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Thread: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

  
  1. #41
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    I am planning on giving Prince Balder and Felix the boot, keeping it to only one Prince. As a tradeoff, I want to add two new Heroes, the Samurai and Templar. They seem to add much more variety. They're featured in my newly released campaign, Final Conquest. That is one of the reasons why I was pushing for the campaign release rather than progressing more on the patch, as that is technically progressing on the patch by providing an experiment. It's less direct but yeah.

    Anyways, I'll likely make the change at some point and then have another release of the patch if I end up changing the levels significantly as a result. Unless of course someone has some serious objection backed by good reason as to why I shouldn't add them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    Replacing Prince Balder and Felix allows me to create two new Heroes: the Samurai and Templar. The Samurai can be distinguished from the Templar by his brown hair and beard. The Templar also wears a helmet. The Samurai uses the normal Knight voice, while the Templar, being a female, uses the Fairy voice. Their general movement speeds can also give them away as the Samurai is much faster.

    The Samurai is a quick hitter, the only real quick hitter for the Hero Side, and is quite good with damage. He is an effective blitzer, with Thunder and Freeze at Levels 5 and 7 respectively. The Templar is a more defensive unit, being slower and offensively weaker than a Knight but having more Health and spells. She gains Invulnerable at Level 4, Flame (Reaper's stunning Fireball) at Level 7, and Light (A super Missile unique to the Templar) at Level 9. She can also regain a bit of Health on her own land but suffers from a bad stun time.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

  2. #42
    Beetle
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    This is by far one of the best mods/patches I have seen in a game so far. This literally turned the entire game practically totally around.

    I was shocked seeing mid to high level heroes in the very first levels, which you didn't see til really the last level. +

    Seeing the heroes have buffs, some being very different from before is amazing, reminds me of DK1 again. Heroes were meant to be way more powerful than most of your creatures, now they are all are again. Also I hate wizards again lol. +

    It is a shame that your hold count seems to be I believe 10, but then again I like it since it reminds me of DK1 and its 8 hold limit. I always found it cheap you could hold I think it was like 70 things in your hand, but just got used to it, more strategic now. +

    Only played for a few hours and only on level 4, normally I am at around level 10 or so by now. I am looking forward to the later levels, also really looking forward to the complete patch of the entire campaign. I can only cry for what the King level would be like. Going to see if I can get a few friends to download this and see the differences, maybe get a MP round going. Keep up the good work Rex!

  3. #43
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shonji View Post
    I was shocked seeing mid to high level heroes in the very first levels, which you didn't see til really the last level. +
    I find it interesting that you mention the last level, because I realized somewhat recently that the Level 10 Wizards and Royal Guards you see in the King's chamber during the intro are just for show. They end up getting replaced by Level 8s and 4s, which are significantly weaker. A Level 8 melee Creature is only half as strong as a Level 10 melee Creature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shonji View Post
    Seeing the heroes have buffs, some being very different from before is amazing, reminds me of DK1 again. Heroes were meant to be way more powerful than most of your creatures, now they are all are again. Also I hate wizards again lol. +
    Well, Heroes are supposed to be designed to be enemy units. The other thing is that Heroes come in smaller numbers, where as you possess a larger quantity of Creatures. So they should be buffed to equalize that. That difference between quality and quantity was one thing I really liked about DK1's Heroes vs Creatures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shonji View Post
    It is a shame that your hold count seems to be I believe 10, but then again I like it since it reminds me of DK1 and its 8 hold limit. I always found it cheap you could hold I think it was like 70 things in your hand, but just got used to it, more strategic now. +
    It's 12 now. It's designed to counter exploitable things like holding prisoners in your Hand-of-Evil. It also makes it more difficult to drop your entire army in response to a threat, or do a mass retreat. You have to be faster and think quickly of who you want to drop first, or who needs to be taken away first. It takes a little getting used to but I very much like it.

    In vanilla DKII, the limit was 64.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shonji View Post
    Only played for a few hours and only on level 4, normally I am at around level 10 or so by now.
    I bet you're going to enjoy Level 6. That's when the difficulty takes another step up. Converting is also much more difficult than both the original DKII and DKI. Level 10 is another step up in difficulty, as is Level 11.

    If you get to Level 6 before I release my next update (probably will), then you should go on the offense and attack the castle. That level can be played out offensively or defensively, and in multiple ways for each method, but I found an error in the level design that made it impossible to win defensively as the Lord doesn't come out to attack you. Or rather, he can't, because of locked doors I forgot to remove. I have it fixed but I've yet to post an update. I will when I play through the campaign again and finish making little changes here and there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shonji View Post
    I am looking forward to the later levels, also really looking forward to the complete patch of the entire campaign. I can only cry for what the King level would be like. Going to see if I can get a few friends to download this and see the differences, maybe get a MP round going. Keep up the good work Rex!
    Well, when you get to Level 9, you will see a preview of King Reginald.

    Right now I'm currently working out a major change of direction regarding the patch, which basically creates more balance by removing all tiers except for the normal Creature tier and Boss tier. At the moment, Black Knights, Vampires, Dark Angels, and Horned Reapers are considered first class and are much more expensive/difficult to manage to make up for their more blatant strengths (though they still have counterable weaknesses). Royal Guards, Stone Knights, and Princes are First Class on the Hero Side. This revision will weaken these Creatures but make them as manageable as any ordinary Creature. The advantages of this is it's easier to get a more diverse army, with so many units that you have many more choices while still retaining a balanced army. Black Knights and Bile Demons, for example, compete for the tank role but still function considerably differently.

    There's other changes to the patch that I've implemented but haven't uploaded yet. Here's a preview.

    New Possibilities

    Last edited by Metal Gear Rex; November 15th, 2013 at 19:41.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    I found that king level messed up and noticed that too. Also noticed how there is like 8 hero gates in his room and they do nothing. I found that level sad seeing as it was easy and the final level. I often left the hero gates open since they helped you more than harmed you once you had an army. You could easily beat that level with 100+ troops if you converted or mass made skeletons and vampires. I never bothered training my troops past 4 in that level since even the king and his guards fell quickly when 100 lvl4s are pounding on them, a good amount of the time I would lose like 5 guys if even. If/when you get to that level, I suggest turning all those hero gates on and spew out tons of heroes from them. That would make a true final battle. I remember seeing in Populous 3 The Beginning's trailer for DK2, it show the King charging at your base, maybe add that into the level as well, make the level timed where after x time, him and his entire army will charge right at you. This would allow you to play defensively and also always have a chance(rather large on how hard you make the level) to lose, since even if you failed to kill him in your attack, he would just stand there til you came back and attacked again. That would be a sight to see, the King and like 40 heroes coming at you, forcing you to throw everything you have at him plus a ton of traps or watch as you get torn apart easily.

    The hero strengths is one of the big ones DK1 did right that DK2 fell on its face with.

    I wasn't complaining about the hand limit. I love that it is low. Makes battles way more risky and interesting vs dropping everything you have at once and being able to pick them all up with little concern of losing many troops

    I saw the 2 videos of level 6 and look forward to it


    I read about what you were going to do with the Templar and Samurai. I like the idea since the Princes really were just copies of each other. At least now one unique Prince and 2 more boss level heroes is a great step.
    Also a suggestion for the Frosty maps, or at least Frosty's Castle. If you want to stick to heroes only in that map, perhaps put a couple neutral heroes right next to each keepers heart, and put a 1x3 hero gate nearby that brings in small, weak random hero parties. Also start everyone off with like a 3x3 prison and 1x3 torture room. It would be trickier, but also allow the level to still play as a hero only one, also would make you care more about your troops since once that gate runs out of spawns, that is all your getting.

    Another suggestion if you wanna play a twist on Frosty's Castle, change the mercenary portals to normal portals, up the heroes in the castle, and do like they did in King of the Hill. First one to kill the Very well protected Prince or other boss hero in the middle wins. That would play interestingly, put a high priority on the Prince to see the AI or other players play the normal way, or/and watch them all attack the castle and slowly try and get to the Prince and kill him. I remember seeing a level in Skarok's Drarak campaign that did such. When the AI worked, it was a fun but brutal level.
    Last edited by Shonji; November 15th, 2013 at 21:22. Reason: Fixed

  5. #45
    Mapmaker Skarok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shonji View Post
    That would be a sight to see, the King and like 40 heroes coming at you, forcing you to throw everything you have at him plus a ton of traps or watch as you get torn apart easily.
    Trust me, I've played Rex' concept of the final battle with the king and it was absolutely brutal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shonji View Post
    I saw the 2 videos of level 6 and look forward to it
    Also notice that the best DKII player in existence was playing!


    Quote Originally Posted by Shonji View Post
    Another suggestion if you wanna play a twist on Frosty's Castle, change the mercenary portals to normal portals, up the heroes in the castle, and do like they did in King of the Hill. First one to kill the Very well protected Prince or other boss hero in the middle wins. That would play interestingly, put a high priority on the Prince to see the AI or other players play the normal way, or/and watch them all attack the castle and slowly try and get to the Prince and kill him. I remember seeing a level in Skarok's Drarak campaign that did such. When the AI worked, it was a fun but brutal level.
    Ah yeah, I remember that part, it was in level 3 I think? I remember being highly annoyed at Blue in my tests when he froze up with his CTA spell, but if both Keepers managed to stay afloat they'd tear the Heroes apart!^^
    There is absoluetly nothing wrong with DK Mobile, whatsoever.

  6. #46
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    I am jealous lol, I want to see that final level!

    Best ehh? Should test that heh.

    Also yeah it was level 3 I believe. The AI is stupid most times, but one time I have no idea if it was just a miracle, but they tore the heroes apart, I think the level only lasted like maybe 10 minutes. Blue made it straight for the inner parts and lost their entire army, but also wiped the heroes out, and Green went in for the kill. I am just sitting there like.........

  7. #47
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    Default Re: The Kasabian Campaign - Episode 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Skarok View Post
    Ah, I see. Figured it must've been something like that. Anyways, depending on how long that'll take you I might have the next update finished anyways, so you'd have a bunch of more fixes for the maps. Just gotta remember what changes I wanted to make, then it should be done fairly fast.


    Also, as an announcement: I scrapped the idea of 3 Aftermath maps and will only do one, which will be fairly long and will play out as a mix of a MPD map, and a normal Campaign one. From the length it'll take at least as long as the normal RBS Campaign mission and will be the last level I'll add to this particular campaign, excluding possible releases of MP Coop maps based on this campaign that i already have lying around. I was also planning of making a walkthrough series of all the maps for people who might have problems with certain missions, or for people who just like to watch DKII videos in general. If anyone's interested, that is.
    This campaign is going to take a long time lol, already lost on level 6, both options....quite a few times. This is what I like DK2 to be, brutal. Looking forward to getting through it, and then seeing how devilish your campaign is. If you said you did a lot more in this one and I loved your previous one, I am really looking forward to it.

    I would watch the walkthrough, watching different strategies and finding out things you might have not known is always entertaining.
    Last edited by Metal Gear Rex; November 16th, 2013 at 19:27. Reason: added quote for context

  8. #48
    Mapmaker Skarok's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Kasabian Campaign - Episode 1

    Ah, I remember 6b. After every successful run back in the testing phase I'd tell Rex that it was still too easy and should be made more difficult while Decagon kept getting destroyed because he wasn't fast enough. Good times.^^ The Keepers in Rex' modified campaign aren't really that hard up until level 11 (Asmodeus can easily be weakened by the Heroes if you help them along a bit). With level 11 you'll start to have a really big challenge, especially with version C. The Keepers in the Kasabian Campaign tend to be even stronger than that, but like in the normal Campaign there's a learning curve here as well, so they probably won't be that difficult in the first few levels for you if you've got experience from level 11. But after the first few levels the pace begins to pick up and they'll prove to be deadly competent foes.

    As for the walkthrough, I guess I could make a recording of one of the many different Citizen Erased levels today to showcase the Campaign and the improved AIs. Depends on whether I'm not too rusty to still win against them.^^
    There is absoluetly nothing wrong with DK Mobile, whatsoever.

  9. #49
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    Default Re: The Kasabian Campaign - Episode 1

    6b was the first hard one so far, After losing like 5 times, I just possessed a mistress and zerged the lotl and pulled him away from his troops while my army distracted them, thankfully he never decided to run so I slowly worn him down with lightning. It took me those 5 tries to figure out I was being too passive and slow, and just decided to rush to his gate and slaughtered him that time. I made a save on 6a, will try that one out after I manage to beat it all.

    level 7 was extremely easy, I love that lava damage is very high now, before you could sit in it all day and still be fine, I simply pulled the lotl deep into the lava and kept him down with lightning, lava made short work of him lol, and I just allowed the blue keeper to live and just smashed him when he lost all his troops from a massive hero attack.

    Currently on level 8, it isn't really hard, but its annoying and slow. Most of the wizards can be killed easily if you timed your lightning with mistress's, and not allow some of them to go deeper in their bases. Only 1 more wizard left and then I hope the lotl opens up. Money is pain in this level, gotta keep pushing and erasing bridges to keep afloat.

    Should be going to 9 soon. I am looking forward to level 11, its my favorite in the vanilla dk2. I don't look forward to 10, I hate that level with a passion, I lost count of how many times that level made me quit dk2 when I was new to dk2. Even now when I beat it easily, I still hate it.

  10. #50
    Mapmaker Skarok's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Kasabian Campaign - Episode 1

    No idea why, but 6b was always pretty easy for me, I managed to set up a beachhead in that final guard post before Ironhelm even started fleeing from his keep.

    In level 7 I actually had to test multiple approaches for Rex, and whilst it's easy to kill off the LotL directly in the beginning or to put him against Gormagon, I found it to be more fun to attack Gormagon directly and fight the Lord in his keep. A shame Rex relocated Gormagon's lair though, it was funny to capture and sell it while he was fighting the Heroes and watch his army fall apart.^^

    In level 8 I remember I usually attacked with my entire army for the two strongest wizards, especially the one in the ring gave me a hell of a time. Funnily enough I actually killed the easiest Wizard last, as I didn’t' find him the first time I tested the map. I think Rex made them all visible from the start in later versions. The gold problem was funny too, the first time around there was way too many gold. It was like everywhere. After that Rex removed almost all of it and I didn't have enough to finish the level. Now it's more reasonable, but I still think it's somewhat of a chore.

    Level 10 I always loved, even when it's really easy once you've got the hang of it. I think it was the only level in the entire DK series that actually took me several attempts to complete it. Level 11 after that was my favorite as well, but even though I liked Rex' more difficult version of it, I just loved the general design of the level in the original. A shame they made the AI's so easy. I made a map that took inspiration from both, the vanilla and Rex' version for my Abaddon Expansion Pack, even though it's a lot more complicated with the whole Objective and interactive alliance system I've got going on. I think I'll make a thread for the demo soon, even though some maps still require some work on the scripts.
    There is absoluetly nothing wrong with DK Mobile, whatsoever.

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