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Thread: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

  
  1. #1
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    Download the Balance Patch for ver. 1.3!

    Notice: The stats on this thread is out of date. For additional information, you can see the change logs for version 3.0 and 3.5.

    This is a demo release of the balance patch, containing complete revisions of the first five levels of the campaign and a 2 Player Multiplayer map. More to come in the future.

    This patch only works for vanilla 1.3 at the moment. It can technically work with 1.51 and probably 1.61, but due to certain changes in those versions, the balance is broken as is the difficulty curve of the patched campaign. I'll be looking into providing an alternative patch for specifically 1.51 and 1.7. (Screw 1.61, that's like a bad middle ground)

    It is recommended that you play at 150% speed. It doesn't hurt not to, but this is the game speed the patch has always been tested under. The pacing of the game seems just right with this game speed, where as other speeds are either too slow or too fast. Still, all references to time (xxx seconds / minutes) will be referring to normal Game Time, which is 100% Speed.

    A thanks goes out to Skarok, Keeper Decagon, Shonji, and NerdyTB for assisting in playtesting at one time or another.

    General Changes

    Creatures (melee)

    Creatures (support)

    Heroes (melee)

    Heroes (support)

    Heroes (boss)

    Creature Spells

    Rooms

    Keeper Spells

    Doors

    Traps

    Last edited by Metal Gear Rex; November 29th, 2014 at 11:24.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

    LOL, WFTO

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    Mapmaker Skarok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    Hey, that's nice! Always prefered DK2, though the balance (especially the black knights) were very badly balanced. For the second campaign I started to make, which was supposed to be like DD, I had to create a weird new balance myself to make the game harde. But I see you gave the hero knight the Heal spell like I did (though I'm sure it wasn't just 'Heal self'). I thought that was a messed up idea.
    I like your idea to nerf the black knight, if someone would spam them now, you'd be able to win with a good combination of supporters and blitzers. Nice that the skeleton is more useful again and has lighting back. (Though it's still a shame that the AI is to stupid to let them die in the prison or convert them. And because there are no ghosts in DK2 he gets nothing mostly. A graveyard is one of the last rooms they build most of the time.) The rest of the units looks also nice, though I wouldn't make the rouge too much weaker than the goblin. If you fix the invisibillity bug and nerf this spell he'll still be very useful, so I don't know how that would exactly look. Hm, we'll see.

    The hero knight with the heal abillity is also a nice idea, though it's very hard to get them down. (At least in the version I made, but I think I made him overall stronger.) Dwarf stayed kinda the same, though he seems like a better fighter now. The guard is nice, I always thought he should have protect and rebound. (I think I gave the normal guard protect and the royal one got something even better. Hm, don't know for sure.) Thief looks nice, the giant seems to be stronger. That's also good. The ellven archer looks also good to me, though you'd had to experiment with the speed a bit. It's hard to stop them from rushing into melee fighters, or flinch fast enough. Monk will be a pain in the ass.^^ The healing abillity is very annoying and makes battles against them harder, making them the perfect trap-slaughterers too.^^
    The fairy should be weaker than most of the heroes, at that point I agree, but I think she should have two abbilities to stop enemies. Maybe replacing hailstorm with slow down? (Don't have all the spells in my mind roght now, though.) You made the LotL kinda like I did, though everytime I edited a map, I made him even stronger in abbilities. Needed some time, until I liked his states. You should play around a bit with that.

    The elite creatures SUCK, SCRAP THEM COMPLETELY!!! >:) Aside from the units, are you also planning on changing the stats of some rooms? And then I'd have a request; if your patch is finished, could I intergrate it into one of my campaigns? Like I said, I tried a patch myself there, but I think it's incredible messed up.

    edit: AND WHERE'S MY PIE!?!?!?!?!?
    Last edited by Skarok; January 23rd, 2012 at 12:10.
    There is absoluetly nothing wrong with DK Mobile, whatsoever.

  3. #3
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    Quote Originally Posted by Skarok View Post
    But I see you gave the hero knight the Heal spell like I did (though I'm sure it wasn't just 'Heal self'). I thought that was a messed up idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skarok View Post
    The hero knight with the heal abillity is also a nice idea, though it's very hard to get them down. (At least in the version I made, but I think I made him overall stronger.)
    The Heal Spell was an idea I took from DK1. He's technically a bit weaker in stats compared to the Black Knight but he doesn't suffer from being stunned as much. (Maybe) However, he's a perfectly good example of how the Heroes are supposed to be stronger than the Creatures. The fact that a standard Hero is comparable to one of The Big Four definitely means something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skarok View Post
    I like your idea to nerf the black knight, if someone would spam them now, you'd be able to win with a good combination of supporters and blitzers.
    A better idea would be to utilize Dark Mistresses and the Lightning Spell. (if fighting defensively) Their stunning support will really tear the Black Knights apart.

    The problem with attempting to spam The Big Four in general is that they train too slowly, leaving the Player vulnerable early on in the game because of a lower leveled army. Their requirement of high Pay will also make it harder for a Player to keep up with them if there's too many especially. This will force him to explore frequently for Gold, which can in return have terrible consequences if he encounters an enemy and his forces are not strong enough to deal with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skarok View Post
    The rest of the units looks also nice, though I wouldn't make the rouge too much weaker than the goblin. If you fix the invisibillity bug and nerf this spell he'll still be very useful, so I don't know how that would exactly look. Hm, we'll see.
    The Goblin is designed to be a fighter while the Rogue is designed to be both a scout and a fighter. At Level 1, Goblins are better. But once the Rogue gets Invisibility (twice), he'll become a better fighter.

    I cannot change the way Invisibility functions. However I can change the effect and recharge time very easily.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skarok View Post
    Dwarf stayed kinda the same, though he seems like a better fighter now.
    He has more Health to strengthen one advantage he has over the Imp, which is simply being harder to kill and thus harder to lose during surprise attacks. Unfortunately, that's not as much of an advantage as it would be in DK1 due to Imps being less valuable in DK2. And I cannot change that at all due to the data that relates to experience from mining to be stored within the Level Variables.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skarok View Post
    The guard is nice, I always thought he should have protect and rebound. (I think I gave the normal guard protect and the royal one got something even better. Hm, don't know for sure.)
    There is no Rebound in DK2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skarok View Post
    the giant seems to be stronger. That's also good.
    He's not going to be the tank he used to be but he'll still possess great offensive power. He also won't be able to manufacture anymore. That was really stupid. DK2 made the Bile Demon and Giants to be counterparts (and effectively ruined the Troll in the process) just because they were both big and therefore stupid, thus the same. It also caused people to compare the two a lot in DK1, despite the fact that they were technically opposites. (Tank and Heavy Hitter)

    Quote Originally Posted by Skarok View Post
    The ellven archer looks also good to me, though you'd had to experiment with the speed a bit. It's hard to stop them from rushing into melee fighters, or flinch fast enough.
    The Elven Archer isn't going to run up in Melee Range.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skarok View Post
    Monk will be a pain in the ass.^^ The healing abillity is very annoying and makes battles against them harder, making them the perfect trap-slaughterers too.^^
    Well he's a Healer. Healers are always annoying in my experience. (Unless they suck)

    Quote Originally Posted by Skarok View Post
    The fairy should be weaker than most of the heroes, at that point I agree, but I think she should have two abbilities to stop enemies. Maybe replacing hailstorm with slow down? (Don't have all the spells in my mind roght now, though.)
    The Fairy's usage is based on her usage in DK1. Fragile and cute but a magical beast in combat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skarok View Post
    You made the LotL kinda like I did, though everytime I edited a map, I made him even stronger in abbilities. Needed some time, until I liked his states. You should play around a bit with that.
    The extra abilities are designed to make the later Lords a more challenging opponent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skarok View Post
    The elite creatures SUCK, SCRAP THEM COMPLETELY!!! >:)
    I did not listen to an unused speech that involved Raksha moaning with pleasure while attempting to search for information relating to the elites just to scrap them.

    I can see you changed your post. But I'll respond to your mention of Kaleb and Zachariah anyways. Kaleb will be slower and more vulnerable to stunning to balance him, and Zachariah has less Disruption meaning he'll charge into Melee sooner, meaning he'll probably get attacked and potentially slaughtered sooner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skarok View Post
    Aside from the units, are you also planning on changing the stats of some rooms?
    If they require change to balance them, then yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skarok View Post
    And then I'd have a request; if your patch is finished, could I intergrate it into one of my campaigns? Like I said, I tried a patch myself there, but I think it's incredible messed up.
    As long as you do not claim it as your own and give proper credit, then that is fine. I'm not making this patch and this thread just so I can refuse to give it to anybody.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skarok View Post
    edit: AND WHERE'S MY PIE!?!?!?!?!?
    I need to release the patch first. Be patient.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

    LOL, WFTO

  4. #4
    Mapmaker Skarok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post

    A better idea would be to utilize Dark Mistresses and the Lightning Spell. (if fighting defensively) Their stunning support will really tear the Black Knights apart.
    Yeah, I meant the dark mistress with blitzers. From what I can remember she was a blitzer class unit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    The problem with attempting to spam The Big Four in general is that they train too slowly, leaving the Player vulnerable early on in the game because of a lower leveled army. Their requirement of high Pay will also make it harder for a Player to keep up with them if there's too many especially. This will force him to explore frequently for Gold, which can in return have terrible consequences if he encounters an enemy and his forces are not strong enough to deal with them.
    That's good. At least the AI will be better off, since they rarely spam one creature type.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    There is no Rebound in DK2.
    I know, I just thought it would fit him. Too bad they took that abillity out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    The Elven Archer isn't going to run up in Melee Range.
    Good luck with that, the creature AI is often really stupid. I cant recall a level where a supporter unit didn't try to run through an army of melee fighters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    The extra abilities are designed to make the later Lords a more challenging opponent.
    Yeah, but I'd also increase his states. Aside from his strength, he's like a normal knight if I recall corectely. Not that challenging.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    I did not listen to an unused speech that involved Raksha moaning with pleasure while attempting to search for information relating to the elites just to scrap them.
    What the hell? You're serious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    I can see you changed your post. But I'll respond to your mention of Kaleb and Zachariah anyways. Kaleb will be slower and more vulnerable to stunning to balance him, and Zachariah has less Disruption meaning he'll charge into Melee sooner, meaning he'll probably get attacked and potentially slaughtered sooner.
    Well, I changed my mind since I hated elites anyways. But that's good then. They just shouldn't be the immortal tanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    If they require change to balance them, then yes.
    Some do, in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    As long as you do not claim it as your own and give proper credit, then that is fine. I'm not making this patch and this thread just so I can refuse to give it to anybody.
    NO CREDIT FOR ANYONE!!!11!oneone!!purple!1!!!1
    Yeah, it's obvious that I'd give you a credit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    I need to release the patch first. Be patient.
    But you're sleeping all the time!!!


    And dungeon keepers are capitalists I noticed. Allied keepers are corporatists. Hmmm....
    There is absoluetly nothing wrong with DK Mobile, whatsoever.

  5. #5
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    Quote Originally Posted by Skarok View Post
    Good luck with that, the creature AI is often really stupid. I cant recall a level where a supporter unit didn't try to run through an army of melee fighters.
    From my experience, units usually don't try and charge through them like that. There are exceptions of course. Such as when a Creature is running because they're scared or Call to Arms has been cast. However, with adjustments to the Fear/Threat values, that won't really be a problem. And I also can change Call to Arms so that Creatures will not ignore enemies as they go. (Or I think I can anyways) Creatures only fight enemies within a 10 square radius of the Flag. How do I know? The Call to Arms spell data has a 10 there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skarok View Post
    Yeah, but I'd also increase his states. Aside from his strength, he's like a normal knight if I recall corectely. Not that challenging.
    But of course. It was really stupid how similar a lot of the Units were statistically.

    Did you know that the highest pay of any Creature (Not including the King) is 750? Also note that the Goblin's Pay is 500...

    Quote Originally Posted by Skarok View Post
    What the hell? You're serious?
    Yes. There's an unused speech with Raksha that says "Oh yes, oh YES! It feels so good to be triumph!" The way she sounds at first makes it sound as if she's moaning in pleasure. And taken out of context (and removing everything after "good") makes it sound horribly wrong. I actually didn't hear it this time around but I have heard it before by surprise. Luckily, nobody else was around at the time or they could have gotten the wrong idea. (Especially considering how loud she says it too, god she's a real screamer I bet)

    Quote Originally Posted by Skarok View Post
    Well, I changed my mind since I hated elites anyways. But that's good then. They just shouldn't be the immortal tanks.
    My attempt with the Elites, as you may have guessed, is to make them uniquely different so that they're worth using or mentioning. They also should be generally a bit stronger/useful but would require more pay/training in return.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

    LOL, WFTO

  6. #6
    Mapmaker Skarok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    From my experience, units usually don't try and charge through them like that. There are exceptions of course. Such as when a Creature is running because they're scared or Call to Arms has been cast. However, with adjustments to the Fear/Threat values, that won't really be a problem.
    Well, I often had the problem that they didn't give a fuck that there were enemies in their way. And they were on the hero side for that, therefore no CTA was used. But I think the fear thing is also a problem. Instead of going backwards and shooting, they just made a few steps backwards or rushed into their enemies. Very bad handled imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    And I also can change Call to Arms so that Creatures will not ignore enemies as they go. (Or I think I can anyways) Creatures only fight enemies within a 10 square radius of the Flag. How do I know? The Call to Arms spell data has a 10 there.
    I think I considered to do that too. I wanted to give it a 200 tile radious, so that it would be like DK1 that every creature would fight enemies in its way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post

    Did you know that the highest pay of any Creature (Not including the King) is 750? Also note that the Goblin's Pay is 500...
    Wow, didn't knew that the pay value was handled that bad. Really, why did they changed things which worked perfectly in DK1?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    Yes. There's an unused speech with Raksha that says "Oh yes, oh YES! It feels so good to be triumph!" The way she sounds at first makes it sound as if she's moaning in pleasure. And taken out of context (and removing everything after "good") makes it sound horribly wrong. I actually didn't hear it this time around but I have heard it before by surprise. Luckily, nobody else was around at the time or they could have gotten the wrong idea. (Especially considering how loud she says it too, god she's a real screamer I bet)
    The hell. Glad they took that out, Raksha had the best voice actor imo (If I think of Nemesis it's hard not to vomit) and such a line would've ruined it.^^ But seriously, someone needs to make these hidden audio files audible ingame. I think there were a lot of mentor lines they simply took out for no reason. (Hell, some jokes are even better than the one's he repeats all the time)

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    My attempt with the Elites, as you may have guessed, is to make them uniquely different so that they're worth using or mentioning. They also should be generally a bit stronger/useful but would require more pay/training in return.
    Yeah, that would be great. I also think there are some mentor lines about the elites, looked like they should already be in the first version of DK2.
    There is absoluetly nothing wrong with DK Mobile, whatsoever.

  7. #7
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    Quote Originally Posted by Skarok View Post
    Well, I often had the problem that they didn't give a fuck that there were enemies in their way. And they were on the hero side for that, therefore no CTA was used. But I think the fear thing is also a problem. Instead of going backwards and shooting, they just made a few steps backwards or rushed into their enemies. Very bad handled imo.
    When Heroes get scared, they literally just stand there because they have nowhere to run. Very bad design. More so the reason to get rid of Fear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skarok View Post
    Wow, didn't knew that the pay value was handled that bad. Really, why did they changed things which worked perfectly in DK1?
    Now do you see yet another reason why a lot of people hate DK2? In this example, it shows how very little the personalities are fleshed out. They're all kind of the same. It's incredibly boring.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skarok View Post
    The hell. Glad they took that out, Raksha had the best voice actor imo (If I think of Nemesis it's hard not to vomit) and such a line would've ruined it.^^ But seriously, someone needs to make these hidden audio files audible ingame. I think there were a lot of mentor lines they simply took out for no reason. (Hell, some jokes are even better than the one's he repeats all the time)
    Thanks to that speech file, we now know more about Raksha's character. Hurray.

    I heard Nemesis' voice again. He sounds... horrible. It was painful, but in return, I won the queen of the Dark Elves, Zenobia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skarok View Post
    Yeah, that would be great. I also think there are some mentor lines about the elites, looked like they should already be in the first version of DK2.
    I know about those. That's why I was listening to the speech files to begin with and why I mentioned Raksha. I know where it mentions every Creature aside from Grubb and Furnace (Though I've heard them before, I believe they're in Level 5 and 11 respectfully, didn't want to go to 11 because of Raksha though) and I also know that Bloz is never mentioned, for some reason.

    DK2 really has a lot of hate for Bile Demons I've noticed. They're most vulnerable to stunning and it prevents them from doing the thing they're designed to do, which is tanking. It's just because they're fat. Always hating on the fat guy.

    And yeah, I know that elites were originally going to be in the first version of DK2. In fact, even with the 1.3 version, the game can handle Elite Units perfectly fine. They just lack the texture. Obviously they were removed so that EA could get more money later on. Dicks.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

    LOL, WFTO

  8. #8
    Mapmaker Skarok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post


    I heard Nemesis' voice again. He sounds... horrible. It was painful, but in return, I won the queen of the Dark Elves, Zenobia.
    Well, it souded like he mastered the art of talking and gurgling at the same time. Or like someone shoved him soap down his throat.
    There is absoluetly nothing wrong with DK Mobile, whatsoever.

  9. #9
    Your Majesty Hapuga's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    Rex, u working with DK 1.7?

    Nooooooo but the AI sucks there so big big time Why wont try those changes on 1.51 or at least 1.3?
    http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/6659/c2warlocki.gif

  10. #10
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch - DK2 with Better Balance (And Pie)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hapuga View Post
    Rex, u working with DK 1.7?

    Nooooooo but the AI sucks there so big big time Why wont try those changes on 1.51 or at least 1.3?
    I planned to be working with both 1.3 and 1.7. At the moment though, I'm forced to work with 1.3 as I cannot find my 1.7 DKII disk. (Or any of my DK1 disks) If I make the changes in an editor for a 1.3 DK2 folder, I believe they can easily be transferred over into the later versions so there's no problem there.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

    LOL, WFTO

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