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Thread: Doubts invisibility and sight.

  
  1. #21
    Imp VoidWeaver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Doubts invisibility and sight.

    Well, lets to continue is here.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    When you cast Invisibility then attack or use a spell, you become visible back. Don't forget that, even though the Invisibility spell has finished loading, its duration may not be over. Wait for the Invisibility spell icon to become bright back then cast it again. You should then now be invisible. The same thing applies with the Fly spell.
    Ok, i am understood that system is very long time ago and i agreed with it.


    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    You must wait for the Invisibility spell to reload first and having its duration to end.
    And iam understand that part too, but why?... uhm, i... not agreed with it. And yes, i know about that - "Conceal is a Stealth related ability" oriented on Possession mode primaly, but... why? It is a small but vile condition breaks the whole interesting battle concept. So, the main question, is it possible to bypass this without changing the "ForceVisibility" of other actions?

    Personally, now I see only the following possible scenarios:

    1. Set "ForceVisibility" to 0 for all actions.
    Pros - strong changes, wich are open a new battle concept and allow to realize a full power of Conceal in all mods (possession\on map).
    Cons - most probably, needs full remake for ALL campaigns and maps. This spell will be almost as a cheat in the Possession mode.

    2. Set "ForceVisibility" to 0 only for Invisibility spell.
    Pros - small changes that will provide some variety in the gameplay and will affect Possession mode especially.
    Cons - Conceal is not realize it's full potential and probably some rebalancing must be needed.

    3. Allow creatures to cast Invisibility spell in combat.
    Pros - small changes that will provide minimal variety in the gameplay and will not affect the Possession mode.
    Cons - Conceal is not realize it's full potential.

    4. Don't change anything and stay all as is.
    Pros - not changes - don't rebalancing necessary.
    Cons - Conceal a stay is a very lame spell.

    I am also find some ideas are very interesting and combinative with the others, frex:
    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    You should keep the lose invisibility on attacking. Give it a short duration and short cooldown.
    It could be used defensively. Creatures with low health will cast it, flee and will no longer be attacked because they are invisible. If possible it could even be used by ranged fighters to get out of range of close combat fighters, or close combat fighters to snuggle up to ranged fighters.
    'Remove being primary target' works as well: Creatures with High DPS, low defense will cast it - enemy creatures focus Low DPS, High Defense creature - invisible creature attacks and becomes visible - enemy creatures keep focusing on High Defense creature until it's destroyed.
    If it's the only creature it has little use, it could flee, or it would simply be targeted again once it attacked.
    and this one:
    Quote Originally Posted by Trotim View Post
    I'm confident you'll find a suitable use for it, all I wanna add is that if Conceal becomes useful, Alarm Traps could also gain some usefulness by revealing the triggering creature if it's invisible. Would make two underused things not quite as pathetic.
    That said I wouldn't mind Thief and Ghost getting the innate ability to not be revealed when attacking as well. (I've always given Thieves Conceal at level 2 as they're just a waste of a hero unit space apart from when you convert and train them)
    What are you think about all that? Any suggestions?
    Last edited by VoidWeaver; June 22nd, 2013 at 14:49.

  2. #22
    Dragon DragonsLover's Avatar
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    Default Re: Doubts invisibility and sight.

    Quote Originally Posted by VoidWeaver
    And iam understand that part too, but why?... uhm, i... not agreed with it. And yes, i know about that - "Conceal is a Stealth related ability" oriented on Possession mode primaly, but... why? It is a small but vile condition breaks the whole interesting battle concept. So, the main question, is it possible to bypass this without changing the "ForceVisibility" of other actions?
    Again, it's possible to make the spell to reactivate at the exact time it stops reloading, but keep in mind that it varies from a creature level to another. You can make the spell's reloading time to be the same of the its duration. Just play with the values in both "creature.cfg" and "magic.cfg" files. As for why it is a stealth related ability, well, it is like that actually. You can make creatures to remain invisible, whatever they do, but this can results in overpowered situations with creatures being able to attack enemies without being attacked back. In fact, actually, the way the game works, when an invisible and an enemy visible creatures meet together, battle is engaged between those two creatures, but since the visible creature cannot spot the invisible one, the battle cancels, resulting with another engaging battle immediately after between those two same creatures which is immediately cancelled again, and so on in a constant loop. What I once suggested would be for the attacked visible creature to flee instead of cancelling the battle, but if there would have more creatures, each of them would flee one after the other if they cannot spot the invisible one unless a creature can spot the invisible one or the spell takes end.

    About the ideas, the first one by YourMaster can be done. I'm not sure if it would work properly for ranged fighters though. are already that way and it would make them extremely powerful if they can pummel enemy creatures with without being seen. As fpr Trotim idea, it surely can be done with a bit of coding, but how would you make it to work? If a bunch of invisible minions cross the alarm trap, would it affect only the creature triggering it or the whole bunch?

    Something problematic would be for the first person usage. It would become overpowered for a possessed invisible minion to reach the enemy heart and destroy it without being seen at all, causing levels to be easily and pathetically done, unless you make first person attacks to cause the creature to be visible back, but that would be pointless because once you reach the enemy heart, you would simply have to cancel possession.

    So, as you can see, it's not as easy as it may seem. Something has to be done, true, but without breaking the balance.
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  3. #23
    KeeperFX Author mefistotelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Doubts invisibility and sight.

    I just changed how ForceVisibility works in KeeperFX, to what I think was original intention of the authors:

    ForceVisibility is now amount of game turns during which the creature is visible after using an instance.

    This means creature can now be visible for a few seconds after hitting an enemy; as long as it won't continue fighting, it will become invisible again.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Doubts invisibility and sight.

    Great!
    This can have some huge changes to gameplay,... also see this topic about the conceal spell,...

    It used to be completely useless, but now may be useful again. Warlocks with invisibility for example may now cast the occasional spell against strong opponents, flee, turn invisible and lose their fear and attack again. I wonder how long the different spells will force visibility.

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