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Thread: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

  
  1. #251
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    That's pretty awesome.

    So how exactly are new creatures to be added / how well can they be modified once a copy is created? I assume it shouldn't impact existing global data, so I should be able to add it to the current patch map without having to redo all the patch modifications.

    Also, big question, are you able to attract the new Goblin through the portal normally, as in no script force attracting?

    I was looking back through the posts on this, and I realized that yes, it's already possible to add the Maiden to 1.3 by adding the 1.7 global data file (and the main .kwd file I think?) to a 1.3 map as you mentioned at some point, provided you also have all the proper 1.7 resources in meshes / engine textures. I believe I tried this before but apparently I was missing the engine textures inside DK2TextureCache, I thought the engine textures.wad was enough. I added her in successfully and have been experimenting with her functionality this morning.

    The Maiden is almost fully functional, but I noticed one particular problem that can't really be overlooked, which is that she won't come through the portal. I set her as the only attractable creature but she refuses to spawn unless I force attract (although she does come out just fine in that case). I'm not sure why. I'm worried this is data inside the executable, unless it's something associated with the Portal room itself.

    In doing this I also simultaneously tested the possibility of adding new Traps / Rooms through the Jack-in-the-Box and Mercenary Portal, which does suggest that new Doors / Keeper Spells might also be possible. I wouldn't personally bother with any of it though as new Rooms I don't think would have any functionality on their own, and one of the unfortunate downsides of 1.3 is there's no scroll functionality for the Keeper Spell / Manufacture tabs ingame, meaning there's a finite amount of space for options. Keeper Spells already runs into space issues from specials, and I'm already hitting the Manufacture tab item limit by changing the Good variants into normal Trap / Door variants. Lastly, new Rooms also gave me problems within the editor with crashing when I went to the room tab. I had to do weird work arounds while experimenting. I needed to have a loader map to load the Maiden's data before loading my actual test map, but I needed to access the room tab in the editor before actually loading the loader map, since that gets around it trying to load the new room inside the room tab and avoiding the crash that way.

    Lastly, I did find a couple interesting things. I tried force attracting a Knight as a separate test and the Knight was able to come out of the portal perfectly fine. Normally in 1.3, all Heroes and the Horned Reaper get stuck at the bottom of the Portal and need to be picked up. This means that there's data in there to fix the attraction of those units so they come out of the portal normally, which would be a very nice quality of life change. I also tried adding Elites and Mercenaries to see if it added their unique skins or not, and it did not. So that data is not in there and is probably in the executable.

    I am still hoping for the possibility of eventually changing the texture resource as I'm sure the elite / mercenary skins could be accessed that way, which would allow for a lot of actually new units. Especially if it's possible to change model scaling.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
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  2. #252
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    That's pretty awesome.

    So how exactly are new creatures to be added / how well can they be modified once a copy is created? I assume it shouldn't impact existing global data, so I should be able to add it to the current patch map without having to redo all the patch modifications.

    Also, big question, are you able to attract the new Goblin through the portal normally, as in no script force attracting?

    I was looking back through the posts on this, and I realized that yes, it's already possible to add the Maiden to 1.3 by adding the 1.7 global data file (and the main .kwd file I think?) to a 1.3 map as you mentioned at some point, provided you also have all the proper 1.7 resources in meshes / engine textures. I believe I tried this before but apparently I was missing the engine textures inside DK2TextureCache, I thought the engine textures.wad was enough. I added her in successfully and have been experimenting with her functionality this morning.

    The Maiden is almost fully functional, but I noticed one particular problem that can't really be overlooked, which is that she won't come through the portal. I set her as the only attractable creature but she refuses to spawn unless I force attract (although she does come out just fine in that case). I'm not sure why. I'm worried this is data inside the executable, unless it's something associated with the Portal room itself.

    In doing this I also simultaneously tested the possibility of adding new Traps / Rooms through the Jack-in-the-Box and Mercenary Portal, which does suggest that new Doors / Keeper Spells might also be possible. I wouldn't personally bother with any of it though as new Rooms I don't think would have any functionality on their own, and one of the unfortunate downsides of 1.3 is there's no scroll functionality for the Keeper Spell / Manufacture tabs ingame, meaning there's a finite amount of space for options. Keeper Spells already runs into space issues from specials, and I'm already hitting the Manufacture tab item limit by changing the Good variants into normal Trap / Door variants. Lastly, new Rooms also gave me problems within the editor with crashing when I went to the room tab. I had to do weird work arounds while experimenting. I needed to have a loader map to load the Maiden's data before loading my actual test map, but I needed to access the room tab in the editor before actually loading the loader map, since that gets around it trying to load the new room inside the room tab and avoiding the crash that way.

    Lastly, I did find a couple interesting things. I tried force attracting a Knight as a separate test and the Knight was able to come out of the portal perfectly fine. Normally in 1.3, all Heroes and the Horned Reaper get stuck at the bottom of the Portal and need to be picked up. This means that there's data in there to fix the attraction of those units so they come out of the portal normally, which would be a very nice quality of life change. I also tried adding Elites and Mercenaries to see if it added their unique skins or not, and it did not. So that data is not in there and is probably in the executable.

    I am still hoping for the possibility of eventually changing the texture resource as I'm sure the elite / mercenary skins could be accessed that way, which would allow for a lot of actually new units. Especially if it's possible to change model scaling.
    You might need to add these to the level files Creature Pool, as well as check that the creature attract perquisites are satisfied. Seems that there might be some physics involved, that could be potentially fixed by the animation offsets in the Creature entries.
    If you want to add new textures to the creatures, that can be done fairly easily. You can copy the existing model (KMF) and just edit it enough to point to a new texture file. Hell, we have new textures in OpenKeeper, you can even use our highres textures in the original DK 2 if the engine can load them. That there is no built in resolution limit, which I doubt, should we fine

  3. #253
    Your Majesty Hapuga's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    I doubt that the attraction is hardcoded in the EXE, as that would completely destroy the data-driven approach. It is possible that that is the case, I am just saying that it is unlikely. I think that portal may have its own properties on how to attract whom, for example, creature portal knows to attract the black knight, and hero portal knows to attract the good knight. So theoretically, this should be customizable at the portal properties.

    Now that you asked, I did play the game and the new goblin did not go through, so at least for now, only the ones spawned/placed manually work.

    I know a sequence of tests that would determine what data portal looks for, I can figure this out soon.

    As for models/anims - they are stored in generic formats that are also known to us. So data-wise, everything is customizable.

    For the future of this tool: I do not feel like writing a full tool as that is time consuming, and I have way too many things on my plate. I will get it to the point where you can add/remove creatures as duplicates that should be fully working through portal (ideally). After that I will probably release the code in public and let anyone else who wants to pick it up continue what I did. I already did most of the work, so others would have to just add interfaces for buttons/menus + parse additional files, like the texture/mesh archives.
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  4. #254
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hapuga View Post
    I doubt that the attraction is hardcoded in the EXE, as that would completely destroy the data-driven approach. It is possible that that is the case, I am just saying that it is unlikely. I think that portal may have its own properties on how to attract whom, for example, creature portal knows to attract the black knight, and hero portal knows to attract the good knight. So theoretically, this should be customizable at the portal properties.

    Now that you asked, I did play the game and the new goblin did not go through, so at least for now, only the ones spawned/placed manually work.

    I know a sequence of tests that would determine what data portal looks for, I can figure this out soon.

    As for models/anims - they are stored in generic formats that are also known to us. So data-wise, everything is customizable.

    For the future of this tool: I do not feel like writing a full tool as that is time consuming, and I have way too many things on my plate. I will get it to the point where you can add/remove creatures as duplicates that should be fully working through portal (ideally). After that I will probably release the code in public and let anyone else who wants to pick it up continue what I did. I already did most of the work, so others would have to just add interfaces for buttons/menus + parse additional files, like the texture/mesh archives.
    It is not in Portal, not in the rooms. In Variables. The creature pool. There are the changes of it coming out. The game UI lets you customize these, but you might still need to have this as basis.

  5. #255
    Your Majesty Hapuga's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    Quote Originally Posted by tonihele View Post
    It is not in Portal, not in the rooms. In Variables. The creature pool. There are the changes of it coming out. The game UI lets you customize these, but you might still need to have this as basis.
    Thanks toni! Well it means that I am jumping into Variables next
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  6. #256
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hapuga View Post
    I doubt that the attraction is hardcoded in the EXE, as that would completely destroy the data-driven approach. It is possible that that is the case, I am just saying that it is unlikely. I think that portal may have its own properties on how to attract whom, for example, creature portal knows to attract the black knight, and hero portal knows to attract the good knight. So theoretically, this should be customizable at the portal properties.
    Quote Originally Posted by tonihele View Post
    It is not in Portal, not in the rooms. In Variables. The creature pool. There are the changes of it coming out. The game UI lets you customize these, but you might still need to have this as basis.
    I think I might also be able to double confirm, although I'm also surprised by it. I've been able to make the Skeleton, Vampire, Horned Reaper and pretty much all the Heroes attractable through the normal creature Portal simply by checking the "Available via Creature Portal" setting. Yet when I try to change the Unique Mistress into a normal creature, it doesn't work. I feel moreso surprised that they made all units possible to obtain through the Portal like that.

    I'm also using what should be a 100% 1.7 map on 1.3, so even the variables should be 1.7. Still no Maiden unless I'm misunderstanding something.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
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  7. #257
    Your Majesty Hapuga's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    "Available via Creature Portal" - Where is that setting? I cannot find it in the editor.
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  8. #258
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    Tick box in Creature. Pro version of the editor. It is stored in the Creature flags.

  9. #259
    Your Majesty Hapuga's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    I see I probably don't have the PRO editor.
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  10. #260
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    You should get it mate, it really opens up the standard editor in a lot of ways. From what I remember it was also a lot more stable than the standard one, added functionalities aside.
    There is absoluetly nothing wrong with DK Mobile, whatsoever.

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