design) problems, that being that a long animation will overwrite a short recharge time. It is the only reason that the Black Knight defeats the Knight despite literally having the exact same stats.

    Firstly, I'm going to be increasing the recharge time of melee attacks and general abilities to ensure that all attack animations finish before the recharge time does. This will result in a noticeably slower battle, admittedly, but I would prefer that over imbalance.

    Secondly, I'm splitting up all Melee Units into three Damage Types: Heavy, Average, and Fast. These categories reflect their attack speed and power, with further details being self explanatory. Generally speaking, Heavy Hitters will have an overall higher damage output and outclass Fast Units in that sense. However, Fast Units will have the advantage of more frequent hits on stunned Units, outclassing Heavy Hitters in that area. This also effects which type of support they work best with.

    The problem mentioned above with imbalance is related to the Damage Types. I can only reduce the recharge time of a Melee Attack so much before it becomes shorter than the animation, resulting in the short recharge time becoming a possession only perk. This will then put faster Units such as the Salamander and Goblin at a more permanent disadvantage.

    Lastly, I'm changing the effects of hitting Stunned Units and the minimum stun requirement. The actual changes in the values are listed below. The reason why I'm changing the minimum stun requirement is simply part of the compromise of having to increase the recharge time of melee attacks in response to animations overlapping recharge times.

    The changes to the effects of hitting stunned units is to better reflect my desire, which is to have Fast Damage Types take advantage of stuns and not Heavy. By putting emphasis on an increased effect time, it allows Fast Types to get more hits in and to keep the stunned Unit down for longer while wracking up more damage. Doing the reverse would allow a lucky set of Heavy Types (or a Player with very good typing) multiply the Heavy Units' already high damage to insane values, causing Heavies to easily outclass Fasties, thus killing the whole point of all these changes.

    Now onto the changes. I haven't actually tested these values yet as I've just created them today. They're estimates based on past experience and knowledge of other Unit functions in and out of battle. Of course, I'm going to change them once I am able to get some good testing in.

    Code:
    1.25 Seconds  =  Minimum Recharge Time, Fast
    2.75 Seconds  =  Average Recharge Time
    4.00 Seconds  =  Longest Recharge Time
    Minimum Stun Time    =  1 (Compared to 0 in Previous Patch)
    Stun Effect When Hit =  +60% Stun Time, +20% Damage (Compared to +25% Stun Time, +100% Damage in Original)
    
    
    CREATURE        =  DPS; Actual Damage Per Actual Recharge Time (Type)
    
    CREATURES
    
    Damage Output Strongest to Weakest
    1. DARK ANGEL   =  68.0; 153 Per 2.25 Seconds (Average)
    2. BLACK KNIGHT =  43.1; 151 Per 3.50 Seconds (Heavier)
    3. SKELETON     =  42.2; 116 Per 2.75 Seconds (Average)
    4. BILE DEMON   =  35.0; 140 Per 4.00 Seconds (Heaviest)
    5. GOBLIN       =  27.2;  34 Per 1.25 Seconds (Fastest)
    6. SALAMANDER   =  24.0;  42 Per 1.75 Seconds (Faster)
    7. ROGUE        =  20.0;  50 Per 2.50 Seconds (Average)
    8. TROLL        =  15.0;  45 Per 3.00 Seconds (Heavy)
    9. FIREFLY      =   8.0;  16 Per 2.00 Seconds (Fast)
    
    Heaviest to Fastest
    4. BILE DEMON   =  35.0; 140 Per 4.00 Seconds (Heaviest)
    2. BLACK KNIGHT =  43.1; 151 Per 3.50 Seconds (Heavier)
    8. TROLL        =  15.0;  45 Per 3.00 Seconds (Heavy)
    3. SKELETON     =  42.2; 116 Per 2.75 Seconds (Average)
    7. ROGUE        =  20.0;  50 Per 2.50 Seconds (Average)
    1. DARK ANGEL   =  68.0; 153 Per 2.25 Seconds (Average)
    9. FIREFLY      =   8.0;  16 Per 2.00 Seconds (Fast)
    6. SALAMANDER   =  24.0;  42 Per 1.75 Seconds (Faster)
    5. GOBLIN       =  27.2;  34 Per 1.25 Seconds (Fastest)
    
    
    
    HEROES
    
    Damage Output Strongest to Weakest
    1. LORD OF THE LAND =  66.0; 198 Per 3.00 Seconds (Average)
    2. GIANT            =  50.0; 200 Per 4.00 Seconds (Heaviest)
    3. ROYAL GUARD      =  48.0; 168 Per 3.50 Seconds (Heavy)
    4. KNIGHT           =  40.0; 110 Per 2.75 Seconds (Average)
    5. GUARD            =  32.0;  80 Per 2.50 Seconds (Average)
    6. THIEF            =  19.3;  29 Per 1.50 Seconds (Faster)
    7. MONK             =  16.5;  29 Per 1.75 Seconds (Fast)
    8. DWARF            =  11.2;  14 Per 1.25 Seconds (Fastest)
    
    Heaviest to Fastest
    2. GIANT            =  50.0; 200 Per 4.00 Seconds (Heaviest)
    3. ROYAL GUARD      =  48.0; 168 Per 3.50 Seconds (Heavy)
    1. LORD OF THE LAND =  66.0; 198 Per 3.00 Seconds (Average)
    4. KNIGHT           =  40.0; 110 Per 2.75 Seconds (Average)
    5. GUARD            =  32.0;  80 Per 2.50 Seconds (Average)
    7. MONK             =  16.5;  29 Per 1.75 Seconds (Fast)
    6. THIEF            =  19.3;  29 Per 1.50 Seconds (Faster)
    8. DWARF            =  11.2;  14 Per 1.25 Seconds (Fastest)
    
    
    
    CREATURES AND HEROES
    
    Damage Output Strongest to Weakest
    1.  DARK ANGEL       =  68.0; 153 Per 2.25 Seconds (Average)
    2.  LORD OF THE LAND =  66.0; 198 Per 3.00 Seconds (Average)
    3.  GIANT            =  50.0; 200 Per 4.00 Seconds (Heaviest)
    4.  ROYAL GUARD      =  48.0; 168 Per 3.50 Seconds (Heavy)
    5.  BLACK KNIGHT     =  43.1; 151 Per 3.50 Seconds (Heavier)
    6.  SKELETON         =  42.2; 116 Per 2.75 Seconds (Average)
    7.  KNIGHT           =  40.0; 110 Per 2.75 Seconds (Average)
    8.  BILE DEMON       =  35.0; 140 Per 4.00 Seconds (Heaviest)
    9.  GUARD            =  32.0;  80 Per 2.50 Seconds (Average)
    10. GOBLIN           =  27.2;  34 Per 1.25 Seconds (Fastest)
    11. SALAMANDER       =  24.0;  42 Per 1.75 Seconds (Faster)
    12. ROGUE            =  20.0;  50 Per 2.50 Seconds (Average)
    13. THIEF            =  19.3;  29 Per 1.50 Seconds (Faster)
    14. MONK             =  16.5;  29 Per 1.75 Seconds (Fast)
    15. TROLL            =  15.0;  45 Per 3.00 Seconds (Heavy)
    16. DWARF            =  11.2;  14 Per 1.25 Seconds (Fastest)
    17. FIREFLY          =   8.0;  16 Per 2.00 Seconds (Fast)
    
    Heaviest to Fastest
    3.  GIANT            =  50.0; 200 Per 4.00 Seconds (Heaviest)
    8.  BILE DEMON       =  35.0; 140 Per 4.00 Seconds (Heaviest)
    4.  ROYAL GUARD      =  48.0; 168 Per 3.50 Seconds (Heavy)
    5.  BLACK KNIGHT     =  43.1; 151 Per 3.50 Seconds (Heavier)
    2.  LORD OF THE LAND =  66.0; 198 Per 3.00 Seconds (Average)
    15. TROLL            =  15.0;  45 Per 3.00 Seconds (Heavy)
    6.  SKELETON         =  42.2; 116 Per 2.75 Seconds (Average)
    7.  KNIGHT           =  40.0; 110 Per 2.75 Seconds (Average)
    9.  GUARD            =  32.0;  80 Per 2.50 Seconds (Average)
    12. ROGUE            =  20.0;  50 Per 2.50 Seconds (Average)
    1.  DARK ANGEL       =  68.0; 153 Per 2.25 Seconds (Average)
    17. FIREFLY          =   8.0;  16 Per 2.00 Seconds (Fast)
    11. SALAMANDER       =  24.0;  42 Per 1.75 Seconds (Faster)
    14. MONK             =  16.5;  29 Per 1.75 Seconds (Fast)
    13. THIEF            =  19.3;  29 Per 1.50 Seconds (Faster)
    10. GOBLIN           =  27.2;  34 Per 1.25 Seconds (Fastest)
    16. DWARF            =  11.2;  14 Per 1.25 Seconds (Fastest)
    Also added to the first post for easy reference.

    EDIT:
    Added Heroes.
    Last edited by Metal Gear Rex; August 19th, 2012 at 17:30.
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  2. #22
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    Never thought I'd say this, but I think the Black Knight is underpowered. >.>

    Oof.

    Actually I think so is the Dark Angel and maybe the Vampire, though I'm not as sure about those two as I haven't playtested with them enough. At least not recently. What happened was that, while I gave them general weaknesses for being "Big Three" units such as high pay and slow training rates, I ended up giving them definite weaknesses in battle to counter their strong points.

    With the Black Knight, it's his slow speed and stun time to counter his high health and raw attack power. (He's more of a heavy hitter with low attack rate, his DPS isn't too terribly high).

    The Dark Angel has really high attack power (and a high attack speed, an extra plus for stunned enemies) but he has fragile defenses. He also still has limitations with attraction, a bit more so than the Black Knight because he requires specifically a 5x5 Temple, rather than just 25 tiles of Temple, and that isn't always as easily possible. Plus there's still the whole "2 Dark Angels" deal but that isn't as much of a problem as you usually don't want more than that. At the very least, Temple cost has been reduced from 3000 to 2000, due to a drop in its ability to generate mana.

    And the Vampire... well I haven't looked too much into him but I think I reduced the Decompose Value for creatures a bit too much. (75 for Creatures, 100 for Heroes, 0 for Monk/Fairy, 150 for the Knight, 250 for Big Three/Royal Guard, and 1000 for Lord/Regy/Princes though the latter two values are fine) I haven't been able to check much into his combat situation but I think he's pretty decent there due to Drain, but I may want to give his Health a minor boost. I know I have to take away his Skeleton Army since it's glitched. :/

    So yeah, gotta fix all that. I'll probably just lessen the weaknesses or something along those lines.

    Edit:
    At the very least, I've proven that they can be balanced while keeping to their original conceptual unit roles. Though they'd be a sort of extreme type of unit, with extreme strengths and weaknesses, so it'd be kind of weird. But that's not the path I want to go down, being as their Unit Roles would run too similar to other units. The Black Knight to the Bile Demon as the tank, the Dark Angel to the Skeleton as the glass cannon, and the Vampire... well actually he doesn't compare much to anyone. Perhaps the Dark Elf due to his ability to take a lot of hits for a support unit with Drain, or the Dark Mistress because I gave him a second Chicken Spell to replace his Skeleton Army, thus he can chicken enemies similar to her stunning/freezing them, but it's not quite the same.
    Last edited by Metal Gear Rex; December 30th, 2012 at 10:41.
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  3. #23
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    So I figured out a way to make the Horned Reaper a normal creature. For some reason, I cannot make uniques, even if I uncheck "Is Unique", into "Horny". The game does not load when entering the level. So I need to make a normal creature into Horny. Normally, I would use one of the three princes since they have the exact same data, but because it's my patch, and my patch has something the original DKII lacks (effort), the princes are very different. So this is not an option, in other words.

    However, one solution is to make an existing creature into "Horny", then modifying the unique version of that creature to replace the standard version, and bam. It works. There are some downsides to that, but nothing that effects gameplay, fortunately. The unique variation cannot properly execute all animations (slap, sleep, and things like that. Battle animations and other standard animations seem to work fine. Note that I only tested it with the DA, other unique creatures may be capable of proper animations) and it will be more difficult to modify availability of the creature in Skirmish/Multiplayer. (But still possible and reasonable)

    So with this good news, there is naturally some bad news. I have discovered that DKII actually wants to remain a bad game. The more I get on the right path to fix it, the more it fights back against me. I've encountered so many glitches recently that I just have no words. The game has also crashed at the most absurd of times for completely illogical reasons... more than usual. And I'm still in the "stable" 1.3 version. In fact, during one game, I got a consistent crash right when I killed the Blue Keeper, but when I killed Green and later Blue, it was fine.

    Seriously, this game does not want to be fixed. But I'm going to fix it, no matter how much it kicks and screams.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
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  4. #24
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    So I'm getting pretty close to releasing a demo of sorts, as my signature says if anybody pays attention to that. Everything is all coming together rather nicely. There is just one major problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    So with this good news, there is naturally some bad news. I have discovered that DKII actually wants to remain a bad game. The more I get on the right path to fix it, the more it fights back against me. I've encountered so many glitches recently that I just have no words. The game has also crashed at the most absurd of times for completely illogical reasons... more than usual. And I'm still in the "stable" 1.3 version. In fact, during one game, I got a consistent crash right when I killed the Blue Keeper, but when I killed Green and later Blue, it was fine.
    This pretty much. Somehow, the moods for certain creatures has been shut off. Completely, I think. And... to be frank, for no good reason. This includes the Horned Reaper, Black Knight, and Vampire, which is obviously a problem. Due to the illogicality of this error, it is very, very difficult to identify the source. I have some examples to express how illogical this glitch is.

    For those of you who have been seeing my messages in the chat, you'll know that I had to redo my entire patch on another level in order to get around a certain problem. The problem is the one I mentioned above. While I said that the unique variation of a DA could not initiate animations properly, I was mistaken. Apparently, that glitch is caused by giving a creature the "Horny" status and then removing it. Long story short, because the Horny AI has no need for a running animation/stun animaiton/etc, it doesn't check for those animations. When the status is removed, the game forgets to update the creature settings and it still doesn't check for those animaitons, resulting in a bugged normal creature. This is permanent, so I had to redo it all to get around that. I finished redoing that today.

    Anyways, the point of mentioning this is to say that I have two patch files right now. They're not exactly the same as I did some changes to certain stats in the newer patch, but it's nothing that should cause this issue. In the old patch, the Wizard would gain 20000 annoyance from a slap, as this was back when I had no idea how the mood system worked (I've come to the conclusion that I still don't) and I just judged based on other values. He'd get unhappy by one or two slaps, then angry by a third. The Wizard in the new patch gets 13120 annoyance from a slap. And no matter how many times I slap him, he never gets annoyed. What's more is that the Knight also has the same value for annoyance from a slap, and it works fine for him. He gets unhappy after a second slap. I even tried changing the Wizard's annoyance from 13120 to 20000 but it didn't work. What's even more odd is that I noticed such moodless behavior from the Dark Angel in my old patch file, but in the new patch file, he would get angry normally.

    So that is just how weird this glitch is and I have no idea on how to fix it, aside from doing very tedious checking of statistical changes I made between the old and new patch file for the slim chance of finding out what was wrong.

    So yeah, that's what I've been up to lately in terms of Patch Work.

    It sucks.

    A lot.

    And if it wasn't clear by this point, then I'm going to make it clear now. DKII does not love me. I even come home with flowers, sweets, and money, and she just slaps me.
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  5. #25
    Imp drubjak's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    And when this update is going to be available? Very interested in it.

  6. #26
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    Quote Originally Posted by drubjak View Post
    And when this update is going to be available? Very interested in it.
    Soon, actually. There's not much stopping me from releasing a demo. In the demo, I'm planning on releasing modifications for the normal Skirmish/Multiplayer maps to be played. They have different file names and don't overwrite the normal files so no worries on that. I just need to finish up said modifications. For most of the maps, modifications are pretty light (for now) and mostly consist of a rebalancing of resources. There are a few maps (like Caverns) which took a heavy redesign.

    Anyways, it'll be available soon. Maybe two weeks? I don't want to make any promises but it seems reasonably possible that I'll be done with the modifications for the S/M maps and also satisfied with the patch enough to release it by then. I'm pretty satisfied already, though I still haven't figured out the solution to that problem I mentioned above, with the annoyance values. I may end up releasing the demo with that included if I still can't find a solution.
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  7. #27
    Your Majesty Hapuga's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    MGR, when releasing, make sure to have a "clean" patch (one that doesn't affect the core game files) and the actual patch.

    I'm asking because I'm playing on a working original version, and I'm not planning to break it any time soon
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  8. #28
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hapuga View Post
    MGR, when releasing, make sure to have a "clean" patch (one that doesn't affect the core game files) and the actual patch.

    I'm asking because I'm playing on a working original version, and I'm not planning to break it any time soon
    Define "clean" a little more because I don't fully understand.

    The patch is basically modified global and level variable changes made with the editor, so it only effects levels it's applied to, rather than the whole game. I don't really know how to modify any core game files.

    All of the updated Skirmish/Multiplayer levels I include in the full patch are renamed anyways, so they don't actually overwrite the original maps. (I have a Creature and Hero variation of each S/M map and put [C] or [H] at the end of the file name) The updated Campaign, of course, will always overwrite the original.
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  9. #29
    Your Majesty Hapuga's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    If you are modifying any executables/dlls/libs/resources that directly affect the performance of the game, please provide a patch that only has the balance fixes. In case you are only working on balance, cool.
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  10. #30
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    I was planning on releasing a demo last Saturday, but I decided to delay it another week, at least. Hopefully, it won't delay more than two weeks. There were two things that stopped me, both appearing Thursday.

    The first thing is that I found out the reason behind the Workshop Glitch. It turns out, it's not exclusive to my patch at all. The original, and 1.7 apparently, also have it. What the glitch does is basically cause all manufactured items to have the same manufacture value as the first item manufactured. It is unfortunately very consistent, if not always consistent. I think the reason why I found out about it only now is because my patch uses a large range of manufacture values, with the Wooden Door costing 500 and the Magic Door costing 30000, for example. This would make the glitch become much more apparent.

    What I had to do in response to this is balance Trap and Door costs around the fact that everything will be produced at the same speed. I've adjusted Gold Costs a bit more but now I need to make sure it's not too expensive for some of the later Traps.

    The second thing is that, after battling against a Turtle a couple times (Keeper Decagon), I found that Traps could still use a considerable amount of work, along with a few creatures. The creature changes are minor for the most part, I suppose, and wouldn't really require much testing to support the changes. The Traps, however, are something I definitely need to have a more in-depth look at. And that is exactly what I have been doing. I had a four hour game with NerdyTB last night devoted to testing of various trap combinations and, even though the game ended abruptly due to my internet cutting off for a moment, it proved to be a very productive testplay.

    So that's pretty much why I have not yet released the patch demo. But I do have some good news. I mentioned a problem with the moods how some creatures seem to never get annoyed. Well, I figured out the problem that was causing such behavior. As I suspected, it was something really stupid. Apparently, anyone who is set to Fearless will also become Emotionless. It's unfortunate, but it looks like I'll have to remove the Fearless trait for, well, pretty much everyone. At the very least, I did discover the problem so no more emotionless Horned Reapers.

    And that's generally all of what I've been up to.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
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