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Thread: The essence of all creature's battle characteristics

  
  1. #1
    Imp VoidWeaver's Avatar
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    Question The essence of all creature's battle characteristics

    Greetings again.

    I played DK \ DD and other campaign multiple times. However, the all-time acquaintance with the game, I did not find an exact explanation of the real meaning of combat statistics. Rummaging in the forum, I decided to sum up all about stats.

    I. Characteristics.

    1. (Armour) "23.9 Defence - The percentage chance a creature has of avoiding a blow. The higher the number, the greater the chance of avoidance and thus the better the creature’s defense."
    Fixed stat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    Defense value is dodging.
    Well, let's say it is. But if the chance calculated percentage, then 100 (like Knight) and higher Armour\Defence means to avoid damage in 100% of cases. Or am I wrong?


    2. (Luck) "23.11 Luck - The percentage chance a creature has of doing a double attack and a double defense per round of combat. It doesn’t necessarily mean that attacks or defenses are guaranteed to work."
    Fixed stat.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    I'm not totally sure on my own. Here's what indicated in the manual :

    "The percentage chance a creature has of doing a double attack and a double defence per round of combat. It doesn't necessarily mean that attacks or defences are guaranteed to work."

    Here are my guesses :

    A double attack means that the creature may hit two times as a single hit. If the creature is lucky, the game will perform two checks instead of one to see if the creature hits the enemy creature or not. If, in both checks, it's positive, then the creature will cause a double damage. If one of the checks fail, then the creature will only perform a normal attack. If both checks fail, then the creature won't cause any damage.

    As for the double defence, it means that the creature has a double chance of avoiding a hit. If the creature is lucky, then the game will check if he gets hit or not by the enemy creature. If he gets hit by the first check, the game will perform another check. This time, if the second check specifies that creature doesn't get hit, then the creature doesn't suffer at all from the hit. Otherwise, he gets the damage.
    Here I completely agree.


    3. (Strenght) "23.12 Strength - The amount of damage a creature does each time it hits an enemy."
    Leveling to 35% from base value.

    Nuff said.


    4. (Defence) "23.14 Skill - A creature’s ability to perform any given task. The higher the Skill level, the better the creature’s performance."
    Leveling to 35% from base value.

    If I understand correctly, this parameter is a modifier for the inherit table statistics are responsible for tasks such as research and manufacturing.

    For example:

    Samurai

    Basic Stats
    STR: 80
    ARM: 60
    DEX: 90
    DEF (Skill): 70
    LCK: 20

    Skill Levels (Table data):
    Manufacturing: 2
    Research: 2

    Archer

    Basic Stats
    STR: 20
    ARM: 20
    DEX: 100
    DEF (Skill): 60
    LCK: 15

    Skill Levels (Table data):
    Manufacturing: 2
    Research: 2

    From this i can argued that Samurai would research and manufacturing faster than Archer.


    5. (Dexterity) "23.15 Dexterity - A creature’s ability to avoid being harmed by a trap or an enemy’s weapon. The higher the number, the greater the chance of weapon or trap avoidance."
    Leveling to 35% from base value.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    Dexterity is aim of striking.
    This apparent contradiction, and it seems that mistake in the official description. Otherwise, what's the difference between Armour\Defence and Dexterity?

    NOTE:

    "" - Description from manual.
    Leveling to 35% from base value. - Original game rate.
    In-game value name.
    A table value name.

    II. Spell Strength.

    Quality spells things clearly changed with increasing level. I think this is an indisputable fact, but give a couple examples:

    1. For example the "Heal" restore much larger amount HP at high levels than at low ones.
    2. All buffs (such as Speed, Rebound, Armor etc.) lasts much longer at higher levels than at low ones.

    Question. And what actually affects the quality of spells? Just the fact of creature's lvl or any particular characteristic, such as Skill for example?

    P. S.
    Especially I would like to know the DragonsLover, Metal Gear Rex, mefistotelis and Mothrayas opinions about subj. In any case thanks in advance to all for any explanations.
    Sorry for my dire language.
    Last edited by VoidWeaver; March 3rd, 2012 at 22:55. Reason: adding info

  2. #2
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: The essence of all creature's battle characteristics

    I.
    1. Armor: Armor reduces damage taken on hit. It is not related to dodging, and is not to be confused with Defense, which handles dodging. Also, if I recall correctly, it's not a 100% percentage but an 8-bit value (0-255), so having, say, 127 armor would reduce damage to a little more than half what it would be to someone with 0 armor.
    2. Luck defines a chance percentage (0-100). When the creature attacks, there is (value)% chance of doing double damage with a hit. There's also a (value)% chance of reducing damage taken by a hit in half.
    3. Strength: Amount of damage melee attack does. Self explanatory.
    4. Defense: Does not have anything to do with research or manufacturing, contrary to what the game says. Research, training or construction quality is defined by variables that are otherwise not visible during gameplay. Defense handles a chance to dodge a melee strike from the opponent; however, I haven't looked into it much.
    5. Dexterity: Again, the description is wrong. There's no method of avoiding traps, and avoiding enemy weapons is handled by Defense. Dexterity is, like Rex said, aim of striking. Higher dexterity will lead to the character missing less with melee strikes. Like Defense, I haven't looked much into it much.

    II.

    1. Is that so? I recall Heal spell always healing notably smaller percentages in higher levels than lower levels. For example, Level 2 dragon heals about half of its health, and level 9 dragon only about 15%, if my memories are correct. I think Level 10 gives an enhancement to the amount, though. But that's also from old memories.
    2. Again, is that so? In my experience, all buff spells last the same length at every level, except at level 10 where its effect on Speed is reduced significantly due to a bug. (Then again, that may just be because of an overflow, which would prove it does change. I never noticed any difference, though.)

    As for spell quality, I think it either depends on level, or it doesn't change at all. Haven't looked into it, but I've never noticed a significant change in damage of spells of different level casters. Not in the original DK1, anyway.

    The Awakening


  3. #3
    Imp VoidWeaver's Avatar
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    Default Re: The essence of all creature's battle characteristics

    I.

    1. So, if creature has Armor equal 100 and receive 150 damage of any source type (or just only melee?), then creature receives only 50 real damage, right? And In any case damage cannot be less than 1 despite on any Armor quantity?
    2. If i understood previously point correctly, then your explanation about Luck becomes obvious.
    4.\5. I saw values higher than 100 (how in original game, as well in KeeperFX) for both stat. Would not this mean that:
    a) at Defense 100 and higher a creature would always avoid hit?
    b) at Dexterity 100 and above a creature would always strike?
    Or we are talking about the not percentage values and i am dumb again?

    Actually, I would like to see the get hitting and the striking formulas. Perhaps it would simplify a lot.

    II.

    1. Before healing \ After healing

    Dragons
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    It is actual both for KeeperFX as well as for the original game.
    Imho, self explanatory.

    2. It is my fault. I forgot to say that this is true only for KeeperFX, as you already says due 10th lvl spell bug in original game. Just compare Speed duration between imp 3rd lvl and imp 10th lvl. Or between somebody else, i mean couple of other type of creatures.

    3.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    Haven't looked into it, but I've never noticed a significant change in damage of spells of different level casters. Not in the original DK1, anyway.
    Heh, but I checked again and found the opposite. Warlock 4th lvl kills Thief first lvl with two Meteor's hit and Warlock on 10th lvl kills same Thief with one Meteor hit. And this is true not only for the Warlocks. Check yourself if you're interested.

    So the question about strenght of spells is still open. Are there any suggestions or explanations?
    Last edited by VoidWeaver; March 4th, 2012 at 06:18.

  4. #4
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: The essence of all creature's battle characteristics

    Quote Originally Posted by VoidWeaver View Post
    1. So, if creature has Armor equal 100 and receive 150 damage of any source type (or just only melee?), then creature receives only 50 real damage, right? And In any case damage cannot be less than 1 despite on any Armor quantity?
    Actually, the damage would end up being 58/59, depending on whether or not the game rounds up decimals. Damage is reduced by percentage of its base value, not by a fixed value based on the Armor stat itself. An Armor of 100 reduces all damage by 39.0625%. And yes, Armor effects all types of damage and not just damage dealt by Melee Attacks. I have written in my signature the damage absorption for the most basic armor values after I had Moth seek information about the Protect Spell for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by VoidWeaver View Post
    4.\5. I saw values higher than 100 (how in original game, as well in KeeperFX) for both stat. Would not this mean that:
    a) at Defense 100 and higher a creature would always avoid hit?
    b) at Dexterity 100 and above a creature would always strike?
    Or we are talking about the not percentage values and i am dumb again?

    Actually, I would like to see the get hitting and the striking formulas. Perhaps it would simplify a lot.
    I'm unfamiliar with the formula itself but I do know that no Dexterity or Defense value can exceed 255. The formula could be something simple like "Unit Dex - Enemy Def = Hit Chance" or it could be something more complicated like: "((Unit Dex * (256 - Enemy Def)) / 10) - (Enemy Def / 256)"

    Quote Originally Posted by VoidWeaver View Post
    II.

    1. Before healing \ After healing

    Dragons
    lvl 02Attachment 981Attachment 982

    lvl 10Attachment 984Attachment 983

    Warlocks
    lvl 02Attachment 986Attachment 985

    lvl 10Attachment 988Attachment 987

    It is actual both for KeeperFX as well as for the original game.
    Imho, self explanatory.

    2. It is my fault. I forgot to say that this is true only for KeeperFX, as you already says due 10th lvl spell bug in original game. Just compare Speed duration between imp 3rd lvl and imp 10th lvl. Or between somebody else, i mean couple of other type of creatures.
    I can't see those images, but from what I do remember, spells such as Heal, Protect, and Speed (Or maybe just spells like Protect and Speed) had an effect time equal to their Keeper Spell counterpart. The Power Level of the Keeper Spell used depended upon the Creature's Level. So a Level 8 Creature's Speed Effect Time would be the same as a Keeper Speed Casting with the Power Level of 8. (800 Game Turns, AKA 40 Seconds)

    At Level 10, the game looks at either the Level 1 Power Level of the same spell, or the Level 1 Power Level of the Spell right after it, in the order that the spells are written via creature.txt file. I forgot which occurs, actually. In Speed Monster's case, the next Spell would be Protect. Either way, the effect time would be 100 Game Turns, or 5 Seconds rather. That is the Level 10 Speed Glitch.

    Quote Originally Posted by VoidWeaver View Post
    3.

    Heh, but I checked again and found the opposite. Warlock 4th lvl kills Thief first lvl with two Meteor's hit and Warlock on 10th lvl kills same Thief with one Meteor hit. And this is true not only for the Warlocks. Check yourself if you're interested.

    So the question about strenght of spells is still open. Are there any suggestions or explanations?
    Damage increases for Spells by 35% every Level Up, just like normal stats. Meteor with a Level 4 Creature deals 205 Damage while Meteor with a Level 10 Creature deals 415 damage. Thieves only have 250 Health at Base Level, by the way.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
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  5. #5
    Dragon DragonsLover's Avatar
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    Default Re: The essence of all creature's battle characteristics

    Don't thrust the game manual and even some of the strings in game. Some are wrong.

    I.

    I don't know "exactly" if the stats are percent-based or 255-based. The only way to check this out is to look at the KeeperFX source code, but I think MGR explained it best already.
    For Armour, higher is the value, higher is the reduction of damage, but I don't think an Armour of 255 will make the creature invulnerable to hits. I think there's a minimum value of damage allowed, somewhat. The only way to check this out is by testing it yourself.
    For Defence, it's the opposite of Dexterity. Instead of a chance of hitting a target (Dex), it's the chance of avoiding the hit (Def). Forget about what the in-game string says about Skill. It's wrong and has been corrected since in my unofficial patch.
    Same goes for Dexterity. It's really the chance of hitting a target. Nothing more, nothing less. However, there was a bug in the original DK game where a Dexterity going beyond 255 would make it wrap it back to 0.

    II.

    About the spell's strength, it depends on the values stored into the config file. The reason why "Heal" spell heals more at low level than in greater level is because the creature gains more HP when levelling up. BUT, like you and the others said, if you're playing the original version of the game, when the creature is level 10, there's an overflow occurring: the heal's power takes the next spell's price in the creature.cfg file, which is a huge bug. This is also the reason why the Speed spell doesn't last so long once level 10. Same thing occurs with the Armour and Conceal spells. This has been fixed in KeeperFX, and my unofficial patch uses greater values for the Heal spell, but I still need to check this out.

    MGR mostly explained the rest.
    Last edited by DragonsLover; March 5th, 2012 at 22:14.
    I like dragons! They're the center of my life! I'll never forget them...



  6. #6
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: The essence of all creature's battle characteristics

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    or Armour, higher is the value, higher is the reduction of damage, but I don't think an Armour of 255 will make the creature invulnerable to hits. I think there's a minimum value of damage allowed, somewhat.
    Yeah, there's a max armor of 204 (80%). Any higher value will in effect be brought down to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    The only way to check this out is by testing it yourself.
    Or reading KeeperFX source code.

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  7. #7
    Imp VoidWeaver's Avatar
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    Default Re: The essence of all creature's battle characteristics

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    I have written in my signature the damage absorption for the most basic armor values after I had Moth seek information about the Protect Spell for me.
    Actually, I noticed it a long time, but ... decided that this a specificly kind of community humor. :facepalm: :lol: In this case, it all fits together, and at 255 Armour мфдгу we get about 99.6% damage reduction.


    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    spells such as Heal, Protect, and Speed (Or maybe just spells like Protect and Speed) had an effect time equal to their Keeper Spell counterpart. The Power Level of the Keeper Spell used depended upon the Creature's Level. So a Level 8 Creature's Speed Effect Time would be the same as a Keeper Speed Casting with the Power Level of 8. (800 Game Turns, AKA 40 Seconds)

    At Level 10, the game looks at either the Level 1 Power Level of the same spell, or the Level 1 Power Level of the Spell right after it, in the order that the spells are written via creature.txt file. I forgot which occurs, actually. In Speed Monster's case, the next Spell would be Protect. Either way, the effect time would be 100 Game Turns, or 5 Seconds rather. That is the Level 10 Speed Glitch.
    I checked the table data and into the game, and here is possible to add Sight фтв Invisibility, but Rebound and Flight have slightly different duration rate, but the main thing they does not fall down on the 10th level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    Damage increases for Spells by 35% every Level Up, just like normal stats. Meteor with a Level 4 Creature deals 205 Damage while Meteor with a Level 10 Creature deals 415 damage. Thieves only have 250 Health at Base Level, by the way.
    Sounds logical and... fearsome at the same time. That's all explains.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    I think MGR explained it best already.
    Yep, that's right, but anyway thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    The reason why "Heal" spell heals more at low level, then in greater level is because the creature gains more HP when levelling up. BUT, like you and the others said, if you're playing the original version of the game, when the creature is level 10, there's an overflow occurring: the heal's power takes the next spell's price in the creature.cfg file, which is a huge bug. This is also the reason why the Speed spell doesn't last so long once level 10. Same thing occurs with the Armour and Conceal spells. This has been fixed in KeeperFX, and my unofficial patch uses greater values for the Heal spell, but I still need to check this out.
    Hmm, but on this subject you're confuses me now. As I said, and even gave a good example in my previous post, "Heal" contrary to heal much more at the later levels (including the 10th) than at low ones. And yes, in my case it works as in KeeperFX as well in original game. But that's true ONLY for "Heal" spell only. I think we misunderstood each other. As for the 10th lvl spell bug, then that's why I installed KeeperFX, by the way your modification is also good (щnly a skeleton nerfed strongly).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    Yeah, there's a max armor of 204 (80%). Any higher value will in effect be brought down to that.
    Be honest, I doubt you're right, but I can not say for sure. The fact that I recently played on a map "Imps" of PostAK campaign and there was inhabited imps with 255 Armor. They are practically immortal. But the fact checking difficult due a lot of their hp. I'll be very grateful if anyone confirm or disprove the assumption about cap ​​armor value at 204.


    Incidentally, I've discovered that Luck affects the damage of spells too. This is just in case, because on the forum about this kind are not mentioned. And one else. Does anyone know how much and how works gas damage?
    Last edited by VoidWeaver; March 5th, 2012 at 22:40. Reason: grammar

  8. #8
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: The essence of all creature's battle characteristics

    Quote Originally Posted by VoidWeaver View Post
    Be honest, I doubt you're right, but I can not say for sure. The fact that I recently played on a map "Imps" of PostAK campaign and there was inhabited imps with 255 Armor. They are practically immortal. But the fact checking difficult due a lot of their hp. I'll be very grateful if anyone confirm or disprove the assumption about cap ​​armor value at 204.
    Assumption? I didn't assume anything, I confirmed this through KeeperFX's code.

    Look here:

    Code:
    cctrl = creature_control_get_from_thing(thing);
            crstat = creature_stats_get_from_thing(thing);
            if ((cctrl->flgfield_1 & CCFlg_Immortal) == 0)
            {
                // Compute armor value
                carmor = compute_creature_max_armour(crstat->armour,cctrl->explevel);
                if ((cctrl->spell_flags & CSF_Armour) != 0)
                    carmor = (320 * carmor) / 256;
                // This limit makes armor absorb up to 80% of damage, never more
                if (carmor > 204)
                    carmor = 204;
                if (carmor < 0)
                    carmor = 0;
                // Now compute damage
                cdamage = (dmg * (256 - carmor)) / 256;
                if (cdamage <= 0)
                  cdamage = 1;
                // Apply damage to the thing
                thing->health -= cdamage;
                thing->word_17 = 8;
                thing->field_4F |= 0x80;
                // Red palette if the possessed creature is hit very strong
                if (thing->owner != game.neutral_player_num)
                {
                    player = get_player(thing->owner);
                    if (thing_get(player->controlled_thing_idx) == thing)
                    {
                      i = (10 * cdamage) / compute_creature_max_health(crstat->health,cctrl->explevel);
                      if (i > 10)
                      {
                          i = 10;
                      } else
                      if (i <= 0)
                      {
                          i = 1;
                      }
                      PaletteApplyPainToPlayer(player, i);
                    }
                }
            }
    This is part of damage handling code from KeeperFX 0.40 source code. Note the colored part.

    As for the PostAK campaign, the creator probably greatly enhanced the health stat of the imp, making them nearly invincible anyway.

    The Awakening


  9. #9

    Default Re: The essence of all creature's battle characteristics

    I think that Luck influences spell power (for example in an old DK site "Il mondo senza nome di BG" that now doesn't exist anymore (by the way, someone know the site or BG?) it is said that "Fairy's Lightning is the best), but Fairy has 40 of luck, and also Dragons' Meteor seems more powerful that Avatar's one (in KeeperFX 0,40 with dragonslover patch) and the dragon has more luck of Avatar... Do you agree with me?

  10. #10
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: The essence of all creature's battle characteristics

    Quote Originally Posted by friscmanseby View Post
    I think that Luck influences spell power (for example in an old DK site "Il mondo senza nome di BG" that now doesn't exist anymore (by the way, someone know the site or BG?) it is said that "Fairy's Lightning is the best), but Fairy has 40 of luck, and also Dragons' Meteor seems more powerful that Avatar's one (in KeeperFX 0,40 with dragonslover patch) and the dragon has more luck of Avatar... Do you agree with me?
    Luck does influence spell power but not in the way you think. Luck influences the chance to deal double damage or take half damage, and this includes both spells and melee attacks. But this is only once in a while. The target is the other thing you need to take in consideration. Armor influences how much damage a spell will deal and so if the Dragon is attacking a unit with low armor, then of course it will deal a lot of damage.

    In the case of the Fairy, that's to be expected to draw such a conclusion. Lightning is a multi-hitting attack with a short recharge time. It hits a maximum of 10 times per casting, a max that will pretty much always be reached if the target is still. Additionally, the Fairy has a 16% chance to deal double damage with her 40 Luck, so it's expected that you'll see its effects more frequently.
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